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Do British Fighters Lack Class and Smarts?

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Imperial Ghosty
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Post by davidemore Thu 29 Dec 2011, 9:59 pm

Hey Guys,

Firstly let me say that i respect all boxers, every single one of them (but for the loons like Margacheat and Valero), and also that I am British.

So, after watching Froch vs Ward I got thinking about the top ten British fighters of the last 10 years. Like many of you i had Joe, Hatton and Lewis in there, as well as a few other familiar names. I also put Froch in there for his consistent level of opponent, varied style of opponent, traveling, will and victories.

But this then got me thinking about class and ring smarts, which but for Lewis on the ring smart front, all of our fighters seemed to lack when compared to their relative contemporaries. I'm not saying that British fighters are stupid, i am not, but compared to American counterparts, when it comes to the big fights, the world or elite level stuff, they seem to lack class and smarts, generalship perhaps.

Hatton vs Pac Man. A panic stricken Ricky fights face first, the rest is a donkey punch. No smarts and very little class in the way he stood by a Vegas swimming pool the next morning whilst drinking a cocktail and telling the reporter that Pac Man's punch would have... well... you know the word, it began with D.

Froch vs Ward. Froch shows a lack of smarts by not getting rough early, as Ward is quick to show his technical superiority. Although, in that fight he did show real class iin defeat.

Joe vs Jones. Joe shows a real lack of class by taunting Roy in the latter rounds and wiggling his groin like a stripper. He also shows a lack of smarts at times by sticking his chin right in Jones face, inviting him to hit it, thinking the crowd are impressed.

Khan vs Peterson. Striving for elite level Amir shows a real lack of smarts by dancing backwards and throwing sporadic arm punches in bunches. Bad because they didn't hurt Peterson, bad because they didn't help him look aggressive, bad because he tired and spent too much time shoving. The lack of class in the way he moaned afterwards was well, embarrassing. His defeat was hardly Williams vs Lara was it?

Hatton vs Mayweather. Although Hatton showed class in the build up, he looked pretty silly in the fight, falling for every trick Mayweather had like a little boy does with an older teenage brother... " go in the closet timmy, go on, go on, there's some sweets in there..." What a check inside left hook though, ka pow!

Maybe what some of these Brit's lacked in the big fights was comparative boxing skill? As when a man is being outdone, globally (TV), then often his actions reflect his frustration. Still, can't help but think that sometimes us Brit's don't see the bigger picture, and although admirable, our boxers more often than lot let it all go in the ring when it is so important to keep composed and together, especially when fighting some of the worlds best.

Thoughts?

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Post by Seanusarrilius Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:16 pm

Decent article, i would say sometimes. To be fair to Hattton he was trying to win against Mayweather, not survive, win, and his tactics were the only way he saw fit to do that. Khan fights stupid, fact. But we have had are canny operators too... let me think of some.

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Post by manos de piedra Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:29 pm

I tend to view Hatton and Froch as being overmatched in those examples. They might have been able to do a bit better - certainly in the Hatton/Pacquiao case. Froch v Kessler might be a better example of a fight Froch potentially lost through poor tactics, although I think himself and Kessler is always likely to go to the wire as they are fairly evenly matched. Could probably say Froch made hard work of the Johnson fight at times aswell getting caught repeatedly and occasionally switching off in rounds that were tight.

Khan I would probably agree, although again I would view his failing as primarily technical first and foremost in how to deal with pressure. But there were also plenty of times when he seemed to lack the tactical awareness to do something about his obvious failing.

Calzaghe and Lewis both showed showed over their career they could adapt and adjust when demanded so I would absolve them of any failings in that regard unless you could level some criticism at Lewis for being a bit lackadazical at times. Calzaghe was abit classless taunting Jones you could argue, but Jones did that kind of thing his whole career so what goes around.....I think it was more that Jones was so obviously finished that the showboating was a bit hollow.




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Post by davidemore Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:39 pm

great points seanus, win is key there indeed, but its how we approach no? and yes, great points too manos, but to be frank, do we lack the brains as Brits? for the big leagues?

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Post by BallchinianMuffwig Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:39 pm

I always have thought British fighters are sometimes a bit too textbook to mix it with the elite Americans who (got to be honest here) do possess more generalship and are trained for speed effectively.

