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The Spirit of the game

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Post by Maverick Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:30 pm

Following from something D4S mentioned in the alignment thread. Thought i'd open this up to all to discuss on a new thread instead of it getting lost in another one.

What do you deem to be "within the spirit of the game"?

Why is it so important to some, surely as long as your playing within the rules thats enough isn't it?

(Note i'm not saying I agree with the spirit of the game nor am I saying I disagree, in fact i'm going to have a think what it means to me whilst this is discussed)

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Post by drive4show Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:37 pm

Good thread Mav.

Maybe it can be split into two scenarios, matchplay and strokeplay. In strokeplay, you are playing against the rest of the field so you are very much dictated to regarding what you can and can't do. In matchplay, you are only playing against your opponent so there is a bit more leeway, for example the option of conceding putts.

Or maybe it is a bit more complex with things like equipment (long putters, ball markings etc) all coming into the equation?

I don't know, maybe I'll need to have a good long hard think about it as well......

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:06 pm

Good thread. Going to be different for different folks I suspect. For me, things like GPS/laser range finders are not in the ethereal spirit of the game (SotG)(although I'm sure I could be convinced they're OK...). Nor are belly/broom handle putters.

Matchplay stuff like jangling coins etc etc are so far out of the SotG I'm as likely to lamp the perpetrator as ignore it but it isn't against the Rules as such as far as I know.

I'd also have good etiquette as part of the SotG. I have a low threshold for people who don't pay due attention to the fact that a course is used by others as well as themselves.

Sure there's a lot more that'd fall under a discussion of this sort of thing...
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Post by Doon the Water Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:45 pm

Golf Carts for people who are not infirm of very elderly.
Drinking beer on the course~ spirits out of a flask is OK
Mobile phones GPS etc.

Joking apart

I am very much with NBS in saying people who are unaware of the fact that there are other golfers on the course.

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Post by JAS Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:39 pm

I play to win and I hate losing (in anything, not just golf) but there is a line I just wouldn't cross to win at all costs.

To me if you cant win without honesty and integrity then you cant win...ever!!

Golf is also a gentleman's game so common courtesy and friendliness should be maintained.

If you play with those 2 thoughts in mind you wont stray far from the spirit of the game.

I do think matchplay offers more opportunity to demonstrate the spirit of the game (I'm thinking of Nicklaus conceding a half to Jacklin in the early 70's and of course Payne Stewart conceding to Monty at Brookline). It also however offers some the opportunity to act against the spirit of the game (like half the population of Brookline in 1999)

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Post by George1507 Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:45 pm

It's summed up in an old saying -

'Be a golfer that you yourself would like to play with.'

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Post by oldparwin Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:43 pm

We should all strive to play the game, in the spirit it should be played in IE Play the ball as it lies. Knowing golf etiquette and applying it to your game.

The thing does annoy me is the length of time some people take with their so called pre-shot routines, in football they would be called time wasters, I would like to see a new rule, this would be "Once you have taken a club out of your bag, you have 1 minute to play your shot or incur a 2 shot penalty"

Sorry rant over

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Post by super_realist Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:56 pm

One minute is a fairly long time. I get fed up when people spend ages over the ball. What on earth are they doing.

In general though, if you come off the course and have enjoyed it, then it's likely you have played to the spirit of the game.

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Post by Davie Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:19 pm

oldparwin wrote:"Once you have taken a club out of your bag, you have 1 minute to play your shot or incur a 2 shot penalty"

I'm all for quick play but that idea needs major refinements.

I frequently have a club picked out of my bag and take a few practice swings even if I have to wait 5 minutes for the group in front to putt out.

I like the idea though

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Post by liegerwoods Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:50 pm

the spirit of the game is what its all about for me.

play within the rules. know the rules as best you can. be magnanamous (spelling?) in victory and accept defeat with dignity.

true it means different things for everyone. i had an on course debate with afellow member about this. i decided not to look for my original ball(deep in the gorse) and elected to play my provisional from just off the fairway.....my playing partner suggested i was borderline cheating for not looking for my ball......i finally handed him my rule book from my bag and told him to find the rule i had broken and i would gladly dq myself......he declined....point is he felt it ws in the spirit of the game to look for your ball.

