The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

+12
LeinsterFan4life
Feckless Rogue
Notch
asoreleftshoulder
anotherworldofpain
Sin é
pete (buachaill on eirne)
valjester
red_stag
Rory_Gallagher
rodders
Thomond
16 posters

Page 5 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Thomond Mon 30 Jul 2012, 1:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

It has been a long time coming, but my thoughts on our tourn in NZ are here, debate criticize do whatever the heck you want within site rules!


I think Irish fans entered the Summer tour with a sense of cautious optimism. The backbone of the team (Leinster/Ulster) both reached the final of the Heineken Cup with Leinster emerging victorious.
While, this provincial success was quite amazing, we Irish fans knew that at international level, we have often struggled. Many speculate over the reasons, in reality its is somewhere in between having players who aren't good enough and the tactics of Director of Rugby Declan Kidney and his staff. With the All Blacks replacing former coach Graham Henry with Steve Hansen, I think the Irish faithful saw the first test as their best opportunity to finally notch a win.

So the first game came, the Irish forwards put in an outstanding performance, Sean O'Brien, Rory Best and Declan Fitzpatrick were stellar. Ireland were arguably superior at the breakdown and had some dominance in the scrum. The problems lay outside. The Irish backs have struggled throughout Kidney's tenure, their back play is somewhat archaic and while try scoring isn't a huge issue for Ireland their creativity is. Kidney surprisingly picked a relatively inexperienced team, Simon Zebo and Declan Fitzpatrick gaining their first caps, Peter O'Mahony only had one previous cap while Brian O'Driscoll took on a new role at inside centre. Wingers Fergus McFadden and Simon Zebo were exposed, a lack of communication also proved to be a problem. McFadden got drawn in at times but he and Earls didn't communicate effectively resulting in some terrible gaps in defence. New Zealand winger grabbed three tries on his debut which largely culminated from poor Irish defence. A final score of 42-10 in favour of the All Blacks meant a bleak outlook, yet Irish fans knew if their backs could front up in the tackle and offer something going forward the match would be a lot tighter.

So the second test was held in Christchurch. . Ireland gave the All Blacks an almighty shock, with the home side eventually winning out on a scoreline of 22-19. Ireland made 4 changes. The injured Keith Earls was replaced by Gordon D'Arcy. Andrew Trimble was favoured ahead of Simon Zebo, Mike Ross replaced Declan Fitzpatrick and Kevin McLaughlin replaced Peter O'Mahony. While Victor Vito replaced Adam Thomson in the All Blacks line-up. The Irish forwards picked up where they left out showing superiority at the breakdown and also putting in a decent effort come scrum time. The backs also stood up and brought intensity and physicality that was absent in the first test. At times they showed some intricate backplay but mainly they used physical and powerful runners and recycled quickly . The Irish kept the All Blacks in the game by giving away silly and needless penalties, as the shell-shocked Kiwis struggled to create try scoring opportunities. They managed one in the second half but Ireland managed to tie the game at 19-19, and after Israel Dagg's sin binning for an aerial challenge on Rob Kearney, Ireland were awarded a penalty. While it seemed that captain Brian O'Driscoll wanted to go down the line with the resulting penalty, Johnny Sexton opted for the posts and his effort ultimately fell short. After a penalty which caused consternation among some Irish fans, the All Blacks marched down the field with Dan Carter sinking the winning drop goal to break Irish hearts.

The third test is something most Irish fans have blanked from their memory. In the absence of Dan Carter and Kieran Read, the All Blacks turned in a superb performance, Aaron Cruden and Sam Cane deputising brilliantly for the absent duo. The Irish team of the second test failed to turn up , the lacked physicality, slipped off tackles stood off the All Blacks and looked like they wanted to catch the plane home at times. Some mind-boggling selections like playing Paddy Wallace who only arrived in NZ on the Thursday of the game were a bit odd but all round Ireland were awful and this lead to an embarrassing 60-0 loss.



