Gloucester, my tip to break into the Aviva top4 play off's.

Ofcourse everyone expects (Leicester, Northampton, Harlequins & Saracens) the usual suspects to make the end of season play off's, however having examined the Gloucester 2012/13 squad with its new additions and new coaching set up, I think this will be their break through season. Added to this I dont expect anymore than Morgan and Sharples (though maybe May?) to be called up for England - obviously Twelvetrees should be starting but thats a different post. I guess the question is can the Gloucester forwards win enough possession for their exciting backs to exploit?

As a Leinsterman I can sympathize with the problem of having great backs and a less than great pack. We were in the same position for years. But even with the magic of O'Driscoll, Contepomi, Horgan, Hicke etc. we saw very little success until we got better fatties up front.

Feckless Rogue wrote:As a Leinsterman I can sympathize with the problem of having great backs and a less than great pack. We were in the same position for years. But even with the magic of O'Driscoll, Contepomi, Horgan, Hicke etc. we saw very little success until we got better fatties up front.

Until you brought in brad thorne, cj van der linde, richard strauss, Rocky elsom, nathan white and the rest and effectively bought the heineken cup. Isa nacewa aint bad either. I hope goucester dont go down this road.

The squad is generally English and as mentioned I only expect 2 or 3 to be selected for either the autumn or 6 nations games. Furthermore i'm only considering the Jeff as Gloucester arn't in the H'cup this year - which will be to their benefit.

Feckless I do take your point, though I'm hoping with the clubs traditions that the pack stands up. It will really interesting to see how this unfolds, here's hoping.

Scrumdown wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:As a Leinsterman I can sympathize with the problem of having great backs and a less than great pack. We were in the same position for years. But even with the magic of O'Driscoll, Contepomi, Horgan, Hicke etc. we saw very little success until we got better fatties up front.

Until you brought in brad thorne, cj van der linde, richard strauss, Rocky elsom, nathan white and the rest and effectively bought the heineken cup. Isa nacewa aint bad either. I hope goucester dont go down this road.

Have a pint of Guinness

Scrumdown wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:As a Leinsterman I can sympathize with the problem of having great backs and a less than great pack. We were in the same position for years. But even with the magic of O'Driscoll, Contepomi, Horgan, Hicke etc. we saw very little success until we got better fatties up front.

Until you brought in brad thorne, cj van der linde, richard strauss, Rocky elsom, nathan white and the rest and effectively bought the heineken cup. Isa nacewa aint bad either. I hope goucester dont go down this road.

If this is a serious post, I'd ask that you make a list of non-English qualified players that appeared for Glaws over the same period those you list for Leinster above? After that, perhaps you'll reconsider your comment?

I'm looking forward to seeing the Glaws backrow this season. I rate Kalamafoni very highly and think he could be the signing of the season for all clubs.

Kingelderfield you are my new favourite 606'er!

This season is going to be very interesting for Glaws. I completely agree our success or failure will entirely be down to our forwards. If our first team 8 stay fit we'll be in with a real chance, but injuries to Nick Wood or Jim Hamilton will scupper our chances. We're going to have some great ball carriers in Qera, Kalamafoni and Morgan, but do we have the ball winner? I'd really like Matt Cox to be given a proper run this yeat and hopefully fill this void. Also Jimmy Cowan should make a huge difference as invariably any quick ball won by our forwards was slowed down by Lawson! Despite my bias I think we'll give it a really good go at finishing in the top 4, but I feel we'll come 5th.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:As a Leinsterman I can sympathize with the problem of having great backs and a less than great pack. We were in the same position for years. But even with the magic of O'Driscoll, Contepomi, Horgan, Hicke etc. we saw very little success until we got better fatties up front.

Until you brought in brad thorne, cj van der linde, richard strauss, Rocky elsom, nathan white and the rest and effectively bought the heineken cup. Isa nacewa aint bad either. I hope goucester dont go down this road.

