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England's Tigers closing ranks in support of MJ

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Irish Londoner
majesticimperialman
maverickmak
robshaw4england
EnglishReign
hawalsh
Bitter Beer
funnyExiledScot
formerly known as Sam
AsLongAsBut100ofUs
bathmad
Geordie
tomathy
21st Century Schizoid Man
Portnoy
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Post by Portnoy Wed 19 Oct 2011, 1:16 pm

Croft and Flood have both reportedly come out in public support of Johnno.

It might have been more impressive had not Manu literally jumped ship.

But is the day of the Tigers' hegemony gone?
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Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man Wed 19 Oct 2011, 2:28 pm

Carling certainly booted Johnson, figuratively speaking, in the nuts.
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Post by tomathy Wed 19 Oct 2011, 3:17 pm

as did the person who is writing the 'independent' review of the world cup performance
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Post by Geordie Wed 19 Oct 2011, 3:56 pm

I have no problem with MJ stopping at all.

But i do have a problem with his coaches....and his selection policies.

So he needs to sack the current ones....Wells etc.

Then maybe have a coach who is a good selector who can help with his decisions.

Otherwise he needs to go.


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Post by bathmad Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:06 pm

It's only Croft saying that. And to be fair, he's got a lot to prove to wear and England shirt again after such a poor WC. Why have Croft when we can have some genuine carriers like Johnson?

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:08 pm

Hands of TJ, we need him at SP, sorry to be selfish Chief

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Post by bathmad Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:09 pm

I'll be starting a Johnson for England campaign then....

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:11 pm

Bathmad Croft was one of the better performers whilst not on top form. Which says something about the overall England performance.

I agree with Geordie, the coaches need freshening up, England have moved forward in the last couple of years and despite a poor RWC we did win the 6N and have got back to back wins over Australia under our belts.

I'm more worried about the state of the RFU anyway.

It's only Croft saying that.

Interview with Flood on the radio this morning he was supportive of Johnno and the way he had tried to get England playing and said the players as a collective should be shouldering more of the blame.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:12 pm

Not just Tigers, Sheridan and Cueto have come out in support of him as well.

All very nice, but hopefully it'll not influence the decision one jot.

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Post by bathmad Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:13 pm

Fair enough, not only Croft....

BUT

Croft is not the right fit at all. He offers nothing going forward, in the tight, or at the breakdown. He mixed it up for the Lions in 2009 and played well, but we need a proper 6, not a wannabe winger!

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Post by Bitter Beer Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:15 pm

bathmad wrote:Fair enough, not only Croft....

BUT

Croft is not the right fit at all. He offers nothing going forward, in the tight, or at the breakdown. He mixed it up for the Lions in 2009 and played well, but we need a proper 6, not a wannabe winger!

Not sure what this has to do with the original article.

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Post by hawalsh Wed 19 Oct 2011, 9:41 pm

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/story/152636.html

the fact is that most Test teams have a head coach who does more coaching than Johnson, and a performance director who keeps an eye on the playing style from the youth sides through to the seniors. There has been no sense with Johnson that he has a strategic view for England's various national sides - and that is important when we can hope or expect Joe Lunachbury, George Ford, Owen Farrell, Christian Wade and others from the Under-20s to start being promoted into England squads in the next 12 months.

Someone needs to step forward with that vision, be it a Stuart Lancaster from the existing set-up, or a performance director

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Post by Portnoy Thu 20 Oct 2011, 9:01 am

Personally I don't care what they do with the management/coaching team (although MJ is less of a concern to me than the coaches).

The only one of coaches I'd be tempted to retain is Rowntree (scrummage).

But I strongly believe that serious discussion of the whole issue is putting the cart before the horse.

What needs to be resolved as a priority is the RFU board - they are the ones that need to gain stability to create budgets, maintain and review management structures, etc. to provide an even keel in the long run.

And it is even more essential to create the look and feel of a stable and competent management board in the run up to 2015 (that'll be the IRB's view).
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Post by EnglishReign Thu 20 Oct 2011, 10:43 am

Youngs was another one backing MJ.

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Post by robshaw4england Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:58 pm

I would be happy for him to stay, if he changes his whole coaching panel. Sack the likes of Wells, Smith, Ford and get in some experienced, high quality coaches who can bring the best out of the English players. I've always been impressed with Stuart Lancaster, who I feel could advise Johnson on selection issues.

Squad Selection is where Johnson gets it wrong. Selecting players such as Flutey and Hape ahead of players like Barritt or Allen. Also selecting Fourie ahead of Robshaw, it makes a mockery of the system, how foreign mercenaries are being selected ahead of young English talent.
Team selection is also an issues, going into the tournament Hartley was seen as one of our best players, only to play second fiddle to the less mobile, less dynamic and less effective Thompson. He also went with Deacon ahead of Lawes!? when the Lawes/Palmer combo was proven to be top quality. Selecting Lewis Moody, despite not being as influential as old, not being as fast, having no attacking game dumfounded me, i don't think he even deserved to be in the squad. Johnson should have put faith in Flood, instead of going with Jonny. England needed a ball playing physical 12, Barritt would have been perfect - but Johnson went with Tindall.

The next England squad should look like this, with faith in young ENGLISH talent.

Corbisiero Marler
Hartley Webber Paice
Cole Stevens
Lawes Attwood
Palmer Deacon
Croft Fearns
Wood Robshaw
Haskell Narraway

Youngs Care Simpson
Flood Cipriani
Banahan Sharples
Barritt Allen
Tuilagi Waldouck
Ashton Armitage
Foden Brown

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Post by maverickmak Thu 20 Oct 2011, 4:17 pm

Would rather we look at Joseph, Trinder or Lowe instead of Waldouck. The Waldouck fad has passed, and he hasn't really been playing to his potential these past couple of seasons.

Not too far off otherwise. Except I would touch Cipriani with a barge pole. I'd be more confident picking Farrell or even Ford!

Plenty of quality young talent coming through. Must utilise it in the coming years.

P.S. Also, Lawes was hardly on top of his game at the World Cup. Certainly not enough to definitely oust Deacon. I see Deacon and Palmer as still our best 2nd row partnership. Lawes still needs to improve his game. He should definitely be used off the bench though, and slowly filtered in to starting.

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Post by majesticimperialman Thu 20 Oct 2011, 5:45 pm

What is Martin Jonsons job any way?

Is he a manager or a coach?

And who is it that picks the team? it Martin Johnson or does Rob Andrew have a role in this.

I personaly would like Martin Johnson to stay in what ever role he does have. But i do think their needs to be a change in his back room staff.

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 20 Oct 2011, 9:44 pm

Hardly a surprise that members of the current team (especially Leicester ones) are going to back the current manager and of course will also back the next one.

Re the Tigers - rumours of their imminent demise may be exaggerated they'll be in the mix towards the end and once it goes to the play-offs anything can happen.

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Post by PJHolybloke Thu 20 Oct 2011, 10:06 pm

Wells and Ford have got to go, MJ may wish to go should that be the case.

The only axe I have to grind with Johnno, is that of all his traits you would expect him to bring to the table, his best (i.e. leadership) has been sadly lacking just now.

To answer the original question Portnoy, I doubt the days of Tiger's influence are gone as far as the England set-up is concerned, Leicester have a very proud tradition of supplying players (and coaches) for the national team, and from the ashes of the WC failure Tuilagi is the only player to do enough to guarantee selection.

As far as hegemony is concerned, maybe there has been an over-reliance on "Leicester people" at a national level, maybe not, maybe they were just the best options?

In any eventuality, if the end result is that the RFU shake up the current management/coaching team and England improve as a result, we'll all be happy.

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Post by Gatts Thu 20 Oct 2011, 10:14 pm

Brand haskellhoff's MSN video blog is quite telling, takes the urine out of the Leicester crew, it was like watching Grease with Haskellhoff and his crew (The Pink Ladies) mocking the Leic T birds.

i realise i have embarassed myself with overtly intimate knowledge of a musical, but when posting about Brand Haskellhoff you are always safe in the knowledge that whatever you say or do , he will DOMINATE on the embarassment front.

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Post by PJHolybloke Thu 20 Oct 2011, 10:33 pm

Shocked I thought Pulp Fiction was a musical....
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Post by radelven Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:06 pm

If I were you I'd be more embarassed about admitting to watching Haskell's video blogs, particularly as a Welshman.

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Post by Gatts Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:10 pm

radelven wrote:If I were you I'd be more embarassed about admitting to watching Haskell's video blogs, particularly as a Welshman.

Yeah fair comment you got me there..but it's like oakey's posts, you want to ignore them but they are usually so full of tripe you can't help but read them.

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Post by DaveM Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:29 pm

I agree with the view that MJ has never really set out a clear vision for how he wants the England side to develop. England have also lacked on field leadership during his time, and he has to take some responsibility for that as he picks the players.

I don't think there is any chance that MJ will agree to sacking the coaching staff, and I think that makes his position untenable. I get the impression MJ doesn't think there is much wrong, and that he'd go into the 6 Nations with the same coaching staff and basically the same players.

I think the RFU (or what's left of them) realise that can't be allowed to happen.

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Post by Gatts Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:36 pm

DaveM wrote:I agree with the view that MJ has never really set out a clear vision for how he wants the England side to develop. England have also lacked on field leadership during his time, and he has to take some responsibility for that as he picks the players.

I don't think there is any chance that MJ will agree to sacking the coaching staff, and I think that makes his position untenable. I get the impression MJ doesn't think there is much wrong, and that he'd go into the 6 Nations with the same coaching staff and basically the same players.

I think the RFU (or what's left of them) realise that can't be allowed to happen.

Yep. It seems to me that if he loses any aspect of control over his coaching team then he will go even with the continued support of the RFU, as you say the coaching team have to go and even though the RFU would keep him in my view the problem is that those RFU backing him may well be on their way out. Its a total mess. Odds on he is thinking i don't need this and will quit before he is constructively dismissed

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