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England vs West Indies Second ODI Debate

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DouglasJardinesbox
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Post by msp83 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:41 am

First topic message reminder :

The backdrop to the 2nd ODI between England and the West Indies is a rather sad one, with the tragic death of Tom Maynard.
But the cricket nevertheless has to go ahead. For England, the massive win in the first ODI, with every part of their game working in decent order would give them extra confidence. Ian Bell has started his new innings as ODI opener in some style, now the greater challenge is to keep it going consistently. It is unlikely England would make any change in the team that won the first match, but the possibility of some spin might bring some thoughts about Samit Patel.
As far as the WI goes, they were kind of being built up as the favorits in some sections of the press, but at that point itself I had my doubts, although they have a far better side to challenge the English in this format unlike the case was during the test series.
The West Indies are forced to make at least one change, as the injured Darren Bravo is out of the series and has gone back home. The big question is whether Chris Gayle is fit to come into the side. If he is fit, then he would walk in for Bravo and either Simmons or Dwayne Smith, who had decent success in the first match opening, would bat down the order.
There is a questionmark over Andre Russell's fitness as well. If he is not a hundred %, then Tino Best might get a game.
cricinfo reports that the weather is good for the match, and that the pitch had taken a bit of turn during the domestic season.

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Post by msp83 Wed 20 Jun 2012, 7:27 pm

If Barath doesn't click, Simmons can come back to opening which he did with some consistent success last year, and the younger Bravo, who has recently found the going tough could come back, as he does have obvious tallent. Then he could be slotted in at 3.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 20 Jun 2012, 10:35 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:No, I agree. However, his keeping in the main has been pretty solid, with some good catches.

Those that go under the bat are never easy, according to every keeper I know, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one, though as you say it needs to be a real rarity.

For what it's worth, I second this (as a keeper myself). When the ball passes under the stumps you lose sight of it for a key split second and have very little time to react to the bounce (which you don't actually see). I was surprised at the reaction in the commentary when it happened ("as easy as they come" for instance, NO it wasn't!!!). Having said that, it was a chance that should have been taken.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 20 Jun 2012, 10:37 pm

msp83 wrote:If Barath doesn't click, Simmons can come back to opening which he did with some consistent success last year, and the younger Bravo, who has recently found the going tough could come back, as he does have obvious tallent. Then he could be slotted in at 3.

I always thought England would be quite a steep learning curve for young Bravo: yes he's had a good (even very good) start to his career, but it's mostly been on the flatter pitches of home. A flashy player like him coming to England for the first time was always going to struggle IMO. I expected more of Edwards really, but he got badly found out.

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Post by Shelsey93 Wed 20 Jun 2012, 10:48 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
msp83 wrote:If Barath doesn't click, Simmons can come back to opening which he did with some consistent success last year, and the younger Bravo, who has recently found the going tough could come back, as he does have obvious tallent. Then he could be slotted in at 3.

I always thought England would be quite a steep learning curve for young Bravo: yes he's had a good (even very good) start to his career, but it's mostly been on the flatter pitches of home. A flashy player like him coming to England for the first time was always going to struggle IMO. I expected more of Edwards really, but he got badly found out.

Edwards in England could have gone either way. I think I said in my series preview that he could unsettle Anderson and Broad with his unorthodox technique. As it happened his technique was shown to be badly flawed, and he looked dreadful.

However, these things happen and Edwards has had past success over here - look at this scorecard from the 2010 A team tri-series at Wantage Road, in a match played against a very strong England Lions outfit featuring Cook, Trott, Bell, Bopara, Shahzad, Woakes and Tredwell http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/shared/fds/hi/statistics/cricket/scorecards/2010/6/85660/html/scorecard.stm. And he has scored 2 Test 100s, so has demonstrated the capacity to score runs at the highest level.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 20 Jun 2012, 11:57 pm

you didn't mention he was also facing Saj Mahmood (who judging by the scorecard probably gave him most of his runs) Very Happy


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Post by liverbnz Thu 21 Jun 2012, 8:11 am

Broad, Bresnan and Swann have been rested for the 3rd and last ODi. Meaker and Tredwell have be called up, while Woakes is retained after been called up for the 2nd ODi as a replacement for Jade Dernbach as he was on compasionate leave. Dernbach is now also available.

Personally I think it'll be Patel, Dernbach and Woakes who come into the team although I'd like to see more of Meaker. Not sure of the point of James Tredwell. He's not likely to play at the next WC so there must be some young spinners out there worth a look at?

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu 21 Jun 2012, 8:54 am

liverbnz wrote:Broad, Bresnan and Swann have been rested for the 3rd and last ODi. Meaker and Tredwell have be called up, while Woakes is retained after been called up for the 2nd ODi as a replacement for Jade Dernbach as he was on compasionate leave. Dernbach is now also available.

Personally I think it'll be Patel, Dernbach and Woakes who come into the team although I'd like to see more of Meaker. Not sure of the point of James Tredwell. He's not likely to play at the next WC so there must be some young spinners out there worth a look at?

I actually think Meaker might edge it over Woakes. Remember that Meaker wouldn't have been available for the 2nd ODI as he too would have been on compassionate leave.

I expect Dernbach and Patel to definitely play. I personally don't believe in the principle of fixing your one-day plans entirely around the World Cup. The best way to create one-day form is to keep winning, and the best way to do that is to pick the best side in the present conditions that you are faced with. Then everything should sort itself out come the World Cup. In addition Tredwell is only just 30 (I know he looks older!), so for an off-spinner will have no problem in playing on for another 6 years at least.

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Post by Fists of Fury Thu 21 Jun 2012, 9:04 am

I hope Woakes plays. Certainly a cannier bowler than Meaker, and a valuable asset with the bat, too. Deserves another go after his impressive returns out in Australia (Brisbane in particular, 6-45 was it?).

Having said that, Meaker is playing well, so perhaps they could play him ahead of Dernbach.

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu 21 Jun 2012, 9:19 am

Fists of Fury wrote:I hope Woakes plays. Certainly a cannier bowler than Meaker, and a valuable asset with the bat, too. Deserves another go after his impressive returns out in Australia (Brisbane in particular, 6-45 was it?).

Having said that, Meaker is playing well, so perhaps they could play him ahead of Dernbach.

I think Dernbach will have to come in first as he was in the original squad. I agree that Woakes deserves another go, but Meaker played for England more recently and has been in very good form all season. Woakes is just coming back and re-discovering his form. In any case it will be a very close call.

There is another permutation. If Tredwell is preferred to Patel (can be justified on the grounds that Tredwell is more of a like-for-like for Swann), then Woakes will need to play to fill the number seven position, and Meaker will probably miss out.


Last edited by Shelsey93 on Thu 21 Jun 2012, 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by liverbnz Thu 21 Jun 2012, 9:20 am

I didn't know Tredwell was that young (I say as a 28 year old!) but I'm wary of England's lead up to their last 3 World Cup campaigns have been riddled with indecision and late changes and hence we've been caught out due to it.

I wasn't expecting England to pick a young spinner at the expense of winning the game, just that there would be more thought on the future with their selections. But with Tredwell being 30, my point is a little moot now!

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Post by Mike Selig Thu 21 Jun 2012, 10:11 am

I'm not sure I rate Tredwell that highly, but he'll do a job if called upon. However I think it's far more likely England go for Patel at 7, and 4 seamers, knowing that you also have Bopara to take pace off the ball if needed.

I have commented before that I am not convinced the Woakes I have seen so far has what it takes to be an international bowler, until he bulks up a bit with his action. I realise that Mohammed Asif and McGrath bowled low 80s similarly, but it is more a matter of style than pace: Woakes to me is "floaty" whereas the above mentioned two hit the pitch hard; a more suitable comparison would be Martin Bicknell, who I also never thought an international bowler. Perhaps I will happily be proved wrong.

That being the case I'd like another look at Meaker, who looks the real deal to me. I think he could play a Shaun Tait role in ODIs as well, as a strike bowler. On a poor day he'll still get you 2-70, on a good day it could be 4-50. I would be quite interested to see what he can do again.

Dernbach did well in the UAE and deserves his place as "first reserve" at the moment.

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Post by Fists of Fury Thu 21 Jun 2012, 10:15 am

Woakes has been bowling quickly enough this season, Mike. Faster than Bresnan, who is consistently bowling around 79-80mph of late.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Thu 21 Jun 2012, 10:22 am

surprised and a bit disappointed England haven't called up Briggs rather than Tredwell. I think Tredwell will be solid but unspectacular but like Mike expect England to go with Patel and four seamers (Anderson, Dernbach, Finn and I suspect they'll go with Woakes as otherwise that tail looks incredibly long). England may of course spring a surprise by picking both spinners but I think that's unlikely.

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Post by Fists of Fury Thu 21 Jun 2012, 10:23 am

I'd have liked to have seen Briggs or Borthwick too, MFC.

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu 21 Jun 2012, 11:16 am

Fists of Fury wrote:Woakes has been bowling quickly enough this season, Mike. Faster than Bresnan, who is consistently bowling around 79-80mph of late.

I think we sometimes get a bit worked up about pace. We assume that all international bowlers always bowl 85+, but that isn't quite true. Against West Indies even Broad was around the 80-83 mark, as was Anderson. Having said that I perhaps share Mike's doubts about Woakes, although I haven't actually seen that much of him on top form.

I personally believe Briggs is heading towards becoming a T20 specialist. Whenever I see him bowl in Championship or 40 over cricket on TV he is pretty expensive, and he hasn't played in most of the 4 day matches this season. But in T20 he has been one of, if not the, best spinner in the country in the last two years. Perhaps that is because he doesn't really turn the ball, and so its subtle variation of pace, and the batsmen going after him that get his wickets. In the longer forms of the game the batsmen can wait for the ball.

Borthwick was very impressive in the T20 last night, and England have certainly identified something (apparently going back to him troubling Jonathan Trott in the nets a couple of years ago). But, like Briggs, he doesn't play for Durham in every game, and last night was one of his first major contributions this season. My personal view is that, as a leg-spinner, he could take 4-5 more years to get things consistently right, and that if he is exposed too much at international level he could find himself having to live up to the 'wonderkid' tag like Adil Rashid has struggled to. Having said that he certainly has something that could be a useful asset to England's one-day teams in future.

liverbnz wrote:I'm wary of England's lead up to their last 3 World Cup campaigns have been riddled with indecision and late changes and hence we've been caught out due to it.

But that was mostly because England didn't get things right before then, and so had to change at the last moment. Essentially they got to the World Cup and had late changes of heart when they recognised that the side they had wasn't going to do well.

If they start playing to win in the present, and establish themselves as one of the leading ODI nations in the process, that won't be an issue come 2015. The make-up of the side will largely sort itself out, as the Test side has done.

The notion of planning for 2015 now is often associated with flawed suggestion that 'we need bowlers that hit the deck because its in Australia', 'we need young players who will be world class by then' etc. In reality this is how you end up in the mess we had in 2011 - Rashid, whose inclusion had been planned with the World Cup in mind, wasn't in form, and we didn't score enough runs at the top of the order.

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Post by Mike Selig Thu 21 Jun 2012, 11:20 am

Fists of Fury wrote:Woakes has been bowling quickly enough this season, Mike. Faster than Bresnan, who is consistently bowling around 79-80mph of late.

Bresnan is bowling a bit within himself in the ODIs I feel, but he hits the pitch hard. As I say it is less about pace than style. Woakes needs for me to hit the pitch harder.

In any case, happy to see him given another shot to see what he can do.

I like Borthwick, always have since I saw him bowl in a T20 against Lancashire about 3 years or so ago (IIRC he got 2 or 3 for 17ish off 3 overs - bowled the last over and got Kyle Hogg caught in the deep to a complete long-hop; Lancashire made 170ish and Albie Morkel smashed Durham to victory at the end). Think he's got something a bit special, so clearly do England.

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Post by liverbnz Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:07 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:
liverbnz wrote:I'm wary of England's lead up to their last 3 World Cup campaigns have been riddled with indecision and late changes and hence we've been caught out due to it.

But that was mostly because England didn't get things right before then, and so had to change at the last moment. Essentially they got to the World Cup and had late changes of heart when they recognised that the side they had wasn't going to do well.

If they start playing to win in the present, and establish themselves as one of the leading ODI nations in the process, that won't be an issue come 2015. The make-up of the side will largely sort itself out, as the Test side has done.

The notion of planning for 2015 now is often associated with flawed suggestion that 'we need bowlers that hit the deck because its in Australia', 'we need young players who will be world class by then' etc. In reality this is how you end up in the mess we had in 2011 - Rashid, whose inclusion had been planned with the World Cup in mind, wasn't in form, and we didn't score enough runs at the top of the order.

If England were depending on Rashid for their number 7 at the World Cup then that was deeply flawed planning as he has never had a record worth talking about in the shorter format. But that doesn't explain the keeper situation or the shuffling around of openers.

All I was advocating here is that England have a look at another spinner to open up their options. What if Tredwell and Patel are dreadfully out of form come the World Cup, or possibly even found out at this level? England should really have options to avoid the risk of another Prior/Davies situation where they were never really sure who should be in the team and their reasoning behind selecting Prior was dubious to say the least.

There is no need to plan for Briggs/Borthwick/whoever to become World Class (although I'm not sure who is satying this) because we already have Graeme Swann and 2 back-ups, but the extra option wouldn't do any harm. If it's too early for any of them, then that's fine, I was just wondering if there were others spinners about that should be looked at.

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:19 pm



The openers situation was a case of getting to just before the World Cup and saying:

Will Davies win us a World Cup? Probably not
Wouldn't KP at the top of the order be a good idea
Why isn't Prior in the side? He's just had an incredible Ashes tour

As it happens I think they got things wrong for a while with the openers. The point is that they should have recognised that KP opening was a good idea earlier, because it was best for the one-day team, rather than best for winning the World CUp.


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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:11 pm

Woakes over Bresnan for me, Andrew/Fists. thumbsup

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Post by Guest Thu 21 Jun 2012, 3:58 pm

weather forecast for final odi is dreadful Sad

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 21 Jun 2012, 6:32 pm

love to see woakes play

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