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England Release Players for Club Duty

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Post by Chjw131 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 1:45 pm

Here's a list:

M Brown (Harlequins), C Clark (Northampton Saints), P Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), T Flood (Leicester Tigers), C Lawes (Northampton Saints), J Marler (Harlequins), L Mears (Bath Rugby), B Morgan (Scarlets), T Palmer (Stade Francais), C Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), J Simpson (London Wasps), M Stevens (Saracens), M Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), J Turner-Hall (Harlequins), T Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), R Webber (London Wasps)

So it would seem that Palmer maybe replaced by Parling for Wales in order to refine the lineout one might imagine. Very disappointed to see Morgan sent back to Scarlets though. Will our back-row balance ever be right?!!!

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Post by HammerofThunor Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:08 pm

Morgan has to be sent back as it's outside the international window. After the English clubs not releasing the Welsh players I'd have been very surprised if Scarlets released Morgan. Same goes for Palmer (probably).

Basically the guy who haven't had much game time have been released (along with the ones who been involved in match day sqaud. Parling starting is highly possible since Webber and Stevens have gone back (other benched forwards)

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Post by Chjw131 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:13 pm

Ah, i'd forgotten about the IRB window. Thanks Hammer.

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Post by HammerofThunor Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:15 pm

So quickly we've forgotten the bad days when all the players went back to their clubs on the off weekends. It'll be interesting in 2015/16 when the new EPS deal is done (or not done if that's the case).

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Post by munkian Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:39 pm

Heh heh heh 'duty'
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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:42 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:So quickly we've forgotten the bad days when all the players went back to their clubs on the off weekends. It'll be interesting in 2015/16 when the new EPS deal is done (or not done if that's the case).
Probably a bit early to speculate and off-topic, but could that be the trigger for some major changes?

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Post by Guest Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:53 pm

ah super, I didn't realise we'd have Morgan available this weekend, that's brilliant!

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Post by beshocked Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:57 pm

The only surprises are Palmer and Morgan.

Relieved that Youngs hasn't been sent back to find some form.

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Post by B91212 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:58 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:ah super, I didn't realise we'd have Morgan available this weekend, that's brilliant!
Please take good care of him! If he must play how about him making a rare appearance on the wing? Or better yet, if he must be in the match day 23 then how about him being an unused sub?

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Post by munkian Wed 15 Feb 2012, 3:01 pm

Leinster will run all over him just to annoy the English Wink
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Post by B91212 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 3:04 pm

Glad Parling is being kept back and really hope he starts against the welsh. Agree Palmer is a surprising call - I thought he was one of those players who had an agreement with his club regarding being called back during non international weekends. Perhaps now he has confirmed his return to Wasps for next season Stade are not being so friendly. Thought he played better against Italy but he looks as though he couldn't last a full 80 minutes at the moment.

I expect Morgan has no agreement in place but if the Scarlets really wanted to keep him for the last year of his contract wouldn't they have given him the opportunity to stay with the squad? Does this mean that his move to the Cherries is already a done deal?

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Post by munkian Wed 15 Feb 2012, 3:22 pm

They have no obligation to let him play.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 15 Feb 2012, 3:33 pm

B91212 wrote:I expect Morgan has no agreement in place but if the Scarlets really wanted to keep him for the last year of his contract wouldn't they have given him the opportunity to stay with the squad?

They might have done if it wasn't England up next. Wink

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Post by Guest Wed 15 Feb 2012, 3:36 pm

B91212 wrote:
rugbydreamer wrote:ah super, I didn't realise we'd have Morgan available this weekend, that's brilliant!
Please take good care of him! If he must play how about him making a rare appearance on the wing? Or better yet, if he must be in the match day 23 then how about him being an unused sub?

I would hope (unfortunately for you sorry!) that we do use him, maybe get him to play the whole match. We are away against Leinster, we need players like Ben on top form for us!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 15 Feb 2012, 3:53 pm

Relieved that Youngs hasn't been sent back to find some form

You'd rather face the in form Sam Harrison? Then again he has forced off at half time last weekend so am currently praying he's not injured as that would leave Grindal first choice and us recquiring a loan from Notts or a call up for Scotland under 20 Steele.

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Post by B91212 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:01 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:I would hope (unfortunately for you sorry!) that we do use him, maybe get him to play the whole match. We are away against Leinster, we need players like Ben on top form for us!
Sorry dreamer but even with Morgan back I can't see you getting a result over there, even with their international players like yours missing. To be honest it could do him good to play the whole 80 minutes considering he has only played about 55 minutes in the last 2 weeks. I'm more concerned that he doesn't pick up an injury though, maybe Rhys Ruddock will help out his old mates (or maybe not after what they did to his Dad Wink)

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:19 pm

Surely Morgan has to be released unless the RFU have compensated the Scarlets like they do the AP teams.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:31 pm

Palmer and Morgan are released back to their clubs because there is no EPS agreement with their clubs. Considering the arguements with Stade last year I think Palmer being sent back is a bit of a peace offering. Morgan could not be kept as the Welsh clubs are not under the EPS system and Morgan definitely does not have a get out in his contract.

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Post by Guest Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:32 pm

maybe not a win, but even a LBP is better than nothing B9! We've been fielding a load of 3rd choice players recently, so Ben is going to be needed, even if to give the likes of Gilbert and Murphy a bit of a break.

bedford - yep.

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Post by B91212 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:41 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely Morgan has to be released unless the RFU have compensated the Scarlets like they do the AP teams.
He must be released, it's outside of the international window and the compensation from the RU is for AP clubs only. My thoughts were if the Scarlets really wanted to keep him after this season or when his contract expires after next, then maybe they could have given him the weekend off and allowed him to stay with the England squad on this occasion as a goodwill gesture between both club and player for the future.

However, he hasn't played much rugby in terms of minutes on the pitch since joining England so it could do him good to get a run out, I just hope he doesn't pick up an injury.

Dreamer - a LPB would be a good result over there and I understand you needing all players when available. I've just got an interest in this particular player, what with him being English and all that. If the roles were reversed with the Saints then I would want my top players turning out wherever possible, especially at a time when many of the top players are away for the whole 6N.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:46 pm

Yeah I thought he had to be released.

But in the past it has been the umbrella body as opposed to the clubs who have refused to release Welsh players.

Few years back Sale were happy to release Peel but got stopped, I wonder if the Scarlets had agree to release him if the WRU would have stepped in.

Maybe Lancaster himself is happy to release him so he gets some gametime.
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Post by HammerofThunor Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:48 pm

Well the Scarlets may know he's going to England after his contract is finished due to more money being on offer. Don't see how it gives any indication over whether he's leaving early or not (if the Scarlets don't let him go they can stop him from playing for anyone else if he walks, which would be stupid).

Also there is the RRW which covers in the regions in the same way the PRL does for English clubs. They may have made a collective decision not to release players without specific clauses in the contracts.

BedfordWelsh, the umbrella body includes Sale and the Sale representative voted for the decision. The coach could then happily say "I would if I could" knowing full well there was no opinion. Doesn't mean he'd have followed through

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Post by bluestonevedder Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:54 pm

Hmmmm.....unhappy to see that Morgan has been released, and Palmer also. Assuming Manu and Flood are just being given the opportunity of another un-around before international duty. I fully expect them to be in the match-day squad

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:58 pm

BedfordWelsh, the umbrella body includes Sale and the Sale representative voted for the decision. The coach could then happily say "I would if I could" knowing full well there was no opinion. Doesn't mean he'd have followed through.

With the EPS in place it was always going to be difficult for any other nation to get early release of players because if the PRL allowed that but charged the RFU the cost of the EPS agreement then the poopie would hit the fan. The PRL need the RFU cash from the EPS agreement so are more likely to eat broken glass than release players early. They did actually offer a slightly earlier release of players for the RWC as long as the players were insured by their Union but Wales actually refused to pay the additional insurance.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 15 Feb 2012, 4:59 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Well the Scarlets may know he's going to England after his contract is finished due to more money being on offer. Don't see how it gives any indication over whether he's leaving early or not (if the Scarlets don't let him go they can stop him from playing for anyone else if he walks, which would be stupid).

Also there is the RRW which covers in the regions in the same way the PRL does for English clubs. They may have made a collective decision not to release players without specific clauses in the contracts.

BedfordWelsh, the umbrella body includes Sale and the Sale representative voted for the decision. The coach could then happily say "I would if I could" knowing full well there was no opinion. Doesn't mean he'd have followed through

Hammer,

Fair point but as the coach at the time was Kingsley jones I think he might well have let him go. I was just wondering if the WRU could have made same decision.
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Post by Guest Wed 15 Feb 2012, 5:57 pm

The Scarlets have already come out and said they won't stand in Ben's way of playing for England, so I don't really see what the issue is. The guys only played about 60mins of rugby in over a month. I would say he was due a full 80mins. You want him match sharp for the game against Wales, no? Smile

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 15 Feb 2012, 6:01 pm

I think it is good that some players have been released back to their club for this week end, especialy as most of the players that have been realeased have not played mutch rugby in the last 2 weeks or so, so it will give them game time.

Lets just hope that those who are released do not get injured in the mean time.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 15 Feb 2012, 6:56 pm

Brilliant to have Marler, Brown and JTH back for a key game against Worcester. We must win and i'd really like a winning bp!

I wonder if we'll see any of Rowntrees influence on Marler in the crums? Worcester will be a good challenge for him to show his stuff, especially now that Johnston is properly holding his own in the scrums (most of the time).

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Post by robbo277 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 9:24 pm

Palmer's the only one there I would have been reluctant to release, the others all could probably do with a bit more game-time. Understand why Palmer would have been released though.

Who's been retained? I suppose that's a more interesting question in a way.

Corbisiero, Hartley, Cole, Botha, Parling, Croft, Robshaw, Dowson, Youngs, Dickson, Hodgson, Farrell, Barritt, Strettle, Ashton, Foden. Got to assume that all those will be in the 22 against Wales then, fitness permitting.

Youngs would have been released if I were England coach, hopefully to let him get a bit of form and confidence back.

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 15 Feb 2012, 9:54 pm

Youngs would have been released if I were England coach, hopefully to let him get a bit of form and confidence back.

Yes i would of been happy to see Youngs released, he was dire last week, absolutley dire. furious

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Post by Cadair Idris Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:02 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:The Scarlets have already come out and said they won't stand in Ben's way of playing for England, so I don't really see what the issue is. The guys only played about 60mins of rugby in over a month. I would say he was due a full 80mins. You want him match sharp for the game against Wales, no? Smile

I reckon Nigel Davies should give Morgan 80 mins in the 2nd row - would do him good to show a bit of versatility before he buggers off to gloucester and would get him match fit for twickers. And the scarlets are a bit short in the boiler house with lou reed being off on welsh duty! thumbsup

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:26 am

Yes i would of been happy to see Youngs released, he was dire last week, absolutley dire

Most of the team was dire. I'd drop Youngs completely unless England plan to change from their defensive kicking game. He is of little use in a defensive kicking battle so England might as well replace him with somebody who is and send him back to Tigers where he can work on his game.

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Post by bluestonevedder Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:43 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Most of the team was dire. I'd drop Youngs completely unless England plan to change from their defensive kicking game. He is of little use in a defensive kicking battle so England might as well replace him with somebody who is and send him back to Tigers where he can work on his game.

+1. Think Youngs could really benefit from returning to Tigers for a while, and building up his confidence slowly again. WC's ruined his play-making ability and knocked him for six. While players are away on international duty, it might be the perfect time for him to re-discover his world-class form.

