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Has the Premier League gone full circle?

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Post by Guest on Fri 09 Mar 2012, 11:42 pm

I wrote a thread prior to this season explaining why I believed we were heading into the weakest Premier League season in ten years. I would say 8/10 of the responses I got were against my argument and one particular reply suggested that I wait until the European season sorted itself out before we can make a proper and valid valuation of our stock, so to speak, so here we are.

Chelsea may well overcome Napoli in the Champions League and even if they do so does anybody within these boards really believe they have a cat-in-hells chance of winning the damn thing?

Manchester City, who have spent hundreds of millions of pounds just to be able to compete, are a goal down in a European tie against a mediocre Portuguese team who are languishing in fifth place in their own domestic league. A poor league at that.

Manchester Utd were out-passed and out-played against Bilbao in their home tie and were in all honesty lucky to escape with a one goal deficit.

To me the golden years of the Premier League were between 1998 and 2008 where we were able to boast three Champions League Winners albeit via two penalty shoot outs and a last minute winner. Our league was also peppered with world class footballers during that period.

I remember the Premier League during and immediately after its inception and I'm sorry but I see no difference.

Spain is where it's at!!

We have gone backwards.

Cheers guys.




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Post by Hero on Fri 09 Mar 2012, 11:52 pm

I've felt the same for a while now, sure there's a few genuinely quality players in the Premier League like Silva, Aguero, RVP, Mata, Kompany, Toure, Nani, Vidic, Bale, Modric, but compare the quality of the likes of Utd now to just 4 years ago and there's a mile of difference.
La Liga is a world apart, Serie A, Bundesliga and even the French Ligue 1 are close to the premier league now with the huge influx of cash at PSG.


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Post by Guest on Sat 10 Mar 2012, 12:00 am

Thank you Hero! Thought I was going mad listening to some mates earlier.

I would honestly bet that that the last side Ron Atkinson picked would beat this current Utd side.

I am a Liverpool fan and listening to some of my 'Pool buddies you would think that the world is our oyster! It's amazing what a Carling Cup victory does to some people's heads!




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Post by Hero on Sat 10 Mar 2012, 12:10 am

I look at the Utd side now and it's a shadow of the team from a few years ago.
A midfield of Keane, Ronaldo and Scholes & Giggs in their prime, compared to now with Carrick, Valencia or Young, and the last hurrah of the old guard.
The fact that the likes of Pogba who could have been a really great player ups and leaves for Juve speaks volumes.
When Fergie said in Jan there just wasn't the players out there I couldn't believe it, what the likes of Eriksen, Gotze, Hazard etc wouldn't be tempted anymore by one of the biggest football giants in the world?

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Post by Guest on Sat 10 Mar 2012, 12:25 am

I've touched on it before and that Utd side of 99 and even the CL winnners of 08 are two millions miles ahead of this current Utd side.

I was debating with a mate today that the Liverpool side that won the cup treble in 01 was a much better side than our current one and he wasn't having it.

My boss is a a Villa fan and I was giving him my opinion earlier that the O'Neil 07/8/9 Vila side would challenge for a title today.

Look at Arsenal. The team that fell short of Utd by god-knows-how-many-points in 2000 would romp the league today with the players they had back then.

The bottom has fallen out!


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Post by Crimey on Sat 10 Mar 2012, 9:35 am

Is it not becoming more entertaining though? The sheer quality may be going down, but with it, the gaps are reducing between parts of the table. Sunderland went from being relegation candidates to pushing the top half of the table. Arsenal have bundled from crisis to crisis, but within it peppered amazing displays. Manchester City and Manchester United roared ahead in the beginning, but now it's becoming gritty stuff.

We've seen Blackburn beat Arsenal and Manchester United, seen Arsenal lose 8-2 against Man United, win 5-3 against Chelsea, and come back to win 5-2 against Tottenham.

While the league's quality in terms of 'who is the best?' terms of quality, I honestly believe the entertainment value has gone up. We still get to see some genuine world class players doing their thing, but now we've got a more competitive league in my opinion.

I think the last couple of years had been really boring years, last years was probably the most boring year of football I have ever watched, so this more exciting year has been a big improvement for me.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Sat 10 Mar 2012, 3:03 pm

One swallow doesn't make a summer, one poor season doesn't make for a collapse of fortunes.

Before this season the EPL was the most successful league in European football over the past five seasons.

Accept that most of our top sides are their weakest recent incarnations. Fergie's Treble winner, Arsene's Invincibles or Mourinho's Chelski would walk this league - Citeh or not.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:22 am

Is it not becoming more entertaining though?
I would say the championship is far more entertaining than the premier league and has been for a while. Man United have been top 2 for what seems like 15 years or so. How anybody can criticise La Liga for having the same 2 teams when Man United are always top 2 just screams hypocracy.

Championship >>> Premiership.
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Post by sirfredperry on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 11:51 am

A number of factors would suggest that, yes, this is far from being a vintage Premiership season.
First, the English sides have done poorly in the Champions League and now the Manchester clubs are struggling in the Europa as well.
Secondly, promoted sides Swansea and Norwich - far from being out of their depth - have done quite well.
Third, Man U are now top but are a shadow of some of the great, entertaining attacking United sides of the past.
Fourth, some of the stronger sides - Chelsea, Arsenal and now Spurs - have had poor runs.
Fifth, Liverpool - much fancied with Kenny back - have been disappointing and practically goalless.
Sixth, you're not gonna have to get anywhere near 40 points to stay up this season.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 12:15 pm

If I am honest, I think globally the standard of top class players has declined. Nationally yes England has few superstar players who could cut it in the best teams in the world. Take 10 years ago and England had the likes of Gerrard, Ferdinand, Cole, Terry, Lampard, Owen, Scholes, Beckham, Neville players who were European class. You had Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Carlos, Cafu, Rivaldo in Brazil, France had Zidane, Henry, Thuram, Vieira. Portugal had Figo, Rui Costa Italy had Cannavaro, Buffon, Del Piero, Totti, Nesta. Holland had Kluivert, Cocu, Van Bommel, Zenden, Stam. Spain had Xavi, Casilas, Puyol, Villa. Lists are endless.

Now we have Rooney, Wilshere, Milner and that is where I would draw the line.

But globally I think countries are struggling. Take Argentina, you have Messi and Higuain. Brazil you have Neymar. France you have Ribery and Benzema. Portugal you have Ronaldo. Italy Balotelli at a push. Spain have Torres, Fabregas and Pique. Germany have Ozil, Muller, Khederia.

I think the standards have slipped globally.

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Post by Hero on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 12:45 pm

legendkillar wrote:If I am honest, I think globally the standard of top class players has declined. Nationally yes England has few superstar players who could cut it in the best teams in the world. Take 10 years ago and England had the likes of Gerrard, Ferdinand, Cole, Terry, Lampard, Owen, Scholes, Beckham, Neville players who were European class. You had Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Carlos, Cafu, Rivaldo in Brazil, France had Zidane, Henry, Thuram, Vieira. Portugal had Figo, Rui Costa Italy had Cannavaro, Buffon, Del Piero, Totti, Nesta. Holland had Kluivert, Cocu, Van Bommel, Zenden, Stam. Spain had Xavi, Casilas, Puyol, Villa. Lists are endless.

Now we have Rooney, Wilshere, Milner and that is where I would draw the line.

But globally I think countries are struggling. Take Argentina, you have Messi and Higuain. Brazil you have Neymar. France you have Ribery and Benzema. Portugal you have Ronaldo. Italy Balotelli at a push. Spain have Torres, Fabregas and Pique. Germany have Ozil, Muller, Khederia.

I think the standards have slipped globally.

I think I could add a few to those lists...

Argentina: Di Maria, Mascherano, Aguero
Brazil: Thiago Silva, Marcelo, Hulk
France: Evra, M'Vila, Sakho
Portugal: Pepe, Contraeo, Nani,
Italy: Chielini, De Rossi
Spain: Ramos, Casillas, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Silva, Mata
Germany: Hummels, Kroos, Muller, Gomez, Gotze

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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 1:02 pm

Hero wrote:
legendkillar wrote:If I am honest, I think globally the standard of top class players has declined. Nationally yes England has few superstar players who could cut it in the best teams in the world. Take 10 years ago and England had the likes of Gerrard, Ferdinand, Cole, Terry, Lampard, Owen, Scholes, Beckham, Neville players who were European class. You had Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Carlos, Cafu, Rivaldo in Brazil, France had Zidane, Henry, Thuram, Vieira. Portugal had Figo, Rui Costa Italy had Cannavaro, Buffon, Del Piero, Totti, Nesta. Holland had Kluivert, Cocu, Van Bommel, Zenden, Stam. Spain had Xavi, Casilas, Puyol, Villa. Lists are endless.

Now we have Rooney, Wilshere, Milner and that is where I would draw the line.

But globally I think countries are struggling. Take Argentina, you have Messi and Higuain. Brazil you have Neymar. France you have Ribery and Benzema. Portugal you have Ronaldo. Italy Balotelli at a push. Spain have Torres, Fabregas and Pique. Germany have Ozil, Muller, Khederia.

I think the standards have slipped globally.

I think I could add a few to those lists...

Argentina: Di Maria, Mascherano, Aguero
Brazil: Thiago Silva, Marcelo, Hulk
France: Evra, M'Vila, Sakho
Portugal: Pepe, Contraeo, Nani,
Italy: Chielini, De Rossi
Spain: Ramos, Casillas, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Silva, Mata
Germany: Hummels, Kroos, Muller, Gomez, Gotze

I considered them all. Casillas and Xavi broke through about 10 years ago.

But if we take that list by rule of thumb, bar Ramos, I don't think anyone of them have done anything outstanding.

Can you look at those players and consider of them to join the elite of Ronaldo, Messi, Torres, Rooney?

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 1:29 pm

legendkillar wrote:Can you look at those players and consider of them to join the elite of Ronaldo, Messi, Torres, Rooney?

Sorry, why is that mans name in this list?

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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 1:47 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Can you look at those players and consider of them to join the elite of Ronaldo, Messi, Torres, Rooney?

Sorry, why is that mans name in this list?

So his time at Chelsea constitutes what he has achieved in his 'entire' career to date?

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 1:54 pm

No - but you have to ask yourself if he truly belongs with Ronaldo, Messi and Rooney. Maybe even Rooney doesn't belong in that list.

I'm not sure you understand that Torres while being a good player, is nothing compared with those 3.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 2:05 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:No - but you have to ask yourself if he truly belongs with Ronaldo, Messi and Rooney. Maybe even Rooney doesn't belong in that list.

I'm not sure you understand that Torres while being a good player, is nothing compared with those 3.

Torres has won European Championship and World Cup. Has Ronaldo or Messi? Nope. 50 PL goals in 84 appearances is quite a record. 65 goals in 102 appearances is some ratio.

Rooney has enjoyed a lot of domestic success with Utd like Messi and Ronaldo. Can't see why he can't be put in the same category.

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Post by Hero on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 2:29 pm

I think then on that basis your earlier mention that the likes of Balotelli and Neymar would be included is wrong.
If you include Rooney then in the same respect then Evra should be in there. Hulk could arguably be included due to Porto's league and Euro Cup success last season. Hummels and Gotze were highly instrumental in Dortmund winning the Bundesliga last season.
I also believe that at present there's more diversification of players coming through of different nations, Falcao & James Rodriguez of Colombia, Suarez, Cavani, Forlan & Pereira of Uruguay, Eriksen of Denmark, Vertonghen, Hazard, Kompany and Vermaelen of Belgium, I believe there's still the quality of player coming through just they're not as much in the usual suspects of nations that they're coming through from.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 2:52 pm

With respect Forlan broke through years ago when at Villareal. Has Hulk made much of a international breakthrough with the national team? Not really. Hummels and Gotze have had one good season. Bit premature to put them in there.

The Belgians look interesting as they have a core of some real good players.

Not being funny, but look at Scotland in the 70's. Dalglish, Souness, Jordan, Gemmill, McQueen, Harper. They had some outstanding players. I think you are right and yes they come from the most un-expected countries, but also it is a short window that they collectively peak at the same time at the top.

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Post by Hero on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:22 pm

Belgium do have an excellent core of players currently coming through and it was a shame they had a really tough group in the Euros with Turkey (another nation with some real talent) and Germany.

One of the things that I think is different now is that the money is being spread throughout the leagues, you have clubs coming through that are challenging the stalwarts of Europe with PSG, City, Malaga and Anzhi all now being owned by billionaires capable of prizing away the jewels from the biggest clubs in the world.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:32 pm

Now we have Rooney, Wilshere, Milner and that is where I would draw the line.
I would swap Milner for Sturridge. That guy has lots of class in his locker and it will not surprise me when he's one of the top scorers in the groups stage. I would much sooner watch the U21's than the first team that's for sure.
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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:36 pm

I think Belgium have a squad capable enough of pulling an upset out of the bag. All their players are at the right age.

The distribution of wealth as you correctly state is much more varied with billionaires turning up in all different leagues. I think whatn is strange about the English League is that the Championship has gotten stronger and the Premier League has gotten weaker in terms of the players produced.

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Post by sirfredperry on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:40 pm

Well, many would think it pretty awful that success can be bought through the megarich taking over clubs.
But at least it's not so bad if the wealth is spread around and going to clubs without that much recent success.
I know Manchester City are hardly the most popular club in England but when they did last win the championship ? 1968. Until last season, when had they last won the FA Cup - 1969.
Now some probably would like nothing better than neither Manchester club winning the title this year. But that looks impossible now. For me, a City title would at least be something different. How many different clubs have won the Premiership since it started, for Pete's sake ?

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Post by Josiah Maiestas on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:42 pm

It has been a crap league. Yes there have been shock results like Blackburn winning at OT and Swansea beating MC. But the overall quality has been poor. Wolves, Wigan, QPR and Bolton etc have been awful. Once the English coefficient ranking is reduced then soon there will be only 3 teams in the Prem that can qualify for CL. It is about time too!
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Post by sirfredperry on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:49 pm

JM - take your point about quality. But if City continue to be a top 2 team then having only three English teams qualifying for the Champs league is going to take away the only real uncertainty and excitement from the Premier League - namely, who's gonna finish fourth !

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:57 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:It has been a crap league. Yes there have been shock results like Blackburn winning at OT and Swansea beating MC. But the overall quality has been poor. Wolves, Wigan, QPR and Bolton etc have been awful. Once the English coefficient ranking is reduced then soon there will be only 3 teams in the Prem that can qualify for CL. It is about time too!

Can't see that happening. England's co-efficient is top by a margin and the top 3 league (England, Germany, Spain) are then a very large gap away from the next. Ours would have to drop from 82.5 to under 59 which is ridiculous based off one suspect season. This is just doomsday nonesense.

Citeh have the players but not the experience, EPL teams always take the longest to adjust to European football due to the greatest variance in the style of game/play. Once they've got another season (max 2) of experience under their belt and have probably spent another £100m+ they'll be hitting the QFs fine. There's no reason to suggest United won't have a similar bounce back also.

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Post by dublfcynwa on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 3:58 pm

I have being saying the prem is rubbish now for the last year but it's only when the fith place team in Spain who are 30 points behind Real Madrid give the English champs a footballing lesson on their own pitch do people really understand how much better the Spanish league is.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 4:04 pm

Would also repeat that even after this season has concluded the EPL will have been the statistically most successful league in Europe for 6 yrs.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 4:09 pm

dublfcynwa wrote:I have being saying the prem is rubbish now for the last year but it's only when the fith place team in Spain who are 30 points behind Real Madrid give the English champs a footballing lesson on their own pitch do people really understand how much better the Spanish league is.

It's weak, not rubbish, still wouldn't drop outside a European top 5.

Parity will be restored next season or the season after.

One swallow doesn't make a summer.....

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Post by dublfcynwa on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 4:20 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
dublfcynwa wrote:I have being saying the prem is rubbish now for the last year but it's only when the fith place team in Spain who are 30 points behind Real Madrid give the English champs a footballing lesson on their own pitch do people really understand how much better the Spanish league is.

It's weak, not rubbish, still wouldn't drop outside a European top 5.

Parity will be restored next season or the season after.

One swallow doesn't make a summer.....

Its rubbish compared to the Spanish league IMO.
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Post by Hero on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 4:27 pm

It's silly to base that decision based purely on one football match last week.
On the same reckoning you could state that Crystal Palace are better than Utd etc.


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Post by dublfcynwa on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 4:59 pm

Hero wrote:It's silly to base that decision based purely on one football match last week.
On the same reckoning you could state that Crystal Palace are better than Utd etc.


Who said it was based on one result? I have being saying the Spanish league is way better for at least the last year, its down to whatever style of football you like I suppose for me I like watching the Spanish league because they play football with the ball on the ground, some people prefer the prem, each to their own. The thing that annoys me is people like Paul Merson saying the Spanish league is a pub league compared to the prem, and this guy gets paid to talk about football.
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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 5:01 pm

You have to look at the contribution Torres made to that Euro/World Cup win - its well known that he's out of favour with Spain and hasn't been able to perform for Chelsea. Can you imagine Messi or Ronaldo going to another club and performing as badly has he has?

Its just a shame for Torres that Ronaldo and Messi have set the bar so high. Ronaldo leaves Man U and ends up tearing it apart at Real Madrid. Messi performs at the highest standard consistently. When was the last time Torres scored 5 goals in a champions league game?

I don't think torres is a bad player, I just think to put him in the same bracket as Ronaldo and Messi is silly.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 5:06 pm

Who scored the winner in the Euro 2008 Final?

I think it is silly to base your decision based on his form at Chelsea. Look at Ronaldo in the 2004-2005 season. Was dreadful. 9 goals in 50 games.

When was the last time Ronaldo and Messi done it on the international stage?

Who captained their club at 19 years of age?


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Post by Hero on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 5:10 pm

dublfcynwa wrote:
Hero wrote:It's silly to base that decision based purely on one football match last week.
On the same reckoning you could state that Crystal Palace are better than Utd etc.


Who said it was based on one result? I have being saying the Spanish league is way better for at least the last year, its down to whatever style of football you like I suppose for me I like watching the Spanish league because they play football with the ball on the ground, some people prefer the prem, each to their own. The thing that annoys me is people like Paul Merson saying the Spanish league is a pub league compared to the prem, and this guy gets paid to talk about football.

I am actaully in full agreement that the Premier League is currently its weakest for a long time, it was just more based on the one game 'they must be better' statement you used.

Serie A, Bundesliga and even the French Ligue A are all making huge strides at the moment, even the Russian and Brazilian leagues are vastly improving yet our league is one of the few that is going backward (though not as backward as the Scottish League).

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Post by dublfcynwa on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 5:21 pm

I think the title of the article is a good one as it does seem to go in circles who has the best league. The Italian was by far the best years ago then it went terrible and now its coming back. The prem will always be a strong league and im sure it will be the best again some day.
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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 5:27 pm

I'm not prepared to enter into a debate with someone as selective as you are in relation to your evidence to support why Fernando Torres is as good as Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.

If you want to think that then feel free, you're wrong of course - but by all means, you can tell me about one goal he scored all day long. Fact is, David Villa is held in much higher regard in the Spanish team, and world football and you haven't mentioned him at all.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:01 pm

When was the last time Torres won a Euro or World Player of the Year Award? In fact, when was the last time he even made the shortlist...??!

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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:18 pm

Would you like to provide the fact with a link that supports that David Villa is higher regarded than Torres?

Can't wait for this one.

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Post by Crimey on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:23 pm

I'm sorry but Fernando Torres hasn't hit world class form for 3 years now, the last time he was any good was 2009 and he has been in decline since then, it didn't suddenly happen with his move to Chelsea.

Also, I don't think he was ever good enough to be in the same bracket as Ronaldo or Messi, he didn't even win the Golden Boot in the Premier League.

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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:27 pm

Given that Torres was plagued with injuries from 2009 onwards has nothing to do with that? So out of 114 league games he played 69 and which he scored 41 goals.

Some posters are deluded. I bet most players would kill for a ratio like that.

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Post by Ent on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:35 pm

Don't you think this Torres nonsense is detracting from the debate somewhat?

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Post by legendkillar on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:37 pm

Posters are welcomed to actually post an opinion believe it or not

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Post by Hero on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:43 pm

Sorry LK I have to disagree in regards to Torres, I personally think he had a rosey patch in the early days at Liverpool and he's returned to his usual self since then.

His form at Atletico was that of an okay striker but never a prolific one:

02-03 played 31 scored 14
03-04 played 40 scored 21
04-05 played 49 scored 20
05-06 played 40 scored 13
06-07 played 40 scored 15

Apart from the debut season at Liverpool he's never scored more than 20 league goals in a season.

Compare that to Villa who this season aside due to his injury has scored 20 or more goals every season for the past 10 years.




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Post by Ent on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:47 pm

legendkillar wrote:Posters are welcomed to actually post an opinion believe it or not

Back on topic:

For me the PL has never been as good as people claimed and currenty it is not as bad as people claim, yes Europe has been a disaster this year but prior to that United had reached 3/4 CL finals with a number of teams making the semis. Fulham etc also had good Uefa cup runs in recent years.

As for the apparent dip in quality of the elite players I somewhat agree. Players can no longer flourish the way they could in the past e.g. Zidane was 26 before making any real impact on the world game, now it's all hype about wonderkids.

Secondly football has changed/evolved to a game that is now very defensive, tactical and relies on super fitness - some of the previous greats would have struggled with players swarming all over them etc.

Lastly it is hard to look good when Messi and Ronaldo are so ridiculous, a 20 (league) goal a season striker would have previously been world class, doesn't measure up to Ronaldo bagging 40 and he and Messi reaching 50 goals in all competitions (ridiculous).

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Post by Hero on Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:51 pm

That's a good point you Have strikers like Cavani, Falcao, Gomez etc that a few years ago would have plaudits lapping up how good they are as strikers but simply get overlooked at present due to the Messi effect.

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Post by All Time Great on Tue 13 Mar 2012, 12:15 am

Football has always been cyclical, Seria A was the most dominant in the 90s, I'd say the Premiership shaded it in the early 00s and La Liga has pretty much dominated ever since. The Bundasleague always appears to have peaks and troughs as well.

In terms of the current quality in the premiership, I would agree it is below par at present. I'd say only RVP would deserve to get in a world XI, with maybe Vidic or Kompany making the back line. Wayne Rooney would have a shot at making the sub bench.

In terms of youth, there is barely anything out there with the exception of Wilshere and Oxlade Chamberlian. I wouldn't say the current premiership is weak, but it is in the shadow of La Liga now (you just have to see how United were outplayed by Bilbao).

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Tue 13 Mar 2012, 9:41 am

On topic: The gulf is in style and its becoming much more evident for all to see in the Champions League/Europa League.

EPL: Physical, Fast paced, no time on the ball - dominated by 4-4-2, the easiest formation to figure out.

La Liga: Slow, patient build up, lots of time on the ball - dominated by wingers who tear apart rigid 4-4-2 formations with more experimental formations such as 4-1-2-3 etc.

Serie A: Weird tempo, very defensive games, possession play - dominated by formations where they are stretching the opposition such as 4-2-1-1-2 or 5-2-1-2

This has all been a recent development. The game has remained, but its become more extreme. La Liga is producing some truly exceptional wingers with all round talent, Italy has some of the best defensive minded players now, and England has brutish pressure players - it makes for contrasting styles, and unfortunately for us, seems the EPL style is the easiest to play their normal way against. Takes a change of plan on Premiership teams' part to get anything out of a game. Used to be the other way round.

Off topic:

legendkillar wrote:Would you like to provide the fact with a link that supports that David Villa is higher regarded than Torres?

Can't wait for this one.

Fernando Torres - Capped in 2003 for Spain Caps - 91 Goals - 27

David Villa - Capped in 2005 for Spain Caps - 82 Goals - 51

I'm not sure where to start. He has been in the Spanish team for a shorter amount of time, averaging 11 caps per year. He has also scored in 62% of the games he's played in (average)

Fernando Torres has an average of 10 caps a year. He has also scored in 29% of the games he's played on an average.

I could go on to quote various news stories about how Vincent del Bosque regards David Villa as one of the finest strikers he's ever worked with - you know yourself Torres hardly featured in the team that won the World Cup, where David Villa was a pretty prominent figure. I can post teamsheets if you like, and i can show videos of Fernando Torres sitting on the bench sulking.

I just don't understand your logic. At all. Torres isn't prolific. He has bouts of great form and disappears again. He needs to be top dog or he looks incredibly mediocre when world class players are better. He had a spectacular debut season at Anfield and then, like most strikers they sign, went off the boil. Hero worshipped. Players at Liverpool who do even remotely well get paraded as being the greatest player to grace the city, and then the plaudits come flying in as they get compared with Dalglish, Keegan, Rush etc.

They then start believing in their own hype and thinking they don't need to try.

Torres is a good player, but because Liverpool worshipped him, he gave up and lost his hunger.

Do truly world class strikers go nearly 24 hours on a Football pitch without scoring?

Need i go on or will you admit your statement was silly?


Last edited by JabMachineMK2 on Tue 13 Mar 2012, 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Scott is Back on Tue 13 Mar 2012, 12:11 pm

legendkillar wrote:
JabMachineMK2 wrote:No - but you have to ask yourself if he truly belongs with Ronaldo, Messi and Rooney. Maybe even Rooney doesn't belong in that list.

I'm not sure you understand that Torres while being a good player, is nothing compared with those 3.

Torres has won European Championship and World Cup. Has Ronaldo or Messi? Nope. 50 PL goals in 84 appearances is quite a record. 65 goals in 102 appearances is some ratio.

Rooney has enjoyed a lot of domestic success with Utd like Messi and Ronaldo. Can't see why he can't be put in the same category.

John O'Shea has a Champions League Winners Medal....Whats your point?

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Post by d260005p on Tue 13 Mar 2012, 12:55 pm

Scott is Back wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
JabMachineMK2 wrote:No - but you have to ask yourself if he truly belongs with Ronaldo, Messi and Rooney. Maybe even Rooney doesn't belong in that list.

I'm not sure you understand that Torres while being a good player, is nothing compared with those 3.

Torres has won European Championship and World Cup. Has Ronaldo or Messi? Nope. 50 PL goals in 84 appearances is quite a record. 65 goals in 102 appearances is some ratio.

Rooney has enjoyed a lot of domestic success with Utd like Messi and Ronaldo. Can't see why he can't be put in the same category.




John O'Shea has a Champions League Winners Medal....Whats your point?

50 out of 84 is indeed a decent record. But when compared to a midfielder/cf in Ronaldo, its pathetic. You can not compare ANYONE in the WORLD to Ronaldo or Messi because they are simply on another level.

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Post by Stella on Tue 13 Mar 2012, 3:35 pm

Torres never has been and never will be a 'great' player.

As to the article.

One bad season means nothing but I do feel the PL has been over hyped in the past.

Torres scoring for fun is proof of that although he for some reason has lost all confidence at the moment.
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