Heineken Cup Round 1 (Pool 1): Edinburgh Rugby v Saracens

Saturday 13 October 2012
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 15:35
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)

Teams:

Edinburgh:

15 Tom Brown,
14 Lee Jones,
13 Nick De Luca,
12 Matt Scott,
11 Tim Visser,

10 Greig Laidlaw (capt),
9 Richie Rees,

8 Stuart McInally,
7 Ross Rennie,
6 David Denton,
5 Sean Cox,
4 Grant Gilchrist,
3 Willem Nel,
2 Ross Ford,
1 John Yapp.

Replacements:
16 Andy Titterrell, 17 Allan Jacobsen, 18 Geoff Cross, 19 Robert McAlpine, 20 Netani Talei, 21 Chris Leck, 22 Harry Leonard, 23 Dougie Fife

Saracens:

15 Alex Goode,
14 Chris Ashton,
13 Joel Tomkins,
12 Brad Barritt,
11 David Strettle,

10 Charlie Hodgson,
9 Richard Wigglesworth,

8 Jackson Wray,
7 Will Fraser,
6 Kelly Brown,
5 Mouritz Botha,
4 Steve Borthwick (capt),
3 Matt Stevens,
2 Schalk Brits,
1 Mako Vunipola.

Replacements:
16 John Smit, 17 Rhys Gill, 18 Petrus du Plessis, 19 George Kruis, 20 Andy Saull, 21 Neil de Kock, 22 Owen Farrell, 23 Chris Wyles

Current form in domestic league:

Edinburgh:

9th Place - Played 6: W 2 D 0 L 4 - 12 points

Saracens:

4th Place - Played 6: W 4 D 1 L 1 - 20 points

Last year's Heineken Cup:

Edinburgh:

Semi-finalists (lost 22-19 to Ulster at the Aviva Stadium)

Saracens:

Quarter-finalists (lost 3-22 to ASM Clermont Auvergne at Vicarage Road)

Btw George Carlin Edinburgh were HC semi finalists as we have been told many times.

I like the images for Saracens and Edinburgh. Monkey and red rose is cool.

Positive for Saracens is they have not yet played a game at "home" whatever that is. Their 6 games have been Twickenham,Salford Park,Wembley,Sandy Park,The Stoop and the Kassam Stadium.

At Murrayfield it will be the 7th away match in a row unofficially, 4th official away match in a row.

What kind of attendance are you expecting for the game?

Changed beshocked, to reflect the full bitterness of Reekie's semi final tonking by the Ulstermen.

Hard to tell what the attendance will be. The gate for the first home game last year against Racing Metro was only about 6,000 but by the time of the last pool game against Irish, it had risen to nearly 11,000. The Toulouse quarter final had 38,000.

But its against those crazy snoremeisters Sarries this time. Who, in fact, knows whether the fickle Edinburgh fans will turn out after their shockingly soft start to the league?

We need a similar transformation from league form to HC form as we had last season, and I can't believe Sarries will be a easy to score against as Racing, Cardiff or LI were last time round.

This is tricky for Edinburgh. What we needed was another mentally weak side with a slightly flimsy pack and a desire to chuck the ball around. Sarries will be entirely the opposite. Structured, hard-nosed, controlled and will take every point available. I also can't see them wilting in the final quarter when Edinburgh will inevitably adopt the "miracle pass" tactic.

My only hope is that Sarries are too conservative and kick too long, allowing Tonks and Visser to break up the game. I also hope that Denton and Talei make the XV and play out of their skins, because we'll need to be physical to get near that Sarries pack.

Well we hammered Edinburgh preseason and their form doesnt look to have improved...so Sarries should have no troubles....

Indeed - Saracens are now known as the most boring team in the AP. Have they got the title of most boring side in Europe?

The problem for Edinburgh is that Saracens are the antithesis of everything that Edinburgh seems to stand for.

Whereas Saracens are well known for their strong defence, mentally tough hard edge forwards, boring style, squeezing the life out of the opposition style and are generally near the top end of the league table.

Edinburgh are almost the complete opposite. Edinburgh have an exciting style,a lot more inconsistent. Score a lot more tries.

Saracens' defence vs Edinburgh's attack.

