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who will open for England now?

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 29 Aug 2012, 12:12

First topic message reminder :

There is no obvious front runner to replace Andrew Strauss.

The last man to open for England other than Strauss and Cook was Jonathan Trott (second test in bangladesh a couple of years ago) - and I guess this is a definite option. Michael Carberry was on that tour and was capped in the first test - however form and fitness have been an issue recently.

Nick Compton and Joe Root opened for the Lions this summer. While Root does have the required class (as a yorkshire follower i am of course biased) , I feel he needs more experience. Compton had a fantastic start to the summer but I have seen nothing to suggest he is an international quality player.

What are the other options?

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 30 Aug 2012, 10:45

I'd take Northeast with the Lions this winter.

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Post by Stella Thu 30 Aug 2012, 10:50

Taking Napier to India would be like feeding him to the Lions.
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Post by Mike Selig Thu 30 Aug 2012, 12:07

Never been all that impressed with Northeast to be honest.

Robson I'm fairly sure isn't England-qualified. He is a solid batsman but somewhat prone to playing around his front pad hence a few LBWs.

Joe Denly was seen for a while as the next in line, and has had a good if unspectacular year after changing counties.

Frankly there is no real outstanding candidate, and whoever England do go for should be given a fair chance (i.e. at least India and New-Zealand tours). On the whole I'd go for Root. Just. Or Taylor. I like the Taylor option.

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Post by Guest Thu 30 Aug 2012, 12:09

Taylor has to be in the side somewhere IMO....

however im a big fan of Joe Root.

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Post by gboycottnut Thu 30 Aug 2012, 18:20

Mike Selig wrote:Never been all that impressed with Northeast to be honest.

Robson I'm fairly sure isn't England-qualified. He is a solid batsman but somewhat prone to playing around his front pad hence a few LBWs.

Joe Denly was seen for a while as the next in line, and has had a good if unspectacular year after changing counties.

Frankly there is no real outstanding candidate, and whoever England do go for should be given a fair chance (i.e. at least India and New-Zealand tours). On the whole I'd go for Root. Just. Or Taylor. I like the Taylor option.

Taylor may be a good attacking middle order player, but to me he does lack the proper technique needed to cope with the new moving ball particularly when it is delivered by very fast bowlers. Morkel clean up Taylor's stumps in the second test, and in the third test at Lords, Steyn got Taylor dabbing for a ball (ala David Gower) which had left him a bit outside his off-stump in that corrider of uncertainty area, with the result being that he was subsequently caught by Smith in the slips cordon. Therefore England should not use Taylor as an opener until this technical flaw in his game can be sorted out by Graham Gooch the batting coach.

Anyway, back to the subject of who should replace Strauss. I really do like the idea of using Bell as an opener as he does have the technique for coping with fast bowling, and this will also keep Trott at number 3 a batting position which it must be remembered that England had major problems in filling prior to Trott's arrival onto the Test Scene at the Oval in 2009. Alternatively, if not Bell, what about using Matt Prior as an opener. England haven't had one player who keeps wicket and also opens the batting since Alec Stewart played for England in the 1990's. And if England's selectors want to go down the route of using a wicketkeeping batsman as an opener there are 2 excellent candidates available apart from Prior in Steven Davies and Craig Kieswetter. Hopefully Kieswetter will get chosen as then this will keep the same quantity of South African born players in the England test team as was the case at the start of this test summer for when England' next play a test series in the Winter V India (assuming of course that the Big Show is selected and wants to play).

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Post by GSC Thu 30 Aug 2012, 18:21

India might not be the worst place to blood a new opener. Not massive help for seamers
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Post by gboycottnut Thu 30 Aug 2012, 18:26

GSC wrote:India might not be the worst place to blood a new opener. Not massive help for seamers

England don't actually need to blood a new young/untried specialist opener who hasn't played any form of cricket for England at an international level, as both Steven Davies and Craig Kieswetter are both competent enough players who can adapt to the role of opening the batting for England at a test match level particularly if they are going to be up against a bowling attack which India currently have.

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Post by GSC Thu 30 Aug 2012, 18:29

Can't say I'm a massive fan of either.

Michael Lumb has 2 100s in the CC this year Whistle
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Post by guildfordbat Thu 30 Aug 2012, 18:58

gboycottnut wrote:
GSC wrote:India might not be the worst place to blood a new opener. Not massive help for seamers

England don't actually need to blood a new young/untried specialist opener who hasn't played any form of cricket for England at an international level, as both Steven Davies and Craig Kieswetter are both competent enough players who can adapt to the role of opening the batting for England at a test match level particularly if they are going to be up against a bowling attack which India currently have.

Davies has been in very poor form this season and must now be a fair way off the Test team.

If only to try and get an infantile laugh from Skyeman, I would add that he's missing Surrey's current Championship match as he's got the squits - hardly an endorsement for a forthcoming tour of India! Very Happy

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Post by JDizzle Thu 30 Aug 2012, 21:09

gboycottnut wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:Never been all that impressed with Northeast to be honest.

Robson I'm fairly sure isn't England-qualified. He is a solid batsman but somewhat prone to playing around his front pad hence a few LBWs.

Joe Denly was seen for a while as the next in line, and has had a good if unspectacular year after changing counties.

Frankly there is no real outstanding candidate, and whoever England do go for should be given a fair chance (i.e. at least India and New-Zealand tours). On the whole I'd go for Root. Just. Or Taylor. I like the Taylor option.

Taylor may be a good attacking middle order player, but to me he does lack the proper technique needed to cope with the new moving ball particularly when it is delivered by very fast bowlers. Morkel clean up Taylor's stumps in the second test, and in the third test at Lords, Steyn got Taylor dabbing for a ball (ala David Gower) which had left him a bit outside his off-stump in that corrider of uncertainty area, with the result being that he was subsequently caught by Smith in the slips cordon. Therefore England should not use Taylor as an opener until this technical flaw in his game can be sorted out by Graham Gooch the batting coach.

Anyway, back to the subject of who should replace Strauss. I really do like the idea of using Bell as an opener as he does have the technique for coping with fast bowling, and this will also keep Trott at number 3 a batting position which it must be remembered that England had major problems in filling prior to Trott's arrival onto the Test Scene at the Oval in 2009. Alternatively, if not Bell, what about using Matt Prior as an opener. England haven't had one player who keeps wicket and also opens the batting since Alec Stewart played for England in the 1990's. And if England's selectors want to go down the route of using a wicketkeeping batsman as an opener there are 2 excellent candidates available apart from Prior in Steven Davies and Craig Kieswetter. Hopefully Kieswetter will get chosen as then this will keep the same quantity of South African born players in the England test team as was the case at the start of this test summer for when England' next play a test series in the Winter V India (assuming of course that the Big Show is selected and wants to play).

You can't shoot down someone for having technical difficulties on the basis of two innings. Remember when Bairstow couldn't play the short ball after getting out to it against "only" the West Indies? He seemed to deal with Morkel and Steyn rather well. I'd give Taylor a go at the top of the order against India, as it will be a fairly simple introduction against the Indian seamers on pitches that don't offer much assistance early on and with Umesh being green and Zaheer not being the force he has been for whoever they go for. The big thing should be how we play their spinners any way.

And I don't think Prior should open, he is much better coming in and punishing a tired attack and his off side orientated style won't suit bowlers probing away outside off stump and tempting to him to drive against the new ball.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 31 Aug 2012, 17:03

[quote="JDizzle"

You can't shoot down someone for having technical difficulties on the basis of two innings.[/quote]

Well KP did it after one.....


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Post by liverbnz Fri 31 Aug 2012, 17:28

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:[quote="JDizzle"

You can't shoot down someone for having technical difficulties on the basis of two innings.

Well KP did it after one.....

[/quote]

Did he? I thought that was just Pringle and his agenda.

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Post by gboycottnut Fri 31 Aug 2012, 17:42

Well it seems that if England want to go for a young untried opening batsman for the tour of India, then it has to be either Sam Northeast or Joe Root. Northeast has managed to get his batting form/game back this season after a couple of seasons where he struggled after making his county debut back in 2008/2009. Northeast also scored a decent half century innings against the current South African bowling attack in the warm-up match prior to the first test this summer. If England want to go for Joe Root, then England may as well go the full hog by dispensing with Graham Gooch and bringing in Root's fellow Yorkshireman Geoff Boycott as the England batting coach. For so many years now dear Geoff has been saying players should have done this or should have done that with their footwork or their shot selection. Well Geoffrey should be given a chance to prove that he can back up his words with his actions as the England batting coach.