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Post by davidemore Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:46 pm

ballchin sometimes i think we look a bit stupid in there, through no fault, based on ability and frustration and bright lights.

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Post by Waingro Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:47 pm

Im not sure mate we have had some top fighters like Calzaghe who was unbeatan and Lewis who is the second best heavyweight of all time in my opinion only Ali is better.

I think you make a good point about Khan imo he needs to learn from his mistakes more. He should never have agreed to fight Peterson in Washington when he was the champ there had not been big time boxing in washington for twenty years and you can see why it was a hometown decision. If that fight was anywhere else Khan would still be champ this shows how big a mistake it was for Khan to fight there. He also fought the wrong fight he should of kept it going after the first round where he destroyed Peterson but he let Peterson back into the fight. He needs to learn from this and be smarter and forgot about a fight with Mayweather.

Froch is a quality fighter he is also very honest he said he was not at his best against Ward and could beat him another time this is why I would like to see a rematch in Britain where I think he could win with a different gameplan. He said he did not start quick enough and did not put his shots together so he needs to change this for a rematch. Lets not write him off though remember many people did that against Aberham they said he would get into a war and get knocked out but he boxed behind a jab and totally schooled Abarham.

Then we have guys like Chisora, Macklin and Murry who had to fight against champs in their own back yard look what happened lol no surprise they did not get the wins I guess but they boxed very well and should have won so it might be harsh to say they lacked ring smarts.

We have quality guys like Brook who have shown great ring smarts this guy will be a world champion soon but I think guys like Cleverly need to learn more he gets into too many brawls when he should be focusd on boxing so I think he needs more ring smarts.


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Post by azania Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:49 pm

Waingro wrote:Im not sure mate we have had some top fighters like Calzaghe who was unbeatan and Lewis who is the second best heavyweight of all time in my opinion only Ali is better.

I think you make a good point about Khan imo he needs to learn from his mistakes more. He should never have agreed to fight Peterson in Washington when he was the champ there had not been big time boxing in washington for twenty years and you can see why it was a hometown decision. If that fight was anywhere else Khan would still be champ this shows how big a mistake it was for Khan to fight there. He also fought the wrong fight he should of kept it going after the first round where he destroyed Peterson but he let Peterson back into the fight. He needs to learn from this and be smarter and forgot about a fight with Mayweather.

Froch is a quality fighter he is also very honest he said he was not at his best against Ward and could beat him another time this is why I would like to see a rematch in Britain where I think he could win with a different gameplan. He said he did not start quick enough and did not put his shots together so he needs to change this for a rematch. Lets not write him off though remember many people did that against Aberham they said he would get into a war and get knocked out but he boxed behind a jab and totally schooled Abarham.

Then we have guys like Chisora, Macklin and Murry who had to fight against champs in their own back yard look what happened lol no surprise they did not get the wins I guess but they boxed very well and should have won so it might be harsh to say they lacked ring smarts.

We have quality guys like Brook who have shown great ring smarts this guy will be a world champion soon but I think guys like Cleverly need to learn more he gets into too many brawls when he should be focusd on boxing so I think he needs more ring smarts.


Shocked Shocked Shocked

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Post by Waingro Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:57 pm

azania wrote:
Waingro wrote:Im not sure mate we have had some top fighters like Calzaghe who was unbeatan and Lewis who is the second best heavyweight of all time in my opinion only Ali is better.

I think you make a good point about Khan imo he needs to learn from his mistakes more. He should never have agreed to fight Peterson in Washington when he was the champ there had not been big time boxing in washington for twenty years and you can see why it was a hometown decision. If that fight was anywhere else Khan would still be champ this shows how big a mistake it was for Khan to fight there. He also fought the wrong fight he should of kept it going after the first round where he destroyed Peterson but he let Peterson back into the fight. He needs to learn from this and be smarter and forgot about a fight with Mayweather.

Froch is a quality fighter he is also very honest he said he was not at his best against Ward and could beat him another time this is why I would like to see a rematch in Britain where I think he could win with a different gameplan. He said he did not start quick enough and did not put his shots together so he needs to change this for a rematch. Lets not write him off though remember many people did that against Aberham they said he would get into a war and get knocked out but he boxed behind a jab and totally schooled Abarham.