Personally I think defence will win but of course I would say that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we hammered Edinburgh preseason and their form doesnt look to have improved...so Sarries should have no troubles....

I'm sorry, this is a Heineken Cup thread. Can't imagine Newcastle fans can comprehend this level of rugby

beshocked wrote:Indeed - Saracens are now known as the most boring team in the AP. Have they got the title of most boring side in Europe?

Go to a Glasgow game. They run you pretty close on that front!

Probably worth noting that kick off is at 13.35.

Not sure if you want to update the original post

Well once again we're into David Vs Goliath territory here - but if there's anything Edinburgh specialise in it is David Vs Goliath!

Since there are a lot of bitter and jealous people on here ( ) let's just remind ourselves of what Edinburgh manged to do last season against all expectation:



Start the campaign winning away to London Irish

Come back from 27 points behind with 20 minutes to go to win 48-47 against Racing Metro

Follow that up with a rare win away to Racing Metro

Needed a BP win to guarantee qualification and went on to hump London Irish and get said bonus point win.

Beat Toulouse - with their massive budget, successful team and enormous European pedigree.



So yes Edinburgh have started the season crap, yes Sarries are a very strong team that have started the season well, but this is Edinburgh - literally anything could happen!

I'm not confident on the crowd front - the game is on a saturday afternoon when thousands will be playing their own club rugby games instead of coming to watch. When you include all the coaches/fans/parents that are involved in club rugby then that is a lot of people not able to go. Indeed I am onyl able to go cause I am currently injured!

To that end I'd be surprised if we got much more than 6000

Some good match ups though:

1. Kelly v Dozer

If Denton is even thinking about a Lions slot, he's going to have to prove he can match the master penalty procurer His KellyBrows himself.

2. Brits v Ford

Biff. Kerpow. Holy heavyweight slapfight, Batman.

3. Burger v Rennie

Very, very interesting. Two young guys with big reputations to uphold.

4. Ashton v Visser

You can keep your rampantly metrosexual swan diving.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we hammered Edinburgh preseason and their form doesnt look to have improved...so Sarries should have no troubles....

I'm sorry, this is a Heineken Cup thread. Can't imagine Newcastle fans can comprehend this level of rugby

Your right its been a long time, though we'll be back soon......but if you cant beat a championship side...and indeed get pummled in the pack during that.....you aint got no right being in the HC yourselves...

Geordie- I'm sure you're not being overly serious but a teams first pre season game isn't the best marker for how a team will perform in the HK!

Aw im just having some friendly banter with my cross border mates...

I hope not.

Glasgow got biatchslapped by Sale in the pre-season.

I knew it - you Geordies are alright!

Must win game for Edinburgh. After last season I was confident, after the start of this season I am not.

Ednburgh shold be able to outscore Sarries tho. I would like a better front 5 for sure tho.

Edinburgh's tactics are going to be key here - if we do what we did against Trevisio and try to take them up front and kick, we will lose. Not many people can beat Sarries at their own game.

I do suspect that, where Sarries are excellent at plan A, they may struggle if it isn't working. If we manage to get a 10 point lead or so it will force them to open up a bit which they might not like.

So basically don't let them get an early lead or they'll grind us down and keep the scoreboard ticking over. Having said that you now know exactly what is going to happen on Sat!!!

Has chunk been starting at LH for you guys this season RDW?

I must confess, whilst i appreciate it was just preseason...he was one i just wasnt impressed with. He had a hard day at the office that night.

Has he been good this season...or was that a signal his powers are on the wane....

He has been playing, but Yapp has probably featured more. He said himself in an interview recently that it will be a tough balancing act for him this year as he said he was on his best form last year when he got several games in a row. The problem was that he was knackered come the end of the season because he had to play so much cause the backup props were crap!

So he hasn't stood out as being particularly good or bad really. I hope Bradleys rotation of the props calms down a bit because it can't be good for them doing one week on, one week off.

Ah i see...

Haven't Edinburgh been performing better against stronger opposition? If so that bodes well.

How have the different aspects of play being working out for Edinburgh?

One area of Saracens that is underrated is the lineout. Saracens have one of the best around led by the lineout maestro Borthwick (he can't carry well obviously but who cares?) If your lineout is not functioning properly the Sarries guys will have a field day. It was important in Saracens shutting down the Quins attack.

