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DERBY CUPS.

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Post by Kingshu Wed 04 Jul 2012, 2:51 pm

Its a slow day so I thought I'd re-air one one of my old suggestions and see if thoughts had changed on it.
My idea was;
Get rid of the LV cup, instead replace it with smaller domestic comps.

Ireland
4 provinces random draw to play a double headed in NLR (at start of season instead of the last friendly game), 2 winners play for the Inter-Pro cup later in season.

Wales
Same thing but in Mill Stad

Scotland/Italy
Random draw to see who gets home advantage, 2 Winners play final, year about between Italy and Scotland as hosts, (unless is an all Scottish/all Italian final then moved to that country)

England
Championship and Prem teams put together in groups of 4 depending on location (derby games). straight knock out like
in prevous examples, if need be winners of two close by Derby cups can play each other as well.

Over all would add 1 game to a season for Irish/Scottish/Italian teams, and generate local intrest just before the league kicks off, generate some publicty, and should generate a little extra income, and give fans local bragging rights.

Wales/England
Less games in a season with no LV cup maybe generate less income? - England could maybe have a mini local league instead of knock-out to get more games for younger players?

Thoughts?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 04 Jul 2012, 2:59 pm

Kingshu - personally I quite like the LV=, it gives the fringe/young players a good chance to prove their wares. For the Scarlets Ben Morgan, Keiran Murphy, Andy Fenby and Scott Williams all proved their worth in the LV= and then made the step up to the Rabo. Also it give your youngsters/fringe players the experience of really sticking it to the Jeff sides, which is good for their confidence then when they meet them in the HEC later on in their careers.
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Post by Kingshu Wed 04 Jul 2012, 3:02 pm

We have the BandI cup for player development, Welsh teams could consider entering 'A' sides in that ,rather than virtual 'A' sides in LV= cup?

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Post by thebluesmancometh Wed 04 Jul 2012, 3:07 pm

Ye I'm with you Scarlet, from what Ive seen all 4 welsh regions play each other at U16's, U17's and U18's level. They play the same players over and over, the chance for fringe/young players to test themselves out against the best of europe is far more attractive than playing their mates from down the road for about the 20th time!

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 04 Jul 2012, 3:11 pm

Kingshu - the regions just don't have the numbers or money to do B&I, International (including age grade) & Dreby Cup.
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Post by Brendan Wed 04 Jul 2012, 3:15 pm

I think the derby games is a go idea but I would like it to be fought for. The Lv is just a sad excuse for money unless you are english and get a HC place out of it but hasn't happened much.

For Ireland I would like to see the 4 provinces plus the u20s in it with the two teams with the worse league record against the other teams in the previous league play a one off game.

Would also help the u20s playing against better teams and let them play against club team mates

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Post by Kingshu Wed 04 Jul 2012, 3:17 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ye I'm with you Scarlet, from what Ive seen all 4 welsh regions play each other at U16's, U17's and U18's level. They play the same players over and over, the chance for fringe/young players to test themselves out against the best of europe is far more attractive than playing their mates from down the road for about the 20th time!

Who's talking about playing kids in the double header? It would be a first team full blown derby, just the sort of games teams need to get them up to speed for the start of the season, I expect that the XV starting would be the same XV that would play the first competative league game of the year.

SS of course the regions can afford the BandI cup, if welsh prem teams can afford it, a region can enter an 'A' side cheaper than entering 2/3 prem teams (with 2/3 times less travel costs involved as well)

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 04 Jul 2012, 3:24 pm

Kingshu - the regions could only manage to feild sides in the B&I if you were to remove the Welsh Prem sides from it, otherwise we would not enough players available. As it stands during the international windows the regional players are involved in

Welsh Team (or other international)
Age Grade International
Regional Side (LV=)
Welsh Prem Side (B&I)

The way i have read your proposal is to enter a regional A Side into the B&I along side the Welsh Prem sides, and also to feild a 'full strength' side against the other regions too. That is an extra side that needs to be made from somewhere. In is not feasable.

Bluesman - I think for developement the LV= (and the B&I) are cracking competitions, and also seeing as they are 'worthless' they also mean that players tend to throw caution to the wind a bit more and really show their attcking skills. Which leads to entertaining rugby to watch (even when its your side taking a tonking)
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Post by Kingshu Wed 04 Jul 2012, 3:30 pm

sorry SS I maybe wasn't clear replace the Welsh prem sides with Regional 'A' sides, same reason the regions were set up for in the first place, concentrate the best young players together to play, train and coach at a higher level.

Rather than the best young players being spread among several semi-pro clubs.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 04 Jul 2012, 3:34 pm

Kingshu wrote:sorry SS I maybe wasn't clear replace the Welsh prem sides with Regional 'A' sides, same reason the regions were set up for in the first place, concentrate the best young players together to play, train and coach at a higher level.

Rather than the best young players being spread among several semi-pro clubs.

Ah I got you. In that case maybe there would be a case for doing that. However, being selfish, at the moment we are playing the top flight english clubs (who have a number of big-ish names available) as opposed to the lower level english sides. So the regions are getting better competition. Maybe inclusion of the Provincial A sides into the LV= would make more sense.
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Post by Kingshu Wed 04 Jul 2012, 3:54 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Kingshu wrote:sorry SS I maybe wasn't clear replace the Welsh prem sides with Regional 'A' sides, same reason the regions were set up for in the first place, concentrate the best young players together to play, train and coach at a higher level.

Rather than the best young players being spread among several semi-pro clubs.

Ah I got you. In that case maybe there would be a case for doing that. However, being selfish, at the moment we are playing the top flight english clubs (who have a number of big-ish names available) as opposed to the lower level english sides. So the regions are getting better competition. Maybe inclusion of the Provincial A sides into the LV= would make more sense.

From a Welsh point of view maybe don't even drop the LV= cup (after all you get to blood new players in it and they also get to play in the BandI cup for their clubs).

But why not add the double header in Mill stad (say Blues v Dragons followed by Scarlets v Ospreys), replace the last friendly game of the season for each club with the double header, and have the winners play later in the season (only adds one more game to the fixture list) and what better way to prepare for the start of the season, than a full blooded Derby, a place in the final and silverware up for grabs. Money generated by a cheap tickets for a double header for each region should be about the same as a friendly maybe more, and it really promotes that the League season is about to kick off, which should see better attendances for the first few games than maybe otherwise.

Pro 12 sides adopt it and English keep the LV= cup just as it is.

Our version of the London double header but it isn't a League game and no one loses home advantage!

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