Then we have guys like Chisora, Macklin and Murry who had to fight against champs in their own back yard look what happened lol no surprise they did not get the wins I guess but they boxed very well and should have won so it might be harsh to say they lacked ring smarts.

We have quality guys like Brook who have shown great ring smarts this guy will be a world champion soon but I think guys like Cleverly need to learn more he gets into too many brawls when he should be focusd on boxing so I think he needs more ring smarts.


Shocked Shocked Shocked

Who is better than Lewis apart from Ali?? Maybe Marciano who never lost or Tyson who was not at his best when they fought but I reckon Lewis would beat those guys anytime. Foreman would be a dangerous fighter because of his power but Lewis would box behind his jab like he did against Tua and would catch Foreman coming in like Ali did.

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Post by davidemore Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:57 pm

waingro great points, especially like the froch and clev points. nathan fights like an amateur, there is no way he can go to elite if he fights like that against the big guns of america, pascal, dawson etc. hopkins would school him to i think. has the talent though so a little work on his defense and accuracy of punches will help. great points mate, fancy brook as the next star, shows real patience and willingness to work out an opponent, stepping up in class well now too, at a good pace under hearn. he has time and knows it and uses that time well i think. unlike say a degale. all the ability to look smart yet constantly looks classless and stupid.

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Post by azania Thu 29 Dec 2011, 10:59 pm

Waingro wrote:
azania wrote:
Waingro wrote:Im not sure mate we have had some top fighters like Calzaghe who was unbeatan and Lewis who is the second best heavyweight of all time in my opinion only Ali is better.

I think you make a good point about Khan imo he needs to learn from his mistakes more. He should never have agreed to fight Peterson in Washington when he was the champ there had not been big time boxing in washington for twenty years and you can see why it was a hometown decision. If that fight was anywhere else Khan would still be champ this shows how big a mistake it was for Khan to fight there. He also fought the wrong fight he should of kept it going after the first round where he destroyed Peterson but he let Peterson back into the fight. He needs to learn from this and be smarter and forgot about a fight with Mayweather.

Froch is a quality fighter he is also very honest he said he was not at his best against Ward and could beat him another time this is why I would like to see a rematch in Britain where I think he could win with a different gameplan. He said he did not start quick enough and did not put his shots together so he needs to change this for a rematch. Lets not write him off though remember many people did that against Aberham they said he would get into a war and get knocked out but he boxed behind a jab and totally schooled Abarham.

Then we have guys like Chisora, Macklin and Murry who had to fight against champs in their own back yard look what happened lol no surprise they did not get the wins I guess but they boxed very well and should have won so it might be harsh to say they lacked ring smarts.

We have quality guys like Brook who have shown great ring smarts this guy will be a world champion soon but I think guys like Cleverly need to learn more he gets into too many brawls when he should be focusd on boxing so I think he needs more ring smarts.


Shocked Shocked Shocked

Who is better than Lewis apart from Ali?? Maybe Marciano who never lost or Tyson who was not at his best when they fought but I reckon Lewis would beat those guys anytime. Foreman would be a dangerous fighter because of his power but Lewis would box behind his jab like he did against Tua and would catch Foreman coming in like Ali did.

censored

Holmes. Frazier, Holy, Foreman, Liston, Louis to name but a few. But thats not what this thread is about.

The second best HW ever doesn't get starched by the likes of McCall and Rahman. Never.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:10 pm

Holmes, Louis and Foreman we're agreed on Az but Liston, Holyfield and Frazier are all no's, just to prove a point I have Lewis ahead of Marciano, the horror.

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Post by Waingro Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:15 pm

azania wrote:
Waingro wrote:
azania wrote:
Waingro wrote:Im not sure mate we have had some top fighters like Calzaghe who was unbeatan and Lewis who is the second best heavyweight of all time in my opinion only Ali is better.

I think you make a good point about Khan imo he needs to learn from his mistakes more. He should never have agreed to fight Peterson in Washington when he was the champ there had not been big time boxing in washington for twenty years and you can see why it was a hometown decision. If that fight was anywhere else Khan would still be champ this shows how big a mistake it was for Khan to fight there. He also fought the wrong fight he should of kept it going after the first round where he destroyed Peterson but he let Peterson back into the fight. He needs to learn from this and be smarter and forgot about a fight with Mayweather.

Froch is a quality fighter he is also very honest he said he was not at his best against Ward and could beat him another time this is why I would like to see a rematch in Britain where I think he could win with a different gameplan. He said he did not start quick enough and did not put his shots together so he needs to change this for a rematch. Lets not write him off though remember many people did that against Aberham they said he would get into a war and get knocked out but he boxed behind a jab and totally schooled Abarham.

Then we have guys like Chisora, Macklin and Murry who had to fight against champs in their own back yard look what happened lol no surprise they did not get the wins I guess but they boxed very well and should have won so it might be harsh to say they lacked ring smarts.

We have quality guys like Brook who have shown great ring smarts this guy will be a world champion soon but I think guys like Cleverly need to learn more he gets into too many brawls when he should be focusd on boxing so I think he needs more ring smarts.


Shocked Shocked Shocked

Who is better than Lewis apart from Ali?? Maybe Marciano who never lost or Tyson who was not at his best when they fought but I reckon Lewis would beat those guys anytime. Foreman would be a dangerous fighter because of his power but Lewis would box behind his jab like he did against Tua and would catch Foreman coming in like Ali did.

censored

Holmes. Frazier, Holy, Foreman, Liston, Louis to name but a few. But thats not what this thread is about.

The second best HW ever doesn't get starched by the likes of McCall and Rahman. Never.

Not sure I agree mate none of those guys had as much skill as Lewis you also put Holyfield in who Lewis beat and got robbed against. Lewis was not at his best for his fights against McCall and Rahman he took those guys very lightly. The McCall fight was stopped far too early imo Lewis would have recovered and destroyed McCall and Rahman was not in Lewis class he just caught him with a fluke punch this can happen in boxing but Lewis showed his class and destroyed them in there rematches. You are right though this is a different thread about ring smarts so I will finish off on topic by saying Lewis had some of the best ring smarts of any heavyweight when he was at his best. He could destroy guys early in a fight or if he was wary of their power he could box behind the jab like he showed against Tua who was one of the hardest hitters of all time that is why he would beat guys like Foreman.


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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:16 pm

Az lets make a pact on this one, agreed?

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Post by azania Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:25 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Az lets make a pact on this one, agreed?

Sorry. I'd have those guys above Lewis. Their only problem is that they came in an era where Ali dominated. Without Ali, Liston would be rated very highly and Frazier would also be a huge champ (without Foreman also). As for Holy, that he gave a peak Lewis fits in their rematch lends me to believe that at his peak he would have beaten him.

I always felt that Lewis was vulnerable and couldn't take a punch as well as he should.

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Post by azania Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:26 pm

Waingro

I get breathless when I read your posts. Any chance of some punctuations please?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:29 pm

With Holyfield he has those losses to Bowe and Moorer combined with losing to Lewis, he has too many top level losses to be considered a genuine top ten fighter. As for Liston and Frazier they benefitted from having Ali as much as anything much like Foreman you have a ready made excuse for their losses, it was Muhammad Ali, doesn't hurt Frazier as much as Liston as put up an almighty struggle arguably beating the life from Ali. Liston on the other hand fine fighter as he was got shown up by the young man for what he was, a flat track bully who could give it as well as anyone but turn the tables and he couldn't cope.

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Post by KO-KING Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:37 pm

joe had class and ring smarts

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Post by azania Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:38 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:With Holyfield he has those losses to Bowe and Moorer combined with losing to Lewis, he has too many top level losses to be considered a genuine top ten fighter. As for Liston and Frazier they benefitted from having Ali as much as anything much like Foreman you have a ready made excuse for their losses, it was Muhammad Ali, doesn't hurt Frazier as much as Liston as put up an almighty struggle arguably beating the life from Ali. Liston on the other hand fine fighter as he was got shown up by the young man for what he was, a flat track bully who could give it as well as anyone but turn the tables and he couldn't cope.

That#s my problem with Holy. Too inconsistent. I also have my doubt as to how he recovered from a career ending illness to post such a win against Tyson. Perhaps Evan Field could answer. I wont argue too much as to who would win. But peak for peak I'd back Holy.

The type of fighter Frazier was, was just all wrong for Lewis. A fast pressure fighter with awesome skills will always give Lewis serious problems. Lewis enjoyed dominating from the centre and keeping opponents off with his jab. Frazier would not allow him that comfort and will bob and weave whilst backing him up and punding his ribs before working upstairs.

I dont agree that Liston got shown up by Ali and being a bully. Ali would have beaten any HW in history that night. Unfortunate for Liston.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:51 pm

Not the fact Liston lost but the manner in which he lost, can't see many great heavyweights quitting the way he did as soon as the going got tough.

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Post by azania Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:52 pm

Waingro wrote:
azania wrote:
Waingro wrote:
azania wrote:
Waingro wrote:Im not sure mate we have had some top fighters like Calzaghe who was unbeatan and Lewis who is the second best heavyweight of all time in my opinion only Ali is better.

I think you make a good point about Khan imo he needs to learn from his mistakes more. He should never have agreed to fight Peterson in Washington when he was the champ there had not been big time boxing in washington for twenty years and you can see why it was a hometown decision. If that fight was anywhere else Khan would still be champ this shows how big a mistake it was for Khan to fight there. He also fought the wrong fight he should of kept it going after the first round where he destroyed Peterson but he let Peterson back into the fight. He needs to learn from this and be smarter and forgot about a fight with Mayweather.

Froch is a quality fighter he is also very honest he said he was not at his best against Ward and could beat him another time this is why I would like to see a rematch in Britain where I think he could win with a different gameplan. He said he did not start quick enough and did not put his shots together so he needs to change this for a rematch. Lets not write him off though remember many people did that against Aberham they said he would get into a war and get knocked out but he boxed behind a jab and totally schooled Abarham.

Then we have guys like Chisora, Macklin and Murry who had to fight against champs in their own back yard look what happened lol no surprise they did not get the wins I guess but they boxed very well and should have won so it might be harsh to say they lacked ring smarts.

We have quality guys like Brook who have shown great ring smarts this guy will be a world champion soon but I think guys like Cleverly need to learn more he gets into too many brawls when he should be focusd on boxing so I think he needs more ring smarts.


Shocked Shocked Shocked

Who is better than Lewis apart from Ali?? Maybe Marciano who never lost or Tyson who was not at his best when they fought but I reckon Lewis would beat those guys anytime. Foreman would be a dangerous fighter because of his power but Lewis would box behind his jab like he did against Tua and would catch Foreman coming in like Ali did.

censored

Holmes. Frazier, Holy, Foreman, Liston, Louis to name but a few. But thats not what this thread is about.

The second best HW ever doesn't get starched by the likes of McCall and Rahman. Never.

Not sure I agree mate none of those guys had as much skill as Lewis you also put Holyfield in who Lewis beat and got robbed against. Lewis was not at his best for his fights against McCall and Rahman he took those guys very lightly. The McCall fight was stopped far too early imo Lewis would have recovered and destroyed McCall and Rahman was not in Lewis class he just caught him with a fluke punch this can happen in boxing but Lewis showed his class and destroyed them in there rematches. You are right though this is a different thread about ring smarts so I will finish off on topic by saying Lewis had some of the best ring smarts of any heavyweight when he was at his best. He could destroy guys early in a fight or if he was wary of their power he could box behind the jab like he showed against Tua who was one of the hardest hitters of all time that is why he would beat guys like Foreman.


Fluke punch? He meant to throw it. Aimed it and it landed. No fluke there. Also lets not forget that McCall was in the middle of a mental breakdown during their rematch. And when standing with hands down,. Lewis was still apprenhensive. His punches were literally innefective also.

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Post by azania Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:53 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Not the fact Liston lost but the manner in which he lost, can't see many great heavyweights quitting the way he did as soon as the going got tough.

Like Duran quit? (yes I know not a HW). I take it you dont buy the damaged shoulder excuse?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:54 pm

That was a sign of class from Lewis more than anything Az, in the most inhumane of sports Lewis still had his humanity, have more respect for his actions as they were than had he gone in all guns blazing.

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Post by azania Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:56 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:That was a sign of class from Lewis more than anything Az, in the most inhumane of sports Lewis still had his humanity, have more respect for his actions as they were than had he gone in all guns blazing.

Oh please. In the realms of excuses, this one has to be right up there somewhere. Lewis said he thought Mc was playing possum.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:57 pm

azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Not the fact Liston lost but the manner in which he lost, can't see many great heavyweights quitting the way he did as soon as the going got tough.

Like Duran quit? (yes I know not a HW). I take it you dont buy the damaged shoulder excuse?

It took years for Duran to heal the wounds that No Mas caused, it wasn't the done thing but his overall career has enough on it to make up for it something Liston didn't manage especially in the rematch. Duran could easily have stayed down after the first Hearns knockdown for instance but kept getting up until he was quite literally seperated from his senses. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 29 Dec 2011, 11:59 pm

azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:That was a sign of class from Lewis more than anything Az, in the most inhumane of sports Lewis still had his humanity, have more respect for his actions as they were than had he gone in all guns blazing.

Oh please. In the realms of excuses, this one has to be right up there somewhere. Lewis said he thought Mc was playing possum.

So you think it would have been more classy for him to go in all guns blazing? He has one eye on the referee at all times looking for him to intervene, with a defenceless opponent in front of him I think Lewis did the right thing.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:01 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:
azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Not the fact Liston lost but the manner in which he lost, can't see many great heavyweights quitting the way he did as soon as the going got tough.

Like Duran quit? (yes I know not a HW). I take it you dont buy the damaged shoulder excuse?

It took years for Duran to heal the wounds that No Mas caused, it wasn't the done thing but his overall career has enough on it to make up for it something Liston didn't manage especially in the rematch. Duran could easily have stayed down after the first Hearns knockdown for instance but kept getting up until he was quite literally seperated from his senses. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Liston had done enough prior to Ali to cement his status as one of the best. The rematch is clouded in controversy. Even if he didn't dive, he could have simply been caught cold. The bottom line is that Ali destroyed his legacy (I sound like 'gro there so excuse me).

Liston had got off the floor and won in previous fights. So we can't question his minerals.

I for one have never held the no mas fight against Duran. He will always be one of my favourites.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:04 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:
azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:That was a sign of class from Lewis more than anything Az, in the most inhumane of sports Lewis still had his humanity, have more respect for his actions as they were than had he gone in all guns blazing.

Oh please. In the realms of excuses, this one has to be right up there somewhere. Lewis said he thought Mc was playing possum.

So you think it would have been more classy for him to go in all guns blazing? He has one eye on the referee at all times looking for him to intervene, with a defenceless opponent in front of him I think Lewis did the right thing.

Its a fighter's instinct to finish a fight as soon as possible. Its not as though he was teetering due to punches and Lewis was scared of killing him or inflicting hurt on him.

This is the first time I've heard that excuse before. Just when I thought I'd seen it all, this excuse comes up.

Its a ridiculous excuse but there it is.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:04 am

I don't think the baddest man on the planet quits as Liston did, which to be fair to Tyson for instance he never did, took his beatings like a man til the end.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:08 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I don't think the baddest man on the planet quits as Liston did, which to be fair to Tyson for instance he never did, took his beatings like a man til the end.

Like Duran who was the personification of latino machismo? Like Cotto who took the knee?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:13 am

Duran quitting doesn't mean you let Liston off for doing the same thing.

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Post by The genius of PBF Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:21 am

azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:With Holyfield he has those losses to Bowe and Moorer combined with losing to Lewis, he has too many top level losses to be considered a genuine top ten fighter. As for Liston and Frazier they benefitted from having Ali as much as anything much like Foreman you have a ready made excuse for their losses, it was Muhammad Ali, doesn't hurt Frazier as much as Liston as put up an almighty struggle arguably beating the life from Ali. Liston on the other hand fine fighter as he was got shown up by the young man for what he was, a flat track bully who could give it as well as anyone but turn the tables and he couldn't cope.

That#s my problem with Holy. Too inconsistent. I also have my doubt as to how he recovered from a career ending illness to post such a win against Tyson. Perhaps Evan Field could answer. I wont argue too much as to who would win. But peak for peak I'd back Holy.

The type of fighter Frazier was, was just all wrong for Lewis. A fast pressure fighter with awesome skills will always give Lewis serious problems. Lewis enjoyed dominating from the centre and keeping opponents off with his jab. Frazier would not allow him that comfort and will bob and weave whilst backing him up and punding his ribs before working upstairs.

I dont agree that Liston got shown up by Ali and being a bully. Ali would have beaten any HW in history that night. Unfortunate for Liston.

Totally agree I think a peak Frazier is the only heavyweight that beats a peak Lewis.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 7:49 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Duran quitting doesn't mean you let Liston off for doing the same thing.

Didn't say it did but its not something I would use as a stick to beat him with. Many boxers have done exactly the same thing in the past and more will do so in the future,

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Post by davidemore Fri 30 Dec 2011, 8:53 am

remember gang, when talking about peak, its the length that must be considered. no between the hours of 6am and 9.36 am on July 6th 1999 Lewis was deadly. Wink

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Post by AlexHuckerby Fri 30 Dec 2011, 9:12 am

Jesus, Az how do you always manage to bring a topic back round to Heavyweights?

Anywho back to the original point by the WUM, during the Murray/Rios fight Emmanuel Steward was talking about something on similar lines, he said a fair few things I disagree with like Brits aren't used to beign in wars which was a tad baffling, but he also said that Brits aren't used to being on such a big stage in a different country. In other words meaning they aren't quite as glamoured as the americans and aren't quite as used to it, I remember Michael Jennings talking about his fight with Cotto and he said how weird it was having so much attention and the whole stage was so much bigger than normal.

Perhaps this is a reason as to why some of the Brits don't perform quite as well, however for guys like Hatton who had been given a bit of glamour over here I think he was just overmatched. What other tactics could he have pulled against Mayweather other than to swarm him and "Mug him off". He was never going to sit back and outjab and pick holes against Mayweather. He used the same tactics he did on his best ever win against Tszyu, because if he tried to box against the very elite, he would have been beaten easier. Except for Pac, of course we don't know what would ahve happened, but he went in trying to use different tactics but like Roach said, the second Hatton gets tagged he reverts back to swarming Hatton and it's just what happens, there was no way he was ever going to win either fights he lost.

Lewis, although he did have fantastic ring smarts when he was on form and taking his opponent seriously, was an idiot in the ring really. Clowning about against Rahman acting like it was oh so easy, then gets knocked out because of it, smart? No. Messing about with Briggs, getting tagged with left hook after left hook for his troubles, not really starting or bothering to get going, showing a complete lack of respect for his opponent, smart? No.

Khan has never shown any particular adaptability, so nothing new there.

To be honest, we just haven't had many fighters that have been 100% complete really.

One fighter that I have been majorly impressed about in terms of ring generalship and maturity has been Kell Brook however, the way in which he moves, his patience in the ring to find openings. In his last fight he had Galarza in big trouble, you see so often a guy get his opponent hurt whilst moving forward and put him on the ropes and just gets tied up and not manage to finish him off and make a hash of it, Brook thought about it for a split second, took a step back and then used his jab to break the defense and then used his right hand, keeping the pressure on his opponent but managing to keep the distance correct to not et tied up. Was very impressed.

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Post by superflyweight Fri 30 Dec 2011, 9:15 am

Got to love Waingro winding up Az by suggesting that Marciano might be the second best heavyweight of all time.

If that's not a sign of some intelligent life and a hidden wit, then I'm not sure what is?

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:14 am

Alex

Quit calling me jesus please. Anyway, back on topic. Steward was talking out of his rear end when he made that comment. Tell him that Nigel Benn, Eubank and others were involved in terrific wars. But on the whole, with the exception of a few fighters, Brits simply have not been good enough.

I'll reserve judgement on Brook until he meets a live opponent as opposed to different types of punch-bags.

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Post by AlexHuckerby Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:17 am

Brook has fought many fighters that haven't been punch bags, just because you think that every fighter that isn't world class is a punch bag for an upcoming prospect doesn't make it so.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:22 am

AlexHuckerby wrote:Brook has fought many fighters that haven't been punch bags, just because you think that every fighter that isn't world class is a punch bag for an upcoming prospect doesn't make it so.