If I were Edinburgh I would attack the Saracens scrum. It's never really been a weapon of ours and things have not changed. Saracens don't normally get the decisions at the scrum.

At the breakdown it's another thing entirely. Saracens are breakdown demons. Very good at forcing either the penalty or turnover. Excellent at slowing opposition ball both legally and illegally. If you continue to infringe Hodgson or Farrell will lap up the penalties.

Defence has been decent as usual. Unsurprisingly the attack has been poor. Saracens have created a lot of try scoring opportunities but the finishing has been absolutely atrocious.

If all the opportunities actually are finished though someone is going to get a pummeling.

On paper the Saracens backline looks threatening but it hasn't clicked yet.

George Carlin sorry to say Burger is not available.

Not sure who is going to get the 7 shirt but it's either Fraser or Saull.

I much prefer the head to heads of these players.

Hodgson vs Laidlaw (I hope it's Hodgson)

Goode vs Tonks

Tomkins vs De Luca

Saracens line out was very very good against Quins. Completely closed down that avanue of attack for us.

What they can't do is string together attacking moves under pressure, watch the game against Welsh, they just can't seem to get the key passes to go to hand.

You have to get some points on the board and make them play catch up. If they control the tempo then you'll lose. Simples!

Of course I'll be backing the Eng team so feel free not to score anything against them...

Don't know what all the fuss is about. Sarries are a walk over!

(Toungue firmly in cheek Beshocked!)

effervescing elephant I hope the Edinburgh team thinks that.

I want Edinburgh to start chucking the ball around.

Yappysnap that's true. It's as if the Saracens players drop the ball as soon as the try line is in view. They can get the ball close to the try line and can even get the ball over the line but they either drop it, it's disallowed etc.

Some of the decision making has been poor.

Bradley is opening his briefcase. Taking out the small black box with the red button and he'll be pressing it any minute now - scheduled for 18.45.

Once pressed, Edinburgh become a quality HEC side once more and go off to easily slay some Euro giants.

Greg Laidlaw has made some interesting comments.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19892541


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9597315/Greig-Laidlaw-calls-for-quick-Edinburgh-game-against-Saracens-in-Heineken-Cup-opener.html

I think if Laidlaw thinks it's wise to chuck the ball around against Saracens he's going to be in for a shock. Maybe it's just the Telegraph spin twisting his words though.


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/heineken-cup-reform-would-hold-no-fears-for-greig-laidlaw-1-2566562

I like his comments about the potential heineken cup reform. Good to see his honesty on the topic.

Makes some very good points.

Crucially for Edinburgh they have a Pro12 ref. Could this have an impact?

I think Greg is right - its not about chucking it around for the sake of it but its about playing the high tempo game that has been successful for Edinburgh and that is not the sort of game Sarries are used to playing.

When Edinburgh play at their best the ball is moved around the park so fast and is in play for so long that few teams can match them. Its no use having a big powerful pack like sarries if they are never near the ball. Murreyfeild is a big pitch as well. Plenty of space.

It also tests the fitness of the opponents - tap and go, quick lineouts, quick ball from rucks.

Pro 12 ref??

Edinburgh have got to do what Edinburgh do best - rampaging carrying from their back row demons and quick ball for the backs. Got to vary the play too - not just lateral passes and stupid offloads but chips over the top and kicks to the corner. One things for sure if we turn this into an arm wrestle we'll lose.

Edinburgh's lineout has been one of the more positive aspects this season so will be interesting to see whose comes out on top.

Key selection for me is what he does with McInally - He has been one of hte few standouts in the forwards so far this year but an on form backrow of Denton, Rennie, Talei is one of the best in Europe IMO and has the physicality to take it to Sarries.

TJ you make out as if the Saracens side are big and slow. Some of the pack are of course but Brits certainly isn't. The backrow are no slouches either.

You should really underestimate the Saracens backs at your peril. They haven't turned opportunities into tries but there's enough firepower in the backs to give sides trouble if they click. Certainly if Hodgson starts at fly half the attacking opportunities go up.

