The England RWC report leaked - "There's £35,000 just gone down the toilet"...!

by maestegmafia Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:56 am

Not nice reading for any rugby fan of any nationality, lets hope this attitude is not prolific. These articles below capture the cynicism of modern professional sport at its worst.

Looks like the players and MJ were more to blame than Rob Andrew who apparently according to Stuart Barnes last weekend strongly advised against having MJ as coach.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/23/england-world-cup-fiasco-leaked-report

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8907491/England-players-reveal-sharp-divisions-in-the-camp-during-dismal-World-Cup-campaign-in-New-Zealand.html

by **LondonTiger** Wed 23 Nov 2011, 7:21 am

Who leaked the report?
Who leaked selected comments from the report?
Who gains most from a report that blames the players and the coaches?

Having read the full details I reckon you could have garnered comments similar to this from anonymous players in most of the squads. Every player who thinks they were hard done by will have a moan - especially if it is anonymous. If such a review had happened in Wales after the AIs or the 6Ns there would have been players making similar comments.

Oh and the £35 grand comment. Do we know the context? To me it sounds like a jocular comment rather than a suggestion that they cared mostly about the money.

Obviously there were major issues - but yet again we will see everything blown completely out of all proportion.

by Metal Tiger Wed 23 Nov 2011, 8:58 am

Absolutely agree with LT here...

Choice snippets which clearly blame MJ & the players... and the security, the coaches, the water boy, the ball boy, the physio, the chap that cleans the kit... in fact anyone and everyone but Rob Andrew

So who did they say leaked these golden gems?

by Metal Tiger Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:04 am

Actually Maestegmafia...

Just a quick question for you...

Seeing as you post SO MANY articals about England & English rugby in general... are you the GreyGhost reincarnated?

Because at best the sheer volume of articals you post comes across as a little obsessive... just saying.

by doctor_grey Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:04 am

Has anyone obtained or seen a copy of any of the reports yet? These articles only describe a couple of media-erection forming highklights. But no real meat or details. Sounds - so far - as a guy making a stupid comment about money and another who thought MJ should have been tougher.

This does have some credibility since it was reported in the Guardian and Telegraph and not the Sun or Mail, but they don't report much information. Almost as if the newspaper reporters were shown a couple of carefully selected snipets from the report. Not tht I am a sceptic, mind. And, like all of us, I want more information, preferably a copy of the reports.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:07 am

Agree completely with LT and MT on this. These choice snippets handily point the blame away from Rob Andrew at just about the same time as questions were being raised over why his contributions weren't being called into question.

For me there isn't enough information there, the players are contracted via PRL and the Players Association agreements as to their remuneration for playing. Surely they can't turn around and haggle on the evening before they go? Ditto the £35k comment, at LT says where's the context?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:19 am

Sam, difficult to know what the reports themselves say, as both exerts in the paper quote the input that was made to the review body by those concerned? But it is pretty damning reading tho Yikes

It's gonna be a tought job for me to turn these buffoons around!! Wink

by maestegmafia Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:20 am

Metal Tiger wrote:Actually Maestegmafia...

Just a quick question for you...

Seeing as you post SO MANY articals about England & English rugby in general... are you the GreyGhost reincarnated?

Because at best the sheer volume of articals you post comes across as a little obsessive... just saying.

I think i post a lot more on Welsh rugby, particularly regional rugby, you just don't read them.

I think you will find that if I have posted on English rugby it is usually because it is the days big story. Todays big stories are the RWC report which I think many people English or not are interested to read, and Henry opting out of Englands manager list...

by MattyG Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:20 am

The guy in the times said he had read all 3 reports totaling over 100 pages.

But strange how not one mention of Rob Andrew

Hello by the way (first post)

by doctor_grey Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:24 am

Welcome Matt. Seems you are a wee bit sceptical about Mr. Andrew. Welcome to the club.
All we want here is to see the reports.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:28 am

Welcome MattyG

by MattyG Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:30 am

The fact we had hired a team/leadership guru to stand in between the mangment and the players speaks volumes to me(hates Human Resource people).

by hugehandoff Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:40 am

I think we can all agree that without reading the entire content of these reports the quotes in the articles could be misleading. Plus as these reports were all under RA's supervision they may not be too critical of him.

But....

if some of the stuff is remotely true then it certainly does not show the leading players, coaches and MJ in a very good light. Most worrying for me is the drinking culture.....a quiet beer is one thing but getting p*ssed is totally another. The comments re training in the morning and having afternoon's off in the week before the France game when the match was an evening kick off seem to be basic errors. The willingness to throw their game plan out of the window, the conflict between coaches, a lack of any coherent game plan etc etc all shows MJ to be out of his depth if this is true. Brian Ashton was completedly slated after the 2007 RWC but then secured a 6Ns win before being thrown out so maybe MJ could have stayed if he had a new decent mentor and new coaches? But then again this is not exactly the sort of job to be learning as you go.

Hard to know the truth and no doubt some disgruntled players getting their own back, but the selection of players on reputation over form was apparent for all to see as was the complete abandonment of the 6N game plan. How about the new centre combo for the France game.....muddled and panic thinking?

I am not optimistic that England will avoid another 4 years of pain and ineptness. furious

by maestegmafia Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:45 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Oh and the £35 grand comment. Do we know the context? To me it sounds like a jocular comment rather than a suggestion that they cared mostly about the money.

Obviously there were major issues - but yet again we will see everything blown completely out of all proportion.

The Guardian wrote:Among the evidence gathered by the Rugby Players' Association, who received feedback from 90% of the players, was a complaint by one player about a colleague's reaction in the dressing room – "There's £35,000 just gone down the toilet" – following the quarter-final defeat to France in Auckland. The player concerned said the response "made me sick. Money shouldn't even come into a player's mind."

by HERSH Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:46 am

I liked this one

"Steve Borthwick was a phenomenal leader. He was so knowledgeable about the game that I’m sure he intimidated John Wells.”

Its what all us Bath and Sarries fans know already, was he made a scapegoat by the poor coaches within the English set up? He was better than Deacon by a country mile and he was a good captain.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:58 am

Morning all.

This morning's (London) Times had over 7 pages devoted to the leaked reports (it took most of my commute to read them all). But the contents could be summarised in 7 words: Almost everyone was rubbish. Except Graeme Rowntree.

I did have a wee smirk at the comment from the player who was aggrieved that the Irish team drank far more in the Altitude Bar in Queenstown than the English did, but the media didn't notice

My take on the leaked reports based on the Times articles (I haven't looked but I guess a lot of them are only available on-line to paying subscribers) are as follows:

Johnson - was too loyal to his coaches and senior players, plus the RFU appointed consultant Murphy stayed Johnno's hand when he was about to give people much-needed bollockings.

Other Coaching - defence and lineout drills were 3 years behind the times, and there were too many meaningless buzzwords. Game plans were non-existent and Dave Allred spent more time on the golf course than kicking. Lots of covering of backsides too. Youngs and Flood wound up having to work out their own tactics. Apparently it's been a couple of years since any input was sought from Premiership coaches. Pre-season training camps were long, draining but lacking intensity

Rave reviews for the scrum coaching the only good point.

Selection - form was largely ignored in favour of some senior players and media darlings. Apparently the team doctors wrapped people in cotton wool to the point that some players stopped reporting niggles for fear of missing selection.

Players - some senior players lead drinking games and mocked players who tried hard in training as "uncool" try-hards. There was a big focus on £s with players demanding more £s pre-tour and looking to organise their own commercial opportunities during it. Though I suspect the £35k down the tubes comment was a throwaway line.

Moody was ineffective as a captain, with Johnston handling team talks for him.

The team was deeply divided, which helps explain why no-one stepped up to drag Tindall home earlier on his big night out.

Media management - poorly handled and devolved into a siege mentality. Criticism that Johnson was forced to devote time on answering questions on off-field matters when Andrew or others should have handled them.

by red_stag Wed 23 Nov 2011, 10:01 am

The only viable solution I can see is a complete overhaul of the RFU, National Team and Saxons.

by SB Wed 23 Nov 2011, 10:02 am

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/7326640/Leaked-reports-shame-England

A report commissioned by the RFU, RPA and Premier Rugby has been leaked when it was supposed to stay out of the reach of the general public.

Edit, merging this with the existing article - KRD

by HERSH Wed 23 Nov 2011, 10:07 am

"the Irish team drank far more in the Altitude Bar in Queenstown than the English did, but the media didn't notice"

So we lost that too! Sad

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 23 Nov 2011, 10:12 am

HERSH wrote:"the Irish team drank far more in the Altitude Bar in Queenstown than the English did, but the media didn't notice"

So we lost that too!

V good, Hersh

by maestegmafia Wed 23 Nov 2011, 10:13 am

hugehandoff wrote:I think we can all agree that without reading the entire content of these reports the quotes in the articles could be misleading. Plus as these reports were all under RA's supervision they may not be too critical of him.

But....

if some of the stuff is remotely true

I tried to give a few sources in the OP to give a reasonably rounded report on events as it appears only The Times is actually publishing the reports, the other papers are reporting on the reports.

