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Post by Doc on Mon 11 Apr 2011, 5:31 pm

In light of the Rory thing, I was wondering if his caddy could have helped, and accept that the relationship between player and caddy is a personal chemistry thing. But it seemed to me as if Rory was left helpless and needed something or someone to get him thinking straight again. It could well be that his caddy was doing what he had always done, and kept quiet? Maybe Chubby and his team need to review Rory's caddy situation and where he goes next for some help to speed him through this crisis, as it could well be a career killer if not dealt with now. Give him to Butch for a month?

Taking this one stage further I was wondering if there are any ex pro's who go on to caddy, as its like a waste of experience. Just like football referee standards would be improved by having ex players involved. But guess by the time they finish playing football, they don't need to work for 'peanuts' in relative terms. But listening to some of the punditry, even from Monty gave you a different slant on things, and thought now if he was on Rory's bag ... I suppose there will be some ex pro's on the bag now, but pro's who didn't actually make it onto the main tour?



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Post by NedB-H on Mon 11 Apr 2011, 5:48 pm

I noticed this too. There was one hole in particular which stood out - might've been the 13th - where McIlroy hit a poor drive, and we got a camera angle from 30yds down the fairway, showing the caddy striding after the ball in the foreground while Rory stood looking bewildered in the background. I guess we don't know from watching on TV how much or how little help the caddy was, but it's certainly a point to consider. We hear a lot about how golf is a sport where it's just one guy against the course and against himself, but actually it's two guys. The caddy shouldn't just be giving yardages, he should be trying everything to keep his player calm and in control. In fact the mental side of caddying is probably more important than the technical side. Any player could train himself to work out yardages, wind speeds and putt reads if he put his mind to it. But having someone to give you advice, and share the situation with you, when you're in danger of falling apart, is invaluable.

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Post by golfermartin on Mon 11 Apr 2011, 8:48 pm

When he started his "unravelling", that is what occurred to me. It was then that the caddy should really be earning his money. Coaxing his man back to the straight and narrow. I think it was Lee Westwood that credited his caddy for managing the mental side of things so well. That said, however, at the end of the day, the caddy can't hit the shots! I really felt for Rory - been there and it's bad enough in a club 'major' let alone a real 'Major'

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Post by Adam D on Mon 11 Apr 2011, 10:20 pm

Surely the worst caddie ever was Woosnams who posted the wrong score and put too many clubs in his bag from memory!

Another person who could have done with a word from his caddie was Jean Van Der Velt at Carnoustie!

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Post by drive4show on Mon 11 Apr 2011, 11:00 pm

Caddy's mean different things to different players. Some players like someone to bounce ideas off and get 2nd opinions. Others just want a yardage as a 2nd opinion can put doubts in the players mind.

Who knows what Rory wants from his caddy but it certainly looked to me last night that he needed a fatherly figure to have a reassuring word and get him thinking straight again.

Regarding the comment about spending time with Butch, I don't think that is the answer. Rory has only 2 weaknesses, his short putting and his lack of experience. The former he can work on, the latter will be resolved the more he gets himself into contention.

Here's to a speedy 'recovery' Rory. Last night was car crash TV but you'll bounce back stronger and wiser thumbsup

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Post by Guest on Mon 11 Apr 2011, 11:50 pm

Agreed, my thoughts too. He is only twenty one and I was a little surprised that he was able to maintain and slightly improve his lead over the first three days - so he was obviously in form. He needed someone to give him a bit of perspective. However he has never been in such a position and it's very difficult to know how one will be able to handle the situation - so this is important experience for him. He seemed a little off right at the beginning of the final round - perhaps he didn't get much sleep before the final days play?

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Post by NedB-H on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 1:11 am

Hobo wrote:Surely the worst caddie ever was Woosnams who posted the wrong score and put too many clubs in his bag from memory!
Didn't Woosnam stand by him after the wrong club fiasco, then sack him anyway a few weeks later cos he got drunk and didn't turn up for the tee time? Doh

As for the stuff about Butch, not sure that's right... he's mainly a swing coach, and McIlroy's swing is perfect. What he needs is a mental coach, someone like Jos Vanstiphout or Oosthuizen's red dot guy.

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Post by Doc on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 7:51 am

D4S/Ned, with regard to Butch it wasn't to try and change his swing, it was more for his short game and especially for his fatherly advice, observations, course management etc. After all Butch has the likes of Watney who has a fantastic swing and a great touch, he also has Phil for his short game, but how can Butch teach Phil anything about the short game .... Phil obviously gets something out of having Butch around, even if its just to be bollocked from time to time.