Irish team Analysis


Coaching staff

Declan Kidney - 5/10
While he obviously missed key players like Tommy Bowe, Paul O'Connell and Stephen Ferris, as well as the versatility of Luke Fitzgerald, the performances of the first and final test were poor. Our tactics were awful and we persisted to kick ball to the All Blacks without a good kick chase. While he isn't directly in charge of our backplay you have to feel his ideas have some merit, it's somewhat strange because his Munster played with more panache then the current Ireland backline do. I think that some fans place a bit too much blame on Kidney but he does deserve a fair bit and I think it might be time to get some new ideas into the Irish team and setup. His marks mainly come from the 2nd test performance and the decent play by our forwards in the first 2 games


Gert Smal- 8/10


The Irish forwards coach deserves immense praise for the way the pack played in the first two tests, they were dominant at the breakdown, the scrum was solid with new cap Declan Fitzpatrick and as good with Mike Ross. If Fitzpatrick can work on some of his fitness/health issues, then there is a spot available for him in the Irish setup.


Les Kiss- 4/10
The rating is admittedly harsh and I don't think it's all his fault, more the IRFU who seem to be insisting on Kiss working two jobs. When Kiss was solely our defensive coach, we had a very reliable defensive unit, conceding the least amount of points in the 2011 6 Nations (tied with England) and had the second best defence in 2009. Yet after the departure of Alan Gaffney, Kiss was also asked to take up the role of backs coach, our defence suffered a sharp decline, dropping from tied first to 4th overall. Our backplay hasn't been great either, at times we put some moves together but overall we seem to just go through the middle and hope gaps appear. Similar tactics work for the Welsh, but they have far more big target runners than Ireland have. I think Kiss could still do a very good job as our defence coach but I don't think he has what is takes to be a backs coach.


Players that enhanced their Reputations


Sean O'Brien- It might seem odd that a former ERC European Player of the year could do much more to enhance his reputation but "SOB" did. O'Brien confirmed that he is a superb backrow operator. While I think the Irish aren't in need of the classic "7" so many claim we need, O'Brien was a menace at the breakdown and arguably outshined Richie McCaw over the first two tests. O'Brien showed he has the ability to play all 3 backrow positions effectively at the highest level having seen him play 6 and 8 for his province and country.

Declan Fitzpatrick- While the Ulster man deputised for John Afoa in the Heineken Cup Semi final and played extremely well, I'm sure I wasn't the only Irish fan worried when I heard Mike Ross was definitely out of the first test. Fitzpatrick and his front partners Rory best and Cian Healy marshalled the All Blacks scrum, and enjoyed a bit of dominance at times but parity for the large part. Most of us expected trouble from the New Zealand scrum but credit to Fitzpatrick he was imperious. There's a spot in the Irish setup if he can work on his fitness and injury problems.


Cian Healy - At times, Healy has struggled in the international arena but over the tour he did a very good job on Owen Franks. He was used sparingly by the Irish in terms of ball carrying but we all know what he can do there and he was effective when used.


Donnacha Ryan- In the absence of Paul O'Connell, Ryan was very effective in the lineout while also disrupting at the breakdown and hitting tackles with incredible ferocity. He should partner O'Connell in the Autumn Internationals with Dan Tuohy, who performed solidly on the bench.




(c) Copyright 606v2 2012. Please do not reproduce without permission


Rest can be found here: http://v2journal.com/ireland-rugby--summer-tour-review.html


Thomond

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down


Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by valjester Mon 06 Aug 2012, 11:44 pm

rodders wrote:Fair points Val but as Laurie said above the players competing at 7s would be those who haven't yet made the provincial grade. Clearly provincial rugby would be a priority. I'm not disputing the logistical issues but I don't see why it isn't possible. International 7s would be a better way for some players to develop than the B&I cup I think.

The thing is that all the sevens teams have squads of about 20 players. Every squad will have some older players who play on the sevens circuit year after year and form the core of the group, you can drop in young players and let them develop for a year but honestly I think that the B&I cup is a better training ground for them. There is a difference between sevens and 15s, some players are suited to play sevens and the B&I cup gives them a chance to develop. Also cutting the B&I cup would not free up the necessary funds to compete on the sevens circuit and would limit the gametime of certain players.

valjester

Posts : 1874
Join date : 2011-06-19
Location : here, there and everywhere

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Tue 07 Aug 2012, 9:40 am

Val I'm not saying cut the B&I cup but that the 7s circuit could be used in conjunction with this to develop talented players.

