The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

England Front row of the future ... Today !

+14
Poorfour
Hood83
HammerofThunor
Chjw131
thomh
Killer_B_6
sugarNspikes
Geordie
gowales
Cumbrian
ChequeredJersey
Zander
HQ matt
EngInAuck
18 posters

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by EngInAuck 19.05.12 2:18

Dan Cole (28 caps): 25 years of age
Alex Corbisiero (15):23
Dylan Hartley (39) :26
Joe Gray (0):23
Joe Marler (0) :21
Matt Mullan: (1) :25.

I Have never claimed to have understood the Dark arts of front row play but what i do know is that it normally takes a considerable amount of time to master the skills to an international standard.

Yet england have a combined age of their starting props of 48 , and these guys have more than proved their worth by absolutely destroying Ireland in the 6 nations. They also have even younger promising talent coming up through the ranks (Marler).

As an England supporter im glad we have such youth that could easily still be around in over 10 years time.

Is there a younger front row combination in international rugby that is just as effective or close ?

How are other nations doing in comparison ?

EngInAuck
EngInAuck

Posts : 227
Join date : 2011-11-08
Location : Auckland

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by HQ matt 19.05.12 10:04

no depth at TH though, also apart from hartely the promising hookers are unproven.

HQ matt

Posts : 423
Join date : 2011-06-02

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Zander 19.05.12 10:13

HQ matt wrote:no depth at TH though, also apart from hartely the promising hookers are unproven.

I think that's true for a lot of nations though, who do Ireland have at TH after Ross, Wales after Jones and South Africa after Jannie Du Plessis. There are probably more but thats just a few of them. It seems that it is harder to develop quality THs whereas there are a number of good LHs around.

Zander

Posts : 775
Join date : 2012-05-13

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by ChequeredJersey 19.05.12 10:31

Isn't Thomas, the Sale 21 year old, a very promising TH?
ChequeredJersey
ChequeredJersey

Posts : 18707
Join date : 2011-12-23
Age : 33
Location : London, UK

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Zander 19.05.12 10:36

ChequeredJersey wrote:Isn't Thomas, the Sale 21 year old, a very promising TH?

Yes he is, although like Marler he needs to work on his scrummaging which is below par. We just need to get him in with Rowntree who will sort that out.

Zander

Posts : 775
Join date : 2012-05-13

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by ChequeredJersey 19.05.12 10:42

Well, he's 21, he's never going to be a world class scrummager at that age, plenty of time to fix that
ChequeredJersey
ChequeredJersey

Posts : 18707
Join date : 2011-12-23
Age : 33
Location : London, UK

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Cumbrian 19.05.12 10:46

Beating that Irish front row isn't really the yardstick we should judge our front row against. Saying that, the England boys held their own throughout the Six Nations (despite not having the most powerful 2nd rowers behind them) and the test should be how they can kick on from here.

Don't get me wrong though, I think that we have the foundations of something superb. In the future I think Corbisiero and Cole will be the Lions props.
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4875
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 39
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by gowales 19.05.12 12:30

Paul Doran Jones, David Wilson and Matt Stevens aren't exactly bad either. They can hold their own in the scrums at least, which is more than you can say for a lot of other countries replacement/squad tightheads.

gowales

Posts : 2942
Join date : 2011-06-17

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by gowales 19.05.12 12:35

I've also been impressed by Rupert Harden in the few times i've seen him play, but he's really an unknown quantity at the highest club level, never mind international

gowales

Posts : 2942
Join date : 2011-06-17

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Geordie 19.05.12 13:03

Cumbrian wrote:Beating that Irish front row isn't really the yardstick we should judge our front row against. Saying that, the England boys held their own throughout the Six Nations (despite not having the most powerful 2nd rowers behind them) and the test should be how they can kick on from here.

Don't get me wrong though, I think that we have the foundations of something superb. In the future I think Corbisiero and Cole will be the Lions props.

