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England/West Indies All time XI

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Post by Stella Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:21 pm

Well, it's raining and grim, so I thought I would!

The West Indies are no longer the fearsome side that once wreaked havoc across the cricketing world but once not that long ago, they did.

Due to this, picking a composite XI is never going to be easy.

Mine would be:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Headley
V Richards
Lara
Sobers
Knott
Marshall
Barnes
Ambrose
Trueman


Last edited by Stella on Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by gboycottnut Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:29 pm

My composite England-West Indies XI :-

1) Hutton
2) Boycott
3) V Richards
4) Rowe
5) Lara
6) Sobers
7) Botham
8) Ames
9) Larwood
10)Clarke
11)Trueman

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Post by Stella Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:30 pm

I forgot Sobers Erm

I will edit my team.
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Post by Stella Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:32 pm

Is that Sylvester Clarke?
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Post by dummy_half Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:44 pm

Best composite England / Windies team (not entirely serious):

Greenidge
Haynes
Lara
Richards
Lloyd (c) (Headley was a better batsman, but CL was a hugely effective captain)
Sobers (token spin bowling option, could bat a bit too)
Knott (token Englishman - better keeper and batsman than Dujon or Murray)
Marshall
Holding
Roberts
Garner

Sub fielder - Roger Harper

Being a bit more serious, I'd obviously bring Hobbs in for Haynes, and it was tough to leave Curtley Ambrose out but I think Garner was an even better tall fast bowler (and those 4 quicks actually played together for about a year between Marshall making the team and Roberts retiring).

Obviously, for stats Sid Barnes would displace one of the four quicks (probably Roberts), but would you really want to make that change?


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Post by gboycottnut Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:48 pm

Stella wrote:Is that Sylvester Clarke?

Yes. Sylvester Clarke was a very underestimated fast bowler during the early 1980's. He was very tall, with a strong back and powerful arms who could bowl very fast off a few paces runup. Sadly though due to a combination of playing at the same time and era as an already established WI pace quartet and also deciding to go on the rebel South Africa tour he never made as many test appearances for the official WI test team as he should have done. He would no doubt have played in the 1984 official WI test side that toured England had he not went on the rebel SA tour the year before

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:39 pm

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Headley
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Knott
Ambrose
Marshall
Holding
Barnes

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Post by gboycottnut Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:21 pm

What about this collection of great England cricketers from the 1980's through to the late 1990's who could have played for the West Indies 'C' Team :-

1) Slack
2) R.Butcher (wicketkeeper)
3) Lynch
4) M.Alleyne (captain)
5) C.Lewis (star player and all-rounder)
6) DeFreitais
7) D.Headley
8) Small
9) Cowans
10) Malcolm
11) Lawrence
12th Man) J Benjamin

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Post by guildfordbat Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:26 pm

gboycottnut wrote:
Stella wrote:Is that Sylvester Clarke?

Yes. Sylvester Clarke was a very underestimated fast bowler during the early 1980's. He was very tall, with a strong back and powerful arms who could bowl very fast off a few paces runup. Sadly though due to a combination of playing at the same time and era as an already established WI pace quartet and also deciding to go on the rebel South Africa tour he never made as many test appearances for the official WI test team as he should have done. He would no doubt have played in the 1984 official WI test side that toured England had he not went on the rebel SA tour the year before

Sylve played with distinction for Surrey throughout most of the 1980s. More than a dozen years after his tragically early death, he is still remembered with much affection at the Oval. His thirst for wickets was perhaps matched only by that of his for a good drink. Surrey Supporters Club honour his memory each year with an award for an outstanding performance - the Sylvester Clarke Large Rum Moment of the Season.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:53 pm

gboycottnut wrote: .... great England cricketers from the 1980's through to the late 1990's who could have played for the West Indies 'C' Team ....

Perhaps worth pointing out that a certain former Reading schoolboy qualified on residency grounds to play for England before opting for the West Indies, country of his birth and his parents.

Namely Gordon Greenidge.

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Post by gboycottnut Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:48 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
gboycottnut wrote: .... great England cricketers from the 1980's through to the late 1990's who could have played for the West Indies 'C' Team ....

Perhaps worth pointing out that a certain former Reading schoolboy qualified on residency grounds to play for England before opting for the West Indies, country of his birth and his parents.

Namely Gordon Greenidge.

But Gordon Greenidge cannot be considered as he was actually a good player at a test match level.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:37 pm

gboycottnut wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
gboycottnut wrote: .... great England cricketers from the 1980's through to the late 1990's who could have played for the West Indies 'C' Team ....

Perhaps worth pointing out that a certain former Reading schoolboy qualified on residency grounds to play for England before opting for the West Indies, country of his birth and his parents.

Namely Gordon Greenidge.

But Gordon Greenidge cannot be considered as he was actually a good player at a test match level.

Not just a good player, a great player.

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:38 pm

Stella wrote:Well, it's raining and grim, so I thought I would!

The West Indies are no longer the fearsome side that once wreaked havoc across the cricketing world but once not that long ago, they did.

Due to this, picking a composite XI is never going to be easy.

Mine would be:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Headley
V Richards
Lara
Sobers
Knott
Marshall
Barnes
Ambrose
Trueman

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head, though I would be tempted to consider Ames for Knott, and Holding for Ambrose as well as, just perhaps, Botham for Trueman (though that would be a very close call). This is of course a very difficult side to pick and it is clearly hard to exclude the likes of Garner, Walsh, Roberts, Greenidge, Lloyd, Botham, Hutton, Grace, Compton, Laker and Underwood


Last edited by Shelsey93 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:39 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
gboycottnut wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
gboycottnut wrote: .... great England cricketers from the 1980's through to the late 1990's who could have played for the West Indies 'C' Team ....

Perhaps worth pointing out that a certain former Reading schoolboy qualified on residency grounds to play for England before opting for the West Indies, country of his birth and his parents.

Namely Gordon Greenidge.

But Gordon Greenidge cannot be considered as he was actually a good player at a test match level.

Not just a good player, a great player.

The re-vote on Greenidge in the Hall of Fame will certainly be interesting. For now I stand by my position of very, very good but not great (!)

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Post by gboycottnut Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:48 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
gboycottnut wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
gboycottnut wrote: .... great England cricketers from the 1980's through to the late 1990's who could have played for the West Indies 'C' Team ....

Perhaps worth pointing out that a certain former Reading schoolboy qualified on residency grounds to play for England before opting for the West Indies, country of his birth and his parents.

Namely Gordon Greenidge.

But Gordon Greenidge cannot be considered as he was actually a good player at a test match level.

Not just a good player, a great player.

The re-vote on Greenidge in the Hall of Fame will certainly be interesting. For now I stand by my position of very, very good but not great (!)

Well according to his overall batting average at a test match level it is only 44/45, which suggests that he was only a very good player but not that great player as many think he is. Technically he wasn't that sound and he did have a few problems with quality fast bowling early on in his test career. But he could really whack the leather out of the ball when in the mood as he showed at Lords in 1984.

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Post by Stella Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:29 pm

Greenidge like Haynes was very good but not great. Together like Hobbs & Sutcliffe, they were great.
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Post by guildfordbat Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:43 pm

For those interested, there's quite a bit about Greenidge on the Cricket Hall of Fame - Part 1 topic thread (pages 14 and 15) on the Cricket Honours Board.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:25 pm

gboycottnut wrote:What about this collection of great England cricketers from the 1980's through to the late 1990's who could have played for the West Indies 'C' Team :-

1) Slack
2) R.Butcher (wicketkeeper)
3) Lynch
4) M.Alleyne (captain)
5) C.Lewis (star player and all-rounder)
6) DeFreitais
7) D.Headley
8) Small
9) Cowans
10) Malcolm
11) Lawrence
12th Man) J Benjamin

Interesting side - though calling it an international "C" team is more than generous when it comes to the batting line up! Or perhaps I am taking things too literally. Sad that the opening partnership retired hurt from this life at a young age....

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Post by gboycottnut Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:35 pm

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
gboycottnut wrote:What about this collection of great England cricketers from the 1980's through to the late 1990's who could have played for the West Indies 'C' Team :-

1) Slack
2) R.Butcher (wicketkeeper)
3) Lynch
4) M.Alleyne (captain)
5) C.Lewis (star player and all-rounder)
6) DeFreitais
7) D.Headley
8) Small
9) Cowans
10) Malcolm
11) Lawrence
12th Man) J Benjamin

Interesting side - though calling it an international "C" team is more than generous when it comes to the batting line up! Or perhaps I am taking things too literally. Sad that the opening partnership retired hurt from this life at a young age....

Well I was struggling to find 1 or 2 more batsmen who have played for England having a Carribean based background.

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Post by Stella Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:50 pm

Roland Butcher?
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Post by gboycottnut Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:06 pm

Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Already have him in, opening the batting with Wilf Slack. Need at least 2 more as I currently have Chris Lewis batting at 5 with Phil deFreitais at 6! In other words, this West Indies C team is ultra thin on the batting side by having a very long tail.

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:23 pm

gboycottnut wrote:
Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Already have him in, opening the batting with Wilf Slack. Need at least 2 more as I currently have Chris Lewis batting at 5 with Phil deFreitais at 6! In other words, this West Indies C team is ultra thin on the batting side by having a very long tail.

Mark Butcher? Although he may not strictly be from a Caribbean background

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Post by gboycottnut Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:42 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:
gboycottnut wrote:
Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Already have him in, opening the batting with Wilf Slack. Need at least 2 more as I currently have Chris Lewis batting at 5 with Phil deFreitais at 6! In other words, this West Indies C team is ultra thin on the batting side by having a very long tail.

Mark Butcher? Although he may not strictly be from a Caribbean background


Don't think Mark Butcher has any Carribean roots as such. What about Michael Carberry?

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Post by Shelsey93 Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:20 pm

gboycottnut wrote:
Shelsey93 wrote:
gboycottnut wrote:
Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Already have him in, opening the batting with Wilf Slack. Need at least 2 more as I currently have Chris Lewis batting at 5 with Phil deFreitais at 6! In other words, this West Indies C team is ultra thin on the batting side by having a very long tail.

Mark Butcher? Although he may not strictly be from a Caribbean background


Don't think Mark Butcher has any Carribean roots as such. What about Michael Carberry?

Butcher has a Jamaican mother. I don't know if that qualifies for your team ?

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Post by GG Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:04 am

Hutton
Sutcliffe
Headley
Viv
Lara
Sobers
Stephenson
Knott
Ambrose
Marshall
Holding

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Post by DouglasJardinesbox Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:23 am

Hobbs
Cook
Richards
Lara
Lloyd
Botham
Sobers
Knott
Holding
Marshall
Roberts

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Post by gboycottnut Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:29 am

Shelsey93 wrote:
gboycottnut wrote:
Shelsey93 wrote:
gboycottnut wrote:
Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Stella wrote:Roland Butcher?

Already have him in, opening the batting with Wilf Slack. Need at least 2 more as I currently have Chris Lewis batting at 5 with Phil deFreitais at 6! In other words, this West Indies C team is ultra thin on the batting side by having a very long tail.

Mark Butcher? Although he may not strictly be from a Caribbean background


Don't think Mark Butcher has any Carribean roots as such. What about Michael Carberry?

Butcher has a Jamaican mother. I don't know if that qualifies for your team ?

Well if Butcher indeed does have a Jamaican Mother, he can do an Allan Lamb and become eligible to play for my England West Indies C Team through parental qualifications. That makes it what 5 batsman now. Just one more batsman needed so that I don't have to have Chris Lewis batting at number 6!

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:30 am

GG wrote:Hutton
.....
Stephenson
....
Which Stephenson is that?

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Post by gboycottnut Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:36 am

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
GG wrote:Hutton
.....
Stephenson
....
Which Stephenson is that?

Probably John Stephenson who played for Hampshire and played the odd test V Australia in 1989!

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:48 am

What about Michael Carberry (born in Croydon)....I assume at some stage a parent or grandparent etc may have well have come from W Indies, or maybe Africa.....?

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Post by gboycottnut Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:50 am

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:What about Michael Carberry (born in Croydon)....I assume at some stage a parent or grandparent etc may have well have come from W Indies, or maybe Africa.....?

I am not sure about Carberry, which is why I have already asked the question about him.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:53 am

Gboycs - yes, sorry, I thought it was a good question and was just wanting to make sure it didn't get lost in thread. He would be the best batsman in the team if eligible.

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Post by gboycottnut Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:56 am

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Gboycs - yes, sorry, I thought it was a good question and was just wanting to make sure it didn't get lost in thread. He would be the best batsman in the team if eligible.


Well with guys like Wilf Slack, Roland Butcher and Monty Lynch as specialist batsmen, I would have to get Carberry to do a Shiv Chanderpaul by playing him at number 5 in the batting order.

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Post by Stella Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:40 am

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
GG wrote:Hutton
.....
Stephenson
....
Which Stephenson is that?

Franklyn?
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Post by gboycottnut Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:17 am

Stella wrote:
Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
GG wrote:Hutton
.....
Stephenson
....
Which Stephenson is that?

Franklyn?

Franklyn Stephenson never played in an official test match, so it must be John Stephenson the Hampshire opener who played in 1 test match for England V Australia in 1989.

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Post by Stella Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:13 pm

very very very doubtful!
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Post by GG Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:51 pm

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
GG wrote:Hutton
.....
Stephenson
....
Which Stephenson is that?

Franklyn Stephenson. Best player never to play a test.

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Post by gboycottnut Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:14 pm

GG wrote:
Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
GG wrote:Hutton
.....
Stephenson
....
Which Stephenson is that?

Franklyn Stephenson. Best player never to play a test.

Franklyn Stephenson was the best bowling all-rounder in the Carribean in the 1980's.

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