We have loads of young talented backs and backrowers who aren't provincial regulars and aren't developing the way they should because there isn't the opportunities at provincial level to get game time in their preferred positions.

Look at someone like Willie Faloon or JJ Hanaran. Faloon hopefully will get gametime at Connacht but how much will JJ feature next season?

7s is also mostly in the summer so it shouldn't impact the other competitions too much.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by dublin_dave Tue 07 Aug 2012, 6:04 pm

Season long loans to Connacht or somewhere in UK/France would help. At a young age its important that these lads play as much rugby as possible. I mean if Hanrahan is still behind Downey,Laulala etc a year at Wasps or someones like that would do wonder for him. It would be far greater than being a bit part Magners League player

If season long loans are utilized Kidney and his team must actually monitor their progress and pick them if their form deserves it.

dublin_dave

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-07-05

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Feckless Rogue Tue 07 Aug 2012, 6:20 pm

That's where cooperation between London Irish and the IRFU could have been useful. Loan players out to them and the IRFU could help fund their wage. London Irish would get a cheap player which would help them under their salary cap, and in return they'd give the IRFU full access to the player when they need it.

Not sure how the RFU would feel about all this. But I would really like to see young Irish props learning their trade in the AP. Because producing enough props is something our provinces are failing at. And Ross, the only Irish tighthead we can trust to hold up and international scrum, learned much of his trade at Harlequins.
Feckless Rogue
Feckless Rogue

Posts : 3230
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : The Mighty Kingdom Of Leinster

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by dublin_dave Tue 07 Aug 2012, 6:37 pm

spot on re ross feckless.

if it wasnt for leinster brining him back he would have never seen a green jersey and that is wrong.

we have a lot of good players but not so many that we can turn our nose up at players not based in the country.

dublin_dave

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-07-05

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by valjester Wed 08 Aug 2012, 2:44 am

dublin_dave wrote:spot on re ross feckless.

if it wasnt for leinster brining him back he would have never seen a green jersey and that is wrong.

we have a lot of good players but not so many that we can turn our nose up at players not based in the country.

We don't though. If a player is good enough to be picked they will be picked regardless of where they are playing their rugby. Bowe, Easterby and Murphy won plenty of caps while they were playing abroad. If a player is good enough, then they will be picked. Over the years I can't think of one player who was worthy of a cap who was overlooked due to where the played. If it is a 50/50 decision, then the coaches will go with the Irish based player but that will be due to their familiarity with the setup as they will have trained with the squad.

Rodders; The last thing the players need is more rugby, they need an off period and for the young players they need a focused preseason to add the strength needed to play professional rugby. I was saying that with the current player numbers, the B&I would have to be cut for their to be players available for the sevens.

Feckless; It is highly unlikely that the RFU would allow us to do that with London Irish, and besides, the connection is just in name nowadays, they are no more Irish than any of the other english clubs.

valjester

Posts : 1874
Join date : 2011-06-19
Location : here, there and everywhere

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Sin é Wed 08 Aug 2012, 9:56 am

Its also highly unlikely that LI or 'Quins would give much gametime to a rookie Irish player that they know will be gone back home in a year! Emergency experienced cover is what they want - someone like Peter Stringer.

Ross was lucky to get a chance with 'Quins as they were just promoted into the Premiership when he went there. A pity Leinster didn't sus Ross out a bit earlier and even when he moved to Leinster (encouraged to do so by Declan Kidney), Leinster ignored him, preferring a loosehead to play ahead of him until Stan got injured.

As regards the points about picking overseas players - Tomas O'Leary has got it all wrong then by moving to LI as he has stated that the main reason he moved to London Irish was to try and win back his Ireland Test Jersey (he was offered a contract by Munster), but he went to LI to get first team playing time.
Sin é
Sin é

Posts : 13725
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by dublin_dave Wed 08 Aug 2012, 10:44 am

ok so the current system is perfect lets keep things as is, play the same way with the same squad of players and coaches with the same results Crying or Very sad if kidney does this he is signing his p45.

I think Downey and Wilson should have close enough to the squad the year Northampton got to the final. I mean given the "style" of back play ireland play a big lump of a number 12 could have at least broken the gainline more frequently. You could make a case for Leo when he was at Leicester.

TOL may have got it wrong moving abroad to win his place back but that should not be the case. If he rediscovers his form of 3/4 years ago at London Irish he must be considered. He certainly wont get back there as a bit part munster player. Good luck to him hope he does well.

I think you are overestimating the standard of the premiership particularly the lower half of the table if you think they wouldn't even look at the likes of Archer,Hagan,Nagle,Conway,Hanrahan,Dave Kearney,Spence, Faloon etc. They are certainly not going to get the relevant experience in the B&I cup against the Cornish Pasties and the Bedford Braves. Week in week out premiership action in my opinion would do them the world of good. It will certainly physically toughen them up. Mollycoddling them is a typical Irish way of managing young players. Do the Kiwis do it? like feck they do

Ross had to bide his time and earn his place. Cannot see the problem with that. Stan Wright had a great last 2 seasons at Leinster. He got injured and we had a decent replacement ready to step in. Smart succession planning







dublin_dave

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-07-05

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by rodders Wed 08 Aug 2012, 11:01 am

I think some players would gain more from playing top level 7s against future internationals than playing in the B&I cup, certainly in terms of skill develoment.

Many players simply aren't suited to 7s and the B&I cup is a valuable competition but the pace and standard there isn't enough to build elite level skills.

Val are you seriously saying the likes of Spence, D'arcy, Conway, Carr, Dom Ryan,D. Kearney etc. are playing too many games? We aren't talking about the top players here. How many games will JJ Hanaran play next season?

Once the players leave the U20s there is a big gap there. There are only so many positions available at provincial level. 7s would help fill this gap for some players especially the outside backs and backrowers who can't get regular gametime and develop skills that would make them more complete players. Once become key provincial players then they would drop from the 7s circuit.
rodders
rodders
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Sin é Wed 08 Aug 2012, 12:15 pm

dublin_dave wrote:ok so the current system is perfect lets keep things as is, play the same way with the same squad of players and coaches with the same results Crying or Very sad if kidney does this he is signing his p45.

I think Downey and Wilson should have close enough to the squad the year Northampton got to the final. I mean given the "style" of back play ireland play a big lump of a number 12 could have at least broken the gainline more frequently. You could make a case for Leo when he was at Leicester.

Downey was on the tour to US & Canada (along with Ross) 3 years ago, so he was obviously looked at. The fact that Sexton was having trouble finding his feet at international level would have also been a factor as he would have been used to D'Arcy playing outside him.

TOL may have got it wrong moving abroad to win his place back but that should not be the case. If he rediscovers his form of 3/4 years ago at London Irish he must be considered. He certainly wont get back there as a bit part munster player. Good luck to him hope he does well.

If there was any bias in selection about moving away from Ireland, Tomas would have been aware of it. Its obviously on ability and form and availability that the selections are made. Hopefully Tomas has it in his contract that he will be released for all Ireland camps and not just the IRB minimum days.

I think you are overestimating the standard of the premiership particularly the lower half of the table if you think they wouldn't even look at the likes of Archer,Hagan,Nagle,Conway,Hanrahan,Dave Kearney,Spence, Faloon etc. They are certainly not going to get the relevant experience in the B&I cup against the Cornish Pasties and the Bedford Braves. Week in week out premiership action in my opinion would do them the world of good. It will certainly physically toughen them up. Mollycoddling them is a typical Irish way of managing young players. Do the Kiwis do it? like feck they do

I don't believe they are mollycoddled - for instance, I remember Murray & Sherry playing a game for Garryowen the day after playing for B+I Cup in England. I also recall Peter O'Mahony having played for Cork Con (could be a final) the day before he played in England the B+I Cup final (which Munster lost).

Lots seem to head to England anyway - but to Championship clubs where they do get lots of gametime. It will be interesting to see how Sean Dougall performs for Munster this year (was in Ulster academy, missed about 2 years through injury, went to Rotherham and played every week for them for last season (and captaining the team). There are a few more Irish lads there, many of whom have now moved onto Premiership clubs.

You also have to bear in mind that some of those players may still be in college so are not free to be sent anywhere (or live out of a bag playing Sevens around the globe)!

Playing AIL has not held back Leo Auva'a, Murray, Sherry, Earls, Sexton & O'Mahony, Sexton up to now.


Ross had to bide his time and earn his place. Cannot see the problem with that. Stan Wright had a great last 2 seasons at Leinster. He got injured and we had a decent replacement ready to step in. Smart succession planning






[/quote]
Sin é
Sin é

Posts : 13725
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 08 Aug 2012, 3:45 pm

We should ask conor o'shea to recruit some irish players for quins. Im sure he would be happy to give irish players experience.

LeinsterFan4life

Posts : 6092
Join date : 2012-03-13
Age : 34
Location : Meath

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by valjester Wed 08 Aug 2012, 7:40 pm

rodders wrote:I think some players would gain more from playing top level 7s against future internationals than playing in the B&I cup, certainly in terms of skill develoment.

Many players simply aren't suited to 7s and the B&I cup is a valuable competition but the pace and standard there isn't enough to build elite level skills.

Val are you seriously saying the likes of Spence, D'arcy, Conway, Carr, Dom Ryan,D. Kearney etc. are playing too many games? We aren't talking about the top players here. How many games will JJ Hanaran play next season?

Once the players leave the U20s there is a big gap there. There are only so many positions available at provincial level. 7s would help fill this gap for some players especially the outside backs and backrowers who can't get regular gametime and develop skills that would make them more complete players. Once become key provincial players then they would drop from the 7s circuit.

Carr is never going to make it, so he would be perfect as a sevens player. D'arcy, I presume the Ulster one, is needed by Ulster, we can't afford to let him go off playing sevens for the season. Same with spence, but he Conway and Dom Ryan were all injured last year. I'm not arguing that sevens wouldn't be a good experience for these players, I just don't see where they could get the time. If they were to go on the sevens circuit they would be unavailable to their provincial squads all year and I reckon all the bolded players will get into double figures in appearances this season.
I would also be extremely hopeful that JJ gets a decent amount of gametime.

valjester

Posts : 1874
Join date : 2011-06-19
Location : here, there and everywhere

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by valjester Wed 08 Aug 2012, 7:43 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We should ask conor o'shea to recruit some irish players for quins. Im sure he would be happy to give irish players experience.


Its not his job to give Irish players experience though, O'Shea will do what is best for Quins, if that means there is an Irish player available to sign, who will improve the team he will do that. But it is much more in his interest to develop the young English players they have, especially as the RFU give them money if they play a certain number of England eligible players.

valjester

Posts : 1874
Join date : 2011-06-19
Location : here, there and everywhere

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Feckless Rogue Wed 08 Aug 2012, 7:46 pm

I don't think there's the depth in Irish rugby yet. It's only recently we're seeing very good strength in depth in the provincial squads. And even they still have around 5 foreign players.

I think there'll be more Irish players knocking about as time goes on thanks to the recent growth in popularity in the sport. Then we can look at a 7's side. But we just don't have enough players at the moment.
Feckless Rogue
Feckless Rogue

Posts : 3230
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : The Mighty Kingdom Of Leinster

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by valjester Wed 08 Aug 2012, 7:53 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:I don't think there's the depth in Irish rugby yet. It's only recently we're seeing very good strength in depth in the provincial squads. And even they still have around 5 foreign players.

I think there'll be more Irish players knocking about as time goes on thanks to the recent growth in popularity in the sport. Then we can look at a 7's side. But we just don't have enough players at the moment.

We are getting there, with should have enough quality players within 5 years, but whether we have the finances to support them is the other question. More Irish players are going to have to start moving abroad in order to get game time.

valjester

Posts : 1874
Join date : 2011-06-19
Location : here, there and everywhere

Back to top Go down

Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review - Page 5 Empty Re: Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 5 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum