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A lost generation

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funnyExiledScot
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A lost generation Empty A lost generation

Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:27 am

From the NZ Herald:

All Blacks: Nearly men must reassess

By Gregor Paul

New Zealand is developing a lost generation. The 20-somethings who have been around, pushed close to test selection in the past, or even won a few caps, have been left out in the cold by All Black coach Steve Hansen.

He's going to skip those players and rely on the vastly experienced senior core for the present, while developing the super-young for the future. Sam Cane, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, TJ Perenara, Brad Shields, Luke Whitelock and Ben Tameifuna will be the next wave of All Blacks, leaving a handful of still moderately young players to deliberate their futures.

There are now most definitely 'haves' and 'have-nots' in the New Zealand professional scene. The top echelon are enjoying improved pay deals and flexible contracts. The emerging generation already in the All Black frame will be given time to develop and then assume the same privileges.

But, for the mid-tier, that has tipped the balance in favour of the offshore market. The inclination of some mid-tier players will be to hang around to see if they can prove the selectors wrong. Yet the smart thing for many would be to accept their fate, cash in while they can and possibly even build rewarding test careers with other nations.

In previous years, the likes of Robbie Fruean, Sean Maitland, Andre Taylor, Tanerau Latimer, Rudi Wulf, Matt Todd and Luke Braid would have entered the ITM Cup with genuine hope of claiming places in the All Blacks end-of-year tour squad.

If injury hadn't struck, Taylor would have been an outside chance and there might still be hope for Fruean. But the rest will require a raft of injuries or a radical change of thinking from the selectors to force their way in.

The 28 currently in the Rugby Championship squad are, barring injury, fancied to be retained. Adam Thomson is a potential doubt as he may be looking overseas but he's probably the only one.

Hansen likes the group he has - there is cover across the field and a sense they are on their way towards an imposing and commanding period. Fruean knows he's a long shot at best. He hasn't dropped off the radar, yet it must be ominous that the selectors believe that Ben Smith could be a test centre - more so after he enjoyed a convincing 25 minutes off the bench last week.

"Ben is a versatile and skilful player," says backs coach Ian Foster. "He has played fullback, second five and even first five for his club. He is very similar in make-up to Conrad Smith in that he uses his footwork well and we have seen how effective that can be."

So there is Conrad Smith, Ben Smith, Tamati Ellison and Richard Kahui (when he's fit) - all ahead of Fruean. Even if he does win a few caps this year, what's his longer-term future?

Samoa tried hard to lure him before the World Cup and he might soon have to conclude that at 24, he doesn't want to join the legion of Samoan-qualified players who later regretted they gave their eligibility away to New Zealand. Kevin Senio is a classic example - a 20-minute appearance off the bench for New Zealand in 2005 cost him the chance to play at two World Cups with Samoa.

Maitland turned down Scotland in 2010 - deciding to commit for two more years to chase his All Black dream. Presumably he's realised that an already slim chance is now minuscule and that, by the end of next year, he could shift overseas, double his pay and play international rugby.


This is an increasingly common path for New Zealand's lost generation. Thomas Waldrom has gone from a Crusaders irregular to England regular - loved at Leicester and likely to play a key role at the next World Cup. Daniel Bowden, whose grip on Super Rugby was tenuous, will also soon be an England regular and it wouldn't be a surprise if the long-term replacement for Ireland's Brian O'Driscoll is former Blues centre Jared Payne.

For mid-tier New Zealanders not dual-qualified, the three-year residency rule is there to be exploited. That requires players to commit offshore younger but it should be apparent that Hansen already has a clear vision of who he wants.

Those 20-somethings not in the frame now are taking a huge gamble if they think they will be by 2015.

The part that caught my eye was obviously the Maitland comments - hope that it's true, he would be a terrific asset for Scotland Braveheart

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:40 am

The lesson is all there for the NZRFU to draw from. Take this lost generation on tour this autumn, give them a cap and then dump them. Whistle

Sad but true. You want to play your best squad as much as possible when the expectation is to win every game. You need to blood some younger players but it's simply not plausible to blood every player of talent in NZ. Even people who are in the squad like Hosea Gear must feel their place is in jeopardy. That's what competition breeds.

Cast offs like Flutey have shown what they can do at the highest level. I'm sure Scotland would love to explore Fruean's ancestry in depth as they would die for a centre with his attacking potential. But realistically who is going to oust Conrad Smith? Only a tiny amount make the step up to AB rugby. It is sad to see all that talent head overseas as they help bring up the younger players but truth be told you can't really blame them for cashing in their rugby gifts.

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Post by gowales Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:58 am

Maybe NZ should make the U20 programme their second team Laugh

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Post by gowales Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:01 am

I can't see Fruean playing for Samoa until 2014 to be honest. NZ will probably cap him before then unless he moves away.

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Post by Dontheman Tue 04 Sep 2012, 8:24 pm

gowales wrote:Maybe NZ should make the U20 programme their second team Laugh
Aren't the NZ JWC U20 players tied anyway now because of the Shingler ruling?

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 04 Sep 2012, 8:30 pm

Oh Jeebus, not that again! I think we're safe until NZ formerly declare their U20s as their second side! Erm

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Post by Geordie Tue 04 Sep 2012, 8:51 pm

Funny how people cant slate England enough for playing foreigners...(when most England fans dont want them) yet they would welcome open armed a player whos "dream is to play for NZ" but would settle for decent pay representing Scotland!... furious

We need to stop these playersd just moving and playing for whoever they want....and i include England in that.



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Post by LondonTiger Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:21 pm

This bit caught my eye:

This is an increasingly common path for New Zealand's lost generation. Thomas Waldrom has gone from a Crusaders irregular to England regular - loved at Leicester and likely to play a key role at the next World Cup. Daniel Bowden, whose grip on Super Rugby was tenuous, will also soon be an England regular and it wouldn't be a surprise if the long-term replacement for Ireland's Brian O'Driscoll is former Blues centre Jared Payne.



In what way is Waldrom, with 2 caps, an England regular? Dan Bowden needs to play for Leicester, while Jared Payne is the long term replacement for BOD?


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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:26 pm

LondonTiger wrote:This bit caught my eye:

This is an increasingly common path for New Zealand's lost generation. Thomas Waldrom has gone from a Crusaders irregular to England regular - loved at Leicester and likely to play a key role at the next World Cup. Daniel Bowden, whose grip on Super Rugby was tenuous, will also soon be an England regular and it wouldn't be a surprise if the long-term replacement for Ireland's Brian O'Driscoll is former Blues centre Jared Payne.



In what way is Waldrom, with 2 caps, an England regular? Dan Bowden needs to play for Leicester, while Jared Payne is the long term replacement for BOD?


I think that was Gregor Paul having a wee Stephen Jones/Chris Rattue moment. He knows almost no-one reading in NZ will twig, and he might just cheese off some NH readers Wink

I read the article a few days back and opted not to repost here because of that line Whistle
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Post by aucklandlaurie Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:56 pm

LondonTiger wrote:This bit caught my eye:

This is an increasingly common path for New Zealand's lost generation. Thomas Waldrom has gone from a Crusaders irregular to England regular - loved at Leicester and likely to play a key role at the next World Cup. Daniel Bowden, whose grip on Super Rugby was tenuous, will also soon be an England regular and it wouldn't be a surprise if the long-term replacement for Ireland's Brian O'Driscoll is former Blues centre Jared Payne.



In what way is Waldrom, with 2 caps, an England regular? Dan Bowden needs to play for Leicester, while Jared Payne is the long term replacement for BOD?




In what way has waldrom got two caps? or am I missing something.

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Post by IanBru Wed 05 Sep 2012, 12:32 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Funny how people cant slate England enough for playing foreigners...(when most England fans dont want them) yet they would welcome open armed a player whos "dream is to play for NZ" but would settle for decent pay representing Scotland!... furious
We need to stop these playersd just moving and playing for whoever they want....and i include England in that.

Good point, except that it doesn't really apply to Maitland, who is blessed with a Scottish father. It's not like he once ate a bit of shortbread and has decided he's "like, ummm... totally Scotch".

It's the nature of the great Scottish diaspora - we get around.
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Post by gowales Wed 05 Sep 2012, 7:48 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:This bit caught my eye:

This is an increasingly common path for New Zealand's lost generation. Thomas Waldrom has gone from a Crusaders irregular to England regular - loved at Leicester and likely to play a key role at the next World Cup. Daniel Bowden, whose grip on Super Rugby was tenuous, will also soon be an England regular and it wouldn't be a surprise if the long-term replacement for Ireland's Brian O'Driscoll is former Blues centre Jared Payne.



In what way is Waldrom, with 2 caps, an England regular? Dan Bowden needs to play for Leicester, while Jared Payne is the long term replacement for BOD?




In what way has waldrom got two caps? or am I missing something.

We've already discussed this on another thread Laurie!
http://www.rfu.com/squadsandplayers/englandelite/thomaswaldrom

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 05 Sep 2012, 8:04 am

IanBru wrote:Good point, except that it doesn't really apply to Maitland, who is blessed with a Scottish father. It's not like he once ate a bit of shortbread and has decided he's "like, ummm... totally Scotch".

It's the nature of the great Scottish diaspora - we get around.

Or sometimes, as in the case of Dave Hilton's grandad, you just get the blame Wink

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 05 Sep 2012, 9:28 am

LondonTiger wrote:
IanBru wrote:Good point, except that it doesn't really apply to Maitland, who is blessed with a Scottish father. It's not like he once ate a bit of shortbread and has decided he's "like, ummm... totally Scotch".

It's the nature of the great Scottish diaspora - we get around.

Or sometimes, as in the case of Dave Hilton's grandad, you just get the blame Wink
Oh dear, poor Dave, he was mortified when he found out the truth!

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Post by Dontheman Wed 05 Sep 2012, 11:19 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Oh Jeebus, not that again! I think we're safe until NZ formerly declare their U20s as their second side! Erm
Don't get you there Aslong. I'm saying that NZ u20s having represented their country (and won 3/4) in the IRB s second most prestigious world wide tournament SHOULD be tied to NZ. I do not want a flood of SH failed internationals turning up and playing for Wales after 3 years residency. So you can bemoan losing Shingler from Scotland but what about the bigger picture. Has the IRB missed something here?

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Post by Geordie Wed 05 Sep 2012, 11:58 am

IanBru wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Funny how people cant slate England enough for playing foreigners...(when most England fans dont want them) yet they would welcome open armed a player whos "dream is to play for NZ" but would settle for decent pay representing Scotland!... furious
We need to stop these playersd just moving and playing for whoever they want....and i include England in that.

Good point, except that it doesn't really apply to Maitland, who is blessed with a Scottish father. It's not like he once ate a bit of shortbread and has decided he's "like, ummm... totally Scotch".

It's the nature of the great Scottish diaspora - we get around.

Ok Parental qualificstion is different i guess...but you get my point in general dont you mate?

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Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 05 Sep 2012, 1:32 pm

Massively keen on Maitland playing for Scotland. With Maitland and Visser on the wings, and young Hogg at XV, we may actually score more than one try per calendar year....

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 05 Sep 2012, 5:09 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Massively keen on Maitland playing for Scotland. With Maitland and Visser on the wings, and young Hogg at XV, we may actually score more than one try per calendar year....

Ha the failure to score tries been the fault of wingers unable to finish, or centres unable to give a pass?

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 05 Sep 2012, 7:28 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Massively keen on Maitland playing for Scotland. With Maitland and Visser on the wings, and young Hogg at XV, we may actually score more than one try per calendar year....

Ha the failure to score tries been the fault of wingers unable to finish, or centres unable to give a pass?
I wouldn't stop there, LT - or 10's unable to distribute the ball, and 15's unable to come into the line, etc... - we could be at this all night!

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Post by Majestic83 Thu 06 Sep 2012, 11:54 am

IanBru wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Funny how people cant slate England enough for playing foreigners...(when most England fans dont want them) yet they would welcome open armed a player whos "dream is to play for NZ" but would settle for decent pay representing Scotland!... furious
We need to stop these playersd just moving and playing for whoever they want....and i include England in that.

Good point, except that it doesn't really apply to Maitland, who is blessed with a Scottish father. It's not like he once ate a bit of shortbread and has decided he's "like, ummm... totally Scotch".

It's the nature of the great Scottish diaspora - we get around.

Yeah I think the difference with that is obviously Maitlands father is Scottish and Maitland has stated quite a few times previously in interviews that he is proud of his scottish heritage where as England have brought a lot of players into the team through residancy grounds.

It would be brilliant if Maitland comes over to play for Scotland as he must be one of the most talented wingers in the super xv and would offer something special.


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Post by nickj Thu 06 Sep 2012, 12:23 pm

Well spotted ASBO. Fingers Crossed

I really hope Mr Maitland reads the Herald.

I'd also dearly love Robbie Robinson to consider a trip to his parental home.

I'm not suggesting we flood our team with Kilted Kiwis but are there any more names we can add to Sean Lineen's to do list?

https://www.606v2.com/t27967-scottish-players-plying-their-trade-outside-of-scotland-at-the-professional-level


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Post by Majestic83 Thu 06 Sep 2012, 12:38 pm

for me the other great additions who are scots qualified through parents or grand parents would be Robbie Robinson who is in brilliant form but still far down the pecking order with the all blacks, won the super xv title with the chiefs playing at full back but has stated his favoured position is 10 which he is playing at for Southland in the ITM cup at the moment, he can also play 12 as well. 10 and 12 obviously being problem positions for us so would be a great aquisition.

The other 2 i would like to see Scotland go after are the 2 waratahs scrum halves, Brendan McKibbin and Grayson Hart. Both have looked pretty good this season and are both fairly young. For once Scotland doesn't have a huge amount of talent coming through at 9 and blair and cusiter probably won't be around for much longer.

Would be typical for scotland to finally unearth some great stand offs and forget to develop some great quality 9s to go with it.

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Post by IanBru Thu 06 Sep 2012, 7:25 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
IanBru wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Funny how people cant slate England enough for playing foreigners...(when most England fans dont want them) yet they would welcome open armed a player whos "dream is to play for NZ" but would settle for decent pay representing Scotland!... furious
We need to stop these playersd just moving and playing for whoever they want....and i include England in that.

Good point, except that it doesn't really apply to Maitland, who is blessed with a Scottish father. It's not like he once ate a bit of shortbread and has decided he's "like, ummm... totally Scotch".

It's the nature of the great Scottish diaspora - we get around.

Ok Parental qualificstion is different i guess...but you get my point in general dont you mate?

Yeah, I definitely get your point, and I agree completely - I'm just in a belligerent mood this time of year!
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Post by emack2 Fri 07 Sep 2012, 12:22 am

This is pretty much a non-article "A lost generation" to make a few comments as follows.New Zealand has arguably the greatest depth of players of any country in the world.THE utility or futility badge means players having to move from there preferred positions to be considered. Before Colin Slades injury 2011AllBlacks choices were Carter,Slade,Crudon in that order.ALL the senior 10/12`s left the country Berquist,Delany,Brett,McAlister,Donald all went abroad only Berquist of those was`nt capped.The Waldron brothers were never serious contenders for AllBlack honours.For half a decade 7 and 10 was McCaw and Carter and still is.Most of the current squad are 28 or over and many won`t see 2015 RWC.There are many contenders for 9,10,12,15 bu few at 1,2,3,4.and 5 or even 6 ansd 8.The law has always been you keep the shirt until someone better comes along.In some cases the replacement is a shooting star and is not as good as the player he replaced Gear/Rocokoko,McAlister /Mauger or has already decided to move abroad.Or his face does`nt fit with the new coaches like Chris Jack and Adam Thomson or ChristianCullan/Andrew Merthens/Jerry Collins/Chris Masoe./Luaki.Or constantly injured like Toeva or Richard Kahui,most of these are already capped .Allblacks are worth more money than Super 15 players.When you have 10 players for 2 spots the surplus will follow the money .Play for the wrong franchise and you will be short of gametime Crusaders at 10 or 7 for example.

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Post by blackcanelion Fri 07 Sep 2012, 1:37 am

I think the lost generation is an apt term. but probably even more appropriate for the wider impact on rugby of, not just European and janese rugby, but Australian rugby and rugby league.

We all know of the drain of top coaches (and lesser knowns) to European and Japanese rugby clubs. I think more insidious is the impact of Australian clubs and provinces of 2nd/3rd string players and up and coming players. I know that some Sydney clubs have been able to bring in kiwis. When this is added to the rest of the losses overseas, and the hiring by small international unions (e.g. our club lost Anoke Afeaki to a coaching job in Singapore mid season (good on him for taking it), he was also our development officer).

On top of that we have the reemergence of rugby league. The set up of the bartercard ciup from 2002-2007 impacted on Auckland club rugby, and more recently league scouts are aggressively targeting kids at school. The schools competition is expanding. We know see pure union players signing contracts. I don't think it's a coincidence that there are Auckland players in the AB's and that the Blues are struggling. JK has identified it as a key issue for the blues franchise. The NRL has just signed a major new TV rights deal and salaries are more than competitive with union options as an junior player. You can see the impact on the under 20. fo4r instance 1/2 of last years schoolboy backlineare playing league, and there are a number of players below that that are in the same position.

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Post by nickj Tue 11 Sep 2012, 11:43 am

Unfortunately it doesnt look like McKibbin or Hart will be heading over any time soon. The Tahs have released Pretorius.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3824_8069493,00.html


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