Solution to Welsh rugby's problems at club level in the pro era (snappy i know!)

I was thinking the other day about when I would travel with Newport down to Bridgend or Pontypridd or St Helens in Swansea in the pro era. We'd have Percy Montgomery, Rod Snow etc. Ponty would have Neil Jenkins and a ground with some atmosphere and everyone would have fans that turned up, that loved and supported their team. And some welsh teams would get beaten in the heineken cup (no change there) and then the next week you'd look forward to playing Neath at the gnoll. Now with the reigions Bridgend and Pontypridd and Neath and Swansea are dead. Gone. Ok so they do play in the premiership but shorn of their stars and their fans half in the ospreys camp, half in Neath or Swansea, realising that neither one is now their team. Anyway I am not going to deabte the reigional arguments, or the supposed need to be more competitive if we are I just want to say I miss watching my team play other teams that people also miss. No what I was thinking the other day was how many promising young players there are in Wales. Steffan Jones, Simon Gardner, Sam Lewis, Kristian Phillips, Dan Fish and Matthew Morgan. I think we have enough players to have the big 7 teams in Wales back and put into the RaboPro12 to make the Pro15. To get everyone tested week in week out, just plaing. I suppose like the Super 15. We could keep the best players, the players we are interested in playing for Wales here with some WRU assitance much like in New Zealand and let people like Byrne, Popham and Andy Powell who are surplus to go and earn a living in Europe.

Here's an example of how I think it could look. (Please dont complain if you think one or two players should play elsewhere its just a test of if we have the numbers of players. They could be moved around!)

Swansea -

Halfpenny, Liam Williams, Dirksen, Bishop, Eli Walker, Biggar, Richie Rees
Jon Thomas, Sam Lewis, R Pugh, A W Jones, Cai Griffiths, Hibbard, Duncan Jones

Newport -

Martyn Thomas, W Harries, Adam Hughes, Ash Smith, Brew, Tovey, Wayne Evans
Faletau, Bearman, Lydiate, Charteris, Lou Reed, Rhys Thomas, Burns, Phil Price

Bridgend -

Gareth Owen, Prydie, Dafydd Hewitt, Henson, Mustoe, Matthew Morgan, Webb
Pitman, Navidi, Ryan Jones, Lloyd Peers, J Down, S Andrews, Baldwin, Bevington

Cardiff -

Czekaj, Alex Cuthbert, Roberts, G Evans, Tom James, N Robinson, Lloyd Williams
Lewis Evans, Warburton, Pretorius, M Cook, D Jones, Corsi, TR Thomas, Yapp

Pontypridd -

Dan Fish, Fussell, Tom Riley, Gareth Maule, Stoddart, Steffan Jones, Tom Isaacs
Ed Siggery, J Edwards, Groves, I Evans, Brad Davies, S Hobbs, M Rees, Gethin

Neath -

Barry Davies, K Phillips, Beck, Hook, Fenby, Matthew Jones, Knoyle
Tom Smith, Tipuric, Morgan Allen, James King, Welch, P James, Bennett, A Jones

Llanelli -

Newton, North, Scott Williams, J Davies, Lee Williams, Priestland, Mike Phillips
B Morgan, Turbull, McCusker, Day, A Shingler, S Gardner, Owens, Iestyn Thomas


What does everyone think?

Trev,

So us people from Ebbw would do what? Be expected to go an follow Newport at leats now the Dragons are trying to get away from the Newport link as much as they can.

and what happens if your system fails, if the new Academies don't produce enough players to sustain it? Do we go back to regional rugby? Face it, the reason we're doing so well, for young talented players coming through, is that the Regions are finally working as advertised, it's taken 7 years, but they're starting to pay dividends. Why change it again and have another 5 or 10 years in the doldrums?

oh, and by the way, I can tell you're a Newport fan because you've left the Dragons first team virtually untouched, as Newport, and just split up the other 3 regions!

Don't get me wrong I would love to see the clubs be the force they were but it ain't going to happen again I don't think.

Also I agree that these are the 7 'biggest' clubs in my mind but lets not forget the contribution made by clubs like Aberavon, Ebbw Vale, Pooler, Newbridge, South Wales Police etc to those by gone days.

Thing is, if we can't be competitive in the Pro 12 and HC and we can't get people through the gates with 4 teams then we are never going to be able to go back to clubs and have twice as many teams.

Whether we (older generation) admit or not the club system we had just wasn't working.

Yes some teams were always competitive but the spread across the then 12 teams was just to thin and you always knew that some games were going to be very one-sided.

The Regional concept in theory was fine its just the practical transition was a complete horlicks and it has taken 7 years before they are now starting to see the divdends with the youngsters coming through.

Obviously the next step will be the biggest and thats regularly seeing Regions in the quarter final and beyond of the HC.

There are some of the older generation that will never step foot in Rodney Parade, Liberty Stadium or Cardiff City Stadium but that its about the future now.

The youngsters know nothing of the previous club system, all they know is the Regions and will want to go and see their Welsh hereos play much like we all did when we were youngsters.

Unfortunetly, rugby teams are 22 player, and squads tend to be around 40 - and since you have used up every player in Wales with a professional contract, there are going to be some pretty lousy replacements.

Not to mention the fact that most of the teams would be thrashed by decent opposition, at least the regions have the talent and depth to hold their own in the league.

Fair points made by everyone, though i did expect to get some support. Don't forget I've left a lot of foreign players out and a few Welsh players too. I notice how nobody from Pontypridd and Bridgend have commented. Maybe they've given up. Who can blame them? They have no team. I'd rather Wales never win another game so long as we had our clubs back. What is sport about after all?

I was down in Swansea last week and because the Dragons and Blues game had been postponed, I decided to sit in the liberty, watching a terrible standard of rugby, and i mean terrible, with silent spectators wishing they had just gone on their night out earlier. I thought this is not the way, and I will never come again.

Trev

I was a Ponty supporter in those club days and remember vividly the atmosphere of a Ponty v Cardiff game and was there for the Ponty v Brive HC games and it was awesome. I have also stood on the terraces at the Arms Park, Gnoll and St Helens.

I have been to the Cardiff City Stadium to watch the Blues and it was dreadful in every respect. It was cold, sterile, quiet and there was no passion at all.

I would love to see the clubs be the top level but it isn't going to happen.

The Pro12 does a good job of providing decent opposition but it will never ever recreate the passion of week in week out derby games on a Saturday afternoon. Friday night, Saturday evening and Sunday afternoon games are not what your average supporter wants.

There isn't the money to support 7 teams. We couldn't support 5 unfortunately so there has to be a cut off point. We may have the players but if the WRU had to invest all the money into the 7 big teams where would cash for the lower levels i.e: grass roots come from? I think people have very selective memories and maybe want to romanticise how the old days were. Yes there were some good games before regionalism but I remember some awful ones too.

.......and then I woke up.

Lovely dream, but it's never going to happen. Not enough players, not enough fans, not enough money. Professional rugby has moved on and we are finally beginning to catch up. That's the trouble with nostalgia - it's all in the past.

IS,

I agree, some of the games were positively dreadful with a lot of one sided games, yes there were some great atmosphere (still is at Dave) but the games were not always goodd level.

Doc,

I garee that TV scheduling does play a part with some crazy kick off times but that would happen even if we had clubs.

Trev,

Whilst I agree with you in part in sentiment i must totally dis-agree with you and question you mental state ( joking) when you say

'that you would rather Wales never win another game so long as we had our clubs back'.

Surely the aim of the clubs/regions is to make sure the National side get the best players available to them in the best state etc, thats IS something now thats coming to fruition with the Regions.

I am tired of this debate, it won't happen and the clubs would never produce enough academies to bring on youth.

Start looking at the huge positives of what we have. Welsh rugby has improved continuously since we changed to regional rugby. At all levels.

Mainly because of the great work done at the academies...!

If we want to do something positive at club level, and perhas get the old atmosphere back, then we really need to strengthen the premiership. If you look at New Zealand, their second tier/division (ITM Cup) is really strong and they get the players back from the S15 clubs for some games when they're free (maybe before the S15 starts?).

In an ideal world we'd have a strong Welsh Premership which contained a mixture of players: those only linked to the clubs, those players with development contracts for their region, and regional players who've already made the step up. The regions could then be picked from the best players in a region's clubs. At the moment we work this backwards, with regions loaning back players when they're not needed by the regions.

The problem we have is that the regions play so many games that there's little chance for the players to 'step back' to the premiership.

How about this:

We scrap the LV/Anglo-Welsh Cup, and we also scrap regional games during the 6N and Autumn Interntaionals. We could then allow those regional players not selected for international duty to turn out for their affiliated club side - it could be a 'state of origin series', or something similarly cheesy. We could schedule in the derbies for the autumn/6N to give the games some real spice and some higher level players. Obviously, this would be a smack in the face for the club player who plays all season only to be shunted aside by a pro stepping down from the region, but this works elsewhere in SA and NZ, so why not here? The pros game skills and game management could rub off on the youngsters at the clubs, crowds would swell as the games would possibly mean more, youngsters would be in the shop window more for regional contracts, etc.

The big problem with this is firstly the lost revenue from the LV. However, increased revenue for the clubs could be shared with the region as they would essentially be teams made up of club and regional players? Secondly, how do you then fit in the Magners/Pro 12 games if we don't play through the 6N and autumn? That's a biggie and would cause the most head aches.

Anyway, I just though that up in 5 minutes so it probably has more flaws that merits so feel free to pick away!

Griff,

I certainly agree with scrapping Regional games during the 6 Nations and the AIs, if the LV cup was to stay then that should be played during these windows.

Also like the idea of of non-selected players going back to feeder clubs but, our Region would struggle as we have (if I am right) the biggest % of clubs affiliated to us.

Wasn't there a bit of a bun fight few seasons back where by some of the Gwent clubs complained because some teams were getting more Regional players playing for them than others?

Bedford, for these games I wouldn't have regional rugby being played so it wouldn't be a problem for the regions in terms of coping as they wouldn't be playing. I don't think the regions shouold be playing through the 6N or AIs anyway as they are always understrength/weakened by call ups.

My idea would only ever be when the regions are not playing, as is the case in NZ and SA where S15 players go back to their club sides for competitions.

I just think that the whole welsh prem would be boosted by better links with the regional players if perhaps they are regarded as club players first and foremost who have made the grade and been signed up by the region, rather than the current system that loans regional players that are not needed back to affiliated clubs (i.e. are not regional standard, apart from when they are desperate because of injuries!).

There was a bun fight, you're right. Pontypool were complaining that they were in most need because they were near the bottom of the league, but the counter argument was that the top prem club sides need the best/most regional players as they were in the British and Irish cup and that this was a level/tier in between the welsh prem and regional where they could be better developed to the next level. Under my suggestion the clubs would benefit more as ALL of the regions players would be affliated to the clubs and so they would get the bigger players, not just the academy players to play for them during the 6N and AIs (they wouldn't get the massive stars as these would be called up to the welsh team at this time).

Like I said though, I thought it up in 5 minutes so it's bound to have flaws.

Its still better than what the clowns at the WRU have come up with and they have had years

completely wrong mate sorry-

the first thing the WRU need to do is get us bloody gogs involved, do you think being a rugby fan in wrexham is any fun???
need to set up a north wales region (which works, not that dismal rgc rubbish)

welshy,

At first I was encouraged by RGC but then it soon became clear it was just another half hearted attempt to be sen to be doing something.

I would love to see some stats of how many players have been lost to other sports up your way due to the lack of support from the WRU.

it is ridiculous with rgc, i mean i was in the u17/u18's squad for about 4months and the stuff they were doing was rubbish- constantly picking tried and tested and not giving any players a chance. the moves for the backs were so on the edge if one pass wasnt timed to perfection it would likely cause a try for the opposition and everything was so regimented-now of the first team 22, 10 or so players have left- 2 with welsh u16 caps to lecister, 2 to sale, like 4 to widness league and 2 to gloucster.
and trust me some of those guys i have played with and their skill level is immense

Thats what I fear welshy, amd many more before them I guess have been lost to league or possibly into the lower levels of the English game.

'Mainly because of the great work done at the academies...!'

Where do you think those academy players come from?
The hard work done by club coaches when they were young perhaps?
Or, as the Ospreys apparently believe, do you think they just appear on the doorstep at Llandarcy ready for their coaches to do their 'great work'?

I may be an outsider, but I've educated myself fairly well about Welsh rugby, the infighting is great.

At first I was going to rubbish this idea, as the people tend to remember the attandances being bigger than they were, and it would never work, However looking back at the Celtic League in 2002 when it was Welsh clubs the attendances were prettty good.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/celtic/2255022.stm

Swansea V Neath Att: 4,000
Neath V Llanelli Att: 6,000
Newport V Cardiff Att: 8,118
Cardiff V Bridgend Att: 7,500

These figures are really good when you consider at the time

Connacht Att: 3,000
Munster Att: 2,500
Leinster Att: 3,200

So you could be thinking that these attences would have grown like the Irish ones and the grounds they are in now would be sell outs, however
Glasgow used to get Att: 5,375, and as novility worn off they don't get that anymore.

another intresting note is the attendance for the first two league play off finals
Final Att: 30,076 in 02
Final Att: 40,000 in 01

but I still think that, it would never work, the spread of good players would be too thin.
the only Welsh team that competes are the Ospreys, if the teams are weakened, they would just be competing at the bottom of the league, (I'd say Connacht are stronger than the 7 teams you've listed). How long would people turn in numbers to see there team trashed, and have no hope of winning anything.

The regions were set up to concentrate the Welsh playing resources, by having players, play with and against a higher quality of player, entering more teams dilutes this.

The set up of the regions was a mess, allowing clubs to control them was a bad idea, the clubs only were intrested in themselves and fans of other clubs were always going to alienated.

It's interesting but in reality Wales can't really support 4 teams, never mind more.
Our regions probably have a budget of £5m-£6m or so, when you consider the amounts the French teams have we are very far behind. Any surplus of money the WRU has HAS to go to the 4 regions to help them close the financing gap.

If Wales is to expand it need to have 3 provinces set up in north Wales, Gwynedd based in Bangor, Clwyd based in Wrexham and Powys based in Newtown. Mid and North Wales has 1/3rd of our population and 2/3rds of Wales land mass with the projected boom in population over the next couple of decades it's likely most of that green land will be full of people so getting clubs up there, to play at Welsh premiership level, with games also in the Almlin Cup, LV Cup and possibly the British Cup should be a long term aim.