The Welsh Management Team - A Longstanding Problem

First of all I would like to say that Warren Gatland and Shaun Edwards have done some really positive things for the Welsh team. I don't need to list this as it is quite an extensive list, admittedly.I mean last years Grand Slam and World Cup will never be forgotten by Welsh fans. However I will balance that with the incredibly frustrating series in Australia and the fact that you are judged against the 3 Southern Hemisphere powers.

BUT

My issue is the same one that I have noticed with us in the last few years. People are getting into/or being left out of the Wales squad without any justification or sense of fairness in some cases. It is very frustrating that you have the untouchables who are assured of a place time and time again despite having done nothing for two years. Then you have younger players that the management had hopes for who have failed, even at magners level being retained over players who are really playing well in the league and in Europe.

It seems to me that the management, clearly, dont watch any club rugby, or care about form or performances of their players. It can be seen in this squad:

McCusker - hasn't pulled up any trees for a year or so and has been out of his depth at European level on a couple of occasions.
Turnbull - Ditto
Knoye - Ditto
Lloyd Williams - Not anywhere near good enough for International Rugby. Has performed at an average to fair level at club level recently.
Tavis Knoyle - You cant afford brainless players at International or European level. Senselss box kicking, slow service etc
Scott Andrews - May as well give up Rugby, and find something he is good at.
Hook - Has never cut it, time to leave him be and find a new alternative.

Prydie, Webb, Navidi, Gareth Davies, Samson Lee, Lewis Evans, Lee Byrne are unlucky. It's a shame Tovey and Patchell got injured as a squad place would have been OK and hopefully Eli Walker will get into contention in another 3-4 months.

Also it will be a shame (but a foregone conclusion) that Jamie Roberts will start the big games and be our main weapon when he hasn't had a good game since Justin Bieber last considered getting the razor out!

Cellan, the biggest suprise for me is Robinson, who can't get into the Blues team ahead of Tom James!

Of the others:

Macusker, played well earlier in the season but is now struggling playing in an unfamiliar position behind a beaten pack.

Turnbull, class player who has not recover his pre injury form, but puts in the graft that allows Shingler to get the glory.

Knoyle, you dislike him so much you named him twice. He was poor on Saturday, he failed to vary his game and put pressure on Priestland. Lots of ability but needs refining.

Lloyd Williams, Brynmor's son and Howley's mate, enough said.

Scott Andrews, can't get into the Blues side despite the appalling standard of their front row!

Prydie or Walker ahead of Robinson, Navidi is behind Warburton and Tipuric, so struggling. Gareth Davies has not had much game time and Webb is kept out of the Ospreys side by Fortuali'i! Byrne is playing well but like Steve Jones is getting on. Lewis Evans is a good player but needs to settle on a position and Samson Lee is 19 (but still better than Andrews).

I disagree about Roberts he is a class player, big, powerful and fast, but playing behind a poor pack.

Its only ever a problem when you think we are about to do poorly in up coming matches.

As soon as we are winning we are lucky to have them.

What about the last three tests all lost to a weakened Aust team. The management picked players regardless of form, injuries and game time, exactly what this post is all about.

Welcome to 606v2, Cellan.

I agree with many of your points and I do think that Howley / Gatland will tend to favour players who are 'in' with Wales over up-and-coming players; but as someone has pointed out on another thread, these Autumn internationals are the last Tests we'll play before the IRB rankings are frozen ahead of the pool draw for the 2015 World Cup. For now, winning is everything and development can wait.

If we see conservative selection for the Six Nations, then it'll be a different matter.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Welcome to 606v2, Cellan.

I agree with many of your points and I do think that Howley / Gatland will tend to favour players who are 'in' with Wales over up-and-coming players; but as someone has pointed out on another thread, these Autumn internationals are the last Tests we'll play before the IRB rankings are frozen ahead of the pool draw for the 2015 World Cup. For now, winning is everything and development can wait.

If we see conservative selection for the Six Nations, then it'll be a different matter.

Yes exactly...!

I am really looking forward to the opportunities for youngsters after the new year. There are some very exciting players starting to put their cards in the mix. Patchell, Sampson Lee, Nalvidi, Dixon, Walker etc will all be fighting for first team spots very soon.

I think Walker has a fair bit to do still

maestegmafia wrote:There are some very exciting players starting to put their cards in the mix.

Maes, I love your mixing of metaphors!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:There are some very exciting players starting to put their cards in the mix.

Maes, I love your mixing of metaphors!

Adds a dash of colour, I send time wondering which would be bet to amuse.

Gatland has never been afraid to throw youngsters in so maybe this squad is purely Howleys choice I don't know.

I have however always said that I wasn't happy with Howley being involved and certainly not in charge, there are better coaches out there than Howley that could do a better job alongside Gatland and Edwards as I have no problems with those two being there.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Gatland has never been afraid to throw youngsters in so maybe this squad is purely Howleys choice I don't know.