He's fought fighters he's expected to beat. His last opponent wasn't the sternest test. Basically a part-time burger flipper and part time boxer. He needs to step up and fight a contender before a title shot is even considered.

There's something about his style which I believe will see him in trouble. He lacks a little fluidity.

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Post by AlexHuckerby Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:34 am

He lacks fluidity? I think he's one of the most fluid boxers this country has produced in years. He has fought guys that were meant to give him tests at domestic level such as Michael Jennings. It's not his fault he's looked at a complete other level to guys that were meant to test him.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:48 am

AlexHuckerby wrote:He lacks fluidity? I think he's one of the most fluid boxers this country has produced in years. He has fought guys that were meant to give him tests at domestic level such as Michael Jennings. It's not his fault he's looked at a complete other level to guys that were meant to test him.

he has very good footwork and decent hand-speed. But my problem is that he doesn't move much above the waist to evade ounches. He uses his gloves to block punches. Perhaps I'm being too harsh on him. I rate im but would like to see him tested. His last opponent was simply woeful though. Plus his fight with jennings was one of the most boring fights I've had the misfurtune to watch. He had no idea and was trying to look flashy instead of getting the job done.

He should step up and fight someone with ambition.

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Post by AlexHuckerby Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:00 am

Az, it's so blatantly obvious you are talking out of something which isn't your mouth. Basically what you're saying is he doesn't have good head movement, well again you're absolutely completely wrong, perhaps you should have a little look again at him, his head movement is very good, in his last fight against Galarza he did a pulled straight right hand that landed perfectly on Galarza. Which requires incredible reflexes and brilliant head movement.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:06 am

I haven't mentioned head movement. I said he doesn't move much from above the waist ie no rocking or rolling. His back is very straight and still which becomes apparent when he throws a jab. He doesn't lean into it as much as he should do hence he doesn't get as much distance as he can.

Galarza was a joke of an opponent to be fair. The bloke is a short order chef who bnoxes to suppliment his income. He needs to fight a top 10 guy seieng as he is ranked in the top 10.

Yep he has good reflexes, good speed and power. All the attributes. But to get him into an elite level fighter he needs to challenge himself. His last few opponents have been professional opponents. He is past the learning stage and needs to step up.

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Post by AlexHuckerby Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:08 am

Az, you're an incredible man and have untold willpower.

Generally when you say he has no movement above the waist I tend to think you're saying the man has no head movement.

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Post by AlexHuckerby Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:09 am

Also, I don't know if you didn't realise but Galarza was a step down due to just wanting to look good and impressing in America, not every fight is a legacy building fight, occassionally, (Especially) if you're fighting in America for the first time when you're being tipped for big things you want to look good, it wasn't an opponent that was meant to seriously test him, it was an opponent that would try hard and make him look good.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:13 am

AlexHuckerby wrote:Az, you're an incredible man and have untold willpower.

Generally when you say he has no movement above the waist I tend to think you're saying the man has no head movement.

I tend to study fighters style and see where improvements can be made. Dont get me wrong. Brook looks the part. He is just too upright and should he lean forward his jab would be more effective and give him greater range. Like all Ingle fighters, they rely ion reflex. Kell has good reflexes. No arguments.

Watch his fights again. Look at his very rigid upright stance. He compensates for than with having excellent bounce and footwork. He is good, but can be better. I expect big things for someone with his talent.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:14 am

AlexHuckerby wrote:Also, I don't know if you didn't realise but Galarza was a step down due to just wanting to look good and impressing in America, not every fight is a legacy building fight, occassionally, (Especially) if you're fighting in America for the first time when you're being tipped for big things you want to look good, it wasn't an opponent that was meant to seriously test him, it was an opponent that would try hard and make him look good.

He's had enough fights to make him look good. Time to step up.

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Post by AlexHuckerby Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:15 am

Sounds as though next fight that will be happening, but it was his American debut, can be excused for it in my opinion.

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Post by azania Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:19 am

I'll wait and see. He is experienced enough, top 10 ranked without fighting a top 15 ranked fighter. And is still given walking bags to look good against. Step it up.

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Post by AlexHuckerby Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:21 am

The guy before Galarza was top 10.

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