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England from scratch

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 16 Nov 2011, 2:43 pm

France did it in the early 90s, won the world and european cup in 98/00. Spain did it and now look at them. Germany are another recent example.

What England needs is a massive wholesale change, back to the drawing board style, and faith in the quality of our youth. Scrap all England's senior pro's, the ones who failed us time and time again, and get in some of the quality young guns we have coming through. To make this work we need the public at large to wake up and get real, as an international side we're slightly above average and that's it. We're never going to win any kind of tournament. So accept getting knocked around for 5-8 years as by 2018 we'll have a team of talented players with loads of caps under the belt and lots of experience playing together (none of the 'team of individuals' rubbish we have now).

Rio, Terry, Lamps, Gerrard and Barry are perhaps the clearest examples of players that should be dropped now. Arguably Johnson and Cole too (and Carrick should never pull on an England shirt again). Look at the quality we have coming through in those positions: Smalling, Jones, Rodwell, Livermore, Wilshere, Walker, Cleverly.

I'm sure there are plenty more, therefore if we started from scratch now, who would you starting XI be? (capped players allowed, but none over 26).

Hart (24)

Walker (21) Jones (19) Smalling (21) Baines/Gibbs (26/22)

A Johnson (24) Wilshere (19) Rodwell (20) Young (26)

Rooney (26) Welbeck (20)

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Wed 16 Nov 2011, 2:56 pm

Add the likes of Micah Richards, Tom Cleverley, Aaron Lennon, Andy Carroll, Daniel Sturridge, Theo Walcott, Gary Cahill and it's has the makings of a decent squad.

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Post by Guest Wed 16 Nov 2011, 2:57 pm

Hart
Walker, Smalling, Kelly, Baines
Wilshere, Jones, Rodwell
Walcott, Rooney, Young

By 2014 I'd guess most of these would still be playing regular Premier League football and still be talented. You'd also have:
Richards, Dawson, Cahill, Briggs, Flanagan, Gibbs
Lowe, Gardner, Barkley, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Milner, Johnson, Cleverley, Lennon
Welbeck, Sturridge, Carroll, Sordell and Sammy Ameobi(Very Happy)

Ok, they might not be world class, but with all of them hopefully going on to play Premier League football then the depth could be strong. Still can't see us surpassing some other nations by 2014 though.

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Post by Guest Wed 16 Nov 2011, 2:58 pm

my england side for euro 2012 would be

Hart
Walker,Terry,Jagielka,Cole
Walcott,Jones,Parker,Sturridge
Bent,Wellbeck

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Wed 16 Nov 2011, 3:17 pm

Forgot about Milner Doh

At the moment (under 26s, if all fit) I'd go:
Hart
Richards, Smalling, Cahill, Baines
Milner, Jones, Wilshere
Walcott, Rooney, Young


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Post by Guest Wed 16 Nov 2011, 3:32 pm

seriously how does walcott get away with failing time and time again and never gets dropped. How adam johnson doesnt start ahead of walcott is beyond me. england just use walcotts pace but he has no footballing brain, doesnt score enough, crosses are appaling etc. walcott is living off scoring a hat trick in croatia, hasnt scored since for england....shockin. Also this obsession with welbeck is astonishing, you seriously think welbeck will win england the euros and score say 5 or 6 at the tournament....delusional. against spain we got slaughtered on another day that would of been 4 maybe 5-1 to spain. sweden game was poor aswell, ok we won but englands supposed transformation from old boys to young guns is hardly making england world beaters

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 16 Nov 2011, 3:37 pm

John wrote:seriously how does walcott get away with failing time and time again and never gets dropped. How adam johnson doesnt start ahead of walcott is beyond me. england just use walcotts pace but he has no footballing brain, doesnt score enough, crosses are appaling etc. walcott is living off scoring a hat trick in croatia, hasnt scored since for england....shockin. Also this obsession with welbeck is astonishing, you seriously think welbeck will win england the euros and score say 5 or 6 at the tournament....delusional. against spain we got slaughtered on another day that would of been 4 maybe 5-1 to spain. sweden game was poor aswell, ok we won but englands supposed transformation from old boys to young guns is hardly making england world beaters

Name a better more exciting English striking prospect than Welbeck then?