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Post by RubyGuby Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:47 am

I think Youngs was offered back to the Tigers but the management team at Leicester said "no thanks, you can keep him" Yahoo

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Post by beshocked Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:00 am

From an England perspective, Youngs should have been sent back to Leicester to rediscover his form.

From a Saracens fan I am pleased Youngs is being retained by England.

Grindal is likely to start against Saracens in his place. Very Happy

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Post by dummy_half Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:19 am

Interesting that Parling and Dickson have been retained, while the other regular subs have been alloed to play for their clubs.

Slightly different situations for the two of them though, as Parling is one of only 2 2nd rows remaining with the squad while Palmer has to go back to his club as they are not covered by the EPS agreement.

Dickson is retained along with Youngs - are they seeing who performs better in training, or are there still issues with Dickson's hand?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:24 am

B91212 wrote: My thoughts were if the Scarlets really wanted to keep him after this season or when his contract expires after next, then maybe they could have given him the weekend off and allowed him to stay with the England squad on this occasion as a goodwill gesture between both club and player for the future.

What does this mean?

You expect a club who hasn't seen one of their employees for the best part of a month, because he's been in another country, to give that employee another weekend off?

Why's that?

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Post by Chjw131 Thu 16 Feb 2012, 11:29 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
B91212 wrote: My thoughts were if the Scarlets really wanted to keep him after this season or when his contract expires after next, then maybe they could have given him the weekend off and allowed him to stay with the England squad on this occasion as a goodwill gesture between both club and player for the future.

What does this mean?

You expect a club who hasn't seen one of their employees for the best part of a month, because he's been in another country, to give that employee another weekend off?

Why's that?

Well I think what B9 was trying to say Chunky, was that it might be a good move diplomatically from the Scarlets' point of view if they had any desire to sign Morgan for an extension to his current contract. It would show a willingness as far as international appearances and training goes.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Thu 16 Feb 2012, 11:31 am

Chjw131 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
B91212 wrote: My thoughts were if the Scarlets really wanted to keep him after this season or when his contract expires after next, then maybe they could have given him the weekend off and allowed him to stay with the England squad on this occasion as a goodwill gesture between both club and player for the future.

What does this mean?

You expect a club who hasn't seen one of their employees for the best part of a month, because he's been in another country, to give that employee another weekend off?

Why's that?

Well I think what B9 was trying to say Chunky, was that it might be a good move diplomatically from the Scarlets' point of view if they had any desire to sign Morgan for an extension to his current contract. It would show a willingness as far as international appearances and training goes.

But as has been said before would the WRU or the Regional governing body step in and say no you can't release him like their English counterparts done with Sale and Peel.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 16 Feb 2012, 11:39 am

Chjw131 wrote:
Well I think what B9 was trying to say Chunky, was that it might be a good move diplomatically from the Scarlets' point of view if they had any desire to sign Morgan for an extension to his current contract. It would show a willingness as far as international appearances and training goes.

No.

This is an important league game. This is outside of the window. Morgan is a Scarlets employee.
It is ridiculous to sugegst that he shoudln't work for his employers on a non international window as a vague attempt to appease another nations' Union.

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Post by HammerofThunor Thu 16 Feb 2012, 12:23 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Chjw131 wrote:
Well I think what B9 was trying to say Chunky, was that it might be a good move diplomatically from the Scarlets' point of view if they had any desire to sign Morgan for an extension to his current contract. It would show a willingness as far as international appearances and training goes.

No.

This is an important league game. This is outside of the window. Morgan is a Scarlets employee.
It is ridiculous to sugegst that he shoudln't work for his employers on a non international window as a vague attempt to appease another nations' Union.

I wouldn't say it's ridiculous but it does depend on the situation. Important league game (do they have they in the Pro12? Wink ) and a few injuries could mean they need him. But if it was LV and you had cover then it may possibly happen (unless there was a blanket rule as in England)

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