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Post by Liam Fri 31 Aug 2012, 17:44

Parnell has added some pace since I last seen him. Used to be a 78-80mph left armer, now coming in at mid 80's!

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Post by Shelsey93 Fri 31 Aug 2012, 18:58

Based on what Flower said in his interview with Ian Ward shown at the interval today, I'd suggest that Trott opening is an option they are taking seriously.

Certainly, assuming KP doesn't play, I'd expect that in whatever order the top six in India will be Cook, Trott, Bell, Taylor, Bopara and Bairstow.

If that's the case I'd prefer trying Taylor opening. Carberry could be the spare batsman and come in if the experiment doesn't work. I'm not sure its Taylor's best position, but I think he will soon be a top-class Test player and could make the transition to that role. He has a good technique which shouldn't be tested that badly in India.

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Post by skyeman Sat 01 Sep 2012, 15:37

Ravi Bopara has opened in the past Wink

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Post by KP_fan Sat 01 Sep 2012, 15:43

Eng won't consider....but Morgan can be a game changing opener.....if advised to go and play "his own uninhibited game"...and give him about 10 innings run.
he has the temperament, style and strokes.....

They might discover a Sehwag/ greenidge/ Hayden / Anwar type opener who will add the second X-factor batter in their line-up....the first we all know is resting now Smile

Wishful thinking thouhg.....too radical for the conservative ECB culture influenced by Mike Atherton types

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 01 Sep 2012, 17:04

skyeman wrote:Ravi Bopara has opened in the past Wink

Batting or bowling? Very Happy

Yet again Bopara muddies the waters of selection!

Having divided views for ages over his batting, he's now set to further split opinion in an attempt to show he's the next Alec Bedser!

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Post by skyeman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 18:28

Alec stewarts picks to open:


First class records this season.

Joe Root age 21 inns 22 runs 937 hs 222* ave 49.31

Michael Carberry age 31 inns 18 runs 514 hs 84* ave 34.26

Varun Chopra age 25 inns 25 runs 843 hs 109 ave 35.12

Nick Compton age 29 inns 20 runs 1339 hs 236* ave 89.26


Root or Compton are more likely to be in the running than Bell or Trott for me. They are just too good at their own positions to be moved.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 04 Sep 2012, 18:49

Neither bell or trott would be a long term solution either, they would just open up gaps elsewhere that would need filling. England already have two middle order positions that are up for grabs with noone nailing down the 6 slot and 4 being free.
It makes more sense to do what England shouldve done a long time ago and blood a young or youngish opener. India is probably an easier place to face the new ball than England in the summer.

Im all over Root for this.


KPfan ... you might be right about Morgan for the India tour, but an England opener will end up playing most of his games in England ...remind me again how Sehwag got on here? (a clue ...he averaged 27.8 in england)
So maybe he could do the India tour, but again would only be a stop gap. he cant play the moving ball at 6 in tests, couldnt imagine him being much use next time the Aussie, Safer or Pakistani seamers visit England on the greentops.

Long term someone like Root is the only solution. Even Cook will get old eventually.

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Post by robbo277 Tue 04 Sep 2012, 21:37

Do we have a decent run of warm-ups? I'd take Root and Compton in addition to Cook, Trott, Bell, Bairstow, Taylor, Pietersen/Bopara (depending on how KP's talks with Flowers go) and try and rotate in the warm-ups.

If KP goes then I think Trott, KP and Bell are nailed for 3, 4 and 5 for the tests with Bairstow the most likely at 6, leaving the other three fighting out for the second opening position. If KP doesn't go then it opens it up for everyone to move up a spot, Taylor, Compton or Bopara to come in at 6 and one of Taylor, Compton or Root to open.

I think Taylor has been identified as a future England star, so he will definitely get in the team. So if KP goes then I think Taylor should open. If not then I'd be tempted to keep Taylor opening and bring Compton into the middle order, but giving Root a run in the team is quite tempting.

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Post by skyeman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 21:58

robbo277 wrote:Do we have a decent run of warm-ups? I'd take Root and Compton in addition to Cook, Trott, Bell, Bairstow, Taylor, Pietersen/Bopara (depending on how KP's talks with Flowers go) and try and rotate in the warm-ups.

If KP goes then I think Trott, KP and Bell are nailed for 3, 4 and 5 for the tests with Bairstow the most likely at 6, leaving the other three fighting out for the second opening position. If KP doesn't go then it opens it up for everyone to move up a spot, Taylor, Compton or Bopara to come in at 6 and one of Taylor, Compton or Root to open.

I think Taylor has been identified as a future England star, so he will definitely get in the team. So if KP goes then I think Taylor should open. If not then I'd be tempted to keep Taylor opening and bring Compton into the middle order, but giving Root a run in the team is quite tempting.

thumbsup

Two 3 day and then a 4 day warm up game. I definitely think KP will be there. So for me the main dilemma will be the opening slot: Do you risk the younger {long term solution} player, or the older more experienced player. Neither have played Test cricket, but until tried no one knows how they will fair.

Cook
Root/Compton
Trott
KP
Bell
Bairstow
Prior

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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 04 Sep 2012, 22:04

robbo277 wrote:Do we have a decent run of warm-ups? I'd take Root and Compton in addition to Cook, Trott, Bell, Bairstow, Taylor, Pietersen/Bopara (depending on how KP's talks with Flowers go) and try and rotate in the warm-ups.

If KP goes then I think Trott, KP and Bell are nailed for 3, 4 and 5 for the tests with Bairstow the most likely at 6, leaving the other three fighting out for the second opening position. If KP doesn't go then it opens it up for everyone to move up a spot, Taylor, Compton or Bopara to come in at 6 and one of Taylor, Compton or Root to open.

I think Taylor has been identified as a future England star, so he will definitely get in the team. So if KP goes then I think Taylor should open. If not then I'd be tempted to keep Taylor opening and bring Compton into the middle order, but giving Root a run in the team is quite tempting.
Agreed except that I'd take Morgan rather than Bopara(how can anyone consider him in his current form) if KP is not back.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 04 Sep 2012, 22:06

Will England play 6 batsmen?

I can see them trying to play 2 spinners - and Flower hates going in with just two seamers in case one breaks down. This is why I fear that Patel will be playing in the tests.

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Post by skyeman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 22:31

I think so, especially for the first Test. I know you should back the possible newbies. But i would have that little back up. The three Tests in the UAE were played with four bowlers but five in SL which obviously was in response to the drubbing against Pakistan. But it was not the four man attack but the batsman that cost us {imagine only five bats there}The four man attack played fantastically well.

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Post by DouglasJardinesbox Tue 04 Sep 2012, 23:01

I'm struggling to understand why Prior is not seen as a batsman. Really.

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Post by skyeman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 23:17

He is to me, he is the best wkt keeper/batsman in the world. Rescued England many times. Obviously, bats with an older ball mostly but still has a better ave than Strauss.

And i would think that when anyone says the first five or six batsman they only mean that, that is their sole job.

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Post by skyeman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 23:25

And to be honest, i would rather have Prior playing only as a batsman in the team than Bopara.

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Post by eirebilly Wed 05 Sep 2012, 06:25

I would have no problems with Prior playing purely as a batsman, he certainly has the qualities but he is also an excellent keeper. Would a replacement keeper do any better than Prior is doing/done?
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Post by Shelsey93 Wed 05 Sep 2012, 08:48

eirebilly wrote:I would have no problems with Prior playing purely as a batsman, he certainly has the qualities but he is also an excellent keeper. Would a replacement keeper do any better than Prior is doing/done?

No, and this is why this argument is slightly pointless.

England do consider Prior as a batsman, and so putting him at number six would make very little difference whatsoever, as they'd still (rightly in most cases) want a seventh batsman at seven. What I mean to say is that putting Prior in the top six doesn't magically solve which batsmen to pick, or allow you to play another bowler.

As a pure wicket-keeper he's been amongst the very best in the country in the last couple of years. Foster is still probably marginally better standing up, but it is very difficult to fault Prior.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 05 Sep 2012, 09:02

Shelsey - I agree with you that in most conditions a 5th bowler is a luxury.

As our specialist batsmen tend not to be able to bowl a few overs - could we get away with just 4 bowlers in Indian conditions?

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Post by Shelsey93 Wed 05 Sep 2012, 09:04

LondonTiger wrote:Shelsey - I agree with you that in most conditions a 5th bowler is a luxury.

As our specialist batsmen tend not to be able to bowl a few overs - could we get away with just 4 bowlers in Indian conditions?

If we are going to play 3 seamers and a spinner, as we should on most Indian pitches, then I think we can.

If we play 2 spinners, as we might need to at some point, then we need to go with 5 bowlers.


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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 05 Sep 2012, 09:15

The Patel issue is an interesting one. Playing him would allow two spinners and three seamers, but he isnt really a wicket taking threat.Picking Panessar and Swann would be much more agressive but leave England short of batting, given they will have a new opener (regardless of who goes there) and one or two inexperienced middle order players (from the contenders only Bairstow has offered any justification for continued selection but thats only based on one innings really) that would leave them looking fragile.
Would they consider Bopara as a serious "option" bowler in India? Filling the old Collingwood role.

I suspect though they will go with Patel, Swann, Anderson, Broad and Finn.

Theres a lot of calls for Morgan against the spinners, but he didnt exactly work out last winter. Learning from history we shouldnt get too carried away by his ODI form when considering him for tests.

"I told you so" England XI predicition for the first test
Cook, Root, Trott, Bell, Bairstow, Prior, Patel, Broad, Swann, Anderson, Finn

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Post by Shelsey93 Wed 05 Sep 2012, 09:27

I personally don't think the Patel experiment worked in Sri Lanka (it was probably worth a try), and probably won't be repeated this year, particularly as Patel's had a pretty average year for Notts.

I expect Swann, Panesar and Tredwell to be the three spinners in the squad and that Swann and Panesar will only be picked in tandem if we encounter a wicket which is particularly likely to turn - on a run of the mill Indian wicket India's batsmen play spin so well that its better to play the three seamers and extra batsman.

My sense is that England will put Trott up to open, Bell at three and then depending on availability/ form Taylor, Bairstow, Bopara and KP will fill up the batting line-up.

As I said a while back I'm tempted to experiment with Taylor at the top. If KP isn't there I want Cook, Trott, Bell, Taylor, Bairstow and Bopara to make up the top six and then its a case of working out which pegs to put in which holes. I think Taylor has the technique, wouldn't be tested too much by India's new ball bowlers (other than the spinners, who he generally plays well) and could always be withdrawn in favour of an experienced specialist taken along as reserve (a Carberry or Compton) if things went terribly wrong. That also allows me to play a middle order of Trott, Bell, Bopara and Bairstow which looks reasonably strong. Of course things would change if KP were picked.

I personally would be disappointed if either Root or Morgan are picked. I think its too early for Root, who would be better served with another winter of Lions and EPP followed by a second heavy-scoring season for Yorks. In Morgan's case he still hasn't delivered the FC runs that he hasn't got for yonks. I wouldn't rule him out as a Test player, but nothing much has changed since the UAE - we all knew he was a fine one-day player, and have learnt nothing knew about him as a FC player. I hope he misses much of the IPL next year to get some Championship runs.

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Post by ShankyCricket Wed 05 Sep 2012, 09:40

Shelsey93 wrote:I personally don't think the Patel experiment worked in Sri Lanka (it was probably worth a try), and probably won't be repeated this year, particularly as Patel's had a pretty average year for Notts.

I expect Swann, Panesar and Tredwell to be the three spinners in the squad and that Swann and Panesar will only be picked in tandem if we encounter a wicket which is particularly likely to turn - on a run of the mill Indian wicket India's batsmen play spin so well that its better to play the three seamers and extra batsman.

My sense is that England will put Trott up to open, Bell at three and then depending on availability/ form Taylor, Bairstow, Bopara and KP will fill up the batting line-up.

As I said a while back I'm tempted to experiment with Taylor at the top. If KP isn't there I want Cook, Trott, Bell, Taylor, Bairstow and Bopara to make up the top six and then its a case of working out which pegs to put in which holes. I think Taylor has the technique, wouldn't be tested too much by India's new ball bowlers (other than the spinners, who he generally plays well) and could always be withdrawn in favour of an experienced specialist taken along as reserve (a Carberry or Compton) if things went terribly wrong. That also allows me to play a middle order of Trott, Bell, Bopara and Bairstow which looks reasonably strong. Of course things would change if KP were picked.

I personally would be disappointed if either Root or Morgan are picked. I think its too early for Root, who would be better served with another winter of Lions and EPP followed by a second heavy-scoring season for Yorks. In Morgan's case he still hasn't delivered the FC runs that he hasn't got for yonks. I wouldn't rule him out as a Test player, but nothing much has changed since the UAE - we all knew he was a fine one-day player, and have learnt nothing knew about him as a FC player. I hope he misses much of the IPL next year to get some Championship runs.
Bopara won't be picked. Its irrational. Given his current form and issues.

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Post by ShankyCricket Wed 05 Sep 2012, 09:44

I'd be seriously annoyed if Ravi is picked ahead of Taylor in the middle order.

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Post by Shelsey93 Wed 05 Sep 2012, 09:45

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
Bopara won't be picked. Its irrational. Given his current form and issues.

Without wanting to go round in circles its quite rational given that he's been due a proper chance for some time, has time to get back into form by then (starting today hopefully....) and the larger than usual number of young batsmen likely to be in the squad.

I expect him to be picked. He may not play if he doesn't do well in the practice games, but it is very difficult to exclude him from the squad, particularly if KP isn't there.

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Post by ShankyCricket Wed 05 Sep 2012, 09:57

Shelsey93 wrote:
shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
Bopara won't be picked. Its irrational. Given his current form and issues.

Without wanting to go round in circles its quite rational given that he's been due a proper chance for some time, has time to get back into form by then (starting today hopefully....) and the larger than usual number of young batsmen likely to be in the squad.

I expect him to be picked. He may not play if he doesn't do well in the practice games, but it is very difficult to exclude him from the squad, particularly if KP isn't there.
Why?

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Post by Shelsey93 Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:10

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Why?

Ravi's Test appearances have come in four clumps:

- His first came way too early when he was undone by Sri Lanka in 2007
- His second set of Tests saw him succeed against WI before being sent back to work on his game after poor returns against Australia. That was in 2009.
- He played a couple of Tests against India at the end of last summer. Every time he came in at 550-4 or something stupid. I think he played two innings - a duck which you couldn't really blame him for, and 40-odd not out. Nothing could be read in to his performance here.
- He was picked as spare batsman in the UAE this year and would have played in SL were it not for the injury which stopped him from bowling and caused England to go with the Patel experiment. He was also injured but would have played against WI. When he did get his go against SA he didn't score many runs, but it was only one Test and I'm sure at least one of the innings offered England hope for a while.

All the while he has performed solidly for Essex - 22 FC 100s and an average approaching 42, and in England one-day colours.

My point, therefore, is basically that he needs a proper chance to put the debate on his Test credentials to bed one way or another. A poor time over a few more Tests and it would be time to move away from him as a Test player. Score some runs and he has a real chance to cement a place for years to come.

Were we to exclude him this winter the debate would only come back next time there is a batting vacancy, as he's sure to do well for Essex and in ODIs in the future. Any assessment of him as a Test player is based largely on what happened three years ago, which itself came off the back of three promising hundreds. I can't see how anything can be read into the last three Tests (4 innings) that he has played.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:10

Hi Shanky - I don't know if you've seen it yet but I posted last night on the ''England v South Africa 4th ODI'' thread about my doubts over Bopara. We seem to agree even more than I realised then.


Last edited by guildfordbat on Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:14; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:11

Shelsey...do you onestly see Taylor, who has failed so far in as a middle order batsman in tests and ODIs, to be a long term option as a test opener? I know hes only played 3 innings but an average of 16 from those is as bad as tendulkars was and look how he worked out (oh ok ,....)

But do you think theres much value in selecting someone purely for this series? Hes not realistically ever going to be a long term opener for England, possibly a 3 but at this point hes far from demanding a place in the side at all.

Why not just select an actual opener, as radical as that is.

One or two of Bopara Taylor Morgan and Bairstow will have to be left home, if KP does come back then 2/3 of them. Bairstows the only one whos looked worth a place in test side. Boparas the only one who offers a fill in bowler option, so he does have a reasonable chance of touring. I actually think theres every chance that Taylor wont even go. England have hardly fallen over themselves to select him when theyve had opportunities over the last couple of years, and when they have hes let them down.

As for Patel in Sri Lanka Id disagree. He was effective,and very economical. Swann took the wickets, he helped build the pressure. he isnt an attacking bowler though, Pannesar is in theory a more aggressive option but when they did play all three it was Monty whos bowling was surplus ..neither being cheap nor taking wickets.
Tredwell is his competition for a tour spot , but he would be in as cover for Swann rather than as a genuine starting option..two orthodox right arm spinners isnt going to ask many questions of India.

Theres lots of options for this series thats for sure.

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Post by skyeman Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:14

I would rather play the Worcestershire eleven in India than have one Bopara in the Test team. That is how much confidence i have in him as a Test player.

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Post by Shelsey93 Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:16

Well, if Taylor was given a chance to open in India and did well I see no reason why he couldn't adapt to that role long term.

In all seriousness he hasn't been picked in the past not because England don't fancy him but more because the openings have tended to come in the wrong places. Now we have openings all over the shop I think he should really play.

Picking an opener is, in theory, the best way to go. But I'd rather have the player who got a chance in the summer (and did nothing too bad) in the team rather than another newbie.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:21

skyeman wrote:I would rather play the Worcestershire eleven in India than have one Bopara in the Test team. That is how much confidence i have in him as a Test player.

laughing laughing

And Vikram Solanki, Surrey's signing for 2013, can't even get in the Worcs eleven. Rather worrying ....

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Post by skyeman Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:29

guildfordbat wrote:
skyeman wrote:I would rather play the Worcestershire eleven in India than have one Bopara in the Test team. That is how much confidence i have in him as a Test player.

laughing laughing

And Vikram Solanki, Surrey's signing for 2013, can't even get in the Worcs eleven. Rather worrying ....

Indeed it is.

Who is he replacing? Yourself or the Corporal. Very Happy

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:37

skyeman wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
skyeman wrote:I would rather play the Worcestershire eleven in India than have one Bopara in the Test team. That is how much confidence i have in him as a Test player.

laughing laughing

And Vikram Solanki, Surrey's signing for 2013, can't even get in the Worcs eleven. Rather worrying ....

Indeed it is.

Who is he replacing? Yourself or the Corporal. Very Happy

I'm sure the Corporal would regard that as classified information which cannot be released at this time. Wink


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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:38

Shelsey93 wrote: But I'd rather have the player who got a chance in the summer (and did nothing too bad) in the team rather than another newbie.

Come on since when has averaging 16 been "nothing too bad" ...its less than half of what Bopara last 3 test innings average
I wouldnt rule him out on that short basis but heaping more pressure on him and expecting him to adapt his technique and mindset to a new role just seems a bit bonkers. He might be able to get away with it in India but that would not make him the sort of opener required for English conditions where the long term candidate will be required to play most of his tests.
Id see a stronger argument for Trott opening (move Bell up to 3) than Taylor if root is considered too inexperienced (not unreasonable) .. but leaving him out for someone who isnt an opener and isnt experienced themselves and who has struggled in internationals so far I just dont get.

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Post by ShankyCricket Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:40

Shelsey93 wrote:
shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Why?

Ravi's Test appearances have come in four clumps:

- His first came way too early when he was undone by Sri Lanka in 2007
- His second set of Tests saw him succeed against WI before being sent back to work on his game after poor returns against Australia. That was in 2009.
- He played a couple of Tests against India at the end of last summer. Every time he came in at 550-4 or something stupid. I think he played two innings - a duck which you couldn't really blame him for, and 40-odd not out. Nothing could be read in to his performance here.
- He was picked as spare batsman in the UAE this year and would have played in SL were it not for the injury which stopped him from bowling and caused England to go with the Patel experiment. He was also injured but would have played against WI. When he did get his go against SA he didn't score many runs, but it was only one Test and I'm sure at least one of the innings offered England hope for a while.

All the while he has performed solidly for Essex - 22 FC 100s and an average approaching 42, and in England one-day colours.

My point, therefore, is basically that he needs a proper chance to put the debate on his Test credentials to bed one way or another. A poor time over a few more Tests and it would be time to move away from him as a Test player. Score some runs and he has a real chance to cement a place for years to come.

Were we to exclude him this winter the debate would only come back next time there is a batting vacancy, as he's sure to do well for Essex and in ODIs in the future. Any assessment of him as a Test player is based largely on what happened three years ago, which itself came off the back of three promising hundreds. I can't see how anything can be read into the last three Tests (4 innings) that he has played.

Thats the point. His performances for Essex since his dropping have been nothing more than "solid". In fact, unless I am horribly mistaken, his FC average since being dropped in 2009 is marginally lower than what it was previously. So how exactly has he "improved"? How do you recall a player who hasn't exactly shown any improvement at FC level since the time he was dropped from the Test side?

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Post by Shelsey93 Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:43

To respond to Peter, I think Taylor is much stronger mentally than a few of the other younger players. I'd back him to adapt as he's a fine player.


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Post by ShankyCricket Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:52

I am waiting for a response Smile

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