TMO's powers

Anyone who has just watched the Wales - Scotland game will know what I'm on about. The Scottish break, the pass to Hogg who touches down and scores on his debut... All looks fine, until Romaine Poite who must have been some 25-30m away from Hogg, and could only see his back, calls for a knock on.
As the TV pictures showed there was clearly no knock on and it was a 100% legitimit try.

Surely at times like this when the ref is so far away from the action, and unless he was blessed with x-ray vision, could never see the ball it would make sense to check with the TMO?

I feel the time has come for the IRB to extend the powers of the TMO, and allow him to adjudicate on crucial decisions such as this.
(I'd also like the IRB to fire Romain Poite from their rosta of referees )

The referee could of gone to the TMO with the existing powers, all he had to ask is "try, yes or no?"

Luckily Scotland scored a try just after it so it didn't matter to much, Scotland still got their deserved points.

Poite had a poor game, but to be fair it happened so quickly and it was millimetres from being a knock on, perhaps he could have asked the TMO but felt confident it was a knock on.

Maybe he should have gone to the TMO if he was in doubt, I'm sure it will come up in debriefing.

TMO probably should just have refereed that game and left Poite out altogether to be honest

Well, he should have got it right, because that could have made a huge difference to somebody's fantasy team! Scotland may have scored straight after, but any Hogg fans will have missed out on those points!

ChequeredJersey wrote:TMO probably should just have refereed that game and left Poite out altogether to be honest

If Poite was not certain he should have either given the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team, or referred to the TMO.

He said it is his decision and he had no doubt from 25 meters away. Poor display by him during the match.

If it was anyone else but Scotland the Ref would have gone upstairs.

HERSH wrote:If it was anyone else but Scotland the Ref would have gone upstairs.

Perhaps everyone else but Scotland and SA.

I don't think the TMO could rule on that. too far back from the line. I thought it a knock on anyway and I am a Scotland fan

If it was England the TMO would have said the player was in touch even when he wasn't.

In all honesty, I didn't think it was a knock on the very first time I saw it and was screaming at the TV when he gave the decision. Hogg did so well to gather the pass, and he really deserved that try. At least we can expect more from him in the future.

HERSH wrote:If it was England the TMO would have said the player was in touch even when he wasn't.

Or an English player playing for a British and Irish Team!

Poite was the ref or was Ford?
Why didn't Ford ask for a TMO? He seemed to have the authority!

AlynDavies wrote:Poite was the ref or was Ford?
Why didn't Ford ask for a TMO? He seemed to have the authority!

Yeah, Ford definitely trying his hardest to influence Poite an several occasions

Pot kettle black Alyn, the Welsh boys never stop screaming foul play!

TJ wrote:I don't think the TMO could rule on that. too far back from the line. I thought it a knock on anyway and I am a Scotland fan

Too far back????? It was at the 5m line, also that's the whole point of this post, that the TMO should be able to adjudicate on moments such as these

I think the rule is that the ref can only go upstairs if the concern is over the act of scoring.
Since Hogg went to ground 5m out,then got up to score I don't think Poite could have asked the TMO for a decision.
Poite was wrong however - it should have been a try.

I can understand why the ref called it a knock on it did appear like he regathered the ball.

donkeyprop wrote:I think the rule is that the ref can only go upstairs if the concern is over the act of scoring.
Since Hogg went to ground 5m out,then got up to score I don't think Poite could have asked the TMO for a decision.
Poite was wrong however - it should have been a try.

Yeah, I know that's the case, but again that's the point of this post, the IRB should make it so the TMO can rule on crucial moments such as these even when they don't occur in the in goal area.

Cymroglan wrote:I can understand why the ref called it a knock on it did appear like he regathered the ball.

I thought he knocked it on myself at the time, and was in the middle of screaming at the tv "you bloody tít" even when you look at the Scottish player in the act of scoring he himself thinks he may of knocked it on, he is hardly celebrating after scoring is he?

He looked like he was just playing the whistle.

TJ wrote:I don't think the TMO could rule on that. too far back from the line. I thought it a knock on anyway and I am a Scotland fan

Surely it was in the act of scoring. If we had referees going back a few phases in the 3N last year to check forward passes, obstruction and foot in touch, then surely he can check a knock on in the act of scoring legitimately. Two tries to Scotland would have been game on.

Mostly I was disappointed that Poite waited until the 77th minute to start penalising Wales for being offside and slowing down the ruck. A yellow card on 79 minutes? Please.

AlynDavies wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:I can understand why the ref called it a knock on it did appear like he regathered the ball.

I thought he knocked it on myself at the time, and was in the middle of screaming at the tv "you bloody tít" even when you look at the Scottish player in the act of scoring he himself thinks he may of knocked it on, he is hardly celebrating after scoring is he?

He looked like he was just playing the whistle.

Doesn't that show he should have went to the TMO then? If you read my post above, I had a similar reaction but for the complete opposite reason. Seems very 50/50, but Poite seemed to be convinced he knocked it on.. and he was wrong unfortunately.

AlynDavies wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:I can understand why the ref called it a knock on it did appear like he regathered the ball.

I thought he knocked it on myself at the time, and was in the middle of screaming at the tv "you bloody tít" even when you look at the Scottish player in the act of scoring he himself thinks he may of knocked it on, he is hardly celebrating after scoring is he?

He looked like he was just playing the whistle.

Thought that myself, he should have celebrated like he'd scored even if he wasn't sure!

The ref obviously assumed he had knocked on because that is standard practice for Scots in such positions.

Pat_Mustard wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:I can understand why the ref called it a knock on it did appear like he regathered the ball.

I thought he knocked it on myself at the time, and was in the middle of screaming at the tv "you bloody tít" even when you look at the Scottish player in the act of scoring he himself thinks he may of knocked it on, he is hardly celebrating after scoring is he?

He looked like he was just playing the whistle.

Thought that myself, he should have celebrated like he'd scored even if he wasn't sure!

The ref obviously assumed he had knocked on because that is standard practice for Scots in such positions.

You might actually have a point there. Do you think if it had been an Aussie or a Kiwi he would have got the benefit of the doubt? Perhaps that's why Richie McCaw gets away with cheating at every ruck.

Pat_Mustard wrote:Thought that myself, he should have celebrated like he'd scored even if he wasn't sure!

The ref obviously assumed he had knocked on because that is standard practice for Scots in such positions.

Exactly all the player had to do after scoring was run up to the ref and scream for the TMO to be used, but the player looked as though he had knocked it on.

It's easy to blame the referee but you have to help yourselves sometimes too.

They did. The ref is clearly heard to say "It is my call. My judgement. He knocked it on. Scrum".

miteyironpaw wrote:

Pat_Mustard wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:I can understand why the ref called it a knock on it did appear like he regathered the ball.

I thought he knocked it on myself at the time, and was in the middle of screaming at the tv "you bloody tít" even when you look at the Scottish player in the act of scoring he himself thinks he may of knocked it on, he is hardly celebrating after scoring is he?

He looked like he was just playing the whistle.

Thought that myself, he should have celebrated like he'd scored even if he wasn't sure!

The ref obviously assumed he had knocked on because that is standard practice for Scots in such positions.

You might actually have a point there. Do you think if it had been an Aussie or a Kiwi he would have got the benefit of the doubt? Perhaps that's why Richie McCaw gets away with cheating at every ruck.

I believe it is more likely in a 50-50 call for any official in any sport to give the advantage to the team/individual deemed generally to be better in that area. That is only logical and it probably has an official fallacy title

GLove39 wrote:

donkeyprop wrote:I think the rule is that the ref can only go upstairs if the concern is over the act of scoring.
Since Hogg went to ground 5m out,then got up to score I don't think Poite could have asked the TMO for a decision.
Poite was wrong however - it should have been a try.

Yeah, I know that's the case, but again that's the point of this post, the IRB should make it so the TMO can rule on crucial moments such as these even when they don't occur in the in goal area.

If you take it further back, how far do you go? One phase? Five? Suppose Jacobsen had scored that try in the 21st phase at the end of the 1st half, should the TMO have been asked to review whether Hogg's foot was in touch at the start of the move?
I'm disappointed that a good try was disallowed, but a line has to be drawn somewhere for involving the TMO and the act of grounding is the most sensible option.

Is this another of those thinly disguised "Wales never win they just get too many points" threads?

No I think it is a thread about whether or not Poite should have went to the TMO for Hogg's try..

Possibly Confirmational Bias

Rory_Gallagher wrote:No I think it is a thread about whether or not Poite should have went to the TMO for Hogg's try..

Did it matter Scotland scored of the next few phases anyway, they might not of had their next try if this one had been awarded, it would of made no difference to the score.

AlynDavies wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:No I think it is a thread about whether or not Poite should have went to the TMO for Hogg's try..

Did it matter Scotland scored of the next few phases anyway, they might not of had their next try if this one had been awarded, it would of made no difference to the score.

Surely the discussion is more about the Law? Nobody is doubting that Wales won, deserved to win and that Scotland scored just after that disallowed try anyway, but it is important to discuss the generalities of the situation in case it occurs again?

Well since that isn't what the thread is asking, then yes it does matter. The OP is asking if the referee should have went to the TMO in these situations, as he didn't have a clear view and he ended up being wrong. There is every chance Scotland may not have scored straight after.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:No I think it is a thread about whether or not Poite should have went to the TMO for Hogg's try..

ok, just checking

Personally i feel that it should be looked at. It could have been very heartbreaking for a side if it was a match determining decision.

At full speed i thought that it was knocked on but the way he reacted i thought that he looked very certain. I am not sure how Poite could have been so convinced as he was...

No he should not have gone to the TMO because he believed he had made the right call.
If we are going to use the TMO for every call then it will mean that the game will become like American football.

I just think that there was enough reasonable doubt to ask the question Cymro.

eirebilly wrote:I just think that there was enough reasonable doubt to ask the question Cymro.

Well (last one I promise) it was a decision made by Poite, I think that counts as enough reasonable doubt to question anyway

ChequeredJersey wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I just think that there was enough reasonable doubt to ask the question Cymro.

Well (last one I promise) it was a decision made by Poite, I think that counts as enough reasonable doubt to question anyway

You cheeky scamp you

Billy it happened before the try line

Some extracts from the laws state the follow, under law 6.A.6 REFEREE CONSULTING WITH OTHERS

'(b) A match organiser may appoint an official who uses technological devices. If the referee is unsure when making a decision in in-goal involving a try being scored or a touch down, that official may be consulted.

The official may be consulted if the referee is unsure when making a decision in in-goal with regard to the scoring of a try or a touch down when foul play in in-goal may have been involved.

The official may be consulted if the referee or assistant referees are unsure if a player was or was not in touch when attempting to ground the ball to score a try.'

My understanding is that they can only officiate in the in-goal area.

But they can go back several phases to check for forward passes, obstruction etc, can they not?

No they cant. There was a stink over the fact that the TMO had called a forward pass in the All Blacks game against South Africa in the Tri-Nations.

Cymroglan,
I agree that it is important for our referees to always have discretion to make the decisions they feel are right. By giving our referees that power, we run the risk some decisions might be wrong. I would prefer that to always checking with the TMO.

Someone over dinner was making the arguement in favour of automatically going to the TMO to confirm all Tries. His point was that there are not many tries in a match and, therefore, wouldn't impact the overall match time. As I said, I didn't like the idea, and want our referees to retain ultimate power over what goes upstairs.

In this match it might have made a difference in the final score, but can't see it changing the final result. Wales were pretty irresistable in the third quarter.

Cymroglan wrote:No they cant. There was a stink over the fact that the TMO had called a forward pass in the All Blacks game against South Africa in the Tri-Nations.

True and that was only a meter in front of the try line.

And why wouldn't they be able to? So if a referee is unsure about a knock-on/forward pass, he isn't able to consult the TMO? Who made that rule up??

I think pretty much everyone, including Hogg, thought it was a knock-on before the replay.

Do we really want more use of the TMO?

Anyway, the ref only asks the TMO if he is unsure and I don't think he was unsure at all.

Wrong, but not unsure.

It happens. We know all about that!

Like I said, I honestly didn't think it was a knock-on after first viewing.