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Post by Crimey Wed 16 Nov 2011, 3:56 pm

I think a big reason Walcott is being picked ahead of Adam Johnson is that Johnson is not a regular for his club side, and I think you should be picked based on your club form, and Johnson simply hasn't played enough for his club to prove his worth to the England team, no matter his quality.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:29 pm

jones wlacvott and wilshire could become the real deal thats for sure

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:33 pm

"seriously how does walcott get away with failing time and time again and never gets dropped"

i really dont agree with that- one of the best english players week in week out for my money- offered the most threat last night- i have no idea how people see him as having no football brain.

id say we only have 3 or 4 amazing players or prospects- players that can hurt any team in the world. wilshire rooney and walcott are 3 of them for sure. Wilshire and rooney have the vision, the tecnique,the passing. walcott has the skill and speed to get round players- and recently has learnt how to draw a foul to retain possesion. He has hurt the best clubs in the world- has made barcelona look stupid in the cl

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Post by Guest Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:45 pm

Walcott's crossing has improved quite a lot from what I've seen of him this season. But even on his runs he's starting to draw the fullback out wide and then cut it back to hsi fullback or back into midfield for the space and to create a chance. I'm a big fan and would start him every game if he's fit.

Like Leak said, compared to the current crop of young strikers then Welbeck is the best. He has the strength to hold the ball up and has shown he isn't afraid to run at defenders. His goalscoring ability probably isn't proven yet, but the kid's only 20.


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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:03 pm

mystiroakey wrote:"seriously how does walcott get away with failing time and time again and never gets dropped"

i really dont agree with that- one of the best english players week in week out for my money- offered the most threat last night- i have no idea how people see him as having no football brain.

id say we only have 3 or 4 amazing players or prospects- players that can hurt any team in the world. wilshire rooney and walcott are 3 of them for sure. Wilshire and rooney have the vision, the tecnique,the passing. walcott has the skill and speed to get round players- and recently has learnt how to draw a foul to retain possesion. He has hurt the best clubs in the world- has made barcelona look stupid in the cl

Most threat last night??! he did a lot of speedy running followed by looking lost and having to stop, play a simple ball to someone else, and let them do something with it. Don't think I can remember one decent cross or any shots. Hopefully Oxlade-Chamerblain will over-take him in a couple of years, he's just as fast but meant to have a more complete game and better footballing brain.

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Post by Guest Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:09 pm

TH, you could argue that Walcott kept possession rather than attempting a cross to an area where England lacked bodies. I'd rather see him keep the bll than send in several crosses when there's only Bobby Zamora in the box.

Ox got marked out of the game against the Belgian U21s, but from the previous games I've seen him in he has a lot of pace and the same direct approach of Walcott. His finishing and technique is quite good and he can hit a decent shot. Needs to be tested at a higher level though because, as seen on Monday, he got completely stifled by a half-decent fullback.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:15 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:"seriously how does walcott get away with failing time and time again and never gets dropped"

i really dont agree with that- one of the best english players week in week out for my money- offered the most threat last night- i have no idea how people see him as having no football brain.

id say we only have 3 or 4 amazing players or prospects- players that can hurt any team in the world. wilshire rooney and walcott are 3 of them for sure. Wilshire and rooney have the vision, the tecnique,the passing. walcott has the skill and speed to get round players- and recently has learnt how to draw a foul to retain possesion. He has hurt the best clubs in the world- has made barcelona look stupid in the cl

Most threat last night??! he did a lot of speedy running followed by looking lost and having to stop, play a simple ball to someone else, and let them do something with it. Don't think I can remember one decent cross or any shots. Hopefully Oxlade-Chamerblain will over-take him in a couple of years, he's just as fast but meant to have a more complete game and better footballing brain.

He won plenty of fouls and retained possesion very well- best link up play with others- was the driving force of the best move of the match, dribbled well . looked strong- drifted in and out. Walcott did well last night. England could and should have scored 4 or 5 goals, but finishing let us down-The majority of those chancves were created from the right provided by walcot

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:22 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
John wrote:seriously how does walcott get away with failing time and time again and never gets dropped. How adam johnson doesnt start ahead of walcott is beyond me. england just use walcotts pace but he has no footballing brain, doesnt score enough, crosses are appaling etc. walcott is living off scoring a hat trick in croatia, hasnt scored since for england....shockin. Also this obsession with welbeck is astonishing, you seriously think welbeck will win england the euros and score say 5 or 6 at the tournament....delusional. against spain we got slaughtered on another day that would of been 4 maybe 5-1 to spain. sweden game was poor aswell, ok we won but englands supposed transformation from old boys to young guns is hardly making england world beaters

Name a better more exciting English striking prospect than Welbeck then?

Sturridge?