The leaks are based on the findings of three different reports from three different sources.

I am not sure how accurate you can establish the facts from these.

If anyone else can find varying articles please post them... I am sure everyone would like to know what really happened and why.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 23 Nov 2011, 10:16 am

Well one thing this report shows to me was that MJ´s resignation was the right decision. A manager is judged not only on the team´s exploits on the field but also off it. Woodward, for all his faults, at least put the onus on players to perform by making settled combinations and had a transparent long-term strategy in place.

Andrew can´t be blamed for the situation depicted in this leaked report. The problem is he can´t be blamed for anything. He´s like a criminal dusting down all traces of fingerprints. But with the things talked about in here, he didn´t need to remove any evidence so to speak.

by cabbagesandbrussels Wed 23 Nov 2011, 11:14 am

In my opinion, this is the best thing to come out of this total mess....let's start afresh, get the deadwood out and start rebuilding.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15853364.stm

Edit, merging this with the existing article - KRD

by TycroesOsprey Wed 23 Nov 2011, 11:28 am

LondonTiger wrote:Who leaked the report?
Who leaked selected comments from the report?
Who gains most from a report that blames the players and the coaches?

Having read the full details I reckon you could have garnered comments similar to this from anonymous players in most of the squads. Every player who thinks they were hard done by will have a moan - especially if it is anonymous. If such a review had happened in Wales after the AIs or the 6Ns there would have been players making similar comments.

Oh and the £35 grand comment. Do we know the context? To me it sounds like a jocular comment rather than a suggestion that they cared mostly about the money.

Obviously there were major issues - but yet again we will see everything blown completely out of all proportion.

LT I think your way off here, when there is dissent in the Wales camp it is quickly known in the goldfish bowl of welsh rugby. There were reviews in Wales after the AI's and Six Nations and player dissent or misbehaviour were not an issue for Wales in either of those blocks of international rugby. When welsh players have stepped out of line and some have done so spectacularly the players have been dropped from the squad. To try and claim that most of the other squads would have had a silmilar response is frankly a joke and to use the welsh as an example is even more ridiculous.

in 2007 there was a similar level of dissent in the welsh tsquad and game that is apparent in England now. The WRU however wasted no time, Gareth Jenkins was sacked on teh spot after the defeat to fiji and Gatland was headhunted and in place before christmas it led to a grand slam and improved performances. Even when we drifted a little in 09-10 there was no dissent in teh squad and the players bought into the patterns of play that Gatts brought to the table. That provided the building blocks for welsh success in the RWC.

Im a bit stunned there are people still trying to say it wasnt that bad out in NZ for England, until people realise there was a serious problem in the English squad and acknowledge just how odious some of teh behaviour was then the problem will not be addressed and improvments will not happen. IN 2007 wales identified the issues and cauterised the wounds very very quickly.

England by contrast are going to appoint a caretaker coach with no authority, someone who is waiting to be replaced. They talk about sacrificing the six nations and summer tour in order to find the right man. That would mean whoever takes over will not face a team in anything other than a friendly until spring 2013. England host the world cup in 2015! That is simply not enough time to put together a side capable of performing at teh world cup. SCW, Graham Henry and Jake white have all proven you need time to develop a side capable of winning the RWC. The longer this farce goes on the harder it will be for the RFU to drag themselves out of the hole they have created, How much more embarrassing would underperforming at a RWC in your own country be? Sort it out stop trying to deflect this onto the welsh and accept England needs a radical and rapid overhaul.

by damage_13 Wed 23 Nov 2011, 11:50 am

I rather laughed at this one.

“Steve Borthwick was a phenomenal leader. He was so knowledgeable about the game that I’m sure he intimidated John Wells.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8908818/Englands-Rugby-World-Cup-shambles-laid-bare-as-leaked-report-blames-greedy-players-and-weak-leaders.html

by HERSH Wed 23 Nov 2011, 11:56 am

But Damage_13 he was and still is, certainly no worse than POC as a player or captain.

by beshocked Wed 23 Nov 2011, 11:58 am

I agree with Hersh. Borthwick wouldn't have been praised by his club mates at Bath and Sarries if he was a poor captain.

Afterall he is an Aviva Premiership winning captain now.

by damage_13 Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:44 pm

I laughed because he was a crap England Captain no matter how knowledgeable of the game he was.

