Are you a pro golfer? No... But everyone else is! Apparently...

Let’s face it this is something every single golfer that’s ever held a club is guilty of at some stage of their lives. We all read about the golf swing, the short game, putting etc. We take on board every tip we read whether consciously trying to do so when looking for a fix or subconsciously by virtue of simply reading an article.

Yet tonight simply took me by surprise with how many people that play our game really do believe they either know better than the professionals that are paid to teach this game or they simply know better by way of reading the odd issue of today’s golfer or golf monthly.

I go to the range 3 times a week and always practise with purpose, not necessarily looking to iron out flaws or correct bad habits, for example tonight I went there to work on ball trajectory for those lower penetrating shots, both with the irons off the deck working on a low piercing cut shot that goes under the wind yet thanks to the shape stops relatively quickly. Having worked my way through the bag I set to working on the low fizzing 3wood from the tee a shot I use more in the winter than using a driver.

When one of these Pro (ams) steps up to tell me what I’m doing wrong with my swing. Now as far as he could see I was cutting off my action to early which was resulting in the low trajectory and making me cut the ball, exactly what I was there to work on and was trying to achieve. Rather than telling this nosey Pro (am) what he saw and commented on was what I was trying to do, I indulged him and his teachings. I asked him what should I be doing then to correct this, he listed half a dozen things he’d clearly read in TG and GM. He went onto explain how better players all hit a high ball and did this that and the other. He went on without me probing to say he was an 8 handicapper and regularly gave his mates tips to improve their game blah blah blah, and that if I followed the advice of the tips he gave me one day I too could be a single figure golfer just like him if I worked hard enough....

After listening to Mr 8handicap Pro(am) for roughly about 10 minutes did I point of the flaw’s he thought he’d seen were in fact purposeful moves made to produce the exact shot he saw me playing, he asked why would you want to play that sort of shot on purpose? I simply answered with a question of my own, why would you not want to play a shot that gives you an advantage on the wind? He couldn’t answer and went off with his tail between his legs but he left me with a parting shot of, well I was only trying to help and you won’t get to single figures hitting the ball like that!

After Mr Pro (am) left me to it, I went back about my business but could hear several others giving tips to mates etc. I also noticed that as per usual there was a gathering of Men(more like boys) at the end nearest the shop with 2 of the Pro’s (real pros’) trying to give it the old pals act with some regulars hitting shots and blowing smoke up each other’s rear ends including that of Mr 8 handicapper Pro (am), who was regaling them of the tale of this bloke down the range hitting the low cut shot that wouldn’t listen to him and his advice to improve his game.
It was only as I was walking out one of the actual pro’s who I only know through association of using the facilities down the range asked me I was and how my game was, that I answered maybe you should ask your Pro (am) mate here he clearly thinks he knows it better than me. (I’m not usually rude but the fella had annoyed me)

Not sure why I even created this thread but venting this to the Mrs falls on deaf ears, but one question what is it about Golf that makes so many that play this game think they are qualified to offer advice to complete strangers?

And why is it that many pro’s that work at driving ranges seem so unprofessional in their behaviour and think it’s acceptable to be one of the boys rather than distancing themselves from such laddish behaviour and carrying themselves with grace...

Mercurio wrote:Nothing to add other than I like reading this kind of rubbish.

why you sadist...

<snip>
And why is it that many pro’s that work at driving ranges seem so unprofessional in their behaviour and think it’s acceptable to be one of the boys rather than distancing themselves from such laddish behaviour and carrying themselves with grace...
<snip>

They are probably disappointed with their lot in life and realise they are doomed to forever watching someone else hit range balls out into the fog!

Can't think of a worse way to spend my time than that!

Good rant tho' Mav - I've missed that lately.

nice rant mav.

i got some lessons last year and was told to be less active with my hands. one of the drills was to hit half 7 irons about 75 yds to help me with the feeling at impact. i had some spare time after work so popped to the range, got myself 60 balls and hit 50 half 7 irons and then with the last 10 balls hit full shots. 8 out of the 10 shots were absolutely spot on...2 were Poopie.!

when i gathered my stuff together i could see the guy in the next bay staring at me so i gave him a polite nod and he said to me "what the hell was that mate?..you just wasted about 100 balls hitting a 7 iron 50 yds"

i had never met the guy in my life before but couldnt help myself replying....."you must come here alot mate because youve got those tops and thins down to a fine art....keep it up"

im not normally that sharp!!!!

I had a similar experience a few years ago, at my range, they had employed 2 young Pros's to try and help(take money off mugs who play golf)

I was like you trying out a lot of different shots, when I noticed one of the young Pros's paying a lot of attention to my swing, I then stopped and looked at him, he came over to talk to me, I then started to use my hands, to indicate, I was deaf and dumb, he beat a hasty retreat, and ever since when I go to the range to hit balls no one ever annoys me.

oldparwin wrote:I had a similar experience a few years ago, at my range, they had employed 2 young Pros's to try and help(take money off mugs who play golf)

I was like you trying out a lot of different shots, when I noticed one of the young Pros's paying a lot of attention to my swing, I then stopped and looked at him, he came over to talk to me, I then started to use my hands, to indicate, I was deaf and dumb, he beat a hasty retreat, and ever since when I go to the range to hit balls no one ever annoys me.

Are you?

oldparwin wrote:I had a similar experience a few years ago, at my range, they had employed 2 young Pros's to try and help(take money off mugs who play golf)

I was like you trying out a lot of different shots, when I noticed one of the young Pros's paying a lot of attention to my swing, I then stopped and looked at him, he came over to talk to me, I then started to use my hands, to indicate, I was deaf and dumb, he beat a hasty retreat, and ever since when I go to the range to hit balls no one ever annoys me.

I like the way you roll OP gotta try that one out at somepoint

Just remember not to swear out loud when you hit a bad shot, and no one ever bothers you

oldparwin wrote:Just remember not to swear out loud when you hit a bad shot, and no one ever bothers you

The reason I asked is because my younger sister is deaf and dumb.

I have a brother in law who is, but does not play golf, but he can swear and you can understand every word

Merc:

Just out of interest how does or did that affect the family growing up. Reason I ask is my uncle and 2 of his children on my dads side too are deaf and dumb. When we were growing up my dad tried to teach us to sign but for some reason none of it really stuck with us. Yet he teaches my oldest boy and my middle girl to do it each week teaching them new word and characters and they have picked it up so quickly and often can be seen speaking in sign to my dad rather than using regular speach, normally to get what they want without me knowing. It's really very clever and fascinates me as i couldn't pick it up as a kid

I have tried to sign but fail badly, lucky my brother in law can lip read very well, just have to remember to keep face to face when I talk to him

Maverick wrote:Merc:

Just out of interest how does or did that affect the family growing up. Reason I ask is my uncle and 2 of his children on my dads side too are deaf and dumb. When we were growing up my dad tried to teach us to sign but for some reason none of it really stuck with us. Yet he teaches my oldest boy and my middle girl to do it each week teaching them new word and characters and they have picked it up so quickly and often can be seen speaking in sign to my dad rather than using regular speach, normally to get what they want without me knowing. It's really very clever and fascinates me as i couldn't pick it up as a kid

Sorry, Mav, she's not really.

I was just trying to bag an 'oldparwin'.

oldparwin wrote:I have tried to sign but fail badly, lucky my brother in law can lip read very well, just have to remember to keep face to face when I talk to him

Thats what I do with my uncle and 2 cousins OP. Yet my dad and my 2 kiddies can talk to them in sign no issues. Fascinating as I never picked it up, nor my brother or sister or mavette, yet ,y other 2 no issues at all picked it up straight away

merc you just failed

Merc shame on you

In all honesty no apologies needed, people take things far too seriously and often my dad and his brother make jokes about not be able to hear or speak, best one is when his mrs has the hump he is blissfully unaware and she knows nothing she can say or do to make it bother him.

Back to the original thread a moment, just thought, next time I see Mr Pro (am) may ask him for a round and playing lesson

mav
Yes my brother in law makes the most of it down the pub when it comes to his round, he is either signing with some mates or pretends he does not know its his corner, and if I say anything, then wife up in arms, so some nights he drinks free of charge.