For all we know Rory may want his caddy to say and do nothing, which is fair enough, but just maybe its time for a change. Yes he's probably had this caddy since he came onto the scene, but caddy's need to be good enough to step up into the big league with the player, and I accept I may be doing this caddy a diservice but I suspect its now time for a change.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 8:11 am

We have no idea what McIlroy's caddy did or didn't say. He was certainly talking to him plenty on 10 when amongst the houses.

It's naive to think nothing was being said when all we have to go on is a few brief camera shots. It's nothing to do with his caddy and to simply change him now is a) a disservice and b) off-loading the responsibility for what happened onto someone else when what needs to happen is some serious self-reflection.
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Post by sharrison01 on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 8:50 am

Am not really sure that Butch would do that much for Rory as he is predominantly a swing coach. Players like Mickelson see Butch for maintaining his swing but Mickelson also works with Dave Pelz for his short game - he doesn't let Butch touch this. Rory needs a team like Harrington's when he won his majors - Bob torrance and Bob Rotella, a proper old school coach with a psychologist.

Butch would only serve to raise Rory's profile which is about the last thing that he needs right now - he's the sort of coach that constantly goes on about his pupils for self promotion. Someone like Bob Torrance would be better because he would not be impressed by Rory the superstar but would instead work on Rory the golfer.

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Post by Doc on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 9:18 am

good point sharrison, but I think he really needs something. He has all the talent in the world and has only 2 wins to his name, so closing out is obviously a problem. Chubby's team seem to be switched on and have some of the best players on his books, and all of them at some stage have needed a change. Lee, Ernie whos still having putting issues, Darren needed help after the death of his wife, as he still had to earn a living at the same time as looking after his kids etc. I suspect that Chubby will need to sit down with Rory and put a plan together for his future.

His caddy is JP Fitzgerald who had had the bags of Paul McGinley, Darren Clarke and Ernie, so obviously well into the Chubby stable. But Charl is also a Chubby player and I think Louis oost is as well?

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Post by McLaren on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 11:30 am

I, nor anyone else knows how well Rory's caddie performed but it is clear that he may lack some sort of guidance in his professional life. Could it be a case of getting to the top too easily?

He is clearly what you would call a "cocky wee Poopie" and getting taken down a peg or two may do him a lot of good. He has the look of a guy who is capable of the odd tantrum, having his ego fuelled by the likes of Westwood cannot help. I am sure he has learned his lesson.
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Post by Doc on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 12:13 pm

McLaren wrote:I, nor anyone else knows how well Rory's caddie performed but it is clear that he may lack some sort of guidance in his professional life. Could it be a case of getting to the top too easily?

He is clearly what you would call a "cocky wee Poopie" and getting taken down a peg or two may do him a lot of good. He has the look of a guy who is capable of the odd tantrum, having his ego fuelled by the likes of Westwood cannot help. I am sure he has learned his lesson.

Mac I read something earlier about his dramatic rise to stardom, but not suggesting this is the cause of his problem. His father was a scratch player and his mate was the club pro at Hollywood. Rory had a club in his hands from 2-years old and the club pro saw something special etc, etc, etc. Obviously a lot of hours spent with the pro, and as a 10-year old apparently he was wheeled out at club events and the like as a bit of a freak. The club and county players would see him playing against members etc and he was by all accounts brilliant. Darren Clarke had heard about him and went to see for himself and this is where the story takes off. Darren flew him over to England and spent time with him at his own club, and Rory's father was to be his caddy. This is where the N.Irish connection kicks in, because obviously McGinley and Clarke were big on tour at the time. Rory was obviously treated as a bit of a superstar from a very early age and by the time he was old enough to drive he had a BMW 1 series, which isn't bad for a kid. So JPF was also handed to him by Darren and also Harrington was on the scene with him as well by this time, but it does look like he's had it quite easy compared to most pro's. No living out of a van for Rory, it looks like he's been in first class from well before day 1.

So maybe he does need some outside input because he will not reach his potential as it stands. I'm sure Rory's team or Chubby's team appreciate this, so I would hope somethings going to happen. Status quo, I suspect will not work for Rory so believe somethings got to give. Lets just hope that this crash was a good long term experience and be the kick in the bum he needs.

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Post by Maverick on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 12:41 pm

The thing I find with Rory is he seems to be surrounded by the wrong people. I know chubby chandler has a fair number of good players in his stable but many are not Top players really with only a couple of exceptions and his caddy seemed to want to leave Rory to his own devices a lot of Sunday but this maybe how Rory likes it.

From a management perspective I'd have him work with a Dave Peltz type character who specialise in the short game side of things and get him working tirelessy on it. I've said before I've seen rory at events on the range hitting ball after ball with purpose but on the practice green uninterested and just going through the motions like he doesn't enjoy it or want to be there. This is what his management team should be addressing not encouraging the purchases of Bugattis to fill his time. He's young he can buy what he wants I know. But they'll feel like empty purchases if he suffers another collapse due to his short game failures.

