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606v2 Greatest Test All-Rounders Rankings

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Post by Fists of Fury Sun 30 Oct 2011, 8:01 pm

Evening fellas

Your votes on who you believe to be the ten greatest Test all-rounders of all time have been taken into account, and as a result the following official 606v2 cricket rankings have been compiled.

Thanks for voting, the 10 greatest Test wicket-keepers vote will be the next one up in the series.

1. Garfield Sobers
2. Jacques Kallis
3. Imran Khan
4. Keith Miller
5. Ian Botham
6. Kapil Dev
7. Shaun Pollock
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Mike Procter
10= Andrew Flintoff
10= Tony Greig

-----

Richie Benaud and Vinoo Mankad were voted into joint 11th place, for the record.

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Post by Fists of Fury Sun 30 Oct 2011, 8:01 pm

So there we have it, any thoughts on this list? Any surprise inclusions?

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Post by Guest Sun 30 Oct 2011, 8:02 pm

suprised Keith Miller is no4 to be honest.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 30 Oct 2011, 9:18 pm

Fists - thanks for pulling this altogether.

Surprised that Hadlee makes the top ten. An extremely fine bowler but his batting was a long way behind all the others on the list and several not making it.

Disappointed that Miller wasn't higher than fourth - probably hindered by his exploits not being in living memory of many.

No place at all for Eddie Barlow - JDizzle is going to need counselling!

Anyway, no one can complain - we all had the chance to vote and this top ten is what we got!

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Post by Guest Sun 30 Oct 2011, 9:20 pm

Hadlee has to be in there IMO

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Post by Fists of Fury Sun 30 Oct 2011, 9:32 pm

Barlow was 12th, just for yours and jdizzles own sanity, Guildford!

As always, thanks for all the votes and quality discussion guys, I look forward to the next one, wicket-keepers, which will be posted this week.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 30 Oct 2011, 9:39 pm

Thanks, Fists.
I'm sure JDizzle's campaign to get top ten status for Eddie Barlow will continue .... Wink

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Post by JDizzle Mon 31 Oct 2011, 5:24 pm

12th?! Utter disgrace! A Test batting average of 46 and a bowling average of 34 and he gets to 12th! What a joke! I am disowning all the posters on this forum who didn't put him in there top 10. Now where is the foe function... Wink

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 31 Oct 2011, 5:38 pm

JD - an entirely reasonable and highly restrained reaction.

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Post by Guest Mon 31 Oct 2011, 5:57 pm

JD what about the fact there is no Richard Hadlee! He should have been in there.

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 31 Oct 2011, 6:00 pm

Hadlee is 8th, cf.

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Post by Guest Mon 31 Oct 2011, 6:01 pm

my mistake Tumbleweed

i will go away now...

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Post by JDizzle Mon 31 Oct 2011, 6:40 pm

Richard Hadlee? A medium pace pie thrower who didn't know which end of that bat to hold compared to the great Eddie Barlow! king

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 31 Oct 2011, 6:53 pm

JD - you're obviously not too concerned about getting the Kiwi vote .... Very Happy

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Post by JDizzle Mon 31 Oct 2011, 8:53 pm

Not happy with the Kiwis at the moment anyway! I am sure Wales would have beat them in the the final had they got there!

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Post by Stella Mon 31 Oct 2011, 8:59 pm

JD
How many tests did Barlow play?
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Post by JDizzle Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:03 pm

30, Stella. And if you look at how many Graeme Pollock played (only 23) and you see the esteem in which he is held then it doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility that Barlow could be in that list!

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:04 pm

Think we will have to put that particular omission down to lack of knowledge, Jdizzle, which is a shame but always likely to happen with certain players that slip under the radar somewhat.

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Post by JDizzle Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:10 pm

He will be in there at fifth, in my mind! And to be fair, I would never have heard of if I hadn't been coached by him as a kid and my dad explained to me who he was! Whilst we were voting on this msp raised the name of Vinoo Mankad and I could honestly, and quite shamefully, say I had never heard of him until then! It is just good that we have got some quality posters who know about these people, so that we don't forget them.

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:11 pm

I hadn't heard of Mankad, either, and have since done some reading on him. An interesting character, for sure.

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Post by JDizzle Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:15 pm

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eddie-Barlow-Autobiography/dp/0624044637

If anyone does fancy knowing more about Barlow, this is a very good book!

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:36 pm

Blimey, 50 quid for a used book.

Mind you, the price probably reflects the high regard in which Barlow is held.

Could attract a bid from the Corporal once his index linked pension kicks in .... Wink

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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 01 Nov 2011, 4:35 am

Surprised Freddie is in there.

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Post by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 5:00 am

JDizzle wrote:30, Stella. And if you look at how many Graeme Pollock played (only 23) and you see the esteem in which he is held then it doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility that Barlow could be in that list!

30 seems enough, just IMO.
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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Thu 03 Nov 2011, 9:52 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Blimey, 50 quid for a used book.

Mind you, the price probably reflects the high regard in which Barlow is held.

Could attract a bid from the Corporal once his index linked pension kicks in .... Wink

Erm Shocked The monthly rations are more than spoken for by the time meager stocks of gruel are purchased

Guildford - I thought salt was a currency - you must be rolling in it Laugh

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 03 Nov 2011, 11:56 pm

Corporal - I'm sure salt is still a currency in some places but you don't get too much for it in Guildford High Street ....

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Post by msp83 Fri 04 Nov 2011, 1:33 pm

So my campaign for Mankad almost did it, I'd think Hadlee is not good enough a bat to make it ahead of people such as Mankad and Barlow.

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Post by Fists of Fury Fri 04 Nov 2011, 2:22 pm

Almost, msp!

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Post by Leff Sat 12 Nov 2011, 7:11 pm

Flintoff and Grieg are, IMO, the most unworthy candidates on the list.

Flintoff was essentially a bowling allrounder. He was an average bowler and a below-average batsman. For a bowling allrounder, a strike rate of 66 is not impressive.

Flintoff took 5-wickets in an inning just 3 times in 79 tests. Hadlee did it 36 times.

The most remarkable aspect of Flintoff bowling was that his bowling had everything except wicket-taking ability. He showed us that if you keep bowling just short-of-length and on the off-stump or just outside, you can bag about 200 wickets in your lifetime.

Freddie was the most hyped-up bowler in England's test cricket history.

He was a very valuable bowler in ODIs though.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 13 Nov 2011, 1:11 am

Hi Leff - you explain well your thoughtss on Flintoff and why in your view he is not a great test all rounder. I suspect I regard him higher than you but he still doesn't make my top ten. So no major disagreement there.

Hoowever, you also say that Greig is an unworthy candidate but state nothing further to justify that. A few months ago I held the same opinion until the highly esteemed poster Hoggy-Bear argued otherwise and pointed me towards impressive stats in his favour. I now believe a lot of his best performances were overseas and not televised here at the time nor since which meant he didn't get some of the credit he deserved. Anyway, grateful for the reasons as to why you don't rate him highly.

I also note you refer to Hadlee in your post. A tremendous bowler certainly. However, in my view, nothing more than a useful tailender and so not a genuine all ronder. Best, Guildford.

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Post by Leff Sun 13 Nov 2011, 2:24 am

Hi Guildfordbat, I wish to retract my comment about Tony Greig. While commenting on Freddie, my momentary irritation spilled on to Greig.

I suppose one could make a reasonable argument for Greig as a very good allrounder. He averaged 40 with bat and took 141 wickets @32 avg and 69 SR. He scored heavily against India in India as well as in England. Considering India was playing with Prasanna, Chandra, and Bedi during those days, his performances were commendable. As a bowler, he wasn't particularly impressive in Australia, but did very well in India and WI. His best bowling performance was against NZ, which was a stronger team then (with the likes of Glen Turner) than today. Greig was lost to Packer's WSC in 1977; he was Packer's agent that negotiated the departure of top cricketers like Viv Richards to WSC. He was perceived as a villain in England. Unlike the case with Botham and Hadlee, his stats, however, were not somewhat inflated by playing against depleted sides. I would rather not hold his Packer's business dealings against him today and judging purely by his performances, he was an above-average allrounder. He wasn't as quick as Flintoff, but his freakish height made his bowling difficult to negotiate. All in all, I would have to rate him positively.

Regarding Hadlee, one might say he was a 'bowling allrounder' in the mold of Shaun Pollock. As for bowling, there can be no doubt that he was a very very effective bowler (took 5-wickets in an inning 36 times); he was a match winner on his own. When he scored well with the bat, those precious runs were generally scored against strong bowling attacks and came in times of need. On the negative side, he benefitted for a couple of years bowling against teams depleted by migration to WSC.


Last edited by Leff on Mon 14 Nov 2011, 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by GG Mon 14 Nov 2011, 1:33 pm

when is the next one going up fists?

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:41 pm

Tomorrow, GG.

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Post by Stella Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:47 pm

What will the category be, Fists?
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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:56 pm

Wicket-keepers, mate.

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Post by Stella Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:57 pm

That should cause good debate.
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Post by guildfordbat Mon 14 Nov 2011, 6:55 pm

Leff wrote:Hi Guildfordbat, I wish to retract my comment about Tony Greig. While commenting on Freddie, my momentary irritation spilled on to Greig.

I suppose one could make a reasonable argument for Greig as a very good allrounder. .....

Hi Leff - I meant to say yesterday that I appreciated your reappaisal of Tony Greig as above plus the further details you supplied. Best, Guildford

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Post by kwinigolfer Sun 11 Dec 2011, 7:54 pm

Fists,
Just two cents from an old feller:
I never saw him play but old-timers would have had Keith Miller at #2, and Aussie fans would find room for Alan Davidson too.
Proctor would surely have figured higher if he'd've played more Tests, Eddie Barlow too possibly.
Surprised Shaun Pollock is that high.
And there were some very good English all-rounders like Toes Titmus, Illingworth and, for sheer cussedness (not to mention stats), Trevor Bailey.
Not as big a fan of Greig as guildford is, might have chosen him in my top 50, perhaps not. And surprised you young guys haven't got Flintoff higher.

One player that guildford might remember who we'll never know how good he might have been is the West Indian Collie Smith. Came to prominence the same time as Sir Garfield but was tragically killed in an accident with Sobers allegedly driving. Funeral reportedly attended by 60,000 admirers in Jamaica.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 11 Dec 2011, 8:54 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Fists,
Just two cents from an old feller:
I never saw him play but old-timers would have had Keith Miller at #2, and Aussie fans would find room for Alan Davidson too.
Proctor would surely have figured higher if he'd've played more Tests, Eddie Barlow too possibly.
Surprised Shaun Pollock is that high.
And there were some very good English all-rounders like Toes Titmus, Illingworth and, for sheer cussedness (not to mention stats), Trevor Bailey.
Not as big a fan of Greig as guildford is, might have chosen him in my top 50, perhaps not. And surprised you young guys haven't got Flintoff higher.

One player that guildford might remember who we'll never know how good he might have been is the West Indian Collie Smith. Came to prominence the same time as Sir Garfield but was tragically killed in an accident with Sobers allegedly driving. Funeral reportedly attended by 60,000 admirers in Jamaica.

Kwini - probably the most excellent of all your excellent posts today. clap

Likewise, I never saw Nugget Miller play but had him at number 2 in my list based on reports and reading.

Again, in my view, Shaun Pollock has no place in this list.

It was Hoggy and another poster who converted me to such a pro Greig supporter. His test stats are surprisingly (certainly to me) impressive.

When we make our own nominations next year for the 606 v2 Hall of Fame, the late Freddie Titmus will be one of the very first names submitted by me. A tremendous cricketer and even better person.

Any South African test player from the very late 1960s is a god to me so no question about the brilliance of Procter and others. One of our regular posters JDizzle was coached in Wales by Eddie Barlow.

Collie Smith was tragically killed before I started following cricket; to use the Corporal's immortal phrase, I was learning to walk at the time. However, I certainly know of him and that Sobers described Smith as the ''better allrounder'' of the two. Sadly, we will never know for sure. You are definitely right to give him a very honourable mention.

The Corporal now and again makes a comment about Bailey. Interested to see if he adds anything here ....

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Post by kwinigolfer Sun 11 Dec 2011, 9:07 pm

guildford,
Greig fails the acid all-rounder test in my mind. Was he worthy of his place as either batsman. Or bowler? Highly marginal, but perhaps a decent captain. Certainly a legend in his own mind.

Love to hear stories about Keith Miller:
"I'll tell you what pressure is. Pressure is flying at 5,000 feet with a Masserschmidt up your arse."


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Post by Fists of Fury Sun 11 Dec 2011, 9:29 pm

One of the finest quotes of all time, that.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Sun 11 Dec 2011, 9:36 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:guildford,
Greig fails the acid all-rounder test in my mind. Was he worthy of his place as either batsman. Or bowler? Highly marginal, but perhaps a decent captain. Certainly a legend in his own mind.

Love to hear stories about Keith Miller:
"I'll tell you what pressure is. Pressure is flying at 5,000 feet with a Masserschmidt up your arse."


Certainly think Greig was worthy of his place in the team as a batsman

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Post by kwinigolfer Sun 11 Dec 2011, 9:59 pm

Hoggy,
I'm kinda new on the cricket board so I won't be my usual facetious self and say, "For Sussex?"
Just never rated Greig, always felt he was over-hyped by the media, couldn't ever figure out why. But that's why we have opinions. thumbsup

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Sun 11 Dec 2011, 10:21 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Hoggy,
I'm kinda new on the cricket board so I won't be my usual facetious self and say, "For Sussex?"
Just never rated Greig, always felt he was over-hyped by the media, couldn't ever figure out why. But that's why we have opinions. thumbsup

He certainly had a bigger media profile than most players of his time. But I genuinely believe that he was as good a batsman (if not better) than most of his competitors for middle-order berths in the England team.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Sun 11 Dec 2011, 10:31 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:And there were some very good English all-rounders like Toes Titmus, Illingworth and, for sheer cussedness (not to mention stats), Trevor Bailey.
"Toes Titmus" Shocked The inventor of that nickname had a keen sense of humour! Three fine all rounders, tho' not sure that Titmus' batting credentials were massively strong. Bailey I always thought was one of the best summarisers on TMS. Much more interesting than Fred Trueman who used to bang on quite correctly, but very repetitively, about "line and lenth" Broken Record

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon 12 Dec 2011, 12:10 am

Hi Chb,
Agree at Test level, but Freddie had 8 doubles, Bailey eight and Illingworth 6.
I hope that Fists might have a go at Rankings for distinguished cricketers who also excelled at other sports.
Even since WWII we've had the Comptons, Brian Close, Willie Watson, Balderstone, Neale, Hemsley, Arthur Milton (perhaps the best of them all) MJK Smith, Ted Dexter, Cumbes, Jim Standen, Mike Barnard (biased here as I saw Barnard in the first Div 1 footie game I attended, plus the first County cricket game), Jim Gray and all the rest that I've forgotten.
Even Trevor Bailey was a decent footballer.
Yet, I can't think of a single cricketer who's had any success as a pro golfer. Plenty of baseball players though!

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 12 Dec 2011, 9:33 am

Sir Ian Botham also played football, I forget who for (Preston, was it?).

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 12 Dec 2011, 9:39 am

Close-ish, Scunthorpe.

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 12 Dec 2011, 9:44 am

That's the one, thanks.

Being a Villa fan I don't often deal with the lesser sides Wink

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 12 Dec 2011, 9:47 am

Fists of Fury wrote:That's the one, thanks.

Being a Villa fan I don't often deal with the lesser sides Wink

Laugh

guildfordbat

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Join date : 2011-04-07

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