The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

+36
hodge
kemet
Dave.
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler
JDizzle
dummy_half
EnglishReign
FerN
Gerry SA
VTR
Fists of Fury
Liam
guildfordbat
Duty281
ShankyCricket
DouglasJardinesbox
andyi
ChequeredJersey
hampo17
Mad for Chelsea
chrisss
Good Golly I'm Olly
Mike Selig
Shelsey93
Hibbz
trebellbobaggins
liverbnz
msp83
mystiroakey
gboycottnut
KP_fan
GSC
Biltong
alfie
ShahenshahG
eirebilly
40 posters

Page 3 of 20 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 11 ... 20  Next

Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 1:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

Yeah, the fielding certainly has left alot to be desired. Still the chances are being created and things must surely stick soon.
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down


England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:44 pm

Hibbz- Trebbs isnt cursed- he lays the curse and is a wizard

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Hibbz Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:49 pm

mystiroakey wrote:If we get them out and have a chance to win at 2.5 to 3 an over what ever the target - i will be a happy fan

Then prepare yourself for unhappiness Mysti.

Hibbz
hibbz
hibbz

Posts : 2119
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Right here.

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:51 pm

90 overs a day minimum hibbz!! do your maths again..


mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:52 pm

But i will adjust it to 3- 3.5 anyway!!! because that seems alot more realistic

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Hibbz Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:52 pm

mystiroakey wrote:90 overs a day minimum hibbz!! do your maths again..


Done and corrected. Sorry.

Hibbz
hibbz
hibbz

Posts : 2119
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Right here.

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by alfie Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:56 pm

One reason why South Africa are (probably) going to win this series is that they have negated Swann pretty well.
Still think it was daft to leave him out at Leeds , but perhaps if he'd played there we wouldn't have seen Finn so I guess I shouldn't complain.
Thought before the first match that spin was one area where England had a distinct advantage , but in fact it hasn't really been a factor at all . Partly the conditions , but also a lot of credit to Amla who has taken a lot of the sting from Swann.

alfie

Posts : 21189
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:59 pm

swann has been pretty good imo- the last 9 days have been spot on even- for some reason we wernt at the races in the first test.. Not taking anything away from SA though- We are at home!! And i dont think i am being arrogant to suggest that no other team could have done this to us!

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:05 pm

There is the 300 run lead. Still very gettable but England really do need to mop up the tail sharpish.
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by alfie Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:05 pm

It appears three wickets are still to fall at tea , and the lead is 300.

So unless they fall rather swiftly after tea , that target is going to be a very steep mountain to claim.

I think I will leave you fellows to it , in view of the lateness of the hour here Smile

Hope there is still a competitive game on tomorrow , but I fear that may be a bit too much to ask ...been a great four days anyway.

Cheers all.

alfie

Posts : 21189
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:07 pm

if we can get em out within 20 overs- that levbes us with a minimum of 105 overs - and we have a chance to get 330..

If SA bat the day- we are history

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by trebellbobaggins Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:10 pm

what's the record fourth innings chase for england? i didn't think it was that high?

trebellbobaggins

Posts : 4943
Join date : 2011-06-03

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:13 pm

get through the new ball and we have a chance at 330- records are for historians not winners

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:16 pm

Somebody posted the records yesterday trebbs and they wer'nt that high to be honest. England still have a lot of work to do and one of Strauss, Cook or Trott have to get a big score.
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Biltong Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:17 pm

Yeah I can't remember exactly, the highest run chase was WI with 344, the second highest was England with something like 218 or 248


Last edited by Biltong on Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Biltong
Biltong
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Shelsey93 Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:17 pm

At this stage South Africa remain clear favourites. Philander can bat very well, and Duminy seems to have improved his game against Swann. Both of these factors are part of why SA will be number one at the end of the series - previous weaknesses (Swann was all over them in 09/10 and the tail was the longest in the world until Philander arrived) have quickly been negated.

Chasing 300+ is always very tough, and history tells us it just doesn't happen that often*. We'll do well to limit the chase to under 350 even from here and so it seems certain to be an uphill struggle.

* This stat is sometimes a little bit unfair. On numerous occasions teams have scored 400+ in the fourth innings at Lord's, but almost always in a losing or drawing cause.

Shelsey93

Posts : 3134
Join date : 2011-12-14
Age : 30

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:20 pm

The track isnt gonna diminish- get through the first 20 overs with the new ball and id give us a good shot.

the problem is getting them out quick- otherwise the rest is immaterial

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Shelsey93 Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:23 pm

mystiroakey wrote:The track isnt gonna diminish

You'd think not on the history of Lord's tracks in the last 10 years, but I do feel that this particular surface is a little different - a bit quicker and perhaps offering slightly more variable bounce than normal

Shelsey93

Posts : 3134
Join date : 2011-12-14
Age : 30

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by KP_fan Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:31 pm

Broad was a known weakness...........Anderson who i rate as world's fastest genuine swing bolwer....has surprised me.
he has gone flat.... lost a yard of pace......and somehow the wicket taking ability with the new ball

KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 10250
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by ShahenshahG Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:35 pm

It happens that way sometimes - it was a golden opportunity for Finn who responded well. Broad is a very good bowler but Finn can be something special

ShahenshahG

Posts : 15725
Join date : 2011-02-11
Age : 38
Location : The happiest man a morning ever sees

http://www.wwwdotcom.com

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by msp83 Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:39 pm

Without Pietersen, there is absolutely no chance of England even coming anywhere close to chasing down 300+ in a day. South Africa already leads by 308, and there are 3 wickets left in the bag.

msp83

Posts : 16069
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:41 pm

msp- cook and bell could do it no dramas- however if we cant get them out!!

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by KP_fan Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:42 pm

KP_fan wrote:Broad was a known weakness...........Anderson who i rate as world's fastest genuine swing bolwer....has surprised me.
he has gone flat.... lost a yard of pace......and somehow the wicket taking ability with the new ball


and ^his catching has been Monty-esque
Looks like he is not enjoying his game and not happy Very Happy
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 10250
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:43 pm

that was out!! grrrr

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by msp83 Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:48 pm

mystiroakey wrote:msp- cook and bell could do it no dramas- however if we cant get them out!!

No chance, sorry about that. It is not just about having the ability to score big runs. Its about belief, it is about taking on the best bowlers and taking them apart, its about changing and taking the moments. We all saw how Trott, Strauss, Cook, and the rest faired during the last test. And even with KP in there, it would have been very, very dificult. But whi him players like Sehwag, they can do things with the selfbelief they have.

msp83

Posts : 16069
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Mike Selig Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:50 pm

6 singles in 8 balls. Completely unacceptable for a team trying to win a test to draw the series. Ludicrous.

Mike Selig

Posts : 4295
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:50 pm

KP_fan wrote:Broad was a known weakness...........Anderson who i rate as world's fastest genuine swing bolwer....has surprised me.
he has gone flat.... lost a yard of pace......and somehow the wicket taking ability with the new ball


The same Broad that is the leading wicket taker in test cricket in 2012? Seriously, can you please at least approach things with some element of subjectivity?
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Mike Selig Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:51 pm

You can't build a wicket if you don't bowl more than 2 balls consecutively at the same batsman.

Same problem as in the first innings.

Pathetic frankly.

Mike Selig

Posts : 4295
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by KP_fan Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:52 pm

strauss over bolwing finn......understandabale thouhg the otehr two seamers haven't looked like getting a wicket
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 10250
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Biltong Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:54 pm

115 overs left in the game, if SA bats another 10 overs then England will have a tough time chasing it down in 105 overs.
Biltong
Biltong
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Mike Selig Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:55 pm

Pitch is still good to bat on, but tough to score runs quickly, ball not coming onto the bat. South Africa probably have enough runs already.

Another single to Philander in the first two balls of the over. I give up, I really do.

Mike Selig

Posts : 4295
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:55 pm

Its almost too much for them now i feel biltong. There will be no draw this match...
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by KP_fan Sun 19 Aug 2012, 4:57 pm

I think Smith will declare with about 10 overs to go....

about 375 to chase in 100 overs.......he has been positive all throuhg the series and will feel safe with that equation
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 10250
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Mike Selig Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:01 pm

This partnership has really put the nail in England's coffin. Looking very flat now.

Philander can bat, but he's not this good.

Mike Selig

Posts : 4295
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Shelsey93 Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:03 pm

KP_fan wrote:I think Smith will declare with about 10 overs to go....

about 375 to chase in 100 overs.......he has been positive all throuhg the series and will feel safe with that equation

My defensive instincts tell me that that would be a tad too dangerous... on the off chance that SA are still batting by then I wouldn't expect a declaration till 400 to get from 2 and a half sessions or something along those lines. No need to throw things away, or ram home the advantage.

Shelsey93

Posts : 3134
Join date : 2011-12-14
Age : 30

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:04 pm

Philander is only four runs short of 100 runs this test Shocked
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Biltong Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:05 pm

Mike Selig wrote:This partnership has really put the nail in England's coffin. Looking very flat now.

Philander can bat, but he's not this good.
Well he has been that good this series
Biltong
Biltong
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by liverbnz Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:06 pm

Get these last 2 quick and we have a game.

liverbnz

Posts : 2958
Join date : 2011-03-07
Age : 40
Location : Newcastle, County Down

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Biltong Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:07 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:I think Smith will declare with about 10 overs to go....

about 375 to chase in 100 overs.......he has been positive all throuhg the series and will feel safe with that equation

My defensive instincts tell me that that would be a tad too dangerous... on the off chance that SA are still batting by then I wouldn't expect a declaration till 400 to get from 2 and a half sessions or something along those lines. No need to throw things away, or ram home the advantage.
They won't last that long. Philander gone
Biltong
Biltong
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:07 pm

Finally Very Happy
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by msp83 Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:07 pm

At last Anderson gets a wicket, Philander has gifted that. Morne in now, could be some funn time!.

msp83

Posts : 16069
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by GSC Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:08 pm

No need for SA to declare tbh. They win the series with a draw
GSC
GSC

Posts : 43162
Join date : 2011-03-28
Age : 32
Location : Leicester

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:09 pm

GSC wrote:No need for SA to declare tbh. They win the series with a draw

True but Smith is a very attacking captain. I would say now declaration now though.
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by KP_fan Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:10 pm

Philander is underrated....but has shown himself good with the bat and ball.....another one in the long tradition of bowling allrounders fromn SA.....in their relatively short history.

won't be surprised if an IPL Franchisee picks him soon
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 10250
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by GSC Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:10 pm

Attack when it makes sense. Right now every run and second that passes edges SA closer to #1.
GSC
GSC

Posts : 43162
Join date : 2011-03-28
Age : 32
Location : Leicester

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:11 pm

Msp- you dont have to say sorry- I just dont agree with a word of it..

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:11 pm

Again true but i am almost certain that Smith will want to win the series 2-0 rather than 1-0 Very Happy
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by KP_fan Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:13 pm

Eng missing KP's bowling also
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 10250
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Biltong Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:13 pm

2-0 does have a better ring to it. Whistle
Biltong
Biltong
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by eirebilly Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:14 pm

Finn or even Broad would be good to get Morkel out i feel.
eirebilly
eirebilly

Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by mystiroakey Sun 19 Aug 2012, 5:17 pm

errmmm is that out

mystiroakey

Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey

Back to top Go down

England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread - Page 3 Empty Re: England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 20 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 11 ... 20  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum