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Wales Vs Argentina Assessment & Player Changes

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Post by Permian1988 Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:59 am

First of all let me say that was a fantastic performance from Argentina. They looked the more hungry, fitter and better coached team who have clearly benefited from their previous experiences in the RC and the tutelage of Graham Henry.

The Argentinian back row were far superior, covering the ground well, dynamic ball carrying and causing absoulte mayhem in the tackle and on the ground. I often read the comments on this board from my fellow welshman and shudder at our sometimes unwarranted belief. That is not to say I do not possess those traits when it comes to my country & rugby, but I try to be realistic.

Positives for Wales were few and far between. Only a few players put their hand up for future selection while others obviously looked lacklustre due to the teams overall subdued, clueless and weak performance.

Aaron Jarvis showed up very well in the scrum and in the loose. Faletau tried to impact the game with his ball carrying and the back three also tried to make an impact. That for me is where the positives come to a very abrupt end. If at all I can really call them positives.

Wales went well in the scrum but their forwards made no inroads into the Argie defence, struggling for any front foot ball or to even make an impact in the tackle/tackle area themselves.

Wales seemed to continue with the same old same old gameplan. First hit up down the middle with a centre or wing, forwards loop around, loop around, same way same way until they run out of space. Far too lateral. ABsolutely no go forward. When the ball was forced wide, players failed to straighten the line and it was easy for agentina to usher the wings into touch. There was a clear over reliance on our "POWER" backs.

I wrote an article post Australia tour about the apparent lack of ball carriers Wales have in their forwards. This still stands. There is an overwhelming faith in some players and I almost cried at the somewhat dubious decisions made in selection by the Welsh management team.

People will sight the grandslam as a success of which it is. But the quality of rugby played was poor overall by all teams. The best game of the tournment being Wales vs Ireland where Wales showed the World cup form. But that was it. People will also sight "how close we were to beating OZ". Well, they have just lost 33-6 to France.

Finally, the management. Howley was a "world class" (Note: As a welshman we use this phrase far too easily, but in this circumstance I feel its warranted) player but a terrible backs coach/selector. He lacks the innovative skills to break down defences from set piece.

I hope for Wales sakes we see a change in the set up of the team, management and gameplan. Howley & McBryde should be released and sent to the blues/dragons.

Wales will need to bounce back from this defeat and we will have to see changes and players on form coming in. My team for samoa:

1) Paul James (G Jenkins)
2) Richard Hibbard (M Rees)
3) Aaron Jarvis
4) Luke Charteris (B Davies)
5) Ian Evans
6) A Shingler (Turnball)
7) Justin Tupuric (Warburton)
8) Toby Faletau

9) Mike Phillips
10) Dan Biggar (Priestland/Hook)
11) George North
12) Ashley Beck (Roberts)
13) JD/S Williams
14) Alex cuthbert
15) Leigh Halfpenny

16) K Owens
17) R Bevington
18) G Jenkins
19) B Davies
20) S Warburton

21) T Knoyle
22) S Williams
23) R Preistland

Not that I expect the team to look this way so Wales management changes in brackets. I have drwan a blank in my mind as to whether a 23 man squad would have to have 2 props as shown in mine. If its not the case I would stick Liam Williams on the bench instead of G Jenkins.


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Post by RogerLewis Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:18 am

It's all pointless as the next test is against Samoa so AGAIN Dan Bigger only gets his chance for Wales against Mickey Mouse opposition.

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Post by Permian1988 Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:31 am

Pooor man managment Roger!

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Post by GavinDragon Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:37 am

spot on permian

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Post by Permian1988 Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:42 am

Cheers Gav, No doubt we are srtuggling to a few key injuries but I am sick to death of players getting selected based on past performances! Roberts is nowhere near as destructive, priestland lacking in quality, gethin lacking physicality and ball carrying prowess as did mathew rees and warburton.

McCusker WTF is that selection about? Turnball? Behave! cluelss slections and it looks to me like a clueless management!

Its not just that gatland is away! Howley is poor as is mcbryde!!! they shouldnt be there anyway!

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Post by bedfordwelsh Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:43 am

I would have Ryan Jones in there if fit because he will need a game before NZ. Other than that spot on
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Post by Permian1988 Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:46 am

Of Course bedford! He would make the lions tour before Warburton IMO! He wont but is clearly in good form!

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Post by maestegmafia Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:06 am

I wouldn't blame selection as much as I would blame players under performing, lacking their usual intelligence.

I agree with your changes above. But I don't think Biggar will improve the team much, Phillips was worse than Knoyle yesterday. Tipuric did look better than Warburton, Shingler might add something, Roberts and AWJ are likely out.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:17 am

The only welsh players who I would really consider 'in form' playing yesterday were the back 3 & the 2 wingers didn't see much of the ball!

I think Howley has to ditch the loyalty he has shown to players that haven't deserved to be picked. I would have been more surprised if the players that have been out of form for so long for their Regions could just flick a switch & play well.

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Post by Permian1988 Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:19 am

Maes, what I would say about selection is that competition does breed good performance.

To select Priestland infront of Biggar or Hook who have both been playing well has spat in their faces. Almost as if to say "You can peform well all year lads for your region/club, but Im not going to pick you!".

