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The 606v2 Cricket Hall of Fame Part 2

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Post by Mike Selig Sat 07 Jan 2012, 3:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

NOTE: This is the second part of the 606v2 Cricket Hall of Fame thread. The first part can be found here: https://www.606v2.com/t17447-the-606v2-cricket-hall-of-fame-part-1

kwinigolfer wrote:Surely, it doesn't matter how fast he was compared to those of the 70's and later? There is exemplary anecdotal evidence that he was the fastest of the early Lindwall era and for thirty years before.

Precisely, and the only thing that really matters. He was undoubtedly faster than anything had been before, at the time, or shortly afterwards. But we should be wary of people who say "I saw Larwood and Thompson bowl, and Larwood was as fast": they are using different frames of reference for comparison.

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Post by Shelsey93 Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:48 pm

If we are limited to three it will be George Lohmann, Ranji and Dravid. But there are many others I would like to see considered.

Pre-war

I would say there are a good selection of pre-war players in already and, other than Woolley, they often seem to be indisputable cases. However, the following have been terribly hard done by not to be in the ICC list:

George Lohmann - 112 wickets @ 10.75
KS Ranjitsinhji - FC average of 56 and Test average of 45, mostly compiled before 1902
Les Ames - Only regular keeper I can find that averaged 40 over a prolonged career in the pre-Gilchrist era

Post war

Rahul Dravid - A bona fide great as I discussed in my recent article. And retired in perfect time for inclusion in this round of the Hall of Fame*
Bob Willis - 325 Test wickets
Jeff Thomson

Left-field

Mahadevan Sathasivam - Ceylon's legendary cricketer of the pre-Test era. Only got to play 11 first-class games though
Basil d'Oliveira - His political impact on the game. Not a bad cricketer either

Two left-fields

Dickie Bird - If post-cricket careers can enhance a players chances of being in the Hall of Fame, can umpires be included for their umpiring careers exclusively?

* Whilst he will still play IPL so do Warne, Murali and Gilchrist so I would say he is eligible

---

I don't yet know which way I'd vote on these (initial thoughts would probably be No on most) but they would make for interesting discussion.


Last edited by Shelsey93 on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:51 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
.... My list, therefore, contains more Ozzies than Poms, a couple of South Africans and a West Indian ....

.... Learie Constantine ....

Oh Hoggy, that wasn't nice. Getting my hopes up that you were about to nominate a certain immensely valuable West Indian batsman and then to cruelly dash them! Sad

I wouldn't dream of taking the honour of putting his name forward away from you Guildford!

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 12 Mar 2012, 4:39 pm

Thanks, Hoggy.

Given that all time greats such as Greenidge and Kanhai didn't make it first time round, I wouldn't hold out much hope for a player who was merely immensely valuable. Therefore a tactical retreat for now. Maybe another day.

The three I'll nominate now are:

1. John Arlott - the wise and knowledgeable drinking friend we each wish we had. [Just don't tell Shelsey - he'll want to nominate Bill Frindall! Wink ]

2. Basil D'Oliveira - the man at the centre of the D'Oliveira Affair and the only one to emerge with dignity.

3. Fred Titmus - inspired by Hoggy's reference to Athol Rowan, a classic example of the triumph of irrepressible spirit over physical adversity.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 12 Mar 2012, 5:26 pm

Shelsey93 wrote: .... others I would like to see considered ....

Post war

.... Jeff Thomson

Two left-fields

.... Dickie Bird - If post-cricket careers can enhance a players chances of being in the Hall of Fame, can umpires be included for their umpiring careers exclusively?


Shelsey - Thomson is an interesting call.

He's certainly not a forgotten cricketer but I don't think he's generally held in a particularly high regard these days. However, his impact on the game and opposing teams at the time seemed to be massive. I'm unsure why perceptions then and now have changed so much.

Certainly no issue with an umpire being nominated. Bird probably wouldn't get a 'Yes' from me but that's a debate for another day.


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Post by Mike Selig Mon 12 Mar 2012, 5:40 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
3. Fred Titmus - inspired by Hoggy's reference to Athol Rowan, a classic example of the triumph of irrepressible spirit over physical adversity.

Fantastic shout that one, I was going to mention him.

Also glad Hoggy has nominated Stan McCabe.

Can I do a tactical "wait and see" before giving my 3 nominees? I suppose that is a bit besides the point, it is for me to decide which 3 I think are most worthy.

Bob Woolmer would come top of the list. For services to coaching.
Jonty Rhodes: I look forward to debating whether he was truly revolutionary or merely a case of being in the right place at the right time.
3rd one is a tough call between Bevan and Jayasuriya. But Bevan, albeit great, was simply great at what many others had done very well previously, that is, finish a one-day innings. Did he invent the role of the finisher? No, Neil Fairbrother was before his time for one.
Jayasuriya on the other hand was the first proper batsman to play the way he did in ODI cricket, paving the way for Gilchrist, Shewag, Gayle, etc. I therefore nominate Jayasuriya.

With apologies to Hoggy for nominating recent players, but that's the era I feel most qualified to comment on.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:14 pm

No need to apologise Mike.
As I say, most of the more recent players being nominated are pefectly worthy candidates, and there's bound to be more recent players in the HoF than those from pre-war simply because there are more players around these days.
I'm sure with myself and some of the other 'Old Uns' on this board, the older players will be well represented though.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:13 pm

Among suggestions already made I agree that Les Ames and Tich Freeman are worth debating.

At the risk of starting the debate prematurely it will be interesting to see whether the bowler who took the second highest number of first class wickets (Freeman) does any better than the batsman who scored the second highest number of first class runs (Woolley) Very Happy

I don't yet know much about Ponsford. But I like this quote: Bill O'Reilly said of Ponsford, "He spoke rarely and even then only if he could improve on silence. As someone who was the recipient of many a school report saying "could contribute more in class" I feel somewhat of a bond to Ponsford Wink


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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:32 pm

Hasten to add that three names I mentioned above are not necessarily my nominations, if others are going to put them forward. On that score I certainly think that d'Oliveira must come into the reckoning if, as I would advocate, HoF includes impact on history of the game. Also Arlott, for services to the human voice.

I think Patsy Hendren has got to be a very strong candidate. I will nominate him now.


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Post by Shelsey93 Sat 17 Mar 2012, 2:01 pm

Seeing as this discussion has stalled I have a proposal, which Fists is free to either accept or reject as he sees fit.

I'm going to list the names which, based on cases put forward so far and their basic credentials, should definitely at least be debated:

Les Ames
John Arlott
Learie Constantine
Basil d'Oliveira
Rahul Dravid
Clem Hill
Sanath Jayasuriya
Stan McCabe
George Lohmann
Bill Ponsford
K.S. Ranjitsinhji
Jonty Rhodes
Maurice Tate
Fred Titmus
Bob Woolmer

That is 15 names and we could then, after some brief discussion (and perhaps individual nominations), add another 10 so that we have 25 more players to consider in total.

This is just a proposal so please don't shoot me if this isn't how you'd like to proceed Wink

However, I feel that just nominating 3 each is awkward as there are some who most of us would agree need to be debated.

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Post by ShahenshahG Sat 17 Mar 2012, 4:28 pm

I second Constantine, d'oliveira, Dravid, Jayasuriya, Woolmer and Rhodes will read a few days before deciding on the others. Fantastic list though shelsey,

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 17 Mar 2012, 6:38 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:Seeing as this discussion has stalled I have a proposal, which Fists is free to either accept or reject as he sees fit.

I'm going to list the names which, based on cases put forward so far and their basic credentials, should definitely at least be debated:

Les Ames
John Arlott
Learie Constantine
Basil d'Oliveira
Rahul Dravid
Clem Hill
Sanath Jayasuriya
Stan McCabe
George Lohmann
Bill Ponsford
K.S. Ranjitsinhji
Jonty Rhodes
Maurice Tate
Fred Titmus
Bob Woolmer

That is 15 names and we could then, after some brief discussion (and perhaps individual nominations), add another 10 so that we have 25 more players to consider in total.

This is just a proposal so please don't shoot me if this isn't how you'd like to proceed Wink

However, I feel that just nominating 3 each is awkward as there are some who most of us would agree need to be debated.

Seems fine. No problem if we got the number up to, say, 30. I'm conscious that Hoggy in particular came up with quite a few interesting names when matters were first considered.

Would the intention be to debate and vote on five every fortnight as we've been doing for those from the ICC List? Presumably the nominators would make a case for their nominees.

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Post by Shelsey93 Sat 17 Mar 2012, 7:15 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Shelsey93 wrote:Seeing as this discussion has stalled I have a proposal, which Fists is free to either accept or reject as he sees fit.