There are plenty of youngsters in this squad, James Hook the oldest back at 27, average age must be about 23 in the backs and maybe 26 in the forwards.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I have however always said that I wasn't happy with Howley being involved and certainly not in charge, there are better coaches out there than Howley that could do a better job alongside Gatland and Edwards as I have no problems with those two being there.

I understand that many people feel that way about Howley but I don't see why...! He has had only three games at the helm and we could have done a lot worse than we did.

He deserves a shot, certainly more than he has had to be proved good or bad.

But Maes, how qualified is he to be interim head coach? He was only backs coach because he was chummy with Gatland and Edwards at Wasps and now he ends up at the helm. It's pretty poor.

[quote="maestegmafia"]

bedfordwelsh wrote:Gatland has never been afraid to throw youngsters in so maybe this squad is purely Howleys choice I don't know.

There are plenty of youngsters in this squad, James Hook the oldest back at 27, average age must be about 23 in the backs and maybe 26 in the forwards.

Fair one Maes but wha I meant is that with the exception of Jarvis there is no new talent that hasn't been called up by Gatland. It would have been nice to see Tom Prydie (capped my Gatland I know), Adam Hughes and Samson Lee at least in the squad if only for the experience.

[quote="bedfordwelsh"]

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Gatland has never been afraid to throw youngsters in so maybe this squad is purely Howleys choice I don't know.

There are plenty of youngsters in this squad, James Hook the oldest back at 27, average age must be about 23 in the backs and maybe 26 in the forwards.

Fair one Maes but wha I meant is that with the exception of Jarvis there is no new talent that hasn't been called up by Gatland. It would have been nice to see Tom Prydie (capped my Gatland I know), Adam Hughes and Samson Lee at least in the squad if only for the experience.

The management stated that it is the IRB top four they are aiming for, pre-rankings for the RWC 2015 in December. Experience over blooding is the call I'm sure.

Thing is all the players that are being quibbled over, accusing their selection on pure longevity rather than form may well be accurate but this autumn is all about the first fifteen and not the squad on mass. The lads who have been in and around the first team will be more beneficial training partners to those involved than newbies who need to learn the ropes.

I am sure Prydie, Lee and Hughes are all justifiably within the radar, just this is not the ideal time to get them involved. Six Nations may well be different though. They are all highly talented and it is only a matter of time.

Maes,

As usual we rarely dis-agree on things and not to a point here but if we don't experiment in the AIs when do we.

I would rather experiement in these games than in the 6 Nations.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

As usual we rarely dis-agree on things and not to a point here but if we don't experiment in the AIs when do we.

I would rather experiement in these games than in the 6 Nations.

Due to the AIs being the last opportunity to overtake the French and English, hopefully Aussies or SA too it isn't a good time to experiment, its a good time to play our strongest fifteen for four consecutive games.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

As usual we rarely dis-agree on things and not to a point here but if we don't experiment in the AIs when do we.

I would rather experiement in these games than in the 6 Nations.

Hi Bedford:

I agree with you regarding AI's we should be trying out new combinations and trying out back up players in key positions like TH, 10 and 8 but these AI''s are more important because of the ranking points i.e., to get to 4th. This year we must not slip up we must win at least 3 out of 4 and rely on England and France to slip up.

Also it will be very beneficial to the players in this squad to apply some serious qualification pressure on them.

The experience could see us do well in the future.

Ye once every few years the AI's need to be about getting 4th spot, we made a mistake last time when playing Aus, we were up by 1 knowing a 7 point win gave us 4th spot and we settled for a 4 point win instead of rolling the dice.

From what I see as well we are still riding off the WC and GS so as close to the same squad is being picked to ensure consistency and to let the players fall straight back into the succesfull and bouyant atmosphere, especially as all regions are all but out of europe at round 2.

When things are going well don't change them, and I know the Aus tour was technically not a success but from a historical point of view thats as close as we've come for a long time.

I disagree with the likes of Robinson, Andrews etc too but they were part of the squad recently, and have been favoured for that alone.

One thing I cant agree with though is Lloyd Frak Williams!!!!! Bryn moor has done more harm to the game in wales than good bribing his sons into the professional game!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:
One thing I cant agree with though is Lloyd Frak Williams!!!!! Bryn moor has done more harm to the game in wales than good bribing his sons into the professional game!!

That is the most ridiculous statement. How on earth is Brynmor Williams doing harm to the game in Wales?

Cellan, couldn't agree with you more.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:There are some very exciting players starting to put their cards in the mix.

Maes, I love your mixing of metaphors!

Idioms, not metaphors

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ye once every few years the AI's need to be about getting 4th spot, we made a mistake last time when playing Aus, we were up by 1 knowing a 7 point win gave us 4th spot and we settled for a 4 point win instead of rolling the dice.

Fairly certain Australia scored a wonder try with pretty much the last play of the game to bring the scores closer? You're talking about 2008 right?

miaow wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:There are some very exciting players starting to put their cards in the mix.

Maes, I love your mixing of metaphors!

Idioms, not metaphors

I stand corrected!

Seeing as he's been mentioned, apparently Adam Hughes isn't on the radar yet. Prydie is however.

I read that the WRU asked the Dragons about Prydie and Phil Price's fitness, but didn't enquire about Adam Hughes. I'm a big fan so I think he should be involved, at least in a national training squad, but the problem he has is that we have a fair few centres to choose from in Wales.

I think it's also a case of a player being good at regional level, but an educated guess from a selector might be that they won't make the step up to international level. The reasons being, unfortunately, size, strength, and the pace of the game at international level meaning that the time you get on the ball is far less, and the scope to make an impact less too.

I'd include Fussel, Harries, Fenby, Maule in this group. Even Brew at one point, although he has the size and pace to make up for it. Each of these players is lacking a key facet of play that Gatland wants in his backs: his tactics are pretty convervative, and he wants players who, when they get the ball, will score tries most of the time, and who will get over the gainline to do so. That's why Cuthbert was brought in, and so successfully: he has many weaknesses, not least his defence, yet this rarely gets exposed for Wales, and the few times he gets the ball he makes the most of it, either through pace, power and elusive running. Sadly, although I think Hughes is a great player, I don't think he will ever be capped for Wales.

With the greatest respect, Miaow, your argument is weakened by the presence of Harry Robinson in the squad.

I'd agree, luckless. But then Robinson is very much from the class of Scott Williams: internationally conditioned before he's even starting for his region. Like Cuthbert, his finishing ability is enough to justify his presence: he has more pace than any of the wingers mentioned above, and fits in with the selection criteria, even though he's not performed amazingly (or starting?) for the Blues at the moment.

Cellan1987 wrote:First of all I would like to say that Warren Gatland and Shaun Edwards have done some really positive things for the Welsh team. I don't need to list this as it is quite an extensive list, admittedly.I mean last years Grand Slam and World Cup will never be forgotten by Welsh fans.

Wales won a grandslam and a world cup last year?

must try harder awop, you'll not catch anything with that bait

miaow wrote:I think it's also a case of a player being good at regional level, but an educated guess from a selector might be that they won't make the step up to international level. The reasons being, unfortunately, size, strength, and the pace of the game at international level meaning that the time you get on the ball is far less, and the scope to make an impact less too.

I'd include Fussel, Harries, Fenby, Maule in this group. Even Brew at one point, although he has the size and pace to make up for it. Each of these players is lacking a key facet of play that Gatland wants in his backs: his tactics are pretty convervative, and he wants players who, when they get the ball, will score tries most of the time, and who will get over the gainline to do so. That's why Cuthbert was brought in, and so successfully: he has many weaknesses, not least his defence, yet this rarely gets exposed for Wales, and the few times he gets the ball he makes the most of it, either through pace, power and elusive running. Sadly, although I think Hughes is a great player, I don't think he will ever be capped for Wales.

I think Fussel , Fenby and Maule are being/have been looked over due to their age. It seems like if you don't win your first cap before you turn 23/4 then you can rule out getting called up unless there is a serious emergency.

Yep, pretty much true, and might this be Gatland mirroring NZ's selection policy? A whole host of early-to-mid Kiwi players have been disregarded, with favour falling upon players aged 18-21/22.

I have no issue with all of the players I've highlighted, and Hughes, not being capped though. It's one thing to be a good regional player, but another to be a good international player. For example, I've never seen Warburton play anywhere near as well in a blue shirt as in the red of Wales, and it works vice versa with these boys: they're either steady and competent all rounders, like Maule and Fenby, or swift runners, like Harries, Fussell and Hughes, who would get battered up against an English, Kiwi or Saffa backline defence (I'd include ours in that as well, we pretty much have the biggest backs in the world).

miaow wrote:I've never seen Warburton play anywhere near as well in a blue shirt as in the red of Wales, and it works vice versa with these boys: they're either steady and competent all rounders, like Maule and Fenby, or swift runners, like Harries, Fussell and Hughes, who would get battered up against an English, Kiwi or Saffa backline defence (I'd include ours in that as well, we pretty much have the biggest backs in the world).

It can't possibly work vice versa with them because they've never played for Wales. We have no way of knowing.

For the record, it's only Adam Hughes of the players you mention who I think should get a look in.

Cellan1987 wrote:First of all I would like to say that Warren Gatland and Shaun Edwards have done some really positive things for the Welsh team. I don't need to list this as it is quite an extensive list, admittedly.I mean last years Grand Slam and World Cup will never be forgotten by Welsh fans. However I will balance that with the incredibly frustrating series in Australia and the fact that you are judged against the 3 Southern Hemisphere powers.

BUT

My issue is the same one that I have noticed with us in the last few years. People are getting into/or being left out of the Wales squad without any justification or sense of fairness in some cases. It is very frustrating that you have the untouchables who are assured of a place time and time again despite having done nothing for two years. Then you have younger players that the management had hopes for who have failed, even at magners level being retained over players who are really playing well in the league and in Europe.

It seems to me that the management, clearly, dont watch any club rugby, or care about form or performances of their players. It can be seen in this squad:

McCusker - hasn't pulled up any trees for a year or so and has been out of his depth at European level on a couple of occasions.
Turnbull - Ditto
Knoye - Ditto
Lloyd Williams - Not anywhere near good enough for International Rugby. Has performed at an average to fair level at club level recently.
Tavis Knoyle - You cant afford brainless players at International or European level. Senselss box kicking, slow service etc
Scott Andrews - May as well give up Rugby, and find something he is good at.
Hook - Has never cut it, time to leave him be and find a new alternative.

Prydie, Webb, Navidi, Gareth Davies, Samson Lee, Lewis Evans, Lee Byrne are unlucky. It's a shame Tovey and Patchell got injured as a squad place would have been OK and hopefully Eli Walker will get into contention in another 3-4 months.

Also it will be a shame (but a foregone conclusion) that Jamie Roberts will start the big games and be our main weapon when he hasn't had a good game since Justin Bieber last considered getting the razor out!

I think your being harsh on Rob McCusker after Lydiate he's the most natural 6 in Wales hes also come back from a long term injury. I don't think he will let Wales down if selected.

Ok, to clarify, I believe they are players who will be 'vice versa', who won't make the step up in grade.

Could the Wales management be trying to improve these selections that we question? It's happened before... If so then this surely has to be last chance saloon for a good few of them. I expect Jarvis to do well and hope to see him start against Argentina.

Good shout for Adam Hughes, if Will Harries can creep through for a few caps then Adam might be given a chance. He does play in a position where we have good competition though.

Adam Hughes should be in the squad but he is not first choice at the dragon because Tuilaghi is there. He's a better player than Tuilagi too.

Maes, tonight will be the second match this season where we've had Tuilagi at inside centre and Adam Hughes at outside centre. For my money that's our best centre pairing.

Adam Hughes is definitely your best inside centre, Tuilagi is not a great player though. I am looking forward to seeing the young lads Hallam Amos or Jack Dixon get their chances inside Adam.

When those lads start performing then the Dragons backline will be looking top class.

Just need to keep a hold of the top players like Lydiate and Faletau, and hope that some good youthful talent comes through for the front five.

I think Jack Dixon's going to be class. My concern is that we won't necessarily keep hold of him.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I think Jack Dixon's going to be class. My concern is that we won't necessarily keep hold of him.

I think you may be alright as all the regions appear to have good home grown centres, and the Jeff sides wouldn't lower themselves to signing a Rabo player.

If they could get their hands on them, they'd sign plenty.

SecretFly wrote:If they could get their hands on them, they'd sign plenty.

I would rather Welsh players went to france if they have to go anywhere, the French clubs seem to be far more understanding than English.

Hopefully the WRU and regions will have worked out a clever and successful way to keep top welsh players at home in the near future.

[quote="maestegmafia"]

SecretFly wrote:

"Hopefully the WRU and regions will have worked out a clever and successful way to keep top welsh players at home in the near future."

Yes RG I think we all agree with you there

So what is the answer to keeping welsh players in Wales? As it stands I wouldnt want to be a welsh regional player, flying away week in week out, pay poor in comparison to the English or French, weather awfull compared to parts of France, no quality rugby in the Rabo, playing in empty stadiums, and worst of all being scrutinised by the media constantly for losing games.

That is one depressing outlook on the life of a regional rugby player!!

Went to the Dragons ulster Match last night. No Dragons player deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as welsh selection. Ulster were no-where near full strength and put a virtually full strength Dragons side to the sword easily every aspect of the dragons game was dreadful set-piece breakdown tackling awful awful. I though the dragons might finish above the blues this season on the evidence of this the italians may finish above them.

tecphobe wrote:Went to the Dragons ulster Match last night. No Dragons player deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as welsh selection. Ulster were no-where near full strength and put a virtually full strength Dragons side to the sword easily every aspect of the dragons game was dreadful set-piece breakdown tackling awful awful. I though the dragons might finish above the blues this season on the evidence of this the italians may finish above them.

From what I saw on TV before turning over to watch the Scarlets in the second half, I agree with you I thought Hughes was rubbish his defence was poor but that may be down to the donkey centre next to him. I thought Harries put his body on the line a number of times but too many players were slipping tackles including Brown.