Those AWFUL Patronising post match interviews and his quiet performances on pitch doomed him from the get go. Sorry, nice bloke that he is, NOT and International leader.

by Guest Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:49 pm

To be fair Turkster, we did have some misbehaviour during the 6N's this year, with Jamie Roberts and John Davies being involved in a fight outside a club in Cardiff in the middle of the tournament. We aren't angels either.

But as you've said, with the more serious cases of misbehaviour, the players were dropped from the squad straight away. We are by no means perfect, and I would highly doubt that Englanda re the only set up with these problems (even if theirs does seem to be on a larger scale at the moment).

by whocares Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:06 pm

to be fair, similar report could have been written about france (maybe not with that much depth and misbehaviour though) : players were let down by the media, coaches, complained about the pre-RWC preparation and were told they were spoiled brats. the only thing is that nobody in the FFR would bother about ordering such report.

actually smiled when reading this extract :
"There were two massive playbooks, which many players didn’t look at because it was in too much depth"

could have been a copy-paste from a french player reaction during last 6N. what followed is an absolute ignorance of any game plan and total reliance on basics

by **rodders** Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:13 pm

HERSH wrote:But Damage_13 he was and still is, certainly no worse than POC as a player or captain.

Yes and Phil de Glanville was every bit a good as Brian O'Driscoll as well!

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:22 pm

Todd Blackadder was a fine servant of Canterbury rugby. But an AB great he was not. Not even an AB worth speaking about to be perfectly honest. Worsley was a great servant of Wasps but certainly not a great backrower for England.

Just because you´re a legend at a club doesn´t mean that status extends to the test field. Borthwick rubbed the refs the wrong way as test captain. It wasn´t his knowledge of the game that intimidated the ref. It was the hand in the cookie jar and what about it look he always used to send out to the refs.

by Armchairexpert Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:30 pm

A lot of it is not too much of a surprise

Lack of game plan, coaching quality and unity was plain to see

Lack of conditioning, no big surprise since I read that they were having long weekends before the RWC (please ask our most successful Olympic athletes, rowers and cyclists how many days off they took off in the last year....)

Lack of transparent and thought through selection also clear to see

But most damning to me is the seeming lack of unity within the squad. Clearly some sort of split between players, just the fact that some of these comments were made shows that regardless of the contents.

The question is can the "bad eggs" be easily weeded out. It seems as if it was rather the senior players in this camp who will naturally go, but how many of the new guys have been sucked in (one thinks of Tuilagi and the ferry, not something he did without considerable egging on).

A complete new ethos is required (and I don't think it is Borthwick, consummate professional though he may be, that would bring it. I am not sure he has the personality to impose his will on others as his time in charge probably showed). I wonder how long the camp has been split and sour........

by red_stag Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:33 pm

A young, popular and above all else sensible captain is needed. Who do you go for though?

Tom Wood?
Dylan Hartley?
Tom Croft?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:35 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Todd Blackadder was a fine servant of Canterbury rugby. But an AB great he was not. Not even an AB worth speaking about to be perfectly honest. Worsley was a great servant of Wasps but certainly not a great backrower for England.

Just because you´re a legend at a club doesn´t mean that status extends to the test field. Borthwick rubbed the refs the wrong way as test captain. It wasn´t his knowledge of the game that intimidated the ref. It was the hand in the cookie jar and what about it look he always used to send out to the refs.

Likewise Blackadder at Edinburgh

by TJ1 Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:40 pm

Hartly - no way

He is a nasty arrogant thug and a penalty machine - he needs to be dropped not made captain.

by Turkster Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:43 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:To be fair Turkster, we did have some misbehaviour during the 6N's this year, with Jamie Roberts and John Davies being involved in a fight outside a club in Cardiff in the middle of the tournament. We aren't angels either.

But as you've said, with the more serious cases of misbehaviour, the players were dropped from the squad straight away. We are by no means perfect, and I would highly doubt that Englanda re the only set up with these problems (even if theirs does seem to be on a larger scale at the moment).

can I ask what post this is in reply to? as far as I know I haven't posted on this thread until now. Headscratch

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:47 pm

But you will. Rugbydreamer sees all... including the future. She is all powerful. notworthy

by TycroesOsprey Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:49 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:To be fair Turkster, we did have some misbehaviour during the 6N's this year, with Jamie Roberts and John Davies being involved in a fight outside a club in Cardiff in the middle of the tournament. We aren't angels either.

But as you've said, with the more serious cases of misbehaviour, the players were dropped from the squad straight away. We are by no means perfect, and I would highly doubt that Englanda re the only set up with these problems (even if theirs does seem to be on a larger scale at the moment).