I'm going to list the names which, based on cases put forward so far and their basic credentials, should definitely at least be debated:

Les Ames
John Arlott
Learie Constantine
Basil d'Oliveira
Rahul Dravid
Clem Hill
Sanath Jayasuriya
Stan McCabe
George Lohmann
Bill Ponsford
K.S. Ranjitsinhji
Jonty Rhodes
Maurice Tate
Fred Titmus
Bob Woolmer

That is 15 names and we could then, after some brief discussion (and perhaps individual nominations), add another 10 so that we have 25 more players to consider in total.

This is just a proposal so please don't shoot me if this isn't how you'd like to proceed Wink

However, I feel that just nominating 3 each is awkward as there are some who most of us would agree need to be debated.

Seems fine. No problem if we got the number up to, say, 30. I'm conscious that Hoggy in particular came up with quite a few interesting names when matters were first considered.

Would the intention be to debate and vote on five every fortnight as we've been doing for those from the ICC List? Presumably the nominators would make a case for their nominees.

I assumed that that is the way thing were going to happen anyway. I don't know how things work on the Boxing Hall of Fame but obviously the nominator would, presumably, wish to argue in favour of their candidate.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Sat 17 Mar 2012, 7:44 pm

But we really do need to include Patsy Hendren in the list. He is a very strong candidate on any criteria

I would also support the suggestion made earlier in the thread by another poster of debating Tich Freeman

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 17 Mar 2012, 7:50 pm

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:But we really do need to include Patsy Hendren in the list. He is a very strong candidate on any criteria

I would also support the suggestion made earlier in the thread by another poster of debating Tich Freeman
Shelsey's list of 15 seems to have just grown to 17. Very Happy

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Sat 17 Mar 2012, 9:09 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Corporalhumblebucket wrote:But we really do need to include Patsy Hendren in the list. He is a very strong candidate on any criteria

I would also support the suggestion made earlier in the thread by another poster of debating Tich Freeman
Shelsey's list of 15 seems to have just grown to 17. Very Happy

Add in the rest of the players I initially suggested + Shaun Pollock, Mike Proctor, Bob willis and Jeff Thompson and there's our 30 Wink

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 17 Mar 2012, 9:22 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

Add in the rest of the players I initially suggested + Shaun Pollock, Mike Proctor, Bob willis and Jeff Thompson and there's our 30 Wink
With no room for Dennis Amiss! Whistle

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Sat 17 Mar 2012, 9:30 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:

Add in the rest of the players I initially suggested + Shaun Pollock, Mike Proctor, Bob willis and Jeff Thompson and there's our 30 Wink
With no room for Dennis Amiss! Whistle

I'm sure we could squeeze him in.
How about Dermot Reeve? Very Happy

Seriously though, Willis'll do as the Warks representative for now.

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Post by Shelsey93 Sat 17 Mar 2012, 9:36 pm

If we have Mike Proctor should we also perhaps have Vince van der Bijl??

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Sat 17 Mar 2012, 9:47 pm

Jason Ratcliffe - who caused such a stir with his premature retirement from international cricket ... Laugh

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Post by Shelsey93 Sat 17 Mar 2012, 9:56 pm

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Jason Ratcliffe - who caused such a stir with his premature retirement from international cricket ... Laugh

How long till somebody suggests Linley or Jason Roy laughing

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Sat 17 Mar 2012, 10:05 pm

Give it a few weeks Shelsey. But if the Viscount takes a few wickets in the first match or Le Roi king scores a century off 70 balls then you may well be right.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 17 Mar 2012, 10:10 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:
Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Jason Ratcliffe - who caused such a stir with his premature retirement from international cricket ... Laugh

How long till somebody suggests Linley or Jason Roy laughing

WHAT? I hadn't realised they weren't already in!

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Mon 19 Mar 2012, 10:30 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:..... How about Dermot Reeve? Very Happy
I supported Frank Woolley as the outstanding example of his genre of players. Perhaps Reeve could also be supported - on the basis that he was the ultimate utility player. Very Happy Or possibly he is up against John Arlott for the poetic quality of his utterances on cricket? Whistle Or possibly he could score well on the quality of his personal appearance in front of the camera? Clearly a man who take more care about the cut of his cloth than, say, Jack Russell.....

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Post by Mike Selig Mon 19 Mar 2012, 11:11 pm

I would like to see Bevan debated, he did have a tremendous one-day record, with some simply genius innings for what was a very dominant Australian side.

Shaun Pollock is a good shout.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:55 am

At the risk of being stumped for being out gardening a bit too long, I was going to nominate Hedley Verity in addition to Ames and Ponsford.

What does everyone think of Deadley Hedley?

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Post by guildfordbat Tue 20 Mar 2012, 3:28 pm

Hi Kwini - Deadley Hedley? Quite appropriate as there's more than a shade of Deadly Derek Underwood about him.

Happy for Verity to be considered.

Fists - sorry to add to your workload but I think we need some executive direction and ruling to take things forward. Shelsey made suggestions on this thread at the weekend which seemed sensible and workable (although starting numbers may need to be upped).

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Thu 22 Mar 2012, 5:01 pm

Tumbleweed

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:55 pm

Hedley Verity "However, against Surrey, Yorkshire conceded 560 runs and Verity, frustrated at the lack of a declaration, first bowled extremely negatively and then bowled two underarm deliveries that the umpire called no ball as Verity had not informed the batsmen of his intention."

I thought that there was rule that if you bowl underarm you are kept out of the HoF for at least one round of voting. Very Happy

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Post by Guest Mon 26 Mar 2012, 6:29 pm

the thread's gone dead....

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Post by Shelsey93 Mon 26 Mar 2012, 7:02 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:the thread's gone dead....

I sent Fists a PM on Sat and he said he'd be on to it shortly

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 26 Mar 2012, 7:51 pm

I think Fists has been busy selecting his team for CF's CC Fantasy League. Wink

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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 27 Mar 2012, 3:14 pm

Right then, let us start with this following 5:

Les Ames
John Arlott
Learie Constantine
Basil d'Oliveira
Rahul Dravid

Following Shelsey's list for now (thanks for writing one up, Shelsey), and we can worry about any others after that.

Thanks.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Tue 27 Mar 2012, 5:13 pm

Interesting.
You'd have to say that two of those (Ames and Dravid) are strong candidates based purely on their playing stats.
But the other three are strong candidates (IMHO) for other reasons. Arlott for his journalism and commentary. d'Oliveira and Constantine for politcal issues.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Tue 27 Mar 2012, 10:10 pm

Learie Constantine is clearly a figure of some historical significance. His actual cricketing achievements on the field were rather limited. A question for me is whether some of his other achievements, notably some of his actions in fighting racism, are sufficiently closely related to cricket for him to qualify for HoF. I have an open mind on this, but I raise the question. (By comparison, d'Oliveira's historical significance in relation to apartheid is completely bound up with the history of cricket.)

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 27 Mar 2012, 10:31 pm

some initial thoughts from me:

Les Ames: as a member of the keeper's union I would like to see more keepers included Very Happy. Well ahead of his time (by about 60 years) in the sense that he was also a proper batsman. Holds the record for the number of first class stumpings too.

John Arlott: before my time unfortunately, but by all accounts probably the finest commentator the game has seen.

Learie Constantine: I confess I don't know a huge amount of the specifics of his actions in fighting racism, but I very strongly believe these should be taken into consideration when considering his case for inclusion. Those who remember the very early days of this thread may recall that I strongly pushed for Andy Flower's inclusion in the original 30. This was in no small part due to his heroic (I believe the word - somewhat overused - is utterly appropriate here) stance against the Mugabe regime at the 03 world cup.

Basil D'Oliveira: a central figure in SA's exclusion from International sport and the eventual downfall of the apartheid regime. Conducted himself with dignity throughout. May need to re-read accounts of the time to fully get to the bottom of his exact role though.

Rahul Dravid: the glue that held India's batting together for many years. (Too) often in Tendulkar's shadow, but a pretty similar record in fact. Also holds the record for the number of test match catches.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Tue 27 Mar 2012, 10:46 pm

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Learie Constantine is clearly a figure of some historical significance. His actual cricketing achievements on the field were rather limited. A question for me is whether some of his other achievements, notably some of his actions in fighting racism, are sufficiently closely related to cricket for him to qualify for HoF. I have an open mind on this, but I raise the question. (By comparison, d'Oliveira's historical significance in relation to apartheid is completely bound up with the history of cricket.)

While I agree that a lot of Constantine's political significance did not, particularly, revolve around his cricket career, I do think he was one of the first black players to prove to both whites AND blacks that black men, especially working class black men, could play the game at the highest level.