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Post by Maverick Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:47 am

the thing i get annoyed at when people discuss the spirit of the game is when they say you are using the rules to cheat. for example using the rules to your advantage when taking a drop, i've played with a guy that when i was taking a drop told me i was not playing in spirit of the game for using my driver to measure 2 club lengths and then proceeding to use a wedge for my approach shot. in his eyes it should be 2 club lengths using the club selected for the shot not the longest possible club!

why in the rules it states 2 club lengths not what club must be used, and as long as the rules are not broken why is it so frowned upon by some for using them to your advantage. Its certainly not cheating as you have made the drop/decision using the rules of golf!

I think sometimes people get to caught up with perception of what the deem is spirit of the game and often confusing this with what they deem the rules should allow!

Spirit of the game should simply be to, treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, courteous, polite, friendly, non judgemental of people who do play within the rules even if you think its borderline (as there is no actuall borderline its either within the rules or not). Respect as others say your not the only one on the course and always keep up with play. In matchplay I would certainly add keeping all forms of gamesmanship out of the match.

So to summarise for me the spirit of the game is simply 2 things, play to the rules and respect others....

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Post by Doc Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:46 am

Great thread and some very good points made by all OK This subject can be very emotive, but I tend to feel the same way as George, would I have enjoyed playing a round with me today.

The spirit of the game, mmmm different perception for all I think. A good example was a club knockout I entered a couple of years ago. I was drawn against the club president, who is actually a very nice fella, and in fact has become a friend of late. In said match my approach kicked into a greenside bunker, where i very pleasingly played a great shot and got close. He promptly informed me that I had touched the sand on my backswing, so would need a penalty. He was apologetic of course, and I didn't argue about, even though I was sure I hadn't. It played on my mind the rest of the way round.

Playing in a bounce game with the same bloke this year, we were having a good time, and he told me a tale about a club comp' he had played in the week before. It was a doubles match at home, and he was on the green and his partner was short front. One of their opponents was pin high but left of the green. This opponent promptly picked up his putter and proceeded to put from just off the green and it rolled in. Much pumping of fists etc, but the president informed the bloke that he had gone out of turn, and according to the rule book, he was correct. You can imagine the fun they had for the remaining holes ...... As I said earlier he is a great bloke, and he may well have been correct that I had touched the sand, and he may well have been correct about the putting incident, but 'spirit of the game'?

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Post by JAS Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:08 am

Got to be said, I hate people cheating, it annoys me but being falsely accused of cheating when you haven't does come a close second. It also totally destroys the enjoyment of a round when it happens.

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Post by Diggers Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:47 am

It annoys me when people talk of the spirit of the game as if if anyway it should be different to the way they live their lives in general. As far as I can see if you are a tool on the golf course you will be a tool off the golf course. If you are a tool of the course but a saint on it, you are still a tool.

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Post by Mercurio Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:13 am

Great thread.

My primary thought is that the SOTG is factored into the rules when the rules are created so, as long as you're abiding by the rules, you're abiding by the SOTG.

Whilst I say this, that doesn't mean I enjoy picking up people when they infringe rules, but I do find it easy to reconcile when I remember that knowing and adhering to the rules of golf is as fundamental/important to the game of golf as being able to hit straight drives 300+ yards.

So, if I play with any of you in the future and I have to pick you up on a rule, please don't hate me! Hug


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Post by MustPuttBetter Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:36 am

Would golf be a better game without rules?
Just hit the ball in the hole with using the least number of shots. If you can't hit your ball you play again from where your last shot was? Very Happy
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Post by oldparwin Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:21 pm

Mav

I think the rule on 2 clubs lengths should be revised due to the broom handle putters I mean 2 club lengths of this putter is properly 2 1/2 times my driver.