I can always rely on my northerns marras to make the intelligent points and this is yet another.

A good prop can be hugely disadvantaged by the second rows behind him.

Generally the heavier "enforcer" second row will pack down on the tight head side to give extra support.

Previously we have had Johno , Grewcock, Simon Shaw...all massive powerful guys...but at present i dont believe we have a particularly powerful second row pairing.

But back on topic...i think we are looking very good in this poisition. The young Sale lad is the obvious one...who hopefully will really improve his scrummaging.
Theres a few further down the line ...the U18 prop Scott Wilson at the Falcons is a huge fellow...but he's not even a falcon yet.... and im sure Leicester etc have theirs coming through also.

I have much hope for the young hookers...Youngs, George and Lindsay in paticular....

Geordie

Posts : 25848
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by sugarNspikes 19.05.12 13:07

What's happened to Golding? He looked like he was breaking through a year or two ago.

I seem to recall he got injured.

sugarNspikes

Posts : 864
Join date : 2012-04-02

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Zander 19.05.12 13:10

sugarNspikes wrote:What's happened to Golding? He looked like he was breaking through a year or two ago.

I seem to recall he got injured.

I think he was injured for a large part of the season and so missed out on developing on his good previous seasons.

Zander

Posts : 775
Join date : 2012-05-13

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Geordie 19.05.12 13:10

Yeah he got injured....but he is still class. Im not sure now he'll overtake Corbs or Mullan now though

Geordie

Posts : 25848
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by gowales 19.05.12 13:11

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Beating that Irish front row isn't really the yardstick we should judge our front row against. Saying that, the England boys held their own throughout the Six Nations (despite not having the most powerful 2nd rowers behind them) and the test should be how they can kick on from here.

Don't get me wrong though, I think that we have the foundations of something superb. In the future I think Corbisiero and Cole will be the Lions props.

I can always rely on my northerns marras to make the intelligent points and this is yet another.

A good prop can be hugely disadvantaged by the second rows behind him.

Generally the heavier "enforcer" second row will pack down on the tight head side to give extra support.

Previously we have had Johno , Grewcock, Simon Shaw...all massive powerful guys...but at present i dont believe we have a particularly powerful second row pairing.

But back on topic...i think we are looking very good in this poisition. The young Sale lad is the obvious one...who hopefully will really improve his scrummaging.
Theres a few further down the line ...the U18 prop Scott Wilson at the Falcons is a huge fellow...but he's not even a falcon yet.... and im sure Leicester etc have theirs coming through also.

I have much hope for the young hookers...Youngs, George and Lindsay in paticular....

Dan Cole said a few years ago that having Louis Deacon really helped him as well.

I also think France benefit from big, heavy locks as well with guys like Nallett, Millo-Chluski, Pape, Maestri

gowales

Posts : 2942
Join date : 2011-06-17

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by sugarNspikes 19.05.12 13:13

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah he got injured....but he is still class. Im not sure now he'll overtake Corbs or Mullan now though
Yeah, I've just checked. Golding has just turned 29, not at all old for a prop, but probaly not going to oust the younger guys at this stage. Shame for him as around 2009/10 he really looked the business. Have to admit I've not seen much of him recently.

sugarNspikes

Posts : 864
Join date : 2012-04-02

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Geordie 19.05.12 13:16

Golding has a big job anyway trying help get us back to being a decent side....

Geordie

Posts : 25848
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Killer_B_6 19.05.12 13:20

Golding should have been a regular when T-Payne was hogging the shirt.

PDJ would be fine on the tighthead for England if Dan Cole got injured, just not spectacular.

Henry Thomas will be a special player in a year or so and I'm sure he'll be the back up TH by the Six Nations in 2014.

Our prop pool by then should be immense: Cole, Thomas, Harden/PDJ, Marler, Corbs, Mullan/Vunipola.