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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 27 Mar 2012, 10:50 pm

Initial thoughts:

Ames - Wonderful record. Not mentioned too much in the annals of greats (most commentators would have it that Gilchrist was the first keeper that could hold a bat...). Overall, a very strong candidate.

Arlott - Divided. As a great broadcasting fan I fully appreciate his standing within that field. However, I can't be sure he fits into a cricketing Hall of Fame. Will discuss at length when I have time.

Constantine - Needs quite a bit of research.

d'Oliveira - Always impressed when I read about him, and not only for his involvement in SA's exclusion from international sport. Will again need close consideration.

Dravid - A statistically indisputable case, plus one of cricket's great statesmen. I talk in detail about him in my recent article http://v2journal.com/rahul-dravid.html (Shameless self promotion Sorry )

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Tue 27 Mar 2012, 11:10 pm

I'm sure it will feature further but Basil d'Oliveira was a very fine batsman and useful bowler of "wobblers". His batting record is impressive for one who entered the test arena at the comparatively late age of around 38 (according to Pat Murphy)

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The 606v2 Cricket Hall of Fame Part 2 - Page 20 Empty Re: The 606v2 Cricket Hall of Fame Part 2

Post by guildfordbat Tue 27 Mar 2012, 11:31 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:some initial thoughts from me:

Les Ames: as a member of the keeper's union I would like to see more keepers included Very Happy. Well ahead of his time (by about 60 years) in the sense that he was also a proper batsman. Holds the record for the number of first class stumpings too.

John Arlott: before my time unfortunately, but by all accounts probably the finest commentator the game has seen.

Learie Constantine: I confess I don't know a huge amount of the specifics of his actions in fighting racism, but I very strongly believe these should be taken into consideration when considering his case for inclusion. Those who remember the very early days of this thread may recall that I strongly pushed for Andy Flower's inclusion in the original 30. This was in no small part due to his heroic (I believe the word - somewhat overused - is utterly appropriate here) stance against the Mugabe regime at the 03 world cup.

Basil D'Oliveira: a central figure in SA's exclusion from International sport and the eventual downfall of the apartheid regime. Conducted himself with dignity throughout. May need to re-read accounts of the time to fully get to the bottom of his exact role though.

Rahul Dravid: the glue that held India's batting together for many years. (Too) often in Tendulkar's shadow, but a pretty similar record in fact. Also holds the record for the number of test match catches.
Hi Mad - As I originally proposed Arlott and D'Oliveira, I'm happy to summarise their cases and build a little on your opening comments. I'll do that in the next few days. Obviously others are more than welcome to provide input before and after. I recall Shelsey was also considering nominating Dolly so he may well wish to comment.

As regards Arlott and your comment above, I would for now just emphasise that he was the game's finest commentator both in print and over the airwaves. That is essentially why I nominated him although there is also an important link with D'Oliveira. Arlott was heavily instrumental in enabling D'Oliveira to come to this country and commence his cricket career.

As the Corporal said at the time of Dolly's death, the word 'dignity' is the one most associated with him. You are right to use it.

I think the point the Corporal was making earlier tonight is that Constantine was a fairly ordinary player who also in life achieved much success in the fight against racism. Whilst that success was and remains highly commendable, did it sufficiently relate to his cricket career (as Flower's actions at the 03 World Cup clearly did)? I don't know the answer to that at present. That's not me trying to be tactful. Simply that I need to find out more. The Corporal, like anyone who doesn't immediately know the answer, is right to probe.


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Post by Hoggy_Bear Tue 27 Mar 2012, 11:53 pm

Guildford
I think the thing with Constantine is that he paved the way for the black players who followed him. He was the first black 'star' of the game, and also the first big name West Indian player to forge a career as a professional in England. While his overall test stats are mediocre, he was one of those players able to change the course of a game. A hard hitting, attacking batsman, a fast-bowler and a fielder whose like had never been seen before. E.W. Swanton said of him: "There have been many all-rounders with better records on paper with both bat and ball; but it is hard to think of one who made a more sensational impact, in either department, and above all impossible to imagine his superior as a fielder anywhere."
Such was the respect for him, he was unanimously elected as captain of the Dominions team which played England in 1945, sharing a stand of 117 with Keith Miller in a narrow victory.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 28 Mar 2012, 12:09 am

Thanks, Hoggy.

As regards being a ''black 'star' of the game'', how would you compare him and his impact with that of Headley?

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