Alain 'Colm Pierre' Rolland - Was he neutral?

First topic message reminder :

Was it right that a half Irish half Frenchman was put in charge of a RWC semi final between Wales and France seeing as Wales dumped Ireland out of the RWC?

Was he neutral? or was there some jiggery pokery going on.

Its a fine line Dragon. We are encouraged to use common sense as the #1 when refereeing. Problem is that everyone has a different view of common sense.

Anyone can read a book of laws, run alongside play with a whistle and blow it when they see something wrong.

At the minute rugby wouldn't survive a week if referees officiated like that. Every 1-2 phases there would be a penalty, the media would slate the referee for wanting to be the centre of attention.

I agree inconsistency is a problem but we need a viable means of resolving it.

Ospreydragon wrote:red_stag, One change to the laws should be made immediately, as I suggest: no picking up the player by both legs. I'm sure the IRB have player welfare at heart -- and that would be a good change. All coaches could then instruct their players accordingly.

Yes I like that. Easy to be consistent, easy to coach, easy for players to remember, encourages safe rugby, easy for a referee to spot and it doesn't happen frequently enough to spoil the game.

I like it

Red Stag
And roll on the the overhaul of the laws and their universal application.
Here we are in the middle of our biggest 4 yearly event,and we are spending more energy and attention "argueing" about the rules and their application, when we should be celebrating the rugby.....
All in all I think this has been a fanatastic World Cup.siily me.

"That Dan Carter is playing a bit too well so get one of your players injure him, get sent off and bring on a sub." -- No, that is not the same situation -- unless the player was really devious and fooled everyone, that would the severest penalty for such an offence (so no sub). I am merely asking about levels of sanctions for dangerous play, depending on the tackle (a bit like manslaughter, murder in the 1st degree, murder in the second degree, etc ).

Ospreydragon wrote:greybeard, re: "Too many players are showing a distinct lack of knowledge of the laws." -- that's true. But top players also play the game and they are responding to what they feel is "right", which isn't the same thing as the laws. There's a mismatch between what many people feel was the "right" sanction for that tackle, and what the law/directive states is the right sanction.

This is precisely the problem. They are complaining based on what they think rugby should be, not based on what it is. That's their problem, not rugby's.

Auckland I think its been a fantastic world cup too. I loved the pool stages, there were enough upsets to satisfy the neutrals, the scrum has been resolved beyond belief IMO and the knockouts have been fantastic encounters.

My only gripe is that France and Australia have failed to turn up IMO. Both have been poor.

"That's their problem, not rugby's." -- If incidents like that happen too often, it could put people off the game, because the sense of "fair play" or "justice" doesn't match people's expecattions? The refs are put in the spotlight because of such directives/laws, so the IRB/lawmakers need to be very careful about how they write the laws/directives and the latitude they give to refs.

It may also help if such key directives were explained before the start of tournaments. Who knows, it might also concentrate coaches and players' minds that little bit more because the subject is given far greater visibility. Just a thought.

Should there be a greater emphasis by the IRB in educating the public about the laws of the game?

Commentators have allowed myths like "You have to let him up", "You're allowed to ruck but only backwards", "After 3 collapsed 5m scrums its a penalty try" to fester.

Should IRB create awareness of the laws.

stag.
Interesting that you raise the resolution of the scrums,we all know that subjective element means it can never be perfect, but the WC event brings the whole rugby world together in the one spot at the same time,and that includes the officials,and I cant help but think that it as been a great opportunity for some to realise that there are solutions and alternetives to things like setting/resetting scrums and the improvements have been most noticeable.

Ospreydragon wrote:"That's their problem, not rugby's." -- If incidents like that happen too often, it could put people off the game, because the sense of "fair play" or "justice" doesn't match people's expecattions? The refs are put in the spotlight because of such directives/laws, so the IRB/lawmakers need to be very careful about how they write the laws/directives and the latitude they give to refs.

It may also help if such key directives were explained before the start of tournaments. Who knows, it might also concentrate coaches and players' minds that little bit more because the subject is given far greater visibility. Just a thought.

They were highlighted though Osprey. I cant see what else the IRB could have done as regards dangerous tackles in this tournament. Some of your suggestions for law changes are spot on but had the IRB made changes just before the RWC they would have been crucified

red_stag wrote:Should there be a greater emphasis by the IRB in educating the public about the laws of the game?

Commentators have allowed myths like "You have to let him up", "You're allowed to ruck but only backwards", "After 3 collapsed 5m scrums its a penalty try" to fester.

Should IRB create awareness of the laws.

Any professional journalist, regardless of subject, has a responsibility to educate themselves. It's not that hard, plenty of fans knew the law.

Auckland - on the scrum. sadly for my countrymen I think neither George nor Rolland really crowned themselves in glory at scrum time this RWC.

The biggest improvement I saw at scrumtime was Roman Poite.

"You want consistancy BUT you want the referee to take into account the occaision and the player involved previous reputation and playing ability and status within their team into account?" -- You are right roddersm. I've been teasing out these issues. Humans are a complex lot.

Refs have a lot to deal with Understatement of the year.

How many reds do you see in semi's or finals in top footbal and are they fewer in number because of commercial considerations, I wonder?

Standulstermen, Yes, you're right. But they have time now to re-frame the laws relating to dangerous play, even if they are not introduced for a year or 18 months.

I don't know anything about how contracts with broadcasters are framed, but perhaps the Unions should agree with the IRB that there are standard clauses that require broadcatsers to discuss and explain key laws and changes and directives before the start of tournaments.

Casartelli wrote:Monsieur Rolland was neutral, of course.

He was only guilty of putting his Personal Performance Review above all that is good and noble about the great game of rugby.

Hits like the one Warburton put in have never been red carded before - and are unlikely to be red carded in future (see Kahui on Cooper in the second semi).

Paddy O'Brien's timely directive has wrecked the RWC as a spectacle (NZ will annihilate France in the final) - and its time to move on.

Well spotted Cas... I wasn't sure anyone had noticed that little beauty! - ah, never mind he's public enemy no.1, so we'll ignore it (and guess what? Joubert got the final and everyone was happy)

Isn't it convenient that only certain parts are noticed?

Rolland is generally a good ref, he made a couple of stinker decisions, for both sides (France appeared to be regularly entering the side of a ruck as well as 1/2p unfortunate missed penalty

Joubert sounds like a french name to me...

Jouberts genealogy should be published immediately . Also he looks like one of the actors on allo, allo and if you listen carefully their is the slight touch of a French accent. I bet he has croissants for breakfast.

When speaking to the players during a game doesnt he say 'listen very carefully , i shall say zis only once'

Ospreydragon wrote:"That's their problem, not rugby's." -- If incidents like that happen too often, it could put people off the game, because the sense of "fair play" or "justice" doesn't match people's expecattions? The refs are put in the spotlight because of such directives/laws, so the IRB/lawmakers need to be very careful about how they write the laws/directives and the latitude they give to refs.

It may also help if such key directives were explained before the start of tournaments. Who knows, it might also concentrate coaches and players' minds that little bit more because the subject is given far greater visibility. Just a thought.

Doesn't match Welsh people's expections.

A clear directive was given, the decision was backed up by the governing body. How much fairer or careful can they be? Is that going to put anyone off the game? Maybe a few myopic people in Wales.

The only problem is that the Welsh are giving themselves licence to moan about it for the next for years until some other manufactured controversy arises.

jeas lol imagine an england player made that tackle- it would be on there shame list and the welsh would take every opportunity to call us thugs- lol. we wouldnt even blame the ref either- just accept it.

Huwball wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Monsieur Rolland was neutral, of course.

He was only guilty of putting his Personal Performance Review above all that is good and noble about the great game of rugby.

Hits like the one Warburton put in have never been red carded before - and are unlikely to be red carded in future (see Kahui on Cooper in the second semi).

Paddy O'Brien's timely directive has wrecked the RWC as a spectacle (NZ will annihilate France in the final) - and its time to move on.

Well spotted Cas... I wasn't sure anyone had noticed that little beauty! - ah, never mind he's public enemy no.1, so we'll ignore it (and guess what? Joubert got the final and everyone was happy)

Isn't it convenient that only certain parts are noticed?

Rolland is generally a good ref, he made a couple of stinker decisions, for both sides (France appeared to be regularly entering the side of a ruck as well as 1/2p unfortunate missed penalty

Seriously???!!! You are comparing a fantastic tackle made by Kahui to Warburton's which was clearly a red card - you need to get to the optician quick smart.

The other thing re Warburton that hasn't really been mentioned was that he made exactly the same type of tackle in the QF against Ireland and got lucky that one of the Welsh locks caught the Irish player on the way down and held him up thereby avoiding injury, although technically Warburton could still have got a card as his actions were reckless with disregard to the tackled players safety.

I'm the first to lament Wales not being in the final as it would have made for a far better buildup and spectacle, however the Welsh only have one person to blame and that is Warburton himself who seems to have a tackle technique issue.

Otago, this is precisely the point, there was another infringement that was not picked up by anyone - consistency in refereeing is wanted by everyone, not just showboating for the semi!

The ref in the semi got it right, the refs in the other games got it wrong. That's inconsistent, true, but I fail to see how getting it right is showboating.

He's showboating as his actions in that split second decision (whether right or wrong depending on who you listen to) has resulted in him being spoken about more than the game (which from a Welsh perspective was a great display on how not to kick at goal in rugby).

Back to mr. Hersh's original point, if the IRB had considered the implications of appointing a 1/2 (blood) French referee, we probably wouldn't still be going around in circles.

Let's hope Wales can pick themselves up and do us proud against oz.

How can getting things right be showboating - what you are saying is that anyone who gets anything right in life is showboating. Rolland got the decision right so end of. If everyone else got it wrong then the issue lies with them not Rolland.

Basically Wales need to get over it and if the Welsh fans are going to blame anyone then blame Warburton as he is the guilty party.

I listened to some of Real Radio's sports phone-in show yesterday. Caller after caller was saying it was a disgraceful decision, that Rolland was biased or just plain incompetent, that Wales were robbed. How so many people can ignore the clear fact that Rolland applied the law precisely as he should have done is beyond me. It almost made me ashamed of being Welsh that so many of my countrymen were spouting such rubbish.

Where does the blame lie for defeat? With Warburton for his dangerous tackle; with our goalkickers for missing so many kicks; if you want to go that far, we could blame the players who gave away the penalties that Morgan Parra converted. The one thing that's clear is that Alain Rolland is blameless.

If thats the case then well have to see how long it takes for him to take charge of a game at the MS!

So you are inferring that if he is not appointed to a game in the MS, he is , by extension, guilty of making the wrong decision.

If the IRB are having to stoop so low as to not appoint a ref to a match because of some disgruntled supporters, it is a very worrying trend.

Will Johnathan Kaplan ever be appointed to ref a match in Dublin? Or maybe it's just the Welsh that can behave so irrationally?

Your logic is compelling.

This, of course, being the same iRB who said Rolland got it spot on.

"I honestly believe Alain Rolland made the wrong decision. I think the right decision was a yellow card"


Warren Gatland

Losing coach in disagreeing with the ref SHOCKER!

I not sure but I suspect Gatland knows more about rugby than myself or you greybeard!

"I honestly believe Alain Rolland made the wrong decision. I think the right decision was a yellow card"

He seems like an honest guy, why doubt him?

Because he's emotionally involved. If it had been a French tackler on a Welsh attacker he'd have said it should have been a red.

He is a nice guy, he even coached me once, lovely bloke. Doesn't make him right..

Why would he be emotionally involved, his a Kiwi?

So by your own argument it is very likely that Rolland would have been emotionally involved seeing as his dad would have been at home wearing his French rugby shirt cheering on Les Bleus!

Point proven!

Rolland would have been emotionally involved with this fixture, shame on you IRB.

I don't know if you noticed this, but he's the Welsh coach. I don't know why, probably silly of me, but gosh darn it to shuck I just have this feeling that might have had something to do with him being emotionally involved.

So by your own argument it is very likely that Rolland would have been emotionally involved seeing as his dad would have been at home wearing his French rugby shirt cheering on Les Bleus!

Not at all.

There is a big difference between being involved in the preparation of the team and being an independent arbiter of the laws of the game.

But, of course, as always, you know this and are just pretending to have a vaild point.

Don't you get bored of delighting in being wrong, Hersh?

HERSH wrote:I not sure but I suspect Gatland knows more about rugby than myself or you greybeard!

"I honestly believe Alain Rolland made the wrong decision. I think the right decision was a yellow card"

He seems like an honest guy, why doubt him?

Didn't Gatty say that he would accept that it was the right decision if the citing commission came up with a ban.

It seems he has changed his mind on that one now

I think that would have just won the case greybeard as any jury or judge would have to agree with that.

Although Rolland is Irish his dad is not therefore he has an emotional tie towards the French, it's not his fault most of us would feel the same.

Therefore he wasn't neutral and shouldn't have been in charge, hence a different Ref may have meant a different result.

Wales were hard done by.

Oh my god, it's like going into a battle of wits against an unarmed opponent.

Ha Ha...Hersh noone except you have said Rolland was emotionally involved and in three posts you have managed to try to make it seem like Greybeard also said Rolland was emotionally involved...or even that you know Rollands father was cheering on France....

Slick but ultimately childish attempt.


Battle of wits with an unarmed opponent .

Apparently Rolland was spotted in Wellington that night singing “je ne regrette rien” in karaoke.

Was that before or after attending a late night showing of "Red" with Morgan Freeman?

I don't normally agree with hersh but I think he has a point, the IRB are to blame not Rolland (who I think is one of the top three Refs in the world) there was nothing stopping him taking charge of the other semi, but at the end of the day he was just following the rules, at least he had the bottle to follow them through.

You agree that an Irish ref shouldnt referee Wales and France? Maybe everyone would have been happy if Wayne Barnes had done it or someone like that because there would be no question of bias at all then right?

HERSH wrote:Although Rolland is Irish his dad is not therefore he has an emotional tie towards the French

He could hate his dad for all you know.

Rolland has reffed France betore and apart from the traditional bit of the losing side having a pop there have never been any suggestions that he is anything but impartial.

He is accused of favouring France repeatedly but if that were true his reviews would have meant him losing his elite ref status, it has never happened.

And the French themselves have complained about him because they think he goes out of his way to favour the other team.

Didn’t he send off Florian Fritz for a similar tackle in a HC game between Toulouse and Wasps?

aucklandlaurie wrote: Red Stag
Has the IRB ever been sued for contributing to the personal injury of any player? Its only a question.

I don't know about the IRB. But remember in Australia Jarrod McCracken (ex-NZ RL player) successfully sued the Melbourne Storm, Stephen Kearney and Marcus Bai for loss of earnings after a spear tackle ended his career in the NRL.