McCusker hasnt looked good playing for the Scarlets yet hes selected on the bench. Totally beaten up every time he plays.Bad enough as that is, he was selected at 2nd row cover. Bad move as when we lost Alyn wyn and he came on, we lost the lineout! I know he played back row, turnball into 2nd row.

Mathew Rees- A fantastic player 2/3 years ago. Has struggled with intensity of international rugby. Carries poorly and doesnt offer enough around the park.

Gethin Jenkins- Never have I known a player to be selected when not fit or on form as much as him. Pathetic in terms of ball carrying, does not have the same impact around the park. Another player living off the lions tour of 09.

Jamie Roberts- A will make an excuse for him here. He is being flogged. An easy targets for defences. Needs to be used more wisely.

Warburton- Off form. Not a poor player and he will have a great future. Tupuric had ten times the impact in the 8 minutes he played.

Turnball- not of international quality/lack of other options?

I will disagree about phillips. He was quicker to the breakdown than knoyle. His pass was also slicker. Its becoming a monotinous hearing that his pass is poor or slow. It is not the case. He often pays the price for being behind a pack that is not winning quick ball. That was the case for knoyle and him yesterday.

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Post by Permian1988 Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:22 am

Agreed MAC, they didnt see much of the ball. Players inside them often forced them down alleys with nowhere to go.

Thought Jarvis and Faletau worked hard though. Scott williams made a lot of tackles I would think. Tired in the latter stages because of this.

Tackling was horrific yesterday. Too many arm tackles. Not enough shoulders going in!

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Post by bedfordwelsh Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:25 am

Phillips made more of what possesion he had than Knoyle did and added that bit more physicality.

How the hell Turnbull and McCusker got selected over Shingler is yet another baffling selection.
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Post by samuraidragon Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:29 am

Agree totally with Permian. Not a great fan of Mike these days, but he was a different level from Knoyle in terms of threat and nous.

McCusker bombing the overlap was symbolic of an overall lack of rugby intelligence and "heads up" style.

Enough already with the poor garryowens!

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Post by RogerLewis Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:51 am

Would rather see Andy Powell BRITISH LION over the long list of weak forwards to come from Llanelli.

Scarlets forwards are as aggressive as Gandhi.

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Post by Permian1988 Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:00 am

Samurai...I am utterly sick to death of; Phillips has a bad pass, hes slow to the breakdown etc etc....

The only scrum halves we have who are different styles to him are; Gareth Davies and Rhys webb.

With the pack playing the way they are at the moment. And in that I include our recent grand slam and OZ campaign I have some comfort knowing that phillips can tackle and is aggressive.

Let me just add...... I thought there was again, a complete lack of aggression from Wales. Look at Ireland yesterday. Love a bit of getting stuck into the opposition. We didnt ruffle any feathers apart from Scott williams's opening tackle in the first minute!

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Post by LondonTiger Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:01 am

RogerLewis wrote:It's all pointless as the next test is against Samoa so AGAIN Dan Bigger only gets his chance for Wales against Mickey Mouse opposition.

One of the more disrespectful comments I have seen on these boards for a while.

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Post by Permian1988 Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:02 am

samuraidragon wrote:Agree totally with Permian. Not a great fan of Mike these days, but he was a different level from Knoyle in terms of threat and nous.

McCusker bombing the overlap was symbolic of an overall lack of rugby intelligence and "heads up" style.

Enough already with the poor garryowens!

Totally agree with the garryowens comment samurai! Poor distance and chase. The kicking was poor in general yesterday. NZ will have an absolute field day with that!

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Post by Permian1988 Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:04 am

London...I think old roger here needs to be careful. I fully expect another loss next week if we play like this again.

Emotion is clearly somethings hes struggling with!

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:41 am

I watched the game today for the first time. The impression i got was that Argentina had come to play a game of rugby and had come top win a game of rugby.

Wales on the other hand looked to me that this was just a training game for them. That Argentina are not worth bothering with and they will go through some game moves and save them selves for Australia and the All Blacks.

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Post by offload Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:42 am

Nice post Permian and I agree with your thoughts for the next game. Now I have sobered up and have calmed down I usually can see some positives to build on but not this time. Only 5 players deserve to keep their place against what will be stiff opposition next week. Unfortunately, I think we will see a management team in denial with a "no need to panic" and "give them a chance to put it right" message. Sometimes when you are off form, it doesn't matter how much class you have, you just can't find it!
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Post by maestegmafia Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:47 am

Permian1988 wrote:London...I think old roger here needs to be careful. I fully expect another loss next week if we play like this again.

Emotion is clearly somethings hes struggling with!

Loss?

We will get thumped...!

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Post by bedfordwelsh Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:50 pm

offload wrote:Nice post Permian and I agree with your thoughts for the next game. Now I have sobered up and have calmed down I usually can see some positives to build on but not this time. Only 5 players deserve to keep their place against what will be stiff opposition next week. Unfortunately, I think we will see a management team in denial with a "no need to panic" and "give them a chance to put it right" message. Sometimes when you are off form, it doesn't matter how much class you have, you just can't find it!

What would your 5 be who remain offload?

For me, if all fit this would be the team for Samoa and NZ

James
Hibbard
Jarvis
Charteris
Evans
R