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:43 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
John wrote:seriously how does walcott get away with failing time and time again and never gets dropped. How adam johnson doesnt start ahead of walcott is beyond me. england just use walcotts pace but he has no footballing brain, doesnt score enough, crosses are appaling etc. walcott is living off scoring a hat trick in croatia, hasnt scored since for england....shockin. Also this obsession with welbeck is astonishing, you seriously think welbeck will win england the euros and score say 5 or 6 at the tournament....delusional. against spain we got slaughtered on another day that would of been 4 maybe 5-1 to spain. sweden game was poor aswell, ok we won but englands supposed transformation from old boys to young guns is hardly making england world beaters

Name a better more exciting English striking prospect than Welbeck then?

Sturridge?

I like Sturridge, don't think as exciting a prospect as Welbeck but maybe that's because I like Welbeck's extra pace. My only worry with Sturridge is whether, like A Johnshon, he may suffer from under-exposure. He should be a good goal-scorer and should do well but I'm not sure he'll develop enough to be enough of a marquee name for Chelsea which they look for upfront. Welbeck will get more patience and opportunities at United and might progress quicker/better accordingly.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:51 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:"seriously how does walcott get away with failing time and time again and never gets dropped"

i really dont agree with that- one of the best english players week in week out for my money- offered the most threat last night- i have no idea how people see him as having no football brain.

id say we only have 3 or 4 amazing players or prospects- players that can hurt any team in the world. wilshire rooney and walcott are 3 of them for sure. Wilshire and rooney have the vision, the tecnique,the passing. walcott has the skill and speed to get round players- and recently has learnt how to draw a foul to retain possesion. He has hurt the best clubs in the world- has made barcelona look stupid in the cl

Most threat last night??! he did a lot of speedy running followed by looking lost and having to stop, play a simple ball to someone else, and let them do something with it. Don't think I can remember one decent cross or any shots. Hopefully Oxlade-Chamerblain will over-take him in a couple of years, he's just as fast but meant to have a more complete game and better footballing brain.

He won plenty of fouls and retained possesion very well- best link up play with others- was the driving force of the best move of the match, dribbled well . looked strong- drifted in and out. Walcott did well last night. England could and should have scored 4 or 5 goals, but finishing let us down-The majority of those chancves were created from the right provided by walcot

I may be being critical, but you're definitely being generous. He wasn't MOTM, Walker was and well deserved too. Our 3 best chances were 1) The goal (Downing cross from left) 2) Rodwell header to the post (Downing cross from right) and 3) Jones breakaway run.

For me Walker, Rodwell and, to a lesser extent, Jones were the stand out performers on the night. Walcott was a steady-eddy 7/10, as he is most times he turns out, exciting flashes but little end product.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 16 Nov 2011, 6:14 pm

i thought that link up with rodwell was by far the best passage of play- rodwell didnt realise the space he had and messed it up-(if that goal was finished of for me it wouldnt be out of place with a barca invlolving messi goal)Mind you i wouldnt say he was man of the match- but as good as any other- downing was also good on the left.

the good thing about wlacott is his potential-

secondly even at the moment(not quite the finished article) he produces against the best opposition as well as the average- motm against chelsea for me- and seems to be arsernals star performer in cl games.

thirdly he scares defenders- players get drawn to him in numbers which creates space elsewhere

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Post by TopHat24/7 Thu 17 Nov 2011, 9:45 am

mystiroakey wrote:i thought that link up with rodwell was by far the best passage of play- rodwell didnt realise the space he had and messed it up-(if that goal was finished of for me it wouldnt be out of place with a barca invlolving messi goal)Mind you i wouldnt say he was man of the match- but as good as any other- downing was also good on the left.

the good thing about wlacott is his potential-

secondly even at the moment(not quite the finished article) he produces against the best opposition as well as the average- motm against chelsea for me- and seems to be arsernals star performer in cl games.

thirdly he scares defenders- players get drawn to him in numbers which creates space elsewhere

How long do you have to keep bigging up a players 'potential' though before you accept he's never going to reach the finished article we thought he could be? I loved Walcott when he first burst on the scene, even had a big argument with my mate (a gooner) about how good I thought he could be and how dangerous he was. But that was in 2008. He joined Arsenal 5 years ago, we've seen little improvement since then. He's still the same exciting young prospect with blistering pace and a good shot.

The perfect anti-thesis of Walcott that proves my point is Christiano Ronaldo. Joined United aged 17 (same age as Walcott when he moved to Arsenal) and 5 seasons later was the worlds best player, subsequently the world's most expensive ever footballer a year or so after that.

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 17 Nov 2011, 10:32 am

yeah will see . it would be nice to compare our players to someone like ronaldo- but i think we have to accept we havent got one of those- better to compare english players with english alternatives. Id be happy for walcot to play as a striker- but its tough to get the balance right

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