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England vs West Indies Second ODI Debate

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DouglasJardinesbox
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liverbnz
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Mike Selig
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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:41 am

The backdrop to the 2nd ODI between England and the West Indies is a rather sad one, with the tragic death of Tom Maynard.
But the cricket nevertheless has to go ahead. For England, the massive win in the first ODI, with every part of their game working in decent order would give them extra confidence. Ian Bell has started his new innings as ODI opener in some style, now the greater challenge is to keep it going consistently. It is unlikely England would make any change in the team that won the first match, but the possibility of some spin might bring some thoughts about Samit Patel.
As far as the WI goes, they were kind of being built up as the favorits in some sections of the press, but at that point itself I had my doubts, although they have a far better side to challenge the English in this format unlike the case was during the test series.
The West Indies are forced to make at least one change, as the injured Darren Bravo is out of the series and has gone back home. The big question is whether Chris Gayle is fit to come into the side. If he is fit, then he would walk in for Bravo and either Simmons or Dwayne Smith, who had decent success in the first match opening, would bat down the order.
There is a questionmark over Andre Russell's fitness as well. If he is not a hundred %, then Tino Best might get a game.
cricinfo reports that the weather is good for the match, and that the pitch had taken a bit of turn during the domestic season.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:51 am

WI seem to have really struggled with injuries on this tour. Reminds me a bit of England in the 90's. Poor conditioning/workload management or just bad luck?

For me if Simmons plays he has to open the batting really, not enough big shots otherwise. However, I also think Dwayne Smith is best suited to opening (in ODIs) so WI have a bit of a conundrum there. Maybe Smith at 3 is the answer. I expect England to be unchanged.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:00 am

MFC, agree on Simmons. Simmons in fact has done pretty decent opening the innings. Smith is more miss than hit most of the times, but Bravo out, I guess they might bat him at 3 and if Gayle is back he and Simmons would open.
But may be they should seriously think of promoting Samuels up the order to 3 and have Smith smash a few lower down.

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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:20 am

I hear that Gayle is still a doubt for today. If he doesn't play Johnson Charles will probably have to replace Darren Bravo. Otherwise I suspect they will be unchanged. There will be a temptation to include Fidel Edwards or Tino Best but I can't see who they would replace.

England will be unchanged and, for me, remain heavy favourites. Any pre-series suggestion that West Indies were more of a threat in ODIs was in my view wide of the mark. I believe that West Indies, with a decent bowling group, and improving batting line-up, are making strides in Tests. There is also a definite improvement in the shorter forms, but here there is no light and shade in the batting - everybody is a hitter which tends not to work in England - and, crucially, they are missing Kemar Roach.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:25 am

Has the scan report on Gayle come out? Has he been declared unavailable?

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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:26 am

Chris Gayle plays and replaces Bravo, whilst Tino Best replaces Andre Russell (no news as to whether Russell is injured or dropped).

The batting order has been re-jigged: 1 Gayle 2 Simmons 3 Samuels 4 Smith 5 Dwayne Bravo 6 Pollard 7 Ramdin 8 Sammy 9 Rampaul 10 Narine 11 Best

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:28 am

Gayle's available and playing!. England unchanged, won the toss, bowling first.

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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:28 am

Gayle to do his usual? Biff a few, get to 30-40 and be out before 15 overs are up?

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:28 am

I haven't checked the stats msp, but to me Smith looks a better player when he's opening the batting. Too often when he comes in late he tries too hard to smash it everywhere and fails. When he opens he's such a good striker of the ball that he can score quickly without playing daft shots.

You're right of course that Simmons has a pretty decent record opening, hence my idea of Smith at 3. Samuels at 3 is a decent idea too, given the form he's in, but the WI senior players seem reluctant to move up the order...

you look at that WI side and you can't help but feel there's not much solidity in the batting. Gayle, Smith, Samuels, Bravo, Pollard. All great shot makers but none of them look exactly watertight.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:47 am

lovely first over from Anderson getting a bit of swing. Finn vs Gayle now, this should be interesting Very Happy

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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:59 am

2 maidens in a row for Jimmy, who is all over Simmons.

Rare to see consecutive maidens in an ODI.

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Post by Hibbz Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:26 am

Dear Lord that one went into orbit!!!!

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Post by gboycottnut Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:49 am

Tino Best should have opened the batting with Chris Gayle to give the West Indies a much faster start to the innings.

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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:51 am

Well that was a tight call - but perhaps a correct one due to the amount of doubt. Up to that point it looked like two different matches. One with Gayle on strike and one with Simmons on strike.

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Post by Mike Selig Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:51 am

To be fair to Gayle that was a really good knock: calm at the start, had a bit of luck, then took after Bresnan.

Good if somewhat obvious move to bring on Swann pays dividends, Gayle out to a marginal LBW (I thought pad first, just, if you put a gun to my head).

Simmonds needs to take more control now.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:57 am

Gayle showed what he means at the top of the order for West Indies. Fine little comeback innings from the big man, hit some absolutely monstrous ones, particularly against poor old Tim Bresnan.
But now he's gone, gone for a fine 53. The only thing I am not unhappy about that decision though is that it was Graeme Swann who got him. Don't think he was out there, there was a thick edge on that, and by no means was it clear that it was pad first. Poor call from the umpire that. How long will the West Indies continue to fight now?

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:59 am

Dwayne Smith is back to his usual ways, Broad's got him. 63-2.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:01 pm

Simmons isn't helping things much, he could get away with this terrible slow innings when Chris Gayle is at the other end, but even after he was gone, Simmons just couldn't keep the strike moving. It is not that he should hit every ball out of the park, but he should find more singles so that the innings doesn't really stagnate and thus put pressure on the batsman at the other end.

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Post by Hibbz Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:01 pm

I might have looked away and missed it but does anyone remember seeing them actually check that the ball was hitting the stumps?

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:04 pm

Marlon Samuels in at 4. Not much solidity in the WI lineup from now on, but Bravo, Pollard and Sammy can give the ball a good thrashing. It would be important that the WI don't lose any more quick wicket here so that the hitters down the order can be of real use, they can't be expected to stabilize the innings.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:05 pm

Hibbz it was hitting, but first the bat, then the pad, and would have hit the stumps.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:06 pm

didn't see the LBW so won't comment, but if the ump gave it out and Mike says he reckons it was pad first, just, I'll go with that. Simmons really needs to rotate the strike more though, he's getting WI a bit stuck here.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:10 pm

Interestingly, Swanny is been taken off after he got the big wicket. Samuels is in, and he has played better than most in Swann's career so far. But Swanny may have tempted Simmons into something drastic that would have got him out, may be England want him to bat a bit longer.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:12 pm

Simmons is 12 of 47. He just can't get out now after wasting all these balls, but at the same time he has to get a move on as well.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:14 pm

Don't think Steven Finn is looking as sharp as he was when I saw him last year in India, or even the winter series against Pakistan in the UAE. He's still working up decent pace, but it seems there is something gone missing in his bowling.

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Post by Hibbz Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:14 pm

msp83 wrote:Hibbz it was hitting, but first the bat, then the pad, and would have hit the stumps.

Oh yeah I'm sure it was hitting I just didn't remember actually seeing the confirmation in all the furore and wondered whether they'd managed to forget!!

No way was it bat then pad though mate, possibly both at the same time trapped but I as most commentators saw it as pad then bat.

I'd have preferred it if the on field umpire had given the benefit of the doubt to the batsman as I believe they're supposed to but once he'd given it out no way it was going to be over-turned.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:17 pm

Simmons is gone, Cook hits from mid-off! WI in a spot of bother, only really hitters to come now.

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Post by VTR Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:17 pm

Simmons England's player of the morning. Would be worth dropping chances or not appealing to keep him out there!

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Post by VTR Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:19 pm

And he's out! Why didn't Cook aim a few feet wider or did he think he was running out Samuels Very Happy

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:20 pm

and now Samuels goes, pulls a short ball, top edges it straight to deep square-leg. Excellent short ball from Broad, WI in a deep hole now...

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Post by gboycottnut Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:21 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Simmons is gone, Cook hits from mid-off! WI in a spot of bother, only really hitters to come now.

Yep, Tino Best West Indies second best hitter of a cricket ball has yet to bat!

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:22 pm

Direct hit from captain Cook, and Simmons is gone. Really a wasted innings, the only thing he managed was to keep an end safe for 20 overs. Had it not been for Gayle, WI would have found themselves nowhere after 20 overs.
After Gayle got out, the WI innings is going into a usual tailspin.

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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:22 pm

msp83 wrote:The only thing I am not unhappy about that decision though is that it was Graeme Swann who got him. Don't think he was out there, there was a thick edge on that, and by no means was it clear that it was pad first. Poor call from the umpire that. How long will the West Indies continue to fight now?

It could well have been a brilliant decision. Just about pad first. I can't say that conclusively, but from 22 yards the umpire may well have been able to. And in any case he should make the decision on how he sees it - benefit of the doubt isn't in the laws and, with the brilliance of the current umpires, needn't be.


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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:23 pm

gboycottnut wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:Simmons is gone, Cook hits from mid-off! WI in a spot of bother, only really hitters to come now.

Yep, Tino Best West Indies second best hitter of a cricket ball has yet to bat!

Lets not get carried away on the basis of one knock. Yes, he isn't a rabbit. But, up until last Saturday 'mind the windows' was the only memory most had of him batting. And he is certainly no better batsman than Rampaul, and consequently the 10th best batsman in this team.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:26 pm

Well, its all coming apart for the West Indies.
I am sure some cricket pundits would be waiting to blame Chris Gayle for this!!.
Will Kieran Pollard be able to make any impact?

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:27 pm

Think Swann should be brought back soon, Pollard's not the best of starters against spin.

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Post by Mike Selig Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm

West Indies messing this up, the pitch looks a belter no?

Simmonds I like, but that was a poor poor innings.

Re Gayle - they did show the Hawk-eye, and it was hitting middle and leg 4 inches from the top, having hit him in line with middle-and-off. I thought it just brushed the pad before Gayle jammed it into the pad, but wouldn't state that very confidently. Correct decision to stay with the umpire's call, I think had it been given not out originally that would have stood as well.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm

I like the way England are still on the attack here, slip in and just three men on the fence (two on the hook and a third man).

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Post by Mike Selig Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:38 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I like the way England are still on the attack here, slip in and just three men on the fence (two on the hook and a third man).

Yes and in return WI are being too passive, not looking enough for the singles or trying to put the bowlers off their line, essentially just patting balls back from the crease.

Yes they need to rebuild but you can't just get stuck. It seems the West Indies in general hit boundaries or nothing. I would be very interested in how many singles they've been...

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Post by Hibbz Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:40 pm

Mike Selig wrote:West Indies messing this up, the pitch looks a belter no?

Simmonds I like, but that was a poor poor innings.

Re Gayle - they did show the Hawk-eye, and it was hitting middle and leg 4 inches from the top, having hit him in line with middle-and-off. I thought it just brushed the pad before Gayle jammed it into the pad, but wouldn't state that very confidently. Correct decision to stay with the umpire's call, I think had it been given not out originally that would have stood as well.

Thanks Mike, I thought they probably had but wondered if I'd hit upon another note of controversy!

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:41 pm

slip out now for Anderson, deep point in. agreed Mike, WI way way too passive throughout the innings (Gayle aside, obv.) this looks a great wicket to bat on to me.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:46 pm

here's Swann. Five back on the boundary, but WI only manage two singles, one of them a fortunate bounce over Anderson's outstretched hand at cover.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:49 pm

Pollard starting to show some intent there, though I'm not sure the boundary went quite where he wanted. Battle with Swann could be interesting...

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Post by Mike Selig Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:51 pm

Better from Pollard, shuffling around a bit and muscles Anderson for 4; more shuffling and Anderson changes his line and length a bit.

Bravo joins in with a nice chip for 4. Still not enough singles...

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:51 pm

100 up for the WI, but it's taken them 29 overs to get there. I'd have thought 250 an absolute minimum on this pitch?

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:56 pm

better from the WI in these last three overs, more intent. Daft overthrow there given away. Oooo nearly a fantastic catch by Morgan!

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Post by alfie Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:57 pm

Suppose Pollard could go nuts and rattle up a quick seventy , but really it is hard to see West Indies getting much over 220 from here unless England lose their concentration badly.

Won't be near enough on this.

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Post by Shelsey93 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:59 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:100 up for the WI, but it's taken them 29 overs to get there. I'd have thought 250 an absolute minimum on this pitch?

Yes. Although these days, with batting powerplays and the way batsmen have learned to hit in T20, it is best to set some sort of platform. They will hope to be about 130 at the start of the 36th and then double that in the last 15. To do that they can't lose more wickets.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 1:08 pm

Ravi Bopara on now, Bresnan hasn't had the greatest of days so far, so well worth the try.

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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 1:09 pm

Batting powerplay going to be very important, West Indies should get at least 45 without losing any more wicket.

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