On the flip side I bet you often proffer advice to pals on their swing etc.
Also, we are all very receptive to advice proffered from other pals. I've picked up such bad habits from pals who are low handicappers (everyone is unique) and had lesson recently from pro, then decided to listen to only him.

We are all guilty of doing so with no qual's or expertise to proffer that advice. However,that's what makes golf such fun and why so addictive.
I also bet if sat with Jim Furyk many of us would say "your swing is weird and wrong" but how good is he and successful is that swing?

Imagine golf without all that!

Noel

Thats why I like being left on my own on the driving range, so I can work out what works for me, and how I can hone it into my game.

No 2 pros's swing the golf club the same, but they know what works for them, and thats all I want to do at the range, find out what works for me.

Most Pros's unfortunatley have to make money, and thats what I think is a conflict of interest between a golfer trying to work out what suits him and a pro looking to cash in.

Noel wrote:On the flip side I bet you often proffer advice to pals on their swing etc.
Also, we are all very receptive to advice proffered from other pals. I've picked up such bad habits from pals who are low handicappers (everyone is unique) and had lesson recently from pro, then decided to listen to only him.

We are all guilty of doing so with no qual's or expertise to proffer that advice. However,that's what makes golf such fun and why so addictive.
I also bet if sat with Jim Furyk many of us would say "your swing is weird and wrong" but how good is he and successful is that swing?

Imagine golf without all that!

Actually thats one thing I don't do is offer swing advice.The only swing I comment on is my dads swing and thats only because I know it better than anyone and only then when he asks me to look at it. I make a conscious effort not to pass judgement on anyones swing or offer tips this is mainly because I think a swing should be unique to the individual and that i'm not qualified to pass judgement, Heck one of my mates a scratch player has a swing resembling a baboon swinging a rattlesnake yet it works for him. The only part of the game i'd offer advice on if aske is the short game. Even on here I only asnwer tips questions with how i'd play the shot not how I think it should be played.

That said my old man and many of my mates are like you say too often offering up advice to each other when most times you'd find there is no swing flaw they simply are having a bad day or their timings off.

I like OP, do like to be in a part of the range on my own to work through my own swing, 9/10 its back to basics, grip, alignment, posture, pre-shot routine and once these are in place everything else is simples and slots into place. I'd even be willing to bet 9/10 swings could be improved by addressing these simple fundamentals rather than being rebuilt as some pro's seem intent on doing with all their students

However One thing you do mention which I whole heartedly agree with is that people are seeking lessons then they should only listen to their pro's they get lessons from otherwise its too much wrong information and becomes ingrained as bad habits

I have a mate who is like this, the trouble is he is a terrible golfer! He plays over 150 times during our season and still does really break 90. The last few times we've played he hasn't broken 100.

He is always tinkering with his swing, trying that one tip that makes so much difference. The truth is he is so inconsistent that there wasn't anything to fix it was just timing or he actually played well the previous time.

You can't talk to him about his game otherwise you get a lecture on what happened and what he's doing to fix it. He is also the swing analyser so after watching him carve one into the cabbage he comes back and tells you exactly what happened and and what he needs to do to fix it. Listening to all this does without shadow of a doubt cost you shots. Sometimes I deliberately don't watch so I don't have to tell him what happened or having to answer the question about what went wrong.

Occasionally I wil tell him if he is sliding his hips rather than turning so I am guilty of the wannabe teacher pro syndrome. However,and I realise I have been rambling a little bit, he tries to tell you what your problems or flaws are. He will also boast of how he fixed someone's swing when they were playing badly. His one main comment is you were too fast from the top. Now my friends, yes I do have others, and I have no idea what this means. It is now the in joke; mess a shot up, turn round to the group and say damn I as too fast from the top.

Strangely i do feel better after this rant. Thank you for listening.

Very restrained Mav, I think I would have been tempted to give him twenty pence and tell him to phone someone who gave a toss.

Maybe these are pleasant, well meaning people trying to be helpful. Sometimes it's easy for someone else to see what you can't see yourself.

I doubt they'll continue to be pleasant after they've been the butt of some sledgehammer wit a few times.

I find it staggering that he couldn't see that you clearly knew what you were doing with a club. Unfortunately, driving ranges are full of idiots like this which turns me off using them.

Congrats on being so restrained. Must have been very tempting to unleash a torrent of abuse in his direction...

George1507 wrote:Maybe these are pleasant, well meaning people trying to be helpful. Sometimes it's easy for someone else to see what you can't see yourself.

I doubt they'll continue to be pleasant after they've been the butt of some sledgehammer wit a few times.

I agree it's difficult to see some of the problems in your own game, such as I always get a mate to point out when i'm not following through enough on putts or if the ball is too far back/forward in my stance, but there's a big difference between that and a busy body knowitall or (know nothing as it seems) interupting your session.

Even as an 8 handicapper he should be able to see that someone with the skills of a +1 player doesn't need the advice of what is relatively a chopper by comparison, especially one who knows nothing of Mav's game.

Very restrained Mav, I think I would have been tempted to give him twenty pence and tell him to phone someone who gave a toss.

Not usually so restrained but I was in one of those moods where I found it more amusing to let him play his part as the village idiot know it all type..

Maybe these are pleasant, well meaning people trying to be helpful. Sometimes it's easy for someone else to see what you can't see yourself.

Agreed it's easy for someone else to see where you going wrong but only when asked should they pass comment and when your intentionally working on something which they should be able to see makes it worse.

I find it staggering that he couldn't see that you clearly knew what you were doing with a club. Unfortunately, driving ranges are full of idiots like this which turns me off using them.

Congrats on being so restrained. Must have been very tempting to unleash a torrent of abuse in his direction...

I think he could only see the fact he wanted to make himself look full or urine and importance in front of his pals and not someone intentionally working on something that works in the wind.

Not usually so restrained the torrent of abuse would usually have flowed like wine at the last supper, but he caught me on a good day, found it even more hilarious that he couldn't work out why you would want to play a low shot into the wind!

I've found myself laughing out loud upon overhearing people at the range, proclaiming to have the perfect grip etc.
It's the playground of Billy bull

Exercised some restraint not raming your low handicap down the guys throat Mav. Well done!

Tbh I have had two instances in the past when strangers have offered some advice and they both were well meaning, correct and not showing off. One was so simple it did no harm and the other fully warned me to take his advice for what it was worth. Thats when I wasnt playing reguarly at all and had no handicap so perhaps it was easy advice to give. Can totally see how working on little drills and feelings can attract the wannabe pro comments though.

The one time a pro approached me on the range was to offer his help with a lesson. Wasnt trying to be to clever just said he could help. About 5 lessons later he has. Drastically. I think a lot of amateur golfers are over cycnical of pros offering their service. They have had the lessons before, the professional changes something for the better, change feels weird, they play rubbish because they dont practice the change and therefore think the pros are at it. You either accept this or just dont take lessons, being a bit cynical towards the pro shouldnt be the middle ground.

Solid rant Mav . Why do people do this anyway? I wouldn't dream of attempting to give advice on a range unless I was asked.

I'm with S_R(?) as well re. the 8 hcp thing. In fact, if he's giving it the big "I am" anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if he was nowhere near an 8 hcp and simply made it up to sound good. Every genuine 8 I've ever known would be able to see the decent swing mechanics which he so obviously couldn't.

Only thing I would have done different is, while he was there, swap to a driver without a word and blast it out of sight with a nice draw. Or call each shot before I hit it (and then pray they come off!).

Yeah Mav, you should have turned back to the ball and said, "What like this?" Boom! High draw. Opportunity missed!

Wasn't in the mood to indulge him by hitting the shots he thought low handicappers should be hitting, as for shoving my handicap down his neck think i'll save that for another time as no doubt he'll be down there again when I am. May even offer the chance of a round with him see if he can help my game

Top rant Mav, i must admit I like stories like that. I've had it on course before, on holiday, got off to a bit of a bad start (a double with not a single good shot except for the 15 footer that saved a triple). A weak bogey at the next and my playing partner bless him was full of advice. Even suggesting that perhaps the forward tees would be more appropriate for my handicap level (which he hadn't asked and didnt know although his assumption was that I was nowhere near his lofty 12 (I was actually 8 at the time).
At the Par 3 3rd I flushed a 5 iron 190 yards to 3 foot, everything clicked into place and I never dropped another shot on the front 9, holing a bunker shot on 9 for birdie and 2 over at the turn. It was around about the 5 he shut up and on the back 9 was chatting about anything other than golf. Finished with a fairly satisfying 77, 3 under my handicap at the time whilst my expert partner for the day stopped counting around 14 (hey it only holiday golf!!). To be fair, he was a nice enough bloke and having a post round drink he confessed he misjudged me and ended up saying I was a bandit off 8!!

Some people just struggle to grasp the fact that we are born with 2 eyes, 2 ears but only 1 mouth for a reason and engage mouth before eyes and ears have had time to assess!!

It would be funnier to play along with the guy for a while, earn his trust make him really think he's helping you and then take him out on the course and Bang, blow him away, then do a Mac and refuse to go for a pint after the round with him.

SR would it be wrong to ask him to play Skins for that round and relieve him of his beer money so he couldn't go for a pint if he wanted too..

Am actually going to nip back down to the range now, but only because I want to price something up which my mates store isn't stocking currently but if I don't like the price will just order it through my mates shopo and await delivery.

Just out of interest and to add a slightly different slant to this thread, what if the guy who had come up to you Mav (or indeed in any of the examples listed on here) had actually been a pro or say a +5 amateur.
Would that make it alright for him to poke his nose in because he knows what he's talking about, or should everyone really just wait until they are asked before giving out advice however good they are ?

Diggers, if he was +5 I presume he would have A) seen that he was purposely playing that type of shot and B) as a decent player would know not to bother someone at the range whose game you do not know.

Diggers wrote:Just out of interest and to add a slightly different slant to this thread, what if the guy who had come up to you Mav (or indeed in any of the examples listed on here) had actually been a pro or say a +5 amateur.
Would that make it alright for him to poke his nose in because he knows what he's talking about, or should everyone really just wait until they are asked before giving out advice however good they are ?

No diggers imo it wouldn't make it alright even if he has butch harmon. My opinion is noone should offer advice unless it is specifically asked for. So yes people should wait until asked before offering up advice of any sort.

I've lots of friends that are PGA pro's some are very good teachers, others not. But the ones who are the better teachers are the ones that only offer advice when asked for and that to me is how it should be.

super_realist wrote:Diggers, if he was +5 I presume he would have A) seen that he was purposely playing that type of shot and B) as a decent player would know not to bother someone at the range whose game you do not know.

I think you are right about point a, however I think your second point is tosh quite frankly. I know plenty of peopel who are very good at things, it doesnt stop them having a big mouth and sticking their oar in whether wanted or not. In fact quite the contrary a lot of the time.

This thread is utterly depressing.

The message that comes out loud and clear is that none of you will take advice from someone that you consider is an inferior golfer. In fact you regard them with contempt for offering advice.

I appreciate that you may not want to be offered any advice, but to be so scathing about someone who does is just awful.

Diggers, Perhaps it's down to personality then, whether someone is a very good golfer or a complete chopper they should probably know that it isn't good manners to simply barge in and give "advice" (or rather their opinion) where it wasn't asked for.

It would be a bit like me raking through Shane Lowry's shopping trolley and tell him he should be swapping lard for low fat margarine.

George, I don't think people are adverse to taking advice from any particular type of golfer, good or bad, rather that it appears most of us will baulk at advice from anyone when it A) isn't asked for or b) from someone who doesn't know your game or what they are talking about.

That seems pretty clear from the situation Mav described.

As I said earlier I take advice from all levels of ability from people who know my game, but why take advice from a complete stranger who doesn't know your game, can't even tell you are working on a particular type of shot

George1507 wrote:This thread is utterly depressing.

The message that comes out loud and clear is that none of you will take advice from someone that you consider is an inferior golfer. In fact you regard them with contempt for offering advice.

I appreciate that you may not want to be offered any advice, but to be so scathing about someone who does is just awful.

It's called having an opinion, on what we deem is right and when to offer advice, much like any other thread a point that's worth debating in some peoples eyes and in others like yourselves george not.

Also, maybe i'm about to commit forum suicide here, but why would anyone want to take advice from someone when it's not asked for especially when they a) have never met them before so don't know them from adam b) why would a stranger feel it ok to pick holes in someones game he doesn't knwo and c) why would someone presume they are a better player than you just because their offering advice

Diggers, Perhaps it's down to personality then, whether someone is a very good golfer or a complete chopper they should probably know that it isn't good manners to simply barge in and give "advice" (or rather their opinion) where it wasn't asked for.

Well said, don't think I can add anything to that

I do agree that people shouldn't really give advice when it's not asked for but I do also think that it's fair to say most people would also be quite happy to accept some input from a pro (maybe not Mav as he is clearly a v good player with pro mates)
It all depends how it's done and why. If someone is just being matey or (misguidedly helpful) its not the biggest crime in the world.
But I say that as a chopper who takes advice when he can.

Diggers wrote:I do agree that people shouldn't really give advice when it's not asked for but I do also think that it's fair to say most people would also be quite happy to accept some input from a pro (maybe not Mav as he is clearly a v good player with pro mates)
It all depends how it's done and why. If someone is just being matey or (misguidedly helpful) its not the biggest crime in the world.
But I say that as a chopper who takes advice when he can.

Diggers it's not a case that i'm not happy to accept input from anyone Am or Pro. I just don't think anyone should offer advice unless it's asked for. Thats just my opinion though, if I had something going wrong i'd happily askfor advice and have done so on many occaisions.

I agree Diggers, but this guy was clearly being a Billy Bigshot who thought that being an 8 handicapper (wow) meant it gave him some sort of special knowledge and that there was no other way than his way. If you say something like "If you want to be single figures", it's never a good introduction.

One of the best pieces of advice I have received was in putting from a guy who was a complete hacker but a demon on the greens, but he waited until after our game and told me what he had noticed and whether I had ever considered doing it "this way".
There is a way to give advice and a way not too. This 8 handicapper seemed very boorish, and regardless of what his advice was (right or wrong) I'd not appreciate the way in which he did it.

Fair points, clearly the guy was a bit of a div last night.

Maverick wrote:

George1507 wrote:This thread is utterly depressing.

The message that comes out loud and clear is that none of you will take advice from someone that you consider is an inferior golfer. In fact you regard them with contempt for offering advice.

I appreciate that you may not want to be offered any advice, but to be so scathing about someone who does is just awful.

It's called having an opinion, on what we deem is right and when to offer advice, much like any other thread a point that's worth debating in some peoples eyes and in others like yourselves george not.

Also, maybe i'm about to commit forum suicide here, but why would anyone want to take advice from someone when it's not asked for especially when they a) have never met them before so don't know them from adam b) why would a stranger feel it ok to pick holes in someones game he doesn't knwo and c) why would someone presume they are a better player than you just because their offering advice

Couldn't agree more Mav. No matter what standard you might be, to walk up to a complete stranger or even someone you know and start giving them advice is very odd to say the least. They have no idea what you might be working on or if you are coming back from an injury and are restricted in any way.

If it happened to be someone you know surely the polite way to go about it would be to ask what they are working on and if they would like to hear any observations you might have.

Mav, you have probably just got a shocking swing. But dont worry, Ill sort it out when we meet up for a round. All hope is not lost, you too can have a swing like mine.

Cheers digs I'll look forward to the playing lesson can you teach me the high straight shot and the one that duck hooks into the trees 15yards off the tee

I have the perfect solution for practice range advice, it's an app on my phone which allows you to video the swing then you can move it backward and forwards, slo mo/ freeze frame.....the lot. I use it with my mates and rather than tell them what to do I'll film their swing then they can watch it as many times as they like and work it out for themselves.

Bargain at £2.79