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P4P 10 years ago

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Post by bellchees Mon 14 Mar 2011, 2:39 pm

I was watching Roy Jones jr vs Julio Cesar Gonzalez which took place in 2001 and during the fight Larry Merchant put up his top 10 P4P list. The quality of the fighters on that list struck me as being some way above today's top 10. I was looking for some opinions on why people think this is, is boxing in decline? Maybe today's fighters will be looked upon more kindly in 10 years time? Maybe you think today's top 10 are better?

2001 Larry Merchant

Felix Trinidad 40-0
Shane Mosley 38-0
Roy Jones Jr 44-1
Bernard Hopkins 39-2-1
Oscar De La Hoya 34-2
Floyd Mayweather 26-0
Marco Antonio Barrera 53-3
Erik Morales 41-0
Manny Pacquaio 33-2
Fernando Vargas 21-1

2011 Ring Magazine

Manny Pacquaio 52-3-2
Floyd Mayweather 41-0
Nonito Donaire 26-1
Sergio Martinez 45-2-2
Juan Manuel Marquez 52-5-1
Pongsaklek Wonjongkam 78-3-1
Wlad Klitschko 55-3
Timothy Bradley 27-0
Juan Manuel Lopez 29-0
Giovani Segura 26-1-1

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Post by azania Mon 14 Mar 2011, 3:27 pm

Good grief. The boxers of 10 years ago looked awesome compared to today's motley crew.

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Post by bellchees Mon 14 Mar 2011, 4:07 pm

There sure was some real quality there. Do you think any of today's group will be on a P4P list in 10 years time like Manny and Floyd managed?

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Post by azania Mon 14 Mar 2011, 4:10 pm

bellchees wrote:There sure was some real quality there. Do you think any of today's group will be on a P4P list in 10 years time like Manny and Floyd managed?

They;re nearly all pushing 30. Where are the young guys?

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Post by bellchees Mon 14 Mar 2011, 4:15 pm

The younger guys don't get put in with anyone good enough to test them and so they can't get on P4P lists. The only under 25 I can think of that could make it on there would be Khan if he beats Bradley this year, that's a big if though.

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Post by azania Mon 14 Mar 2011, 4:23 pm

bellchees wrote:The younger guys don't get put in with anyone good enough to test them and so they can't get on P4P lists. The only under 25 I can think of that could make it on there would be Khan if he beats Bradley this year, that's a big if though.

Sad state of affairs.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Mon 14 Mar 2011, 4:26 pm

Don't see what age has to do with this, the average age between the two lists isn't that different

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Post by bellchees Mon 14 Mar 2011, 5:37 pm

imperialghosty wrote:Don't see what age has to do with this, the average age between the two lists isn't that different

I think the average age is quite different. I think only Hopkins and Jones are over 30 at the time of the 1st list whereas about half of the later list are in their mid 30's. Also with Manny and Vargas on there in their early 20's there is no one you could really consider from today's crop of fighters that could be on there at that age.

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Post by samevans1 Mon 14 Mar 2011, 5:39 pm

Blimey, the older list does look pretty damn good.

I think the top four today are still excellent; but the lower reaches of the top ten are not as strong.

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Post by bellchees Mon 14 Mar 2011, 5:43 pm

samevans1 wrote:Blimey, the older list does look pretty damn good.

I think the top four today are still excellent; but the lower reaches of the top ten are not as strong.

That's what I thought at first glance. Do you think that the guys in today's lower end of the list will be looked upon more kindly in 10 years time or are they just not as good?

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Post by samevans1 Mon 14 Mar 2011, 5:54 pm

Lopez, Segura and Bradley are too early on to really make a judgement.

I think Bradley will lose to Khan. Segura is talented though and might well dominate his division for the next few years.

KLitschko can't have many years left and neither can Wongjongkam.

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Post by 88Chris05 Mon 14 Mar 2011, 5:55 pm

The top two of today is stronger, but in terms of depth the 2001 list trumps it pretty comfortably.