Also look at getting him a caddy who's been there and done it on the big stage look how good foster has been for westy, or how good Greg Normans old caddy was this week for the aussie he carried for. Someone like that will know how to take the pressure off Rory and help him along the way

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Post by McLaren on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 12:52 pm

Would it be unfair to say that he does not seem willing to move outside his comfort zone? It is like he has settled for the sort atmosphere he would have been used to on a sunday afternoon in his local club. Old boys patting him on the back and telling him he has the perfect game.

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Post by sharrison01 on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 1:10 pm

Another point for someone that hits the ball as well as Rory is that most of his confidence will come from ripping irons and woods on the range so that is what he enjoys to do most. A solid short game from hours around the putting/chipping green and the love of getting the ball in the hole. When you listen to and watch Mickelson you can tell that he genuine loves the challenge of getting up and down and would probably find hours on the range a complete bore.

Unfortunately it is similar to most driving ranges around the world - they are littered with people hitting their favourite clubs while short game areas are either non-existant or empty...

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Post by Doc on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 1:36 pm

Mac/Mav good call both. I got the feeling before Xmas that the Chubby stable had made some changes to Rory's schedule this year. He cancelled his PGA card and opted to dedicate his time on the ET etc. So it did look like a different ethos was going to happen, and that meant spending less time with G Mac. This seemed to have worked as he played his normal 2/3 rounds of blistering golf early in the year especially at the desert swing events he took part in. Team Chubby like to do their own thing ie Lee will do a couple over here, the desert and far East before heading off to Augusta. But Rory has got to be able to rely on someone he trusts. His father cannot be there all the time, he's split up from his very long term girlfriend and hes had JPF on his bag for years. Even Lee goes to Mark Roe from time to time as well as Pete Cowan. Dave Peltz is a great call as was the earlier suggestion of Bob T (I'm sure Sam would set it up as he likes to taste Rory on his tongue)

None of us are in the know of course, but from outside looking in we saw a young kid who wasn't equipped to live up to his superstar stature. We saw his caddy standing back and not seeming to help, we saw how pleased Chubby was when he ambushed Charl on the way to the scorers hut, but didn't see Chubby when Rory walked off. Chubby should have rushed onto the 18th green and swamped him, but he was nowhere to be seen (On camera anyway) We all know he's a country mile better than the players on show on Sunday, but he now has 3 stablemates who are major winners, and will always be known throughout golf history, whereas Rory is in danger of being just another kid with talent that fell through the cracks, unless he gets sorted

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Post by LadyPutt on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 3:07 pm

How many times has it to be said - Rory does not have a Bugatti! That was an incorrect story, I think in the Belfast Telegraph, which took off. Rory drives a matt black Audi A8 if you must know and has posted a few photos of it on Twitter. Lee Westwood asked him if he was on his mum's insurance and if he had a booster cushion!

As for his caddy, like many others I was waiting on Sunday for him to step in and earn his money (which he could see slipping through his fingers) but nothing seemed to happen - no visible communication. I just wanted to go and give Rory a big hug and tell him not to worry, he isn't the first player to throw a lead in a Major (Greg Norman and Jean van der Velde come to mind and I'm sure there are others) nor will he be the last. I think I'd have done a better job - but I'd have to have used an electric trolley Wink
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Post by Doc on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 3:43 pm

Seems like Chubby is putting it all down to inexperience? a meeting to be held in Malaysia this week.

http://bratchikoviwewu.blogspot.com/2011/04/masters-2011-rory-mcilroy-final-round.html

Chubby's also saying he thinks Rory doesn't play enough. So after the warts and all meeting will we see any changes to Rory's schedule, the management team, the caddy or will everyone concerned just leave Rory to work his way out of it by himself?


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Post by Maverick on Tue 12 Apr 2011, 7:18 pm

I also found it quite poor that we saw chubby and the team basking in the glory but not showing Rory the support when he needed it most.

The Rory bugatti thing maye well be a load of drivel but you only need to see the twitter page he updates regularly to see what he is upto regularly rarely do you see anything about practice or his game but you see a lot about what he's betting on this week and what he's doing socially etc, then there's the interviews he gives at regular tour events he always seems not too bothered with how the rounds gone while their are players out theire that can get away with this attitude the likes of Couples etc I don't think Rory can be put in that bracket he talks about what he wants to achieve from the game but you rarely seem him at tournaments putting that work in.

The closest comparison to Rory is Fowler another youngster who likes to tweet! But difference with Rickie most updates are about being off to or just back from practice! Going for a session with his coach or a practice round somewhere, yes he has the updates about social life but its more about his game also off the course he's regularly seen putting the hours into his game. Even someone like Poulter nowhere near as naturally talented as Rory but he's got himself a good team around him and has self belief he works hard and thru that has made himself in a fantastic putter and solid player.

People say he's only 21 blah blah, but be honest he's not a regular 21 year old he's a tournament professional and should as such think like one and work like one to iron out any flaws. If he wanted the life of a regular young guy he should have done what Donald did, and likes of DJ and some others and gone to Uni or got into the american collegiate system as his good mate Gmac did! This would have allowed for him to iron out the flaws whilst developing and enjoying youthful exuberance so that when he finally turned pro he did it with a better base and understanding of the pro ranks.

Compare those thru the collegiate system to one that didn't for example Sergio always close but not across the line and fading at 30, Donald gets stronger each year due to a good solid grounding, even the likes of Kuchar went through it and has developed well since. Westwood turns pro as a teenager and still seeking to be a major winner and to some prove his worth as former world no1 and may never achieve it. Whereas big Phil went thru the system won a PGA event as an amateur then turned pro, yes it took him a while to achieve a major but he won a hatful of regular events first thanks to knowing the system

I think Rors needs take a step back from the limelight and and those he has surrounded himself with and think what do I want from this game do I want a good career
or a great career. Then answer the question what do I need to do to achieve that and what needs to be improved. Only when are these things answered can he in my opinion become the player everyone's telling him he already is. Only thru hardwork can he achieve greatness he can use this set back as the thing to learn from and propel him to greatness or he can stay as he his going thru the motions listening to others bigging him up and end his career as could have done better or he could say thru sheer hard work and determination I'm the best british/irish golfer their has ever been




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Post by Doc on Wed 13 Apr 2011, 3:55 pm

Just read a piece about JPF who apparently helped Ernie through his earlier putting problems. JP was always used as a second pair of eyes on all Ernies putts, he also did the same for Darren and McGinley - which begs the question why he didn't for Rory. You can only assume that Rory likes to do it himself, which means that if JPF gets the bullet it wouldn't be fair. The same piece likened Rory to a young Sergio, someone who struggled with the short stick and gradually disintegrated in his 30's. Rory was missing putts by inches because he doesn't read the greens properly, but has a solid stroke. The comparison with Woods on Sunday as they both had a similar putt on the same green. Woods saw it straight and rolled it in, whereas Rory saw it 3" left and the ball stayed on that line to miss left by 3".

The closing line was " Does Rory want to be remembered as another Sergio, or a Sevvy"

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Post by JAS on Wed 13 Apr 2011, 5:35 pm

Personal view is that the die was cast by the missed par putt on the first and it snowballed from there. There was a lot of pressure on him and that missed putt cranked it up further, had that putt rolled in we could very easily have sen a VERY different outcome.

His drive into the bunker at the first par 5 is being called an error of judgement by some. I don't see that, not based on the way he had been driving all week. However, after nearly not getting out, then pulling into the left bunker at the same hole a step back and a rethink were required, obviously we dont know what conversation may have taken place but that was where a top top class caddy should have had a word.

By the turn it was clear nerves were influencing performance and the aggressive approach which pays dividends when the confidence is flowing was turning against him. Again another rethink was required, especially after the 8th.

You can look at the drive on 10 several ways. It wasn't a good drive but the extent of the punishment (where it landed) was excessive so he was very unlucky. On the other hand, given the front 9 why didn't he at least try a 3 wood, reduce the risk, stop the gradual bleeding and send a signal to the chasers that he was through his rough patch and stabilised. I think the result of the drive on 10 was his final headspace undoing. What happened from the 10th fairway onwards was cruel and painful to watch.

I think his post round interview showed immense character and maturity. That alone won't win him stuff in the future though. I think he would benefit from a Rotella link up. Over the first 3 days he swung the club beautifully, putts just weren't dropping for him, had they done so he would have been out of site before Sundays round started.

If Chandler is smart, he wont interfere other than arrange the services of Rotella or similar. If he were to persist in his 'not playing enough' nonsense and start pressuring Rory to change his schedule then I see trouble ahead.


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Post by McLaren on Wed 13 Apr 2011, 5:45 pm

JAS

Spot on about Rory's use of the driver, as far as I can see only mistake was not taking 3 wood on ten, which is what a believe tiger used on all four days.
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Post by SmithersJones on Thu 14 Apr 2011, 10:18 am

Don't they normally take 3 wood on ten to make it easier to draw it around the corner? As Rory hits a high draw with his driver anyway, why would he need to hit 3 wood?
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Post by LondonJonnyO on Thu 14 Apr 2011, 10:48 am

10 looks more like a snap hook than a draw to be fair. As does 13.
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