If this is a serious post, I'd ask that you make a list of non-English qualified players that appeared for Glaws over the same period those you list for Leinster above? After that, perhaps you'll reconsider your comment?

At present though, gloucester have very few non english qualified players in their squad and quite a few have come through the academy and i hope that they keep it this way. I feel that the success of the irish provinces is tainted slightly by the number of influential imports in their ranks. The signing of Brad Thorn on such a short term contract seemed almost unsporting. Maybe next year theyll bring in dan carter for a few months!

How are we the usual suspects? We've been in the top 4 twice in the past 10 years or something like that! I agree if things gel then Glaws will be up there

I'm pretty sure Scrumdown isn't a Glaws fan anyway ASBO

If only the Leinster academy could produce players to match the Gloucester one, we wouldn't have to field 15 All Blacks to stand a chance.

Scrumdown wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:As a Leinsterman I can sympathize with the problem of having great backs and a less than great pack. We were in the same position for years. But even with the magic of O'Driscoll, Contepomi, Horgan, Hicke etc. we saw very little success until we got better fatties up front.

Until you brought in brad thorne, cj van der linde, richard strauss, Rocky elsom, nathan white and the rest and effectively bought the heineken cup. Isa nacewa aint bad either. I hope goucester dont go down this road.

If this is a serious post, I'd ask that you make a list of non-English qualified players that appeared for Glaws over the same period those you list for Leinster above? After that, perhaps you'll reconsider your comment?

At present though, gloucester have very few non english qualified players in their squad and quite a few have come through the academy and i hope that they keep it this way. I feel that the success of the irish provinces is tainted slightly by the number of influential imports in their ranks. The signing of Brad Thorn on such a short term contract seemed almost unsporting. Maybe next year theyll bring in dan carter for a few months!

im not even gonna bother to debate this.

I think Glawster will be quite good this season. The key, as said above, is to take advantage of the International periods and win through, most importantly if they play any of the teams hard hit by International call-ups during the International windows.

I think their problem is that it seems to me each of the presumed top 4 (Harlequins, Leicester, Saracens, and Saints) all seem to have improved:
Leicester by virtue of bringing in even more real quality talent, almost by salary cap magic.
Saracens signed Chris Ashton and will now have Hodgson for the full season (not being in the EPS any more).
Quins through sheer experience of winning and expereince for the younger players.
Saints through good signings, improved depth, experience gained by younger players and having Tom Wood and Calum Clark back.

So, have Gloucester improved more than the presumed 'top 4'?

Quins have the experience of winning in the bank. But all the opposition will be a little wiser to them. When your successful your analysed to death and coach's try new tactics to negate your threat.

Who have Saints signed? They've lost a couple of their Irish lads.

I think Saracens and Tigers will be stronger.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Who have Saints signed? They've lost a couple of their Irish lads.

No doubts Roger Wilson and James Downey are big losses. Terrific players and real leaders on the pitch. However, Saints are improved in my opinion because:

New signings:
Luther Burrell (Sale) centre
Gerrit-Jan van Velze (Blue Bulls, SA) Back Row
Dominic Waldouck (Wasps) centre
James Wilson (Southland, NZ) centre
Sam Dickinson (Rotherham) 2nd row or lock
Ken Pisi (North Harbour, NZ) wing

Influential players out at latter stages of the season and playoffs, but are returning (injury/suspension):
Tom Wood
Calum Clark
Courtney Lawes
Dylan Hartley
Vasily Artemyev

Young players who benefitted from experience who should improve even more:
James Craig - Back row (23)
Jamie Elliott – Wing (20)
Mike Haywood – Hooker (20)
Alex Waller – Prop (22)
Ben Nutley – Flanker (20)

This is all from memory, so I might have missed someone. The Saints team at the end of the season was much fairly different than the one which started the season due to injurines and suspensions. But it provided the opportunity to blood some serious youth with real talent.