I don't think that's a case of rose-tinted specs, either. By 2001, Morales had already beaten Barrera, Junior Jones, Daniel Zaragoza, Kelley, McCullough and Espadas, defended his Super-Bantamweight crown nine times (including a unification bout) and stepped up to take the WBC Featherweight belt; and after all that, he was still 'only' ranked eighth by Merchant. But the scary thing is, that low (relatively speaking) placing by Merchant is entirely understandable.

Now consider if Morales had achieved that between 2007 and 2011 instead of 1997 and 2001 - can anyone seriously deny that we'd all be giving him an automatic top three or at the very least top five spot right now, rather than a place at the lower end of the list?
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Post by Colonial Lion Mon 14 Mar 2011, 6:07 pm

It makes for grim reading, theres no doubt about that.

Whats also worth considering is who the the top guys were, and soon to be facing compared to whats on offer now.

On top of the fights that had already happened, in 2001 we were still to have:

Morales v Barrera II and III
Hopkins v Trinidad
Hopkins v De la Hoya
Pacquiao v Morales I,II and III
Pacquiao v Barrera I and II
De la Hoya v Vargas
De la Hoya v Mosely II

Essentially all the top guys were fighting each other.

Looking at whats on offer now it is really a pale reflection.




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Post by Colonial Lion Mon 14 Mar 2011, 6:17 pm

I must also add - its a very damning reflection on the current behaviour of number one and two guys on the current list.

We have Mayweather who is semi retired and has been for the last 4 years. And then look at Pacquiaos last few opponent choices.

There are as many as four guys on the current pound for pound list that Pacquiao could potentially face - Martinez, Mayweather, Marquez and Bradley. Thats across 3 divisions of Pacquiaos choice even without includig catchweights.

When you consider the likes of De la Hoya managed to face an incredible six guys on his list it also puts things in perspective that Pacquiao has really been choosy since he left the super bantam weight division.

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Post by bellchees Mon 14 Mar 2011, 10:20 pm

The odds of having the widely regarded P4P 1 and 2 in the same division at a given time are quite low and it is so frustrating that they cant get a fight sorted between them.

On a side note how many times can people think of when the P4P 1 and 2 actually fought?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Mon 14 Mar 2011, 10:23 pm

Think your being a tad harsh on Pacquiao there

Bradley is a 140lber and is tied up trying to clear out the division
Marquez is a lightweight and has faced Pacquiao twice before
Martinez is very unrealistic as he is now competing at Middleweight

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Post by Colonial Lion Mon 14 Mar 2011, 10:52 pm

imperialghosty wrote:Think your being a tad harsh on Pacquiao there

Bradley is a 140lber and is tied up trying to clear out the division
Marquez is a lightweight and has faced Pacquiao twice before
Martinez is very unrealistic as he is now competing at Middleweight

You would have to think any of these fighters would jump at the chance to fight Pacquiao almost regardless of whatever weight stipulations he puts in place.

Pacquiao conviniently hasnt settled on a weight. Hes always too big for one guy or too small for another despite the fact he has a carte blanch to blow up or drain down fighters as he pleases. He has seemingly settled on welterweight now for his next clash but no doubt we will all be told how he is the smaller man only coming in at 143 pounds on so on. Yet if Bradley were touted then it would be Pacquiao is a welter now and cant make lightwelter and Bradley will have to come up a weight. Likewise with Marquez.

Essentially Pacquiao can pick and choose any of three weight classes and any potential catchweight in between. The weights are an excuse for him to dismiss fighters as he pleases. Certainly Marquez would have come to lightwelterweight or even welterweight and has much more form than Mosely. Bradley could be made at either welter or lightwelter and I am sure he would postpone any other match up in order to fight Pacquiao. Martinez is trickiest but could be made at lightmiddle.

The reality is Mosely only became viable when he was dominated by Mayweather and did nothing to dismiss suggestions he was finished against Sergio Mora. Before that he was too big, small or whatever else for Pacquiao.