Saracens have never shown a problem with fitness. The only thing that might help Edinburgh is if Saracens bring on their bench all at once which has on quite a few occasions spoit the flow and rhythm of Saracens.


The problem for Edinburgh IMO will be generating quick ball. If the most attack minded side in the AP - Quins couldn't do it can Edinburgh?

Saracens are best known for their strong backrow,lineout and defence.

Can Edinburgh match the Saracens backrow I wonder?

Yes but Beshocked the Rabo is much quicker than the AP..... .....

It certainly should be a good game. Its just IMO its Edinburghs best chance - to play the fast offload and mix it up game they play at their best. Sarries willnot be used to playing tht way.

As for the back rows - Gonna be an awesome contest. and Where the game will be decided as Edinburgh must have quick ball. I hope the ref refs the breakdown tightly and does not allow holding on or hands on the ball.

Given the Edinburgh back row players available they will be scared of no one. Take any three of Denton, Grant, Talai, Rennie.............. etc

Right time to speculate on team selection!

I reckon he'll go for:

1 Chunk
2 Ford
3 Cross
4 Gilchrist
5 Cox
6 Denton
7 Rennie
8 Talei
9 Rees
10 Laidlaw
11 Visser
12 Scott
13 De Luca
14 Jones
15 Tonks

Subs: Yapp, Titterell, Nel, McInally, Grant, Leck, Leonard, Brown

And I am fairly sure that's what it will be, the only doubt being whether McInally starts or not. He might change Jones for Brown (hopefully!!!!) but he's kept Jones in the team despite some very poor form.

We'll see.

Will Denton be no 8 or 6?

He's normally 6 for Edinburgh if Talei plays.

Saracens side will probably be

1.Gill
2.Brits
3.Nieto
4.Borthwick
5.Botha
6.Brown
7.Saull
8.Joubert
9.Wigglesworth
10.Hodgson
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Tomkins
14.Ashton
15.Goode

16.Vunipola
17.Stevens
18.Smit
19.Hargreaves
20.Wray/Fraser
21.De Kock/Spencer
22.Farrell
23.Wyles

Could be quite a bit different though. Rotation means things are so uncertain.

Farrell might well start either 10,12 or 13. Wyles could start at 13 or wing.

Others who haven't been mentioned who might be in the 23 are Kruis and Du Plessis.

Some tasty matchups there. I think Brits is a great player - how will Ford match up to him? Two hookers that are extra flankers.

Brown V denton

Laidlaw V Farrell - I bet on laidlaw to come out on top

Not forgetting MacVisser V Aston - I will bet you MacVisser show how one dimensional Ashton is

Is Ford that quick? Brits likes to think he's a centre not a hooker.

It could well be Hodgson vs Laidlaw. I would bet on it being that.

Farrell was fly half for 3 games in a row - Leicester,Exeter,Quins.

Hodgson took the 10 spot for the last game vs LW so I expect him to step up again and tbh I want him to.

TJ wrote:Not forgetting MacVisser V Aston - I will bet you MacVisser show how one dimensional Ashton is

We'll see. I expect Visser will be well marshalled. Obviously he's been given a lot of press what can you tell me about the rest of the backs?

TJ wrote:I will bet you MacVisser show how one dimensional Ashton is

Let's hope it's not Ashton doing the opposite to MacVisser....

From an Edinburgh point of view I'd rather Farrell over Hodgson!

Ford isn't overly quick but is an absolute behemoth. I'd like him to be more dynamic in his ball carrying but he always makes ground.

Ford is quick for a hooker and does play like an extra flanker. As quick as Brits? We will see. Brits has really impressed me tho I must say. Definitely and interesting matchup

beshocked wrote:

TJ wrote:Not forgetting MacVisser V Aston - I will bet you MacVisser show how one dimensional Ashton is

We'll see. I expect Visser will be well marshalled. Obviously he's been given a lot of press what can you tell me about the rest of the backs?

I expect he will be - Ashton will need help in marshalling him. he often is at his best taking a fairly free role appearing around the park out of his conventional position - Much like Ashton but is a more rounded player. Teams have been marking him tightly this season and he is still scoring tries - despite Edinburgh not playing well.