Scrumdown wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:As a Leinsterman I can sympathize with the problem of having great backs and a less than great pack. We were in the same position for years. But even with the magic of O'Driscoll, Contepomi, Horgan, Hicke etc. we saw very little success until we got better fatties up front.

Until you brought in brad thorne, cj van der linde, richard strauss, Rocky elsom, nathan white and the rest and effectively bought the heineken cup. Isa nacewa aint bad either. I hope goucester dont go down this road.

If this is a serious post, I'd ask that you make a list of non-English qualified players that appeared for Glaws over the same period those you list for Leinster above? After that, perhaps you'll reconsider your comment?

At present though, gloucester have very few non english qualified players in their squad and quite a few have come through the academy and i hope that they keep it this way. I feel that the success of the irish provinces is tainted slightly by the number of influential imports in their ranks. The signing of Brad Thorn on such a short term contract seemed almost unsporting. Maybe next year theyll bring in dan carter for a few months!

Really, Scrumdown? I'm wondering about your knowledge of rugby, I have to be honest.

Current non-EQ would include Elliot, Cowan, Chistolini, Hamilton, Kalamafoni, Thomas, James and Qera (poss Molenaar too); recent non-EQ would include S Lawson, Azam, R Lawson, EFS, Cortese, Strokosch, Robinson, Delve, Cooper and a host of others

Perhaps it is simply that Leinster's non-IQ players are of a higher standard and therefore stick in the memory easier?

Why would Morgan be called up for England?

England have Foden,Brown and Goode. Homer and Miller waiting in the wings too.

Twelvetrees needs to get some consistency and shine at Gloucester before being considered a starter for England in my opinion.

Anyway back on topic - Gloucester could well be a dark horse. They did make the playoffs in 2010/11 after all.

I think 8 to 15 they look strong but I still wonder whether Gloucester have enough power in the pack and the rest of the backrow.

Of the current 4 to be pushed out I think the mostly likely would be Quins. I doubt they'll get as good a start next season because their rivals will also be at full strength.Also a lot of sides will have extra incentive to beat Quins because they are the champions now.

They'll lose key players to England for far longer - the likes of Robshaw,Marler and Brown's absence will undoubtedly be felt.

Also I expect Quins to go far in the HC, semi final at least. Mainly due to their pool. This will stretch their resources further.

Ultimately Quins will depend on how their youngsters perform in the absence of their biggest names.

Gloucester have a new coach and a host of new players. This gives makes them a bit of a unknown quantity which is pretty dangerous.

Why would Morgan be called up for England?

Ben as opposed to Olly.

Leicester by virtue of bringing in even more real quality talent, almost by salary cap magic

Players in: Logo Mulipola (Prop, long term deal), Rob Andrew (Lock), Cornwall (10/12), Bowden (10/12), Benjamin (Wing), Thompstone (Wing), Goneva (13/Wing).

Injury Dispensations: Thorpe (Backrow, for Newby), Deacon (Backrow, for Woods/Croft), Phibbs (9 for Ben Youngs/Scott Steele).

Players Out: Bucknall (Prop), White (Prop), Green (Lock), Armes (Backrow), Pienaar (Backrow), Grindal (9), Staunton (10), Twelvetrees (10/12), Tuilagi (Wing), Agulla (Wing), Dante Mama (Wing).

So 7 in and 11 out. Including one of our biggest earners in Alesana Tuilagi.

Sam,

Why did they release Green? Did they not see a future for him or is it one of those cases where they let the player go but will be keeping a very close eye on him while he is away?

MBTGOG wrote:Sam,

Why did they release Green? Did they not see a future for him or is it one of those cases where they let the player go but will be keeping a very close eye on him while he is away?

I would have loved for Green to come to Glaws, I think he's got real potential. But at least at Leeds he'll get some much needed game time.