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Post by azania Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:15 pm

Colonial Lion wrote:
imperialghosty wrote:Think your being a tad harsh on Pacquiao there

Bradley is a 140lber and is tied up trying to clear out the division
Marquez is a lightweight and has faced Pacquiao twice before
Martinez is very unrealistic as he is now competing at Middleweight

You would have to think any of these fighters would jump at the chance to fight Pacquiao almost regardless of whatever weight stipulations he puts in place.

Pacquiao conviniently hasnt settled on a weight. Hes always too big for one guy or too small for another despite the fact he has a carte blanch to blow up or drain down fighters as he pleases. He has seemingly settled on welterweight now for his next clash but no doubt we will all be told how he is the smaller man only coming in at 143 pounds on so on. Yet if Bradley were touted then it would be Pacquiao is a welter now and cant make lightwelter and Bradley will have to come up a weight. Likewise with Marquez.

Essentially Pacquiao can pick and choose any of three weight classes and any potential catchweight in between. The weights are an excuse for him to dismiss fighters as he pleases. Certainly Marquez would have come to lightwelterweight or even welterweight and has much more form than Mosely. Bradley could be made at either welter or lightwelter and I am sure he would postpone any other match up in order to fight Pacquiao. Martinez is trickiest but could be made at lightmiddle.

The reality is Mosely only became viable when he was dominated by Mayweather and did nothing to dismiss suggestions he was finished against Sergio Mora. Before that he was too big, small or whatever else for Pacquiao.


Thats the problem. Pac brings huge money and therefore can call the shots. Most in or around is weight would bend to his will.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:51 pm

Pacquiao is the pound for pound number one, it isn't his duty to seek out opponents, if they want to face him they have to do the running. With the exception of Marquez neither Bradley or Martinez have sought a fight so what's the issue? Pacquiao has fought at Welterweight for a couple of years now so we have to assume that's the weight he's settled on and i'll openly say that at 147lbs Mosley is a far more dangerous opponent than Marquez. If he wants a fight below that then Marquez has to accept he'll get less money.

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Post by azania Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:59 pm

imperialghosty wrote:Pacquiao is the pound for pound number one, it isn't his duty to seek out opponents, if they want to face him they have to do the running. With the exception of Marquez neither Bradley or Martinez have sought a fight so what's the issue? Pacquiao has fought at Welterweight for a couple of years now so we have to assume that's the weight he's settled on and i'll openly say that at 147lbs Mosley is a far more dangerous opponent than Marquez. If he wants a fight below that then Marquez has to accept he'll get less money.

With the exception of Floyd, they'll all have to accept less money. Pac is the cash register. No worries there. But the less money they'll get is more that what they'd get fighting others (not Floyd who brings more money). Therein lay the risk re: the weight stips.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:02 am

A fight with Martinez will never happen, he is after all the Middleweight world champion
Marquez would have to move up to weight and the lower it is the more he benefits from it
Bradley hasn't sought out a fight and would again have to move up weight

He could have made a better fight at Welterweight for sure but the guys mentioned aren't realistic targets at their weights.

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Post by azania Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:08 am

I dont recall Clottey actively seeking a fight with Pac (I stand to be corrected). Ditto Marg and many others post Oscar who I recall actively seeking Pac.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:14 am

Which of the guys mentioned did actively seek him out then?

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Post by azania Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:16 am

I believe PWill did. Bradley mentioned him, Berto, SSM a few years ago.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:20 am

They mentioned him but never sought out a fight, there's a big difference between the two. As for Williams bit strange that considering he's had fights with Pavlik and Martinez lined up for the past two years and hasn't fought at Welterweight for years.

What weights would these proposed fights take place?

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Post by azania Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:24 am

PWill has claimed that he can make WW to fight Floyd or Pac. But do you think the others mentioned Pac for their love of him or because they want to fight him?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:28 am

What have any of them done to actively make a fight happen, saying you can make weight simply isn't enough

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Post by azania Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:33 am

I dont get that. Other than call him out (which they have done) and say they can make weight (which PWill said he can do) what more can they do? Sign for Top Rank?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:35 am

When have they called him out, what you do if you want to fight someone is make them an offer. Saying 'i'll fight Pacquiao' in order to get some publicity isn't calling him out, at no point have any of them other than Marquez (who wasn't happy with the terms) actively sought a fight with Pacquiao. They make the running not him

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Post by azania Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:40 am

You're nit picking. Calling him out is supposed to illicit a response. When SSM called him out a couple of years ago, was that not actively seeking a fight? Pac/Roach refused then.

Are Bradley etc supposed to shout from the rooftops? Come on IG.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:44 am

So you expect the pound for pound number to do all the running

Mosley said he would make 140lbs to fight Pacquiao and Roach did point blank refuse but at that point he'd only just beaten Hatton and fought the man who beat Mosley in Cotto, that's hardly going for an easy option

They haven't called him out, you don't say i'll fight him, do nothing about it and expect him to contact you, that's not how boxing works

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Post by Colonial Lion Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:52 am

Its fair to say that nearly all the top guys between lightweight and lightmiddleweight would jump at the chance to fight Pacquiao and the money he brings. Some boxers have been more vocal than others but equally Pacquiao and Top Rank have to entertain them. Mosely and Margarito were by no means the only guys wanting a piece of Pacquiao in the last 18 months.

My problem is that Pacquiao doesnt really have a weight now. He is seemingly considered giant for light welterweight but small for welterweight and above depending on the scenario. Cotto had to drained an extra couple at weltereight to "equalise" yet Mosely doesnt seemingly and Marquez would only happen at welterweight also.

Pacquiao says hes too small for lightmiddleweight - so why go there at all, and furthermore on what grounds from the Margarito fight is he too small? He was comfortable in the fight and there was no suggestion the weight was too much. He won a virtual shutout that in many cases would be a TKO or a corner stoppage.

The truth is the weight is not as important as the quality of the fighter hes facing. And Mosely is seen as damaged goods.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 15 Mar 2011, 12:55 am

Some people really don't have a clue or have a massive chip on their shoulders. Saying anyone would be willing is a bold statement when nobody has seeked him out, i'm not a fan of Pacquiao myself and think his recent opposition stinks but he can only fight those willing to fight him

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Post by Colonial Lion Tue 15 Mar 2011, 1:32 am

imperialghosty wrote:Some people really don't have a clue or have a massive chip on their shoulders. Saying anyone would be willing is a bold statement when nobody has seeked him out, i'm not a fan of Pacquiao myself and think his recent opposition stinks but he can only fight those willing to fight him

With the greatest respect, but how do you know who has/hasnt sought him out?

I recall on another thread you levelled strong criticism against Jones Jr for ot fighting Darius Michelszwecki. Now its fair to say that Michelswecki was hardly active or vocal about calling out Jones yet you felt it was Jones perogative to make the fight happen. I am not neccessarily disagreeing with this but I think its only fair then you apply it to Pacquiao.

Now on various occasions Marquez, Bradley, Williams and Martinez (not to mention guys like Morales) have called out Pacquiao. As I am sure you aware, there is a difference between calling someone out and actively pursuing it. But as azania points out - how are we to know and what else can you expect? Pacquiao has not responded to most of these except with various weight issues and the fact he has has not really settled on a weight doesnt make it easy for prospective opponents. Bradley and Marquez cannot go up to lightmiddle where Pacquiaos last fight was for instance. But when Martinez knocks Williams out and makes noise about a clash at lightmiddle then Pacquaio says hes too small and retreats down to welter.

Which brings me back to the point that a belive Pacquiao is simply picking and choosing based on opponents rather than weight. None of his last four opponents have been bringing great form to the fights with them. Mosely is winless in years and looking shaky, Margarito had been demolished and banned for a year, Cotto had suffered a punishing defeat and struggled to a split decision win over Clottey, Clottey off the back of his loss to Cotto. A pattern emerges. Then when you add to this that Cotto, Clottey and Margarito were Top Rank and Mosely has had to leave Golden Boy for this fight I dont think it takes much investigating to see what is going on here and what the agenda is. It certainly isnt about Pacquiao taking on the best available fights.

Naturally the money and status Pacquiao brings will make it an attractive fight for any of the top guys in these divisions. This has always been the case in boxing. However

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