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Post by raycastleunited Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:40 pm

Surely cheating is ok, as long as you get away with it? Works in football.

Whistle

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Post by Maverick Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:42 am

oldparwin wrote:Mav

I think the rule on 2 clubs lengths should be revised due to the broom handle putters I mean 2 club lengths of this putter is properly 2 1/2 times my driver.

Really how is your driver then 15inches!

I can see the point though on using something so long, but then you start getting to point which I dislike in that the only to make that change would be to govern that you drop using the club you play to play as that way unless your going to Putt the ball it takes it out of the equation.

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Post by oldparwin Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:18 pm

My point is mav if I take a penalty drop then it is 2 club lengths from nearest point of relief, if I have a short putter and you have a long putter, then your 2 club lengths could put you in a better position than my 2 club lengths, and that I think would be unfair.

The rules should make the game fair for everyone, this does not allow that

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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:23 pm

You wouldn't use a short putter anyway as your measurement for 2 club lengths, you'd use your driver.

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Post by oldparwin Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:27 pm

Yes but it is a lot shorter than a broom handle putter

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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:30 pm

Yes, but I reckon fewer than 1% of players use a broom handle.

People worry too much about what other players are doing, instead of concentrating on their own game.
A broom handle putter would probably only give an advantage of 3 feet over two driver lengths, is that really worth crying foul over?
If they are having to use 2 club lenghts then it's a penalty shot they are incurring anyway.


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Post by oldparwin Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:33 pm

Well 3ft nearer the fairway could be a big advantage

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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:38 pm

Not if you are in the middle of the fairway with no penalty shots.

In a match situation you could let something like that get to you.
Bottom line is it's in the rules so you have to suck it up and get on with it.

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Post by oldparwin Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:47 pm

Super

You are the one who shouts loudest about old men not wanting to change anything, I am totally disappointed in you, after all the preaching you have done about changing golf, and when something is blatantly wrong you shrug your shoulders and say "suck it up and get on with it"

You have now let the whole of 606 down, we thought you were our shinning light bring change into our dreary world of old men and golf.

Lets hope this fad goes away quickly and you get back to your revolutionary self

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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:57 pm

OP, steady on old boy, If the use of Broom handles were widespread and those gaining advantage from 2 club lengths were beginning to cause a problem in terms of decency for those who have standard lengths then I'd be inclined to agree with you, but it's such a small "issue" that affects so few people that it's nitpicking to a shiversome degree.

I reckon that any "advantage" is gained so seldomly that it barely makes a difference.
How often do you think two players have been in a situation where both have put a drive into the same thickness of trouble and in the same place but one who has a slightly longer putter to the others driver and as a result gains preferential dropping area in which to play the next shot?
I'll bet it hardly ever happens.
Aren't there more important things to change in golf?

Personally, If I were bad enough at putting to justify the length of a broom handle I probably wouldn't use it to measure 2 club lengths, just a personal thing, but I couldn't stop anyone else doing it as it's within the rules.

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Post by jeffkenna Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:59 pm

spirit of the game, 2 up with 3 to play in club foursomes matchplay, opponents 20 feet away for par, i was putting for birdie, partner and i consulted over the putt and when i was pointing out the line i must have touched my putter on the surface of the green (was unaware if i had but i took the guy's word for it) took my putt down to within a few inches meaning they had to hole their 20 footer to keep match going, that's when the other guy informed me that i had touched the green surface with my putter while pointing out the line. a bit sore about the manner in which it was done and for me i would never take a hole in matchplay like that as for me taking a hole in that manner is not in keeping with the spirit of the game. it was a desperation move. we still won but it left a bitter aftertaste.

Earlier in the year in the fourball (I had same partner for both) in a close match on 15th hole, one of our opponents putted in for a 4 (with a shot) my partner had already had a 4 and our opponents mistakenly thought that this halved with their 4 and said "that's fine, still all square". at that point i still had a putt for 3 which i actually needed to get to halve with their 4 due to the shot they had, i could have been a pr£&k and taken the half however i informed them of their mistake and then missed the putt which meant a loss for us. for me that is keeping in the spirit of the game as i would never dream of taking advantage from something like that and i just wish i had been treated as such in our foursomes match above.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:09 pm

The spirit of the game is something that was embedded in the game from the very beginning, through seemingly simple task of overcoming the land to get a small ball in a hole. It is the simplicity of the idea of using only stick and ball to accomplish the massive task of mastering the variety and complexity of nature that forges the spirit and sense of achievement. While doing this you need only follow some simple rules to get the great feeling of having golfed. Should you do something to break from this simple idea you are no doubt departing from the spirit of the game.

A second element of this spirit is the camaraderie you have with the people you have chosen to play with and the desire to maintain there enjoyment of this simple pursuit. They like you know the joys of golfing and conquering the land in a manner which meets the simple criteria of the game. Why would you wish to ruin this great joy for them unless you were not of the mind to embrace the spirit of the game? This willingness to share and maintain the joy of golfing for others may be what keeps the spirit of the game alive.
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:13 pm

Quoting from the Doak editorial again Mac?

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Post by Doon the Water Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:16 pm

Mac
If they were your own words~ well said.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:20 pm

super

No, that is my interpretaion of the spirit of the game. Why must you always reduce discussions to the same old analysis of a point not worth making?
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:35 pm

McLaren wrote:super

No, that is my interpretaion of the spirit of the game. Why must you always reduce discussions to the same old analysis of a point not worth making?

Because normally when you make a point like that, it's usually cut and pasted from Wikipedia, and that sounded a bit too erudite for you.


Last edited by super_realist on Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:35 pm

Why is it that so many of the posters on this board have trouble with rules gestapo, as if everyone you're playing is on a day off from monitoring detention in concentration camps?

I can't imagine suffering the sort of experience jeffkenna describes, for instance.

Can honestly say I've never seen that sort of behaviour playing any sort of golf in the US whether in competition, an evening skins game, a round with my mates or just recreational golf. What's the point.

In competition it's clearly important that rules are observed but going out of one's way to cause trouble as jeff observed? Why would anyone be such a dufus as to do it?

Mac's note is spot on.

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:50 pm

Super

Not sure who you are thinking off but I rarely post stuff from wiki on here.


Kwini

Not to defend what happened to jeff, or even to say the situations are comparable, but with people like brain davis calling fouls on themselves in such high stakes and public situations, is that the example being set for all golfers? I am not sure it is a good thing and do not see that as the spirit of the game.
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:55 pm

Mac, you always sound like a Wikipedia page when you talk about environment, course design, poilitics, social issues etc. Laugh

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Post by McLaren Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:57 pm

Thanks, I take that as a compliment given a wikipedia page is the result of many peoples contributions and the knowledge they hold. And hopefully corrections to innacuracies. I would like to think I am as open minded as a wiki page.
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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:59 pm

Don't be too hasty Mac, Wiki pages are written as if they were FACTS, when in reality, there are many inaccuracies within them on certain subjects.

A wiki page interestingly is not admissible as a credible source in Universities.

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Post by Gareth_NI Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:38 pm

oldparwin wrote:My point is mav if I take a penalty drop then it is 2 club lengths from nearest point of relief, if I have a short putter and you have a long putter, then your 2 club lengths could put you in a better position than my 2 club lengths, and that I think would be unfair.

The rules should make the game fair for everyone, this does not allow that

OPW, I agree with you that the particular rule is in need of updating, the obvious one being that the only club you can use for measuring the lengths being that of the club you are going to play the resulting shot with.

How anyone can think its "more" within SotG to measure with a Driver then play the shot with a lesser lengthed club, than say measuring with a Broom-handled putter is beyeond me tbh, especially given not every driver is of equal length anyway.

Regarding SotG for me personally, playing to [a] the governing bodies rules [b] any local rules, and with good course ettiquette. Biggest annoyance for me is slow play (either playing partners or groups infront) and also folk "forgetting" to replace divots.

However I tend not to let things get to me, If I feel a rule/sotg has been broken/breached I'll subtely bring it to their attention, on occassions where partners/opponents have pleaded innocence I've let it slide not to force arguments, thankfully there haven't been occasions where its went beyond [1] instance.

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Post by SetupDeterminesTheMotion Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:27 pm

oldparwin wrote:Mav

I think the rule on 2 clubs lengths should be revised due to the broom handle putters I mean 2 club lengths of this putter is properly 2 1/2 times my driver.

Am I missing something. The rules clearly state you can't measure club lengths with your Broom Handle Putter...
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Post by Hibbz Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:35 pm

I think that the SOTG is a very very different thing depending on whether you're playing pro golf when it's your job or amateur golf when I'd have thought the main idea was to have a good time.

For Pro golf I'd say anything within the rules is within the SOTG for each individual as it's not really a "game" then anyway.

For us amateurs, is worrying about whether someone else is gaining an advantage by using a longer putter for measuring two club lengths or using a laser device to measure distances really within the spirit of your game?

If winning is the be all and end all, I'm thinking maybe golf is not the sport for you. Especially when you take into account it's not how good you are that affects whether you'll win it's how good you are in comparison to your handicap.

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Post by super_realist Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:42 pm

I think it is within the rules to use a broom handle putter for this, you can even borrow someone elses providing you have fewer than 14 clubs in your bag at the time.


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Post by Eyetoldyouso Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:22 pm

super_realist wrote:I think it is within the rules to use a broom handle putter for this, you can even borrow someone elses providing you have fewer than 14 clubs in your bag at the time.


This is incorrect - see decision 20/2. You are right that you can borrow a club but if you don't carry a broom handle putter you cannot borrow one for this purpose.

oldparwin wrote:My point is mav if I take a penalty drop then it is 2 club lengths from nearest point of relief,


This is incorrect. If you are taking a penalty drop one of the options is to drop the ball within two club lengths of the spot where the ball originally lay NOT from the nearest point of relief. Rule 28.
I think that you are refering to the ball, once dropped, not rolling more than two club lengths after hitting the ground.

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Post by oldparwin Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:53 pm

Eyetoldyouso

You are correct, I was thinking penalty drop and stated free drop(staked tree for example)

But I think my point is valid 2 club lengths with a broom handle putter is nearly 3ft longer than my driver.

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Post by Maverick Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:11 pm

Regarding broomhandled putters being used for a drop and the additional 3feet that maybe gained. 1) if a player is using it for a drop they've already suffered a 2shot penalty, so what really are they really gaining. 2)rejoice in the fact if they are yoir opponent that they hit it so far in the crud they need a long wand for a from of drop. 3) again if they use the big stand feel safe in the fact they clearly are a crap putter and you should beat them.

Oh course I'm being sarcastice with those comments because I really have no issue with anyone using whatever club comes out their bag for a drop. Why? Because if you start getting caught up in their actions and what clubs/putters they use then your clearly not concentrating enough on your own game. But that's just my opinion.

Back to the SotG for a moment, discussed this today with Oldman Mav over a coffee whilst the rest of family mav cooed over new baby mav! (God that was a mouthful).. But he felt the spirit of the game was to always play to the rules, be plite courteous and always try to beat your oppenent whether that be the course in strokeplay or the man in matchplay, but you must do it with honour,respect and humility without ever being cocky or smug. He also said if your the one beaten be magnanimous shake the habd of opponent and buy them a beer. I thought that summed it up very well all I would add to that is never fool yourself into thinking you've mastered it as it will always be the game who wins in the longrun

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Post by Eyetoldyouso Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:29 am

oldparwin wrote:Eyetoldyouso

You are correct, I was thinking penalty drop and stated free drop(staked tree for example)

But I think my point is valid 2 club lengths with a broom handle putter is nearly 3ft longer than my driver.

Sorry but again this is incorrect. Free drop is one club length from nearest point of relief.
Not sure about the length of your driver. Broom handle putters are about 48 - 51" long; the average driver is 44.5", so two club lengths would be about 8 - 12" longer.

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Post by oldshanker Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:40 pm

To me, this sums up the spirit, not just of this game, but any game.


If - Rudyard Kipling

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

Very Happy
oldshanker
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Post by twoeightnine Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:21 pm

jeffkenna wrote:spirit of the game, 2 up with 3 to play in club foursomes matchplay, opponents 20 feet away for par, i was putting for birdie, partner and i consulted over the putt and when i was pointing out the line i must have touched my putter on the surface of the green (was unaware if i had but i took the guy's word for it) took my putt down to within a few inches meaning they had to hole their 20 footer to keep match going, that's when the other guy informed me that i had touched the green surface with my putter while pointing out the line. a bit sore about the manner in which it was done and for me i would never take a hole in matchplay like that as for me taking a hole in that manner is not in keeping with the spirit of the game. it was a desperation move. we still won but it left a bitter aftertaste.

Earlier in the year in the fourball (I had same partner for both) in a close match on 15th hole, one of our opponents putted in for a 4 (with a shot) my partner had already had a 4 and our opponents mistakenly thought that this halved with their 4 and said "that's fine, still all square". at that point i still had a putt for 3 which i actually needed to get to halve with their 4 due to the shot they had, i could have been a pr£&k and taken the half however i informed them of their mistake and then missed the putt which meant a loss for us. for me that is keeping in the spirit of the game as i would never dream of taking advantage from something like that and i just wish i had been treated as such in our foursomes match above.

I've experienced both of these. One when I was a new member and playing with my father. I touched the green although it was the line of where to aim, not where the ball would go. They let me go but made a big thing of it. Then one of them knocked a leaf off with his practice swing and just picked up his ball. We told him to put it back but he made a big thing of rules are rules.

The second was on a recent trip with friends. All very competitive but I had thought more relaxed. I was down 5, my partner was down 6 net 5 and they were lying 5 net 4 and about 15 feet away each. My partner mistakenly said he was down net 4 so they agreed it was our hole. One picked up and the other drained his mucking around. When we reached the next tee they questioned it and we realised the mistake. We offered the half as that was the best they could have got and one of them got his but they pushed the forfeit of hole. I know they were right but it was an honest mistake and given pressure they would probably have missed both putts for a loss.

I guess in this case it just felt wrong and I like to think that I would have accepted the half. What was the line above? Treat people as you would like to be treated. Obviously I am still bitter as we halved the match!

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Post by super_realist Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:39 pm

You have to ask how sad a person can be to take a pairs matchplay so seriously.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:40 pm

i played a 36 hole stableford with friends recently in france, we play for a cup , its quite a big deal to us, and do it twice a year- i was 6 down and 6 to play- i got to 1 up with 1 to play. and the 18th(par 5) had ob stakes all the way down the left side of the hole- i hit an iron for safety and my then just hit a 5 iron which i hit a fat-( the guy who was 1 behind played 3 good shots on the green to about 20 foot)- i had a 4 iron still in to the green- i have hit it left hard- its 50/50 wether its ob or not- i go down there and it was on the 13th tee- but past the last white stake- so we i asked the guys- 'what do you think' we can only play by the course surely- i tried to ask some french guys on the tee if it was ob- but they just blanked me. in the end the others said its not clear so play on. i hit it to 30 foot and holed the putt for par- and the guy how was 1 behind had a 20 footer for birrdie- he missed and i felt really deflated in my win thinking i had done something wrong- in the end we asked the pro- he told us that there was no ob down the 18th thats why it stopped short of the end of the hole- it was only for the 13th so people would stop hitting it on the 18th to make the hole easier!!

anyway you live and you learn- read the back of the score card- and if you dont know the language learn it.

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