Hey Im not Turkster in disguise. JR and JD getting assaulted is a bit different to them behaving badly, although they certainly could have avoided the situation. They also should have turned up to the court case but were told by the police not to. This upset the judge and again should have been avoided. Foxy and JR are two of our better behaved players.

by Turkster Wed 23 Nov 2011, 1:53 pm

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Hey Im not Turkster in disguise.

phew, thought I'd been sleepwalking for a minute. Erm

by Poorfour Wed 23 Nov 2011, 2:00 pm

red_stag wrote:A young, popular and above all else sensible captain is needed. Who do you go for though?

Tom Wood?
Dylan Hartley?
Tom Croft?

If the quote about Robshaw and Wood is true (“[Chris] Robshaw and [Tom] Wood proved themselves to be the fittest, the strongest and played out of their skin in training, but then they were overlooked for senior players and we reverted to type.”), then one of them would seem to be a good choice for Captain. In Wood's favour, he has more international experience and is seen by most as a nailed on starter. In Robshaw's favour, he has two years of captaincy experience with his club, would be a clean break from the RWC 2015 squad, and by the sound of things would have more caps if selection had been on merit and form.

by Guest Wed 23 Nov 2011, 2:10 pm

eep sorry Turskter! Was speed reading this morning although with a couple of Scarlets threads so I got posters muddled. Apologies Smile

by red_stag Wed 23 Nov 2011, 2:14 pm

Forgot about Robshaw actually. Good call too

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 23 Nov 2011, 2:15 pm

Poorfour wrote:
red_stag wrote:A young, popular and above all else sensible captain is needed. Who do you go for though?

Tom Wood?
Dylan Hartley?
Tom Croft?

If the quote about Robshaw and Wood is true (“[Chris] Robshaw and [Tom] Wood proved themselves to be the fittest, the strongest and played out of their skin in training, but then they were overlooked for senior players and we reverted to type.”), then one of them would seem to be a good choice for Captain. In Wood's favour, he has more international experience and is seen by most as a nailed on starter. In Robshaw's favour, he has two years of captaincy experience with his club, would be a clean break from the RWC 2015 squad, and by the sound of things would have more caps if selection had been on merit and form.

Poorfour, could you accommodate both Wood and Robshaw in the same backrow?

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Wed 23 Nov 2011, 2:21 pm

I have to say that I'm not surprised that Rob Andrew hasn't been blamed in these reports. That's not a conspiracy theory, but rather it's a result of the nature of the report. The purpose of this report is to look at why England performed badly at the World Cup. It's only natural that it should look at the immediate reasons for that, rather than looking at the wider context. Players can only comment on what they see.

What's most interesting to me is the split in comments from the players about their team-mates. On the one hand, some are saying that senior players were not dedicated enough, while others are saying that the rules were too strict.

by Poorfour Wed 23 Nov 2011, 2:31 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
red_stag wrote:A young, popular and above all else sensible captain is needed. Who do you go for though?

Tom Wood?
Dylan Hartley?
Tom Croft?

If the quote about Robshaw and Wood is true (“[Chris] Robshaw and [Tom] Wood proved themselves to be the fittest, the strongest and played out of their skin in training, but then they were overlooked for senior players and we reverted to type.”), then one of them would seem to be a good choice for Captain. In Wood's favour, he has more international experience and is seen by most as a nailed on starter. In Robshaw's favour, he has two years of captaincy experience with his club, would be a clean break from the RWC 2015 squad, and by the sound of things would have more caps if selection had been on merit and form.
Poorfour, could you accommodate both Wood and Robshaw in the same backrow?

Yes, unless you want an out and out seven - but I don't think any of the EQP openside candidates are ready yet.

by MattyG Wed 23 Nov 2011, 2:54 pm

When is Judge Jeff Blackett report being leaked?

by Effervescing Elephant Wed 23 Nov 2011, 2:56 pm

Just after RA has redacted it... allegedly.

by Metal Tiger Wed 23 Nov 2011, 3:32 pm

red_stag wrote:A young, popular and above all else sensible captain is needed. Who do you go for though?

Tom Wood?
Dylan Hartley?
Tom Croft?

I think I would be happy to see Tom Croft become captain. Usually a guaranteed starter on the blindside for Tigers & England, No Ego... they're not allowed to have one at Tigers... Cockers would bite their heads off. He has a great work ethic and I think has the confidence, knowledge and years ahead of him to be a credit.

by JDandfries Wed 23 Nov 2011, 3:41 pm

red_stag wrote:A young, popular and above all else sensible captain is needed. Who do you go for though?

Tom Wood?
Dylan Hartley?
Tom Croft?

When did Dylan Hartley become sensible??

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