MBTGOG, HKC hits the nail on the head. He came back from a long injury lay off and played a couple of games. When his contract came up for renewal he told Cockers he wanted to be playing every week and Leeds had offered him a contract. Cockers was complimentary of him in the media and has publically said he'll have him back in a couple of years if everything goes well. To be honest I think the knee injury really has effected him and he isn't the tallest lock going. Be interesting to see how he develops.

From a purely Tigers point of view I've heard a rumour we are releasing Ford's long term understudy in the Tigers academy, Rory Lynn, to Notts for a season so he can get some experience.

Yes Sam looks like you are correct.Ben Morgan indeed not Olly Morgan.

HKC do you think Gloucester have enough strength in depth?

I think you have a strong 8-15 XV but I do wonder about certain positions.

Who fills Burns boots at 10 for example if he's injured?

What about the 2nd row? It looks like you only have 3 locks in the squad!

I can see us not making the top 4, think it's likely we will though. If we make a HEC final, maybe it's acceptable not to make the Playoffs. Otherwise it's not

beshocked wrote:Yes Sam looks like you are correct.Ben Morgan indeed not Olly Morgan.

HKC do you think Gloucester have enough strength in depth?

I think you have a strong 8-15 XV but I do wonder about certain positions.

Who fills Burns boots at 10 for example if he's injured?

What about the 2nd row? It looks like you only have 3 locks in the squad!

It's a bit of a mixed bag on the SID front. At LH we've got Nick Wood, but whilst Yann Thomas is a promising understudy as last season showed without Woody we're in trouble. Hooker should be fine with Edmonds, Dawiduik and Britton and likewise we have 2 very promising THs in Harden and Knight. But 2nd row is our real problem. We have Hamilton, Brown, Savage (who may turn out to be a 6) and James, so we really need another lock to come in, otherwise the stalwart Buxton will need to make a few more camoes in the boiler room. I think this year will be too soon for the U20s player Stooke to come through. At 6 we've got Kalamfoni (who'll cover 8 too), Buxton and Savage, 7 we have Qera, Hazell and Cox (also covering 8) and at 8 we have Morgan. We also have the promising youngsters Gareth Evans, Ross Moriarty and Rob Langley to cover the back row. So really it is down to LH and lock. If they stay fully fit we'll be alright, but if we lose Woody and Hamilton we could be in trouble. Having said that Scarlets played very well with no pack to speak of, so if anyone can help Glaws Nigel Davies can!

We have Hamilton, Brown, Savage (who may turn out to be a 6) and James, so we really need another lock to come in, otherwise the stalwart Buxton will need to make a few more camoes in the boiler room.

What happened to Dave Markham, he left Tigers A Team (a year after signing) to go to Gloucester because he wanted more first team chances. Is he not in the mix at all or has he moved on again (the rumours I heard were he was a tad difficult)?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

We have Hamilton, Brown, Savage (who may turn out to be a 6) and James, so we really need another lock to come in, otherwise the stalwart Buxton will need to make a few more camoes in the boiler room.

What happened to Dave Markham, he left Tigers A Team (a year after signing) to go to Gloucester because he wanted more first team chances. Is he not in the mix at all or has he moved on again (the rumours I heard were he was a tad difficult)?

He's joined Jersey. He didn't make any appearances for us and was dual reg'd with Cinderford, but didn't make many appearances there either. hopefully Jersey will give him the game time he needs.

HKC according to at least one Scarlets fan Scarlets had one of the best scrums in the Pro12 so maybe Nigel Davies will work wonders in the scrum for you too.


Sorry to say but I don't look at your backrow as a particularly big threat in regards to the breakdown. Your new star signings in the backrow are both no 8s - Kalamafoni and Morgan - both big ball carrying threats but gelling them into a cohesive backrow unit could take some time.

In my opinion the other backrowers aren't as strong as those in the top 4.

I do think your backline options are threatening though so if you can unleash them it won't matter.

The way I would target Gloucester would be to starve you of possession and frustate you without the ball your threatening backline won't be able to strut their stuff.

I agree with you Beshocked on the breakdown front (but I do feel K is more of 6, which is why he was signed). If we were to start with a backrow of K, Q & Morgan we'd probably have the best ball carrying backrow in the Jeff, but we wouldn't have a fetcher. Matt Cox has been groomed as Andy Hazell's long term successor, so I do feel it is time for him to be given a proper shot, rather than just moved along the back row to cover. ND has been talking a good game regarding the breakdown, but only time will tell if we can practice what he preaches!

I agree with Beshocked, minimising Glaws posession is an easy way to keep them out of the game. Johnny May is also a weakness under the high ball which could be something to exploit ruthlessly if there is a good chase organised. Moving the ball around a lot and getting that big Glaws backrow blowing will also slow down their pack quite a bit.

They could certainly do with having a nippy scoundrel of a 7 to get around the park and hound the opposition half backs and the breakdown. Cox could do that job as he is quite tall and has a touch of pace about him.

beshocked wrote:HKC according to at least one Scarlets fan Scarlets had one of the best scrums in the Pro12 so maybe Nigel Davies will work wonders in the scrum for you too.


Sorry to say but I don't look at your backrow as a particularly big threat in regards to the breakdown. Your new star signings in the backrow are both no 8s - Kalamafoni and Morgan - both big ball carrying threats but gelling them into a cohesive backrow unit could take some time.

In my opinion the other backrowers aren't as strong as those in the top 4.

I do think your backline options are threatening though so if you can unleash them it won't matter.

The way I would target Gloucester would be to starve you of possession and frustate you without the ball your threatening backline won't be able to strut their stuff.

Which one of us was that (please don't say me), it is bad but nota s bad as the press make you.

I have said that I think Glaws will be top 4 already (along with Sarries, Tiggers, and Cheifs). I think the key thing will be how Nigel Davies settles in.

formerly known as Sam wrote: Johnny May is also a weakness under the high ball which could be something to exploit ruthlessly if there is a good chase organised.

It looks like May will be used as a winger going forward. We have signed Rob Cook and Martyn Thomas as specialist FBs and hopefully Morgan will return fit and well in January.

Well the George Ford special is the cross field hanging kick about 10m behind the winger so they have to run back to it at the same time as the Tigers chase arrives with the winger's supporting full back left in no man's land. Considering how cack our chase was without Billy or Salvi in the team I'm really glad we got Benjamin as he loves a good kick chase.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Well the George Ford special is the cross field hanging kick about 10m behind the winger so they have to run back to it at the same time as the Tigers chase arrives with the winger's supporting full back left in no man's land. Considering how cack our chase was without Billy or Salvi in the team I'm really glad we got Benjamin as he loves a good kick chase.

Your kick chase is fine, especially when Castro leads it as Olly Morgan will testify! I am getting a bit fed up of playing Tigers as whenever we do you injure one of our key players.

How do Gloucester fans rated big trim Jim Hamilton?

Whats the crack with this young lad Savage. Getting rave reviews. Is he a blindisde or a second row...

reallybored wrote:How do Gloucester fans rated big trim Jim Hamilton?

Despite his rather disappointing end to last season, he has had a huge influence on Glaws. Despite the thrown punches he is still in the running to be named captain. He is also central to our rolling maul, which when it gets rumbling is a great sight to watch - it is just a shame it isn't used as often as it should. He is one of our key players and will be central as to whether our pack can step up to the mark this coming season.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats the crack with this young lad Savage. Getting rave reviews. Is he a blindisde or a second row...

He is my player to watch this season. Considering he's only been playing for about 4 years he is developing outstandingly well. It's still unsure if he'll be a lock or a 6 - I have doubts he'll be tall enough for a lock - he could even develop into an 8. He is a highly physical player and is already a very good ball carrier. He still has a lot to learn, but there is no doubt he will go onto be a very good player. He is some Glaws fans dark horse for the captaincy, but I can't see that for a few years.