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Official: Khan fires Roach.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 8:39 am

Amir Khan annouced on his twitter page last night that he has official parted company with Freddie Roach, quoted as saying:

"Officially iv left freddie roach. Just spoke to his and had a good professional chat and maybe in the future we work together. Freddie understood why I'm looking at other trainers and wished me all the best for the future. Who do. My followers think I should go with?"


Roach told ESPN: 'He said, 'I know you're busy with your other fighters and I'm going to go in a different direction'. 'He said, 'No hard feelings, maybe we'll get back together someday'. He was being nice. I wished him luck. I've been fired before.'


So the annoucment of his new trainer will be today, I personally would like to see him go to Steward however if he wants to be number one it is unlikely he'll go to the guy training the number one heavyweight in the world at the moment. Also wonder how long it is before Freddie is calling for a fight between Amir and Manny now.
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Post by Sugar Boy Sweetie on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 8:53 am

I've said I think steward would be best for him - he works well with taller fighters, got guys like Lewis & Wlad - who had similar attributes & flaws to khan - to improve their game by fighting upright with a higher guard and working behind a disciplined jab. Khan has already shown to some extent he can do this with his fughts against kotelnik & paulie early on under Roach - who knows why that philosophy was thrown away. Was it due to roach being pre-occupied with other fighters? Or khans determination to prove himself as a 'warrior'?

We know Freddie is an offensive coach first & foremost, but are we to believe he didn't work on defence at all with khan - surely that was the reason khan went to him in the first place post Prescott. I'm of the opinion that defence is largely a natural instinct - you either have that instinct or you don't, and Khan doesn't. The fundamentals of defensive boxing can be taught to anyone, but in the heat of battle you have to have the instinct to use them - khan forgets it and fights fire with fire, doesn't cover up, buy time etc. and I feel that even if someone like steward taught him to fight almost robotically he would revert to type under pressure as he's just not a clever fighter (unfortunately).

Any new coach will also need to do a lot of work on his inside game as this is another area where he clearly struggles - his reaction to pressure his poor. If he's using his speed to throw punches from mid range he's great, but if things start going against him he reacts poorly, moves back in straight lines, fights fire with fire leaving himself open despite having a weak chin/temple.

I wish him luck, but I feel he has to many inherent flaws to put a consistent enough run together at world level to get anywhere near the top of the p4p tree - you feel the next chicken dance is only a punch away at any given time.
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Post by TheMackemMawler on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 9:38 am

I can sort of understand why Steward's name gets mentioned, but isn't one of the reasons Khan left Roach that he wanted more attention (be top boy?).

Steward would be better for his defensive repatoire but Steward has Wlad and Cotto who Khan would have to play second fiddle to. Ok those guys might not have too much longer in the game but is Khan willing to wait to become number one for that long? I don't think so, after all, Manny hasn't got too much longer in the game either.

More over, if Steward still trains Gamboa (does he????) then won't Gamboa be the one who steps up to become the main man?

If Khan puts his pride issues aside and becomes less high maintenance then he won't get better tech sparring than Yuriorkis.



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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 9:56 am

Wish he wouldn't have made a big song and dance about it!

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Post by jimdig on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 11:00 am

Freddie seemed to have really brought khan on. His conditioning has been excellent. But he had pleatued over the last few fights. I'm not sure about steward being a match for khan. Andy lee is a boxer who should be fighting at range, but who gets caught in tear ups and getting smashed, Vera being a prime example, and he's been with steward for ever. I fan see the appeal in khan getting a good British trainer and being his number 1.

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Post by jimdig on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 12:32 pm

Also I wouoldn't be so sure that the dog house of the kronk gym would be the best enviroment for Amir. He needs an enviroment that fosters and nutures his speed and skill, not that encourages tear ups. VK seems the exception to the Kronk rule, Cotto to an extent too, but I'd imagine the bigger names don't frequent the Kronk gym, they are more likely to get manny to travel to their camps. If Amir can broker a deal like that then maybe they'd be a fit.
But Amir is a superstar, and I don't think that necessarily means he needs a superstar trainer. McCraken would be my choice for him, I think it'd also be good for British boxing to give a skilled british trainer that kind of profile, I also think he's the type of guy that could encourage Amir to make the adjustments he needs to fight to his strengths.

Although I don't like Ariza, I think it could be shrud business to keep him on for conditioning purposes, as that side of Amir seems to be perfect since moving from lightweight to light welter, and with a move to welter on the cards, Ariza could be a crucial part to the jigsaw. Manny's weightjumping exploits speak for themselves, maintaining speed will be critical to any future Khan success at higher weights, and Ariza seems to be the conditioning coach with the best track record in that regard.

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Post by jimdig on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 1:08 pm

From Espn this morning, it looks like Virgil Hunter will be the favourite. Based on ward, and his trainer for the year status seems to make him the superstar trainer of the moment. Enzo Calzaghe had that status at one point, Enzo had 3 world champions in his stable at that point.

Is Ward and exceptional talent, or Hunter an exceptional trainer? Those two things are obviously not mutually exclusive. Khan would again be playing second fiddle again. I'm sticking with McCraken, although as Khan held audtions in New York, we can assume it'll be another American based high profile trainer.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 1:20 pm

Although I entirely agree with you, Jimdig, that McCracken would be an ideal trainer for Khan from the technical and mental stand-points, I can't see that it's an even vaguely practical notion.

Two reasons for this; firstly, there is the fact that McCracken's major professional responsibility is Froch, with whom Khan has been consistently at odds over the past few years. Secondly, we have McCracken's duties with the superb GB amateur programme, which will take up plenty of his time. Both factors will not square with Khan's apparent desire to be a trainer's major, indeed only, project.

I suspect that we are looking at someone with a past track record of training the odd high profile name, but no-one of any great note currently in his stable. That may be an American, a Brit or anyone else, but I also suspect that Khan's criteria will rule out most of the top names. Not for the first time, I feel that young Amir is painting himself into a corner here.

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Post by Rodney on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 1:48 pm

Seems a silly decision to fire Roach, seems as though team Khan always need a scapegoat when things go wrong, Prescott it was the Cuban trainer, Peterson it was the man in the hat and Garcia its Roach for not giving 100 percent focus.

Which top flight trainer especially state side is going to give Khan top billing ? Khan had come on leaps and bounds with Freddie and to fire him is astonishing if you ask me, maybes Khan needs to have a good look at himself in the mirror and take responsibility. No trainer is going to fix the obvious flaw in his game.

Cheers. Rodders
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Post by Redrage on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 2:18 pm

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote: I feel that even if someone like steward taught him to fight almost robotically he would revert to type under pressure as he's just not a clever fighter (unfortunately).

Very true... and bordering on an understatement. Khan lives in Disneyland, one truly deluded young man that has a self image that is so far from reality it you almost feel sad for him.

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Post by Daz on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 2:23 pm

His new trainer is Virgil Hunter - same trainer as Andre Ward. Not a bad choice at all IMO. I was surprised at this initially as I thought Manny Steward would be perfect for Khan. But the more I think about it, Hunter would be ideal.

Plus a but of humility and quiet confidence from Ward might rub off on Khan!

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 2:42 pm

Daz, thanks for the confirmation. The appointment begs a couple of questions. Has Khan dropped his apparent insistence that his trainer should focus on him to the exclusion of virtually anyone else? If so, does this mean that his stated reason for leaving Roach is a smokescreen, concealing a deeper sort of dissatisfaction? Could it be that this is the latest step in Khan's growing realisation that defence is not an optional part of a top fighter's armoury?

Cuban trainer to Roach was a transition that provided some improvement in Khan's defensive game, although not, as Garcia showed, quite enough. Perhaps the shift to Hunter will help in this regard. Why, though, if this theory be true, can't Khan just say so and proceed on this basis?

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Post by Daz on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 2:59 pm

No probs Captain. Ward isnt the most active of fighters so perhaps they can 'rotate' the training to suit this. I believe Hunter has 1 or maybe 2 other fighters so a very small but focused camp.

Also Khan's next opponent is Lucas Mattysse. A very tough come back fight indeed! Stong, come forward relentless puncher. Unusual choice of opposition considering Khan's current position. Thought he would need a confidence builder but fair play to him.

It does look like Khan has finally stumbled across the the defence isnt optional as you say Captain. He couldnt continue as he was otherwise he will be knocked down on a regular basis. Although Khan hasnt really gone about this new appointment in the right way - I believe he has made the correct decision.


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Post by Rodney on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:00 pm

Cheers Daz for the confirmation, I agree Captain it's a questionable appointment and one what makes me feel is Virgil Hunter just flavour of the month since Ward's surge of brilliance.

Like I've mentioned previously Khans biggest weakness unfortunately something Blackburn,Arcel,Futch,Dundee among others cant improve on.

As a sidenote I've heard Khan choose Humberto Soto as his comeback opponent but was rejected by HBO.

Cheers

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Post by Rodney on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:02 pm

Really Daz, Mattysse ? that does surprise me, fair play to Khan for that one, I can't see past Mattysse unfortunately, don't think Khan has the firepower or overall ring smart to keep out of harms way.

Cheers. Rodders
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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:07 pm

Very interesting. I applaud the choice of Mattysse as Khan's next opponent, however his selection was finally settled. It makes sense from at least two angles. The first is that getting straight back on the bike is always a good idea. An opponent like Soto would be unlikely to tell Khan (or nitpickers like us!) whether he was improving those areas in which he has been hitherto deficient. There is also the fact that a win over Mattysse would keep Khan right at the top of the mix when it comes to big fight consideration.

If Lucas throws another spanner in the works, though, Amir won't have many training options left open to him. Perhaps he can persuade Pernell Whitaker to take him on as his sole project.

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Post by Daz on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:09 pm

Rodney wrote:Really Daz, Mattysse ? that does surprise me, fair play to Khan for that one, I can't see past Mattysse unfortunately, don't think Khan has the firepower or overall ring smart to keep out of harms way.

Cheers. Rodders

I agree Rodders - Mattysse will stick to Khan like glue. Very very surprised at this also. Khan has jumped into the worst possible opponent for himself especially considering he is at a pivotal transition in his career. Bit of a head scratcher but cant take anything away from Khan - he has balls. Unless the TV people demanded a top match or something along these lines?

Khan should fight someone less dangerous to test out the new training methods strategies. He has just jumped straight back into the fire here.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:12 pm

Daz where you getting this info? Nothing from SS on twitter or their iPhone app.
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Post by Rodney on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:15 pm

I agree Daz seems Mattysse is riding on the crest of a wave at the moment, and from the few times I've seen him he looks a more devastating and better version of Maidana who we know gave Khan all sorts of bother, as Captain mentioned its good to see Khan back on the bike and I'll applaud him, great fight but by an almighty risky one.

Cheers

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Post by Daz on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:17 pm

Khan was in sunny Preston on Thursday Hampo. Had the privilege of speaking with him for quite a while.

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Post by Daz on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:19 pm

Rodney wrote:I agree Daz seems Mattysse is riding on the crest of a wave at the moment, and from the few times I've seen him he looks a more devastating and better version of Maidana who we know gave Khan all sorts of bother, as Captain mentioned its good to see Khan back on the bike and I'll applaud him, great fight but by an almighty risky one.

Cheers

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So true. Can you imagine he lost? He would have nowhere to go. Doesnt bear thinking about.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:20 pm

I think captain that he might have realised that his chin will let him down and though Roach's defensive style helps him, the likely scenario is that once he steps up against a banger who has more strings to his bow he'll be found wanting in the department again. Perhaps he is hoping to take it almost out of the equation like ward who takes the sting out of the punches he takes and limits being hit in the first place.

I also think he resents being carted off to the phillipines everytime his fight coincides with Manny's and then back to wherever - I believe he started training in america - continued in the phillipines and came to america in one training camp - although the cancelled fight had a part to play in it as it extended his camp length. I think Manny insists on being trained in his home country. Thus far every opponent has come to ward and Khan might enjoy that stability where he only travels nearer to the fight

I do remember though that Manny's camp requested that he stop sparring with Khan around october last year and he might feel that he isnt getting much out of the camp any more.

Understandable reasons but Khan has much to be grateful for which might account for why he has been so reticent to shoot his gob off as much as usual. Its an interesting choice - I had not considered it myself and like daz - i like the choice though i'm not sure how this will play out. I wonder if this will be the beginning on the journey to where he believes his destiny to lie or the act of a desperate man with too much courage and not enough brains.


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Post by TheMackemMawler on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:21 pm

Virgil Hunter eh?

It's interesting that he will have two religious fundamentalists with opposing views in the same camp... Run
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Post by TheMackemMawler on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:23 pm

Sparring sessions wil be Allah vs God by proxy!
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Post by jimdig on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:23 pm

Mattysse? Incredible, the Hunter appointment seems to have been sign posted. I can only think that HBO must have had a hand in the Mattysse appointment, not really a hard fight to sell. Props to Khan though, he's been beaten 3 times now, 2 in a row, and yet he's willing to take on his most difficult challenge yet, it really has the makings of another KO loss, no matter who his trainer is. Khan certainly is eager to stay relevent.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:53 pm

Entirely plausible scenario, Shah, and very cogently argued, as ever. If he does beat Mattysse, Khan will entirely deserve all the benefits that are likely to flow from such a victory.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 3:59 pm

Fighters tend to change trainers later on in their career particularly on a downward spiral...

Perhaps because they feel things are getting stale...

Not sure this decision will change anything.....Khan comes under pressure Khan leaves himself wide open and slugs....

Holyfield never got rid of this habit..........so I doubt there is any hope for the inferior Khan..

For me though he has to start avenging losses.......either Petersen or the other guy..

Because it would be hard to take him serious as a top fighter If he doesn't .....

Not sure any trainer fixes the kid.......shame because he has the physical gifts..

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Post by TheMackemMawler on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 4:30 pm

I think avenging losses would be a good place to start Truss. It would be a bonafide method of regaining credibility, something, I believe, that would allow punters to buy back into the Amir Khan product.

He should do it in order with the next three fights being Prescott, Peterson, and Garcia. What better way to wipe the slate clean?
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 5:43 pm

Good to see you back captain.

Hope you are well.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 5:44 pm

Thank you ONETWO, I'm fine. Reinvigorated, having rediscovered my zest for the game, I should say.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 5:49 pm

Good to hear but how you rediscovered zest for the game after the shoddy year we have had in boxing amazes me.

Khan should go with Richards imo.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 6:06 pm

Partly thanks to these boards, partly due to the thought that after the whole nauseating Haye-Chisora miasma, we'd actually reached rock bottom and the only way was up. I'm pleased to say that I can see a fair few green shoots kicking around that renew my enthusiasm for a sport that, after all, I've loved since I was nearly five years old (40 years in total).

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Post by bellchees on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 6:24 pm

I think a rematch with Prescott would have been a good comeback fight, it should be an easy sell and an easy win really. Peterson does not need avenging as he shouldn't be let in a ring again. I can see a Garcia rematch coming somewhere down the line if both can get a couple of victories in the next 12-18 months.

Also if it's true and Matthysse is the next opponent then I'm very worried for Amir. The only outcome I see there is a KO win for Matthysse.

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Post by hogey on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 6:56 pm

Pretty average fighter coming off of 2 losses to other average fighters, he isn't the superstar he thinks he is and no top trainers will put better fighters on the back burner to concentrate on this deluded young man. He would be better keeping Roach and instead get rid of the hangers on who fill his head with nonsense. Frankly if he tangles with Matthysse next fight at least we will get the chance to see his funky chicken dance one more time before his sky punditry career starts.

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Post by Guest on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 6:56 pm

If Matthysse is the next opponent then maybe we are looking at this from the wrong angle, i.e. do GBP now look at Khan as a go to opponent?

He's lost his last two, he's exciting because he's so flawed, he has a decent profile thanks to all the work they did whilst he was winning.

Matthysse is also exciting and coming off a good win, beat Khan and he's looking at big fights which fans will want to see because of his style.

Khan needs a good win and I can't see too many of the champions wanting to willingly risk a fight with Matthyse.

Maybe Matthyse is the new flavour of the month and Khan is the set up.

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Post by TheMackemMawler on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 7:44 pm

If he fights Garcia while his mistakes are fresh in his mind then the outcome would be very different. All he has to do is box on the back foot as a counter puncher. I still can't understand why he doesn't do this.

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Post by Redrage on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 8:21 pm

alma wrote:You've got to wonder if khan really deserves a rematch with Garcia. The first fight was such a comprehensive beating, it's not like it was similar to the petersen fight. When a fight is that onesided, is the result of a rematch really likely to be any different?

To be fair, Khan was schooling Garcia until he walked on to the only shot in Garcia's armory... that is the flaw with Khan, he is mentally incompetent in the ring and I doubt he'll listen to any trainer as he hasn't learned from any of mistakes yet.

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Post by azania on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 11:05 pm

Khan is an ungrateful so and so. I mean how dare he fire a coach who he probably has lost confidence in.

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Post by azania on Sat 15 Sep 2012, 11:08 pm

alma wrote:You've got to wonder if khan really deserves a rematch with Garcia. The first fight was such a comprehensive beating, it's not like it was similar to the petersen fight. When a fight is that onesided, is the result of a rematch really likely to be any different?

The win for Garcia was comprehensive in that he scored a KO. Prior to the left hook, it was anything but comprehensive. As for deserving of a rematch. A fighter should earn one and work their way back. Khan has not done that. Neither has Morales, but there you go.

Khan will beat Lucas if they meet. He is wide open and if Judah and Alexander can beat him, so can Khan and he will pretty easily. Crazy choice though.

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Post by rycoys on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 10:16 pm

love what roach has said tho , [ just dont put him in with a puncher ] ,

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 10:17 pm

That's what everyone said about the Peterson and Garcia fights, i'm not entirely sold on Matthyse but to his credit he's a better boxer than either of them.

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Post by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 10:22 pm

Matthysse can punch as hard as Maidana but is better defensively, has a better defence, better chin and is a much better boxer

We all know how khan struggled against 2 pressure fighters in Maidana and Peterson and matthysse is better than both imo and he hits harder than Garcia who blasted him out of there

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 10:24 pm

Khan has the tools to beat him quite easily if he just stays on the outside and boxes but it's been a while since he's done that.

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Post by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 10:27 pm

Khan had the tools to pitch a shut out vs Maidana, peterson and Garcia.

Whoever his new trainer is, he won't completely change his style in such a short space of time, it can take up to a year for it to work and it will take more than. A couple months for khan to stop fighting fire with fire. His chin is too fragile against a puncher like matthysse

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 10:43 pm

That's exactly my point WHU, he should be expected to beat Matthyse with ease but we all know he won't, a boxer with his ability should be the undefeated, unified and universally recognised number one at 140lbs. It has less to do with his chin but his mental attributes, unwillingness to change and his machismo have got in the way.

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Post by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 10:58 pm

And they will continue to get in the way. Chinny boxers don't usually have long careers at the top (much like khan has already suffered from, rollerocasters careers) and while khan is gifted with speed he doesn't have the power to stop fighters from just charging through him getting to his chin or getting him on the inside where he is very flawed

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 11:01 pm

It's his flaws rather than his chin getting in the way, the simple answer is not getting hit in the first place to expose his vulnerabilities, tightening up his defence and working on his inside game are the main things he needs to work on.

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Post by Lance on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 11:02 pm

khan cant afford the annaul subsciption to the wild card gym any longer, after blowing his repuation as a top fighter in his past 2 fights.

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Post by manos de piedra on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 11:15 pm

Khan has very good handspeed and punching variety but outside of that I think the rest of the packpage is not neccessarily miles above the division average. And there are some significant weaknesses. Mathysse would be a borderline reckless fight to comeback to if he values maintaining his career or at least the idea he is a really top fighter. A third straight loss to a divisional rival would really hurt his credentials.

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Post by Sugar Boy Sweetie on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 11:16 pm

He's just not that good. Dropped by Limond, murdered by Prescott, scraped past Maidana, back to back defeats against Peterson & Garcia. Is this the CV of an elite fighter? He thinks training at the Wild Card and sparring with Pacquiao puts him at that level, but he's wrong. His career is on a knife edge now. Someone mentioned earlier that GBP could be using him as a 'go-to' guy for their better prospects as he has a profile but not the ability to match. This is a great point. If he fights Matthyse it'd be as a stepping stone for Matthyse in GPB's eyes, which is an indictment of how far Khans stock has fallen - he's becoming another Victor Ortiz.
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