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England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji

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timhen
DaveM
AlastairW
propdavid_london
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anotherworldofpain
Triangulation
stlowe
BigTrevsbigmac
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Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler
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Post by robshaw4england Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:57 am

Not taking into consideration the backs who are in the EPS or the Saxons, this is the backline I would choose for the first match of the Autumn against Fiji.

I won't take Foden or Youngs into consideration, as I am guessing they are unlikely to be fit.

15. M.Brown (Harlequins)
14. C.Ashton (Saracens)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. D.Waldouck (Saints)
11. C.Wade (Wasps)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. D.Care (Harlequins)

21. J.Simpson (Wasps)
22. D.Cipriani (Sale)
23. J.Joseph (L.Irish)

With Foden injured, Mike Brown is the obvious replacement, he has been mightily impressive already this season, extremely solid in defence and under the high ball, his work-rate in attack is phenomenal. He hits good lines, often breaking the gainline offering himself as a ball carrier, his passing, tactical kicking and awareness are impressive and he plays like he has nothing to lose. Ashton also has a high work-rate and impresses me every time I watch him play, whilst Tuilagi should play at outside centre, as England must find a way to utilise his strengths.

Inside centre was the toughest position to call, I easily could have gone with Allen due to his partnership with Flood and Tuilagi, I could have also gone with Twelvetrees who I feel hasn't quite lived up to his potential just yet. However, I felt that a midfield of Waldouck and Tuilagi has a really nice balance, Waldouck isn't the biggest (like Allen) but he has quick feet, a lot of gas and a strong distribution game, if he can stay fit he could be a real asset for England. Joseph would cover the outside backs, he's been a shining light in a poor London Irish team.

Left wing was also a tough position to call. Jonny May, Ugo Monye, Charlie Sharples and even Matt Jess of Exeter could have been good options, however Wade has made an explosive start to the season, especially in attack. His all round game looks good, he has pace to burn and is extremely exciting to watch, however issues with defence may deem his selection less likely.

The inclusion of Cipriani on the bench is down to the fact that I feel the more he plays for Sale the better he will get, he's very much a confidence player, and on form he could be the best fly half in the northern hemisphere. Having watched Farrell today there is no doubting his defensive abilities, but he was very poor with the ball in hand and really struggled to get Saracens going. I'm sure he'll be a top player, but he still needs time to develop, and won't offer half as much as Cipriani can on the front foot, at the moment I am still far than convinced by Farrell at the highest level.

Joe Simpson has also been playing extremely well for Wasps at the start of this season, he isn't the biggest but he is very exciting and offers that x-factor certain players like Lee Dickson and Richard Wigglesworth don't possess, so I'd have him on the bench, as a player of his ability could change a game.


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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:44 am

robshaw4england wrote: on form he could be the best fly half in the northern hemisphere.


So could Gavin Henson

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Post by mowgli Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:12 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
robshaw4england wrote: on form he could be the best fly half in the northern hemisphere.


So could Gavin Henson

Broken Record picard

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Post by Geordie Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:47 am

My only concern with that backline is that Tuilagi aside theres not a huge amount of physicality in there.






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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:59 am

I think there's enough, unless you want to try Monye or Benjamin on the wing. We can't really do (and I don't approve of) physicality at 10 or 9 and having both 12 and 13 overtly physical is predictable and in general stifles the attack
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Post by Fluxy Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:36 am

Why do we need more physical players? Oz don't necessarily have the most physically imposing backline.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:38 am

My only concern is that Danny Care has the worst hair ever. Even as a Quins fan I think I'd start Youngs over him at the moment so that I won't have to see his bloody hair
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Post by yappysnap Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:43 am

Right now I don't think either Cips or Joseph will be in there

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Post by yappysnap Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:45 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:My only concern is that Danny Care has the worst hair ever. Even as a Quins fan I think I'd start Youngs over him at the moment so that I won't have to see his bloody hair

What's worse is that he probably paid money to a supposed professional for that haircut too. He just looks like an extra in a boy band

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Post by niwatts Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:31 am

No way is Cipriani deserving of that bench spot, he hasn't shown even a hint of anything international class so far this season and no more than any average club player over the last couple of years. Burns has been far more convincing as the sort of player people hope Cipriani to be.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:26 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:My only concern is that Danny Care has the worst hair ever. Even as a Quins fan I think I'd start Youngs over him at the moment so that I won't have to see his bloody hair

Thanks, that cheered me up.

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Post by Geordie Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:15 pm

Fluxy wrote:Why do we need more physical players? Oz don't necessarily have the most physically imposing backline.

Because at the moment that backline above based on skill doesnt come close to the talent that is the aussie backline...


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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:36 pm

niwatts wrote:No way is Cipriani deserving of that bench spot, he hasn't shown even a hint of anything international class so far this season and no more than any average club player over the last couple of years. Burns has been far more convincing as the sort of player people hope Cipriani to be.

Hence the comparison the Henson.

He had one good game for England, 41/2 years ago, before his injuries. Nothing he has done since suggests he is the player he was even then. Thats not to excuse farrell of course, but surely theres a better option than Cipriani out there? Even 36 would be a better bench option, covering 12,10, and 13.
Waldouck as well...no thanks

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Post by englandglory4ever Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:49 am

Fluxy wrote:Why do we need more physical players? Oz don't necessarily have the most physically imposing backline.

And they can't beat NZ and they struggle to get past the Pumas. They also were quite lucky to beat the Boks at home. So not having an imposing backline isn't really doing them any favours is it?

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Post by englandglory4ever Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:50 am

We need someone like Luther Burrell at inside centre. Waldouck is a patsy.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:09 am

englandglory4ever wrote:
Fluxy wrote:Why do we need more physical players? Oz don't necessarily have the most physically imposing backline.

And they can't beat NZ and they struggle to get past the Pumas. They also were quite lucky to beat the Boks at home. So not having an imposing backline isn't really doing them any favours is it?

When the Lions have to face a backline of Genia, Cooper, Vuna, JoC, AAC, Ioane, Beale on anything resembling their form last year, I think you'll have to rethink that statement.
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Post by bluestonevedder Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:14 am

Cipriani has done absolutely nothing to suggest he is any where near deserving a call up. Potentially the best fly half in the NH? Maybe when he first came on the scene as a youngster. Now though, he's what, 24? To be World class he should be well on his way at this age, but unfortunately, he's shown nothing.

I actually think if he were to be selected for England, the SH teams would lick their lips. He's played down there, and all the SH boys know him. I can't recall if he did anything positive of note on the pitch really? He certainly didn't take the league by storm, which he should have done if he were world class.

Don't get me wrong- he could be good. But world class? I think he missed his boat.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:11 am

Goode for Cipriani the rest I wouldn't argue about.

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Post by stlowe Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:54 am

Burns/Flood in the AP this season

Matches 4/4
Points 63/40
Carries 9/13
Metres 138/38
Clean Breaks 2/2
Offloads 0/3
Defenders Beaten 4/2
Tackles 14/11
Tackles Missed 3/3
Penalties Conceded 1/0
Turnovers Conceded 3/8

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Post by Triangulation Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:12 pm

All these posts about our backrows and back 3s all vert well but these are areas of relative strength....

What about our midfield?

A 12, my kingdom for a 12....

Is Twelvetrees going to be able to step into the breach for the Fiji game?

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Post by Triangulation Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:15 pm

Rbbshaw4 England says...

Inside centre was the toughest position to call, I easily could have gone with Allen due to his partnership with Flood and Tuilagi, I could have also gone with Twelvetrees who I feel hasn't quite lived up to his potential just yet. However, I felt that a midfield of Waldouck and Tuilagi has a really nice balance, Waldouck isn't the biggest (like Allen) but he has quick feet, a lot of gas and a strong distribution game, if he can stay fit he could be a real asset for England. Joseph would cover the outside backs, he's been a shining light in a poor London Irish team.

Who's with him? !

I havent seen enough of Waldouck this season. How old is he? How well is he playing? Is he international standard? Is he a 12? I thought he played 13.


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Post by anotherworldofpain Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:22 pm

12. Ashton
11. Tuilagi

Build around that, and you will find the better results!

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Post by beshocked Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:48 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:Cipriani has done absolutely nothing to suggest he is any where near deserving a call up. Potentially the best fly half in the NH? Maybe when he first came on the scene as a youngster. Now though, he's what, 24? To be World class he should be well on his way at this age, but unfortunately, he's shown nothing.

I actually think if he were to be selected for England, the SH teams would lick their lips. He's played down there, and all the SH boys know him. I can't recall if he did anything positive of note on the pitch really? He certainly didn't take the league by storm, which he should have done if he were world class.

Don't get me wrong- he could be good. But world class? I think he missed his boat.

Agree with this completely.

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Post by Triangulation Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:50 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:12. Ashton
11. Tuilagi

Build around that, and you will find the better results!

Yes yes ha ha we heard that the first time.

We have failed to settle on a 12 for England since the retirements of Greenwood and Catt.

Can Farrell be developed as an international 12 or is it 10 or nothing for him?




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Post by offload Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:20 pm

Cipriani has done nothing for Sale. The Sharks were notably better when he went off against Welsh. I can't imagine England fans wanting him anywhere near the England team.
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Post by Triangulation Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Who is Cipriani and why is his name being mentioned?

In all seriousness forget about him.

The 10 pecking order should be something along the lines of....

Flood
Flood
Flood

Freddie Burns

George Ford

(Farrell as the bench 10 i.e the game closer).


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Post by anotherworldofpain Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:37 pm

Triangulation wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:12. Ashton
11. Tuilagi

Build around that, and you will find the better results!

Yes yes ha ha we heard that the first time.

We have failed to settle on a 12 for England since the retirements of Greenwood and Catt.

Can Farrell be developed as an international 12 or is it 10 or nothing for him?




You must be joking.

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Post by beshocked Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:37 pm

Triangulation have you watched Flood in the last two games?


Neither Farrell or Flood are in form.

Personally I would start Burns vs Fiji as long as he's in form.

See how he does. If he does well he can start the rest.

I would play this side vs Fiji:

9.Care
10.Burns
11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Goode/Brown

Why this combo you might ask? 10 and 12 are team mates. 12 and 13 - former team mates. 14 and 15 are team mates.


Last edited by beshocked on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by propdavid_london Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:44 pm

If you were picking on the latest round of Aviva Prem form -
Care
Burns
Simpson-Daniel
36
Burrell
Eastmond
Brown

I would like SL to pick for Fiji -
Care
Burns
Sharples
Tuilagi
Joseph
Ashton
Brown

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Post by LondonTiger Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:46 pm

I like Goode, but Mike Brown deserves to start more.

Anyway we will learn a lot more next month during the first two rounds of the HC.

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Post by beshocked Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:47 pm

propdavid london why do you think Lancaster should keep picking Tuilagi as a 12?

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Post by beshocked Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I like Goode, but Mike Brown deserves to start more.

Anyway we will learn a lot more next month during the first two rounds of the HC.

Either one would be a good choice. I'll amend my selection.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:53 pm

Because he offers more go-forward than any other 12 or 13.
Tigers had hardly any penetration over the weekend without him. Even internationally he sucks in defenders and would make space for Joseph to exploit.
Admittedly Joseph has had a bad start with Exiles but last weekend saw him doing better.
Think that combo could still work but just needs a bit more time.

Admittedly I still like Barrett in the centers as he offers that extra bit of solidity in defence.
One to keep an eye on too is Tompkins - he is doing very well for a new convert.

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Post by beshocked Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:56 pm

propdavid london I agree. I think Tuilagi is our best centre.

Why not leave Tuilagi at 13 and try to plug the 12 gap with someone else?

That's my opinion anyway.

12s we have are the likes of Barritt,Twelvetrees,Allen and JTH.

Are Waldouck and Burrell 12s or 13s?

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Post by Geordie Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:02 pm

Burns and twelvetrees looked good this weekend.

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Post by beshocked Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Burns and twelvetrees looked good this weekend.

Good to hear. Could well be the 10 and 12 in the AIs then.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:15 pm

Beshocked - yes that is an option. Problem is that we are blessed with more 13's than we are 12's.
Decent centers that is - untill that quality 12 is found we are having to make do.

Tuilagi is a quality 13, with that extra space to get momentum up and a bit more time to pick lines. I would be more comfortable with Joseph at 12 and Tuilagi at 13 - but I think modern centers interchange quite a lot anyway.

I'm not sure what Waouldock or Burrells positions are - Think Burrell played 12 this w/e

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Post by Geordie Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:02 pm

Burns looked steady for most of the game..which was seriously open and attack minded from both sides.

BUt in the last 20 - 30 mins of the game...Burns just seem to say you know what im taking charge and just ran the show...both running the ball and with tactical territorial kicking. He looked very good during that spell.

Likewise Twelvetrees...whilst he did make a few mistakes (not loads or costly ones) his defence was ferocious and his alround game looked decent.

Id consider them for the bench v Fiji...or even starting...but i think for the others...id be looking at Flood, Barritt and Tuilagi.

We must remember that Whilst the creativity does come from 10-12...it hasnt been helped by a lack of direct ball running etc from our back row / pack which sucks players in.

We have to hope that Catt and Rowntree can just up this a bit more...and provide a little more room for the the above to flourish.


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Post by yappysnap Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:30 pm

Geordie you're right about burns, I was really impressed with his tactical kicking game, which was in my opinion even better then his running game.

For Fiji i'd like:

9. Care
10. Burns
11. Monye
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

A good mix of experienced players with club combos and all form players. All defencively strong and all of them have are good in attack.

I would love to see that backline against Fiji.


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Post by propdavid_london Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:30 am

Think youve got it there Yappy. Could be good.
I'm not sure about Monye though - As a quins STH I appreaciate what he offers, but for England I would like to see Sharples get an extended run out.

If it wasnt for his defensive frailty I would want Wade - but hes got to sort that out first.

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Post by AlastairW Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:36 am

propdavid_london wrote:If it wasnt for his defensive frailty I would want Wade - but hes got to sort that out first.

Wade for the bench. He certainly showed himself worth of that in the SA dirt track games, could be what is needed now and again to break the line and make holes.


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Post by yappysnap Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:37 am

11 is actually pretty tough. Most of the youngsters have pretty obvious weaknesses and I think these would be compounded by the new fly half and 12 as well.

Sharples has been off color so far and maybe May would do better? Or Abendanon?

Monye is at least very solid and would be a very good security blanket for the rest of the youngsters in that backline.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:45 am

Yup, Monye would definately be that - also offers a good boot to get out of trouble if needed.
Sharples - havent seen much of him yet - May would be a good option. Not sure about Abendanon on the wing when we have out and out specialists in contention.
Biggs may even get his chance against Fiji - although i like the look of Eastmond at the moment (but wouldnt want to rush him into England - has to do his time at club first).

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Post by propdavid_london Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:47 am

Alistair - yes, he took his try's very well in SA - but he was also accountable for letting several in as I remember by either being out of position or falling off tackles.

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Post by DaveM Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:49 am

Has to be Monye on the left wing for me. I'm not sure if May has ever played the position and Wade's defensive frailties were there again for all to see on the right wing for Wasps at the weekend. Some wings can interchange, lots can't.

If not Monye I'd consider calling up JSD. Obviously not a longterm option, but England need a good autumn series - we can experiment in the 6 Nations if necessary - and he knows the position well.

I'm following Burrell's progress at 12 with some interest.

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England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji Empty Re: England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji

Post by timhen Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:35 am

DaveM wrote:Has to be Monye on the left wing for me. I'm not sure if May has ever played the position and Wade's defensive frailties were there again for all to see on the right wing for Wasps at the weekend. Some wings can interchange, lots can't.

If not Monye I'd consider calling up JSD. Obviously not a longterm option, but England need a good autumn series - we can experiment in the 6 Nations if necessary - and he knows the position well.

I'm following Burrell's progress at 12 with some interest.

I'm not saying he should be selected, but he's definitely played left wing for Gloucester more than a few times before. When he's been paired with Sharples on the wings, Sharples always takes right. And as a player that has appeared for his club at centre and FB as much as wing he has no issues with playing a side as some wingers can when featuring out of their regular position.

A few more good more performances from Eastmond and I'd be far from surprised to see him at least drafted into the Saxons as part of the injury substitutions. Another player whose background I think would mean he doesn't have an issue with which wing he plays.

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England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji Empty Re: England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji

Post by DaveM Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:09 am

I think Eastmond is wasted out wide. Hopefully Bath will try him somewhere where he can get more time on the ball.

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England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji Empty Re: England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji

Post by anotherworldofpain Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:49 am

yappysnap wrote:Geordie you're right about burns, I was really impressed with his tactical kicking game, which was in my opinion even better then his running game.

For Fiji i'd like:

9. Care
10. Burns
11. Monye
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

A good mix of experienced players with club combos and all form players. All defencively strong and all of them have are good in attack.

I would love to see that backline against Fiji.


Twelvetrees had his chance, I'm afraid and he was rubbish. You can tell right away when a player will not step up to the next level. It is clear as day and there is no need to see more. If you labour on under the idea of gaining exposure slowly you will just waste a lot of time and opporrtunity for the other players.

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England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji Empty Re: England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji

Post by ChequeredJersey Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:52 am

When did Twelvetrees have his chance?
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England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji Empty Re: England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji

Post by anotherworldofpain Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:55 am

Last year. He played in some Saxons game and I remember he was rubbish even at that level. I was very dissapointed because I heard so much about him. He was anonymous and only visible to make an error. He lacked pace, penetration, couldn't tackle, was caught out of position, had no kicking game and generally looked like a third spare wheel for a unicycle.

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England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji Empty Re: England backline for first Autumn International vs Fiji

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