Killer_B_6

Posts : 72
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Essex, England

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by thomh 19.05.12 14:53

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Beating that Irish front row isn't really the yardstick we should judge our front row against. Saying that, the England boys held their own throughout the Six Nations (despite not having the most powerful 2nd rowers behind them) and the test should be how they can kick on from here.

Don't get me wrong though, I think that we have the foundations of something superb. In the future I think Corbisiero and Cole will be the Lions props.

I can always rely on my northerns marras to make the intelligent points and this is yet another.

A good prop can be hugely disadvantaged by the second rows behind him.

...which makes the fact that Botha went off surprisingly early in the Ireland game even more impressive. Palmer and Parling is pretty small for an international second row.

If we can get to the stage when all of Corbisiero, Marler, Mullan, Cole, Doran-Jones and Thomas are challenging for places then we'll be in good shape. All offer a lot around the field and well as in the tight, and having skilled players in the front 5 can be very useful.

thomh

Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Chjw131 19.05.12 15:45

We do have some excellent depth at prop thankfully. As others have said the likes of Mullan, Marler, Corbs etc.. on the LH and Cole, PDJ, Stevens etc.. can already come straight in to a test side.

That's without the more emerging talents of Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie on the LH; Harden (25?), Thomas and Kieran Brookes (what's happened to him at Tigers? Another poor choice on moving from Falcons!) on the TH.

At hooker we're short on people to come straight in but obviously Hartley, then it's a case of Webber, Gray (too small for my liking) and the more emerging talents of Youngs, George and Lindsay. I also thought Buchanan has done a superb job coming in at Quins. I was very impressed with him for a 20 year old.

The problem for us at the moment is not the depth of players available it's giving the right ones the opportunities to become great test players that is the problem. It's something England suffer from in a variety of positions, there's almost too many options some time.

Take Payne for example. Arguably Golding should have had a shot in '09 but if your main LH is out, who do you turn to? A young prop of 25 or so or someone a bit more grizzled who's one Heineken Cups etc... to come in and be dependable in an international tournament. Golding should have got a chance, but you can understand why MJ made that call.

Chjw131

Posts : 1714
Join date : 2011-08-08

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Geordie 19.05.12 16:06

At hooker we're short on people to come straight in but obviously Hartley, then it's a case of Webber, Gray (too small for my liking) and the more emerging talents of Youngs, George and Lindsay. I also thought Buchanan has done a superb job coming in at Quins. I was very impressed with him for a 20 year old.

Buchanan and gray are similar to me...and just remind me of mears.

Whilst Tom Youngs is equally as small height wise...he is much heavier and powerful.
Lindsay for me could be the real deal...big guy...powerful scrumager, excellent in the loose (ex centre) and at 20? played almost a full season due to injuries....he just needs to get his lineout sorted...as many have mentioned previously. I think Tom Youngs is also not brilliant at this...otherwise both of these could be pushing ahead of Hartley in actual ability.

Take Payne for example. Arguably Golding should have had a shot in '09 but if your main LH is out, who do you turn to? A young prop of 25 or so or someone a bit more grizzled who's one Heineken Cups etc... to come in and be dependable in an international tournament. Golding should have got a chance, but you can understand why MJ made that call.

But thats typical England. We take the "safe" option....whilst the likes of the Kiwis / Sa etc would say jeez mate we got a cracker here...let him loose!!

Geordie

Posts : 25848
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by HammerofThunor 19.05.12 16:12

Brooker got injured early on (which really messed up the Tigers). He'll be starting during the AI and 6N (9+ games) and be on the bench when one of Cole or Castro aren't available (another 5 games for Cole not counting injuries). He's only 22 so in a few years he'll be ready to take over from Castro.

HammerofThunor

Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by HammerofThunor 19.05.12 16:17

Buchanan is an inch shorter than Hartley and just under a stone lighter. But he's also around 4 years younger. He's 3 inches and nearly a stone heavier than Mears (now).

HammerofThunor

Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Hood83 20.05.12 0:22

GeordieFalcon wrote:
At hooker we're short on people to come straight in but obviously Hartley, then it's a case of Webber, Gray (too small for my liking) and the more emerging talents of Youngs, George and Lindsay. I also thought Buchanan has done a superb job coming in at Quins. I was very impressed with him for a 20 year old.

Buchanan and gray are similar to me...and just remind me of mears.

Whilst Tom Youngs is equally as small height wise...he is much heavier and powerful.
Lindsay for me could be the real deal...big guy...powerful scrumager, excellent in the loose (ex centre) and at 20? played almost a full season due to injuries....he just needs to get his lineout sorted...as many have mentioned previously. I think Tom Youngs is also not brilliant at this...otherwise both of these could be pushing ahead of Hartley in actual ability.

Take Payne for example. Arguably Golding should have had a shot in '09 but if your main LH is out, who do you turn to? A young prop of 25 or so or someone a bit more grizzled who's one Heineken Cups etc... to come in and be dependable in an international tournament. Golding should have got a chance, but you can understand why MJ made that call.

But thats typical England. We take the "safe" option....whilst the likes of the Kiwis / Sa etc would say jeez mate we got a cracker here...let him loose!!

I think Lindsay is not that young sadly, more like 24/25. He had a lot of injuries i think? I'm not sure if that already mean's he's lost his chance. It'd be unfortunate if so, but i could see something thinking that a work in progress (throwing) at 24 is not as desirable as one at 20. Mind you, T Youngs appears to be making waves so who knows.

One thing on Lindsay i would say though is - he's not exactly a head's up rugby player. Maybe that's fine for a hooker, but a world class hooker? I'm not sure. Physically he's certainly all there.

Hood83

Posts : 2751
Join date : 2011-06-12

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Poorfour 20.05.12 8:17

Lee Mears is 5'9" and 15st 6lb.

Joe Gray is 6'1" and 16st. That puts him at the lighter end of international hookers, but in the company of such noted lightweights as Servat and Szarzewski.

We won't know whether he can cut it internationally unless he plays, but the "too small" argument doesn't really stack up.
Poorfour
Poorfour

Posts : 5185
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Zander 20.05.12 10:33

Poorfour wrote:Lee Mears is 5'9" and 15st 6lb.

Joe Gray is 6'1" and 16st. That puts him at the lighter end of international hookers, but in the company of such noted lightweights as Servat and Szarzewski.

We won't know whether he can cut it internationally unless he plays, but the "too small" argument doesn't really stack up.

I hope he gets the bench spot over Mears, who really isn't great and can't cut it as an international hooker.

Zander

Posts : 775
Join date : 2012-05-13

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by yappysnap 20.05.12 11:13

Gray's throwing is absolutely spot on, which in this day and age is more important then scrummaging for hookers.

I am massively biased but I just don't get where the too small argument has come from. The Quins pack has been acknowledged as really improving and Gray has had a hand in that, i'd like to see him given a go on the tour.

yappysnap

Posts : 11886
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 34
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Zander 20.05.12 11:22

yappysnap wrote:Gray's throwing is absolutely spot on, which in this day and age is more important then scrummaging for hookers.

I am massively biased but I just don't get where the too small argument has come from. The Quins pack has been acknowledged as really improving and Gray has had a hand in that, i'd like to see him given a go on the tour.

I agree, without a good throwing hooker, line outs really do seem to struggle.

Zander

Posts : 775
Join date : 2012-05-13

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Geordie 20.05.12 12:15

I actually didnt realise Gray was that size...i genuinely thought he was on a par with Mears...

Anyway your right size shouldnt be the issue its ability and we'll have to see how they go in SA...

Geordie

Posts : 25848
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Cumbrian 20.05.12 13:00

The hookers who have come through the U20’s in the last 2-3 years:

Current England U20:

Nathan Morris (0 Appearances in the league this season)
Koree Britton (0 Appearances in the league this season)
Scott Spurling (1 Appearance in the league this season)

Okay, they are young but they are also stuck behind players at their clubs. Spurling is stuck behind Schalk Brits, John Smit and Jamie George. Gloucester may be losing Cortese and Scott Lawson, but they are bringing in Huia Edmonds and Andy Long. That leaves Britton behind those two and Dawiduik (who may also be an option, although a bit on the small side). Morris has been behind Webber, Lindsay and Korshunov this season. Newxt season Webber and Korshunov are leaving, but Rhys Thomas is arriving.

The other thing is, I could see Spurling and Morris switch allegiances to Scotland and Wales respectively in the future. The Scots have already sniffed Spurling out and Morris moved to England from Wales when he was a baby.


Last Years U20’s

Mike Haywood (12 league appearances this season)
Rob Buchanan (6 league appearances this season)
Koree Britton

Haywood was winning some very good reviews before his injury, unfortunately he has had two dislocated shoulders (which can’t be good for a front rower). Those who think Gray is too small may also think Haywood is too small at 5’11 and around 15 stone. Hopefully he’ll come back stronger next year and get a good number of starts. He’s behind Hartley (who will be away with England a lot), but he’s equal/ surpassing Brett Sharman and Andy Long is leaving the Saints, so game time seems probable.

I wasn’t that sure about Buchanan when he played for the U20’s, I thought there was a chance of him being switched to one of the props, but he seems to be coming good for the Quins. His basics seem okay and I like the barging runs he makes, seems a difficult man to put down. He’s behind Joe Gray and Chris Brooker and will have Dave Ward to contend with (he is replacing Matt Cairns). It is possible that one or even two of these may be off with England/ Saxons, so he should have opportunities.


2010 U20’s

Jamie George (Played 17 league games this season)
Arthur Ellis

Arthur Ellis has gone to play in Wales for the Newport Gwent Dragons, I believe has chosen to play for Wales and isn’t an option. Jamie George has been the big hope for a while now, he looked excellent for the U20’s and seemingly had all of the attributes to kick on ( good set piece, size, speed, the ability to make the hard yards etc) which made it more disappointing when Sarries signed Smit. But he has 17 league appearances this season (14 as a sub). To be honest, at just 21 he is getting the sort of game time you’d expect most front rowers of that age to get (Marler and Thomas are the exception to the general rule). Lets hope he kicks on next season and gets a few more starts though.
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4875
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 39
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Killer_B_6 20.05.12 16:37

Tom Lindsay will never play international rugby. He has been in the position for a few years now and his throwing hasn't improved.

He's a tank around the park, but his vision is so poor - he just puts his head down and carries.

Hartley and Gray will always be ahead of him and Tom Youngs is also a lot better than him.

Killer_B_6

Posts : 72
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Essex, England

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by yappysnap 20.05.12 17:41

I think Hartley is a lot better then most of us give him credit for, but he does need to be switched out to get some of his drive back. I remember he made a great impact coming off the bench for Mears/Thompson.

Any one seen how Sinckler (?) has played for the age grades? When i've seen him he's looked pretty impressive and useful aroung the park but lacking a bit of fitness.

yappysnap

Posts : 11886
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 34
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Zander 20.05.12 18:31

yappysnap wrote:I think Hartley is a lot better then most of us give him credit for, but he does need to be switched out to get some of his drive back. I remember he made a great impact coming off the bench for Mears/Thompson.

Any one seen how Sinckler (?) has played for the age grades? When i've seen him he's looked pretty impressive and useful aroung the park but lacking a bit of fitness.

I have to say I haven't seen much of him at age grades but he is in the England squad for this year's Under 20s Junior World Championship, so we'll have to see how he gets on there.

Zander

Posts : 775
Join date : 2012-05-13

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Killer_B_6 21.05.12 0:11

yappysnap wrote:I think Hartley is a lot better then most of us give him credit for, but he does need to be switched out to get some of his drive back. I remember he made a great impact coming off the bench for Mears/Thompson.

Hartley IS a lot better than he's given credit for. He's very solid in the set piece and very aggressive around the park. He hits rucks hard.

I would love for him to bring back that ball carrying edge he had when he first came through and that's what he needs to be considered a top class international. However, he doesn't need that to hold down the England jersey.

Gray to me is the obvious back up. His set piece is rock solid and he gets around the park well - perfect to bring on for the last 15-20 minutes. He isn't as abrasive as Hartley but he is very mobile - like an extra flanker.

I'm happy for Mears to be around for the South Africa tour. He has toured with the Lions and is a solid experienced alternative to Tom Youngs in the midweek side. He is solid in the lineout and gets around the park but he gets knocked about a bit in the scrum as he is a bit lightweight but he's been a solid servant for England, more often than not. People forget that.

The joker in the pack is Tom Youngs. He looked brilliant for Nottingham last year and has impressed when he has been given a chance for the Tigers. Being a former centre, he's probably the best around the park out of all the hookers available to us. His scrummaging is also apparently very strong (he's been compared to the famous Julian White). However, his lineout is mediocre at best so I am glad he will be training with the elite squad and hopefully very closely with Lee Mears who is an excellent lineout thrower. What I expect from him is to learn a lot, impress in midweek and come back in 2012/13 and secure the Tigers' hooker shirt.

Other impressive youngsters coming through are Britton, Sinckler, Buchanan, George and Haywood. George and Haywood are great talents and could definitely push for a place by RWC 2015 but are behind Brits and Hartley, two of the best hookers in the league, for their clubs at the moment.

Killer_B_6

Posts : 72
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Essex, England

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by HammerofThunor 21.05.12 7:55

Isn't Sinckler a tighthead prop?

HammerofThunor

Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Cumbrian 21.05.12 10:27

HammerofThunor wrote:Isn't Sinckler a tighthead prop?

Yeah, he plays tight-head for the U20's, Cowan-Dickie plays loose-head. He covers the tighthead side for quins too I believe. Quins are developing some good young tight five forwards like Sinkler, Buchanan, Will Collier, Charlie Matthews, George Merrick, Sam Twomey and Darryl Marfo.
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4875
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 39
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Zander 21.05.12 19:34

I've been impressed with Buchanan considering he has had to fill in after the injuries of Brooker and Gray. Also, I think Matthews looks like a real prospect, we do have a lot of choice at second row right now for England.

Zander

Posts : 775
Join date : 2012-05-13

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by yappysnap 21.05.12 20:37

Matthews will be a few seasons yet before we can see him regularly.

I am amazed by the amount of 20-25 year old forwards who are looking ready to have a crack at the highest level though, I assume a lot of this is down to the pro training regimes available now and that a lot of these players are spending their club time learning from greats of the game.

It wasn't that long ago that everyone thought props weren't ready for internationals till they were in their late 20's.

Maybe the sheer volume of matches played in the leagues as well helps to teach players a lot quicker now as well? These lads can easily get to 50 club caps by their 20th/21st birthdays, add in age grade internationals and A games and that is A LOT of high quality rugby compares to a decade ago.

yappysnap

Posts : 11886
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 34
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Geordie 21.05.12 20:53

Yappy....

Maybe its just that the academies are working exceptionally well...

Geordie

Posts : 25848
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by HongKongCherry 21.05.12 21:58

Cumbrian wrote: Gloucester may be losing Cortese and Scott Lawson, but they are bringing in Huia Edmonds and Andy Long. That leaves Britton behind those two and Dawiduik (who may also be an option, although a bit on the small side).

It's been confirmed Britton will be loaned out next season to get game time. He is definitely impressive around the park and his scrummaging is decent, but I must admit every time I've seen him his throwing has been woeful.

On the Gloucester front row, I was waxing lyrical earlier this season about Harden, but his form did tail off towards the last quarter of the season. I still firmly believe he will go on and start pushing for international recognition, but he needs to do more in the loose (not defensively - he's very good there) and build more consistency in the scrum. The longer term option is Shaun Knight. He is now 2nd choice TH at Glaws and he is going to push Harden all the way and at 21 has plenty of time to develop. He is very strong in the scrum, he just needs to work on his technique slightly, but very, very promising.
HongKongCherry
HongKongCherry

Posts : 3297
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Glawster

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by yappysnap 21.05.12 22:00

Geordie,

I think I read that the regional academies are being scrapped, so let's hope they're not contributing!

yappysnap

Posts : 11886
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 34
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by yappysnap 21.05.12 22:02

Hongkong, have you noticed that a lot of the Glos tight five don't do much around the park other then tackling? Very good scrummaging unit but need to contribute a lot more in attack. Losing Attwood probably didn't help though.

yappysnap

Posts : 11886
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 34
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by HongKongCherry 21.05.12 22:11

yappysnap wrote:Hongkong, have you noticed that a lot of the Glos tight five don't do much around the park other then tackling? Very good scrummaging unit but need to contribute a lot more in attack. Losing Attwood probably didn't help though.

This is largely due to either not imposing themselves enough in games and so having to defend or playing to the game plan of just chucking it to the backs, both of which will hopefully be rectified next season. Edmonds should add some attacking flair and my bet for next season is Tom Savage really coming to the fore. He is a destructive ball carrier, so regular game time should bode well.
HongKongCherry
HongKongCherry

Posts : 3297
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Glawster

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Seagultaf 21.05.12 22:22

[quote="yappysnap"]I think Hartley is a lot better then most of us give him credit for, but he does need to be switched out to get some of his drive back. I remember he made a great impact coming off the bench for Mears/Thompson.

England have an excellent tight pack of forwards, but I just do not rate Hartley. He gets around the park, his throwing is rarely straight but he gets away with it, so thats a bonus. I have two issues with him; his discipline is poor so he is a liability for any team he plays for, also, even between two strong props, any pressure in the scrum and he pops up like a cork in a bottle.

If England can find another hooker like Thomson they really will have a formidable front row!

Seagultaf

Posts : 1404
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ospreylia

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by thomh 21.05.12 22:40

Is Hartley's popping up because he's under pressure? I've always heard it said that he deliberately drives upwards when on the front foot to make it look like the opposition are doing that, but I'm no expert on that.

thomh

Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Geordie 21.05.12 23:03

yappysnap wrote:Geordie,

I think I read that the regional academies are being scrapped, so let's hope they're not contributing!

Maybe just the actual club academies are working...and id like to see the stats of how many foreigners are in these days....i would guess that its less and that more youngsters are being given games over journeymen....maybe due to the salary caps??

It would appear that we have some serious hookers...but the common trend is that none of them can throw.

But then if i remember right...even Mr Thompsons throwing was poor when he first started in the England camp....

Geordie

Posts : 25848
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Cumbrian 22.05.12 10:39

HongKongCherry wrote:
Cumbrian wrote: Gloucester may be losing Cortese and Scott Lawson, but they are bringing in Huia Edmonds and Andy Long. That leaves Britton behind those two and Dawiduik (who may also be an option, although a bit on the small side).

It's been confirmed Britton will be loaned out next season to get game time. He is definitely impressive around the park and his scrummaging is decent, but I must admit every time I've seen him his throwing has been woeful.

On the Gloucester front row, I was waxing lyrical earlier this season about Harden, but his form did tail off towards the last quarter of the season. I still firmly believe he will go on and start pushing for international recognition, but he needs to do more in the loose (not defensively - he's very good there) and build more consistency in the scrum. The longer term option is Shaun Knight. He is now 2nd choice TH at Glaws and he is going to push Harden all the way and at 21 has plenty of time to develop. He is very strong in the scrum, he just needs to work on his technique slightly, but very, very promising.

