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Alain 'Colm Pierre' Rolland - Was he neutral?

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Alain 'Colm Pierre' Rolland - Was he neutral?

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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:00 pm

Was it right that a half Irish half Frenchman was put in charge of a RWC semi final between Wales and France seeing as Wales dumped Ireland out of the RWC?

Was he neutral? or was there some jiggery pokery going on.
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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:08 pm

Hmmm, tough one that.

Red Card was correct.

However he made a few errors in Wales' favour through the rest of the match - in the scrum in particular, as well as the penalty Halfpenny missed
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Post by Mickado Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:10 pm

Was he neutral? Yes.
Did he make some mistakes? Yes.
Was he correct to give the red card? Yes.

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Post by RubyGuby Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:10 pm

He was neutral, he just made a mistake - Move on thumbsup

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Post by Ozzy3213 Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:10 pm

The man is Irish. He represented Ireland at rugby, he is affiliated as a referee to Ireland.

Get over it.
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Post by iso Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:12 pm

There does not seem to be an option stating "this is old news, I have moved on, what's done is done, I accept the decision and accept that the IRB has backed the decision, Well done France on reaching the Final, I seem to be more mature than the creator of this poll"

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:12 pm

Of course he was neutral.

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Post by eirebilly Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:13 pm

Really Hersh? You can do better than this, surely
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Post by Guest Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:14 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:Hmmm, tough one that.

Red Card was correct.

However he made a few errors in Wales' favour through the rest of the match - in the scrum in particular, as well as the penalty Halfpenny missed
Very Happy

I agree. He made the correct decision with the red card and then seemed to favour Wales.

Still, France went through so we probably don't need an inquiry. The French have been very forgiving about decisions against them.

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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:16 pm

Ask any player past and present and they'll say he got it wrong.

But I didn't expect anything different from the great rugby brains on 606v2. thumbsup
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Post by whocares Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:17 pm

dear mods

would it be possible to create a section dedicated to Allain Rolland, Warburton red card and similar related issues?
so that whenever I go into the international section there might be some posts about other rugby topics...
many thanks in advance
yours,

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Post by RubyGuby Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:17 pm

thumbsup

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Post by RubyGuby Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:18 pm

whocares wrote:dear mods

would it be possible to create a section dedicated to Allain Rolland, Warburton red card and similar related issues?
so that whenever I go into the international section there might be some posts about other rugby topics...
many thanks in advance
yours,

Great idea, can we all just move on now please there's a couple of games coming up thumbsup

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Post by Eclipse Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:22 pm

As a Welsman I have no doubt that he was neutral. The IRB are at fault for putting him in the position where his neutrality could be questioned. It was the same when Nigel Owens was in charge of Samoa v South Africa. A little common sense would go a long way in the IRB.

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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:22 pm

HERSH wrote:Ask any player past and present and they'll say he got it wrong.

But I didn't expect anything different from the great rugby brains on 606v2. thumbsup

Players past and present have shown a shocking lack of understanding of the laws of the game they play.

And how come Cueto was allowed to insult Rolland and bring the game into disrepute? If he was Samoan I'm sure he'd be hauled over the coals.


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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:23 pm

True there are a couple of games one in which the French could be crowned world champions if there play acting continues.

Thank god there is a cool headed Ref in charge of the final this year.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:27 pm

HERSH wrote:Ask any player past and present and they'll say he got it wrong.

Apart from those who have said he got it right.

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Post by Standulstermen Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:30 pm

greybeard wrote:
HERSH wrote:Ask any player past and present and they'll say he got it wrong.

But I didn't expect anything different from the great rugby brains on 606v2. thumbsup

Players past and present have shown a shocking lack of understanding of the laws of the game they play.

And how come Cueto was allowed to insult Rolland and bring the game into disrepute? If he was Samoan I'm sure he'd be hauled over the coals.


Apparently Rob Kearney criticised him aswell.Very disappointing if true. If these guys spent less time on twitter and more time worrying about their own game maybe ireland or england wouldnt have already flew home.

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Post by Davie Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:33 pm

greybeard wrote:And how come Cueto was allowed to insult Rolland and bring the game into disrepute?

What did Cueto say?

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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:34 pm

That Rolland had a shocker, which he did.
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Post by Standulstermen Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:34 pm

Something about him having a shocker and that it wasnt the first time he a ruined a game or such like

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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:34 pm

Davie wrote:
greybeard wrote:And how come Cueto was allowed to insult Rolland and bring the game into disrepute?

What did Cueto say?

Rolland u've had a shocker.... Not the first time either!!! Were not here to watch u....


I've left in all the spelling mistakes...

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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:38 pm

HERSH wrote:That Rolland had a shocker, which he did.

Which is entirely your opinion and not fact. An opinion I rate as just slightly less informed than my snot.

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Post by RubyGuby Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:41 pm

I take my hat off to your snot sir, its enviable, but I'm not green with envy if you know what I mean thumbsup

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:42 pm

Your snot had some interesting views on the ELVs as I remember.

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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:42 pm

Also the opinions of four world cup winning players and legends of the game.


Last edited by HERSH on Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:43 pm

HERSH wrote:Also the opinions of four world cup winning players.

Meaningless.

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Post by rodders Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:44 pm

HERSH wrote:Ask any player past and present and they'll say he got it wrong.

Apart from Robert Jones, Sean Fitzpatrick, Matt Dawson and Michael Lynagh to name a few who've spoken publically about it.

It seems those who think Rolland was right or wrong can roughly be put into two categories: Those who've read the rules and understand them and those who haven't and don't (or don't want to).
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Post by Ozzy3213 Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:50 pm

The thing is Rolland has a French father, and therefore a French sounding name despite having grown up in and representing Ireland. Had it been his mother who was French and his father was Paddy O'Flaherty from Tallaght, and they'd named him Seamus, we would not be having this conversation depsite the fact he would still have had one French parent.

Quite frankly, peoples failure to recognise that he has enforced the rules correctly and was as neutral as any referee in this matter is pretty pathetic and shows a lack of knowledge about the laws of the game.
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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:58 pm

Only Rolland himself will know what was going through his brain at that time, the trouble is that the precedent had been set earlier in the tournament that a dump tackle (spear tackle which this wasn't) will result in a yellow card not a red. Very Happy
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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:01 pm

HERSH wrote:Only Rolland himself will know what was going through his brain at that time, the trouble is that the precedent had been set earlier in the tournament that a dump tackle (spear tackle which this wasn't) will result in a yellow card not a red. Very Happy

A "precedent" that resulted in a citing, a decision that it warranted a red, a player banned and the report specifically stating the ref was wrong.



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Post by Metal Tiger Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:02 pm

I believe he was completely neutral and reffed the game very well.

He may have been a little "letter of the law" for some fans taste but think he got most things right, including the red.
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Post by RubyGuby Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:05 pm

Getting most things right is hardly a glowing endorsement really eh thumbsup

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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:06 pm

Have you ever been to a match where a ref got things 100% right? Considering interpretation is a large part of the refs job that's not possible.

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Post by gilthoniel Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:08 pm

HERSH wrote:Only Rolland himself will know what was going through his brain at that time, the trouble is that the precedent had been set earlier in the tournament that a dump tackle (spear tackle which this wasn't) will result in a yellow card not a red. Very Happy

Another precedent is the red card for F. Fritz from Toulouse, and this time the french were Flip up.

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Post by newbie Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:08 pm

Been reading through the posts and its a valid question considering his father but as has been pointed out he was born and raised in Ireland.

Another interesting thing to note is that in a Toulouse/Wasps HC game earlier this year he sent of Florian Fritz for a similar tackle. Given Toulouse are French that doesnt seem like bias to me.

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Post by newbie Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:09 pm

Snap gilthonial.

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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:14 pm

greybeard wrote:Have you ever been to a match where a ref got things 100% right? Considering interpretation is a large part of the refs job that's not possible.

No and that’s the problem which the IRB need to sort out, because Refs are killing games by their own views of the rules

Go back to the football world cup final De Jong should have been sent off but the Ref understood that this would have killed the biggest game on earth and used his judgment that maybe he just got it wrong, this is what Rolland should have done seeing as he isn't know for being a dirty player and the fact he was the captain.
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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:17 pm

Oh, I'm sorry. I've seen the 2009 directive about straight red cards for those kind of tackles, but I missed the one about how the laws should not be applied if there is a big game.

Do you have a link? Does it specifically mention that red cards are not to be used in world cup knockout stages. I wouldn't want it to be vague.

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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:18 pm

But they weren't applied earlier in the RWC, and thats the problem. Wink
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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:20 pm

That's the problem of the refs who failed to act.

Just because the players involved in those games got away with it at the time doesn't mean their luck overrides the laws of the game. Rolland can't make a bad call just because another ref did.



Last edited by greybeard on Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:22 pm

HERSH wrote:But they weren't applied earlier in the RWC, and thats the problem. Wink

If you can't see that that's bogus logic then there's no hope for you.

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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:23 pm

But the precedent had already been set for the RWC.

Lets not forget that the IRB ruled that O'driscoll wasn't spear tackled during the 2005 Lions tour.
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Post by mrsuperclear Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:24 pm

HERSH wrote:
greybeard wrote:Have you ever been to a match where a ref got things 100% right? Considering interpretation is a large part of the refs job that's not possible.

No and that’s the problem which the IRB need to sort out, because Refs are killing games by their own views of the rules

Go back to the football world cup final De Jong should have been sent off but the Ref understood that this would have killed the biggest game on earth and used his judgment that maybe he just got it wrong, this is what Rolland should have done seeing as he isn't know for being a dirty player and the fact he was the captain.

I think you're giving Howard Webb far too much credit there Hersh. Nigel De Jong bicyle kicked some Spanish lad (was it Xavi or Iniesta?) in the chest like....it was more than two years ago so my memory is a little hazy, but I'm fairly sure Howard Webb didn't see it. Did De Jong even get a yellow card for that? To say that Webb was some sort of genius referee to let that go and Rolland ruined the match is ridiculous to me, especially since Webb didn't even see what happened.

I don't know if you're trying to reel people in Hersh but what does the fact that he's captain and not viewed as a dirty player have to do with it? He committed a dangerous tackle? His captaincy and past is irrelevant, as is the fact it's a semi final. Would you like every player without a murky past to have free rein to commit dangerous tackles? Warburton is a tremendous player, and I doubt he had any intention of causing harm, but he made a mistake and he paid the correct penalty for that mistake.

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Post by rodders Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:25 pm

HERSH wrote:
No and that’s the problem which the IRB need to sort out, because Refs are killing games by their own views of the rules

Go back to the football world cup final De Jong should have been sent off but the Ref understood that this would have killed the biggest game on earth and used his judgment that maybe he just got it wrong, this is what Rolland should have done seeing as he isn't know for being a dirty player and the fact he was the captain.

OK let me get this straight. You think refs are killing the game by using their own judgement BUT you want refs to use their own judgement?

You want consistancy BUT you want the referee to take into account the occaision and the player involved previous reputation and playing ability and status within their team into account?

Headscratch
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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:25 pm

HERSH wrote:But the precedent had already been set for the RWC.

Lets not forget that the IRB ruled that O'driscoll wasn't spear tackled during the 2005 Lions tour.

And the law was duly ammended.

Are you being deliberately ignorant, or do you actually not know any of this?


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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:26 pm

But the precedent had already been set for the RWC.
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Post by SubsBench Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:28 pm

As a Welshman i do not believe that he had a good game but I believe he was neutral and the red card was the correct decision. We should have been good enough to win with 14 and nearly were.

Now, lets move on.

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Post by greybeard Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:28 pm

What precedent?

The 2009 directive is all that matters. If a cop lets me off for speeding that's not a precedent, that's me getting away lightly. The next person caught can't use my luck as an excuse.


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Post by HERSH Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:30 pm

In a court of law you could.
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