9 Rees - playiing for his career with a point to prove. Gets the ball moving quickly

10 Laidlaw - fast on his feet and between the ears - quick to get into the 9 positionif the 9 is tied up helping quick ball. Needed to work on defense but seems to have done. A quality act

11 Visser - seems to have it all - pace, strength, ability to read a game

12 Scott - - decent centre but young and inexperienced. good footballer

13 De Luca - a great mix of sublime and brainfarts. Plays better for Edinburgh then scotland. Prone to rushing out of the line in defense. hero or donkey - little in between

14 Jones - a flier but seems to have suffered a big dip in form/ confidence from last year

15 Tonks - Big boot on him and got some pace Really stepping up this year and looks very useful

all in all a very pacey set of backs and some good layers but prone to let in a lot of tries as well as scoring a lot.

Beshocked - the key to Edinburgh's backline (even Visser says so) is the centre combination of young Matt Scott and Nick De Luca.

Scott is still young but has proven to be an excellent foil for NDL - he's packed on almost a stone of muscle in the off-season too and is both creative and solid in defence. He is now starting to look like Scotland's answer in the problem 12 shirt.

We know the story with De Luca - massive talent, wonderful pass, good step, hits like a train in defence and is the 'assist' master for a huge number of Visser's tries. He is also prone to more than the occasional brainfart which leads to him shooting out of defensive lines, dropping balls and occasionally getting yellow carded. There's been less of this recently, though, thankfully.

The back three are well established. Another product of the formidable Tigers Academy production line, Greig Tonks has been the signing of the Scottish clubs so far. Enormous boot, calm head, good vision and if Hogg does not regain form, I wouldn't mind seeing him in a Scotland shirt. Visser remains Visser and he's already scored 8 this season. Enough said - he will almost certainly score at least once.

The other wing slot is going to be interesting. The player you probably won't know is Tom Brown, who usually plays full back. He has been key to the Scotland A side for years (playing a major part in their 35-0 horsing of the Saxons last year) and is an absolutely electric runner. He would have the Scotland full back berth safe if it wasn't for Stuart Hogg. It's between him and Lee Jones for the right wing slot and whilst Jones has had the worst second season syndrome I've ever seen, with quite horrible form thus far, he seems to be coming back and scored a barnburner of a try last weekend. Bradley is a big Jones fan, but Brown has been by far the more consistent player this season. Let's see.

Either way, there's an awful lot of gas in the back three.

beshocked wrote:
We'll see. I expect Visser will be well marshalled. Obviously he's been given a lot of press what can you tell me about the rest of the backs?

You probably know Richie Rees, Laidlaw and De Luca pretty well. But as for the rest:

12 Matt Scott - Breakthrough season for him last year and potentially going to be a real Scotland star. Ball playing 12 who has put on some extra beef over the summer to add some more physicality to his game. Still only 21 I think so will only get better

14 Lee Jones/Tom brown - Both are fairly small but great pace. Brown is the more solid option but Lee Jones has a bit mroe pace. Problem is Jones' form has been awful this season

15 Tonks - signed from the Saints and has been our best signing this season. Rock solid under the high ball and a massive left boot on him. Good defence and hits the line well. If Sarries haven't done their homework and kick aimlessly to him he will punish them with his returning kicks.

RDW Scotland of course you would prefer Farrell to the legendary charge down Charlie. Farrell adds more defensive power but if the shackles are going to be broken it will be by Charlie.

Ashton will be chomping at the bit. Just hope he doesn't pick up another yellow.

Tomkins is growing well. If he starts I think he'll certainly pose some questions for the Edinburgh defence. He's got the perfect attributes for a 13 IMO.

Tomkins vs De Luca is something I am looking forward to.

beshocked wrote:
Ashton will be chomping at the bit. Just hope he doesn't pick up another yellow.

.

dunno if Visser is enough of a wind up man to get to him but hopefully :-) I suspect having to marshal Visser will negate him a bit.

That's the thing - if Ashton goes wandering and leaves Visser un-marked and we get a turnover there could be a nasty mis-match out wide!

TJ wrote:Not forgetting MacVisser V Aston - I will bet you MacVisser show how one dimensional Ashton is

There is nothing wrong with being one dimensional in rugby if you are very good at your one dimension.