Fair enough, it sounds like that is probably going to be the best option for him. Hopefully he’ll go somewhere (Moseley?) that will give him plenty of game time.

I always thought Shaun Knight looked like a solid prospect. I haven’t seen him play for a while but he looks like the sort of unflashy prop who will anchor the scrum and do his job properly. Indeed, I remember having an argument on the old 606 with someone who was saying Knight wouldn’t make it because props will need to be explosive around the pitch in the future. Knight was in the same U20’s team as Marler and that became my opposite’s point of reference. I disagreed then and still do, a prop earns his meat in the scrum! laughing

GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Geordie,

I think I read that the regional academies are being scrapped, so let's hope they're not contributing!

Maybe just the actual club academies are working...and id like to see the stats of how many foreigners are in these days....i would guess that its less and that more youngsters are being given games over journeymen....maybe due to the salary caps??

It would appear that we have some serious hookers...but the common trend is that none of them can throw.

But then if i remember right...even Mr Thompsons throwing was poor when he first started in the England camp....

I might be being thick here, 'regional academies' is a different name for the 14 club academies isn't it? It sets out the geographical area that the clubs take their players from and is funded from the rfu? I hope they aren't being scrapped, it is my opinion that the glut of good young players we've got now is because of the academy system set up in 2001/2.
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4875
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 39
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by bluestonevedder 22.05.12 10:42

There's no doubt that England are developing some really good young props. Dan Cole to me, just seems to be a bit of a freak- he's way ahead of him time, and certainly looks like a seasoned pro. Corbs in developing nicely as well, and reminds me a bit of Gethin Jenkins with his work around the park. English props are rising through the ranks very quickly, and I really think that in a few seasons time we could be seeing rotational starts between a few lads; Cole, Corbs, Marler, Mullan, PDJ, and Thomas.

Credit due to Mr Rowntree again I think- he certainly knows what he is doing.

bluestonevedder

Posts : 3952
Join date : 2011-08-22

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Zander 22.05.12 17:07

bluestonevedder wrote:There's no doubt that England are developing some really good young props. Dan Cole to me, just seems to be a bit of a freak- he's way ahead of him time, and certainly looks like a seasoned pro. Corbs in developing nicely as well, and reminds me a bit of Gethin Jenkins with his work around the park. English props are rising through the ranks very quickly, and I really think that in a few seasons time we could be seeing rotational starts between a few lads; Cole, Corbs, Marler, Mullan, PDJ, and Thomas.

Credit due to Mr Rowntree again I think- he certainly knows what he is doing.

I agree, it looks like since Rowntree has been working with Marler his scrummaging has improved greatly, which was the one area he struggled in. A lot of credit has to go to Rowntree for improving our forwards weaknesses.

Zander

Posts : 775
Join date : 2012-05-13

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by HongKongCherry 22.05.12 20:19

Cumbrian wrote:
I always thought Shaun Knight looked like a solid prospect. I haven’t seen him play for a while but he looks like the sort of unflashy prop who will anchor the scrum and do his job properly. Indeed, I remember having an argument on the old 606 with someone who was saying Knight wouldn’t make it because props will need to be explosive around the pitch in the future. Knight was in the same U20’s team as Marler and that became my opposite’s point of reference. I disagreed then and still do, a prop earns his meat in the scrum! laughing

Totally agree. The day props stop being about scrummaging will probably be the day I walk away from the sport. broken
HongKongCherry
HongKongCherry

Posts : 3297
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Glawster

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Geordie 22.05.12 22:02

Ttoally agree...Cumbrian lad...

A prop NEEDS to be able to prop.

Geordie

Posts : 25848
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England Front row of the future ... Today ! Empty Re: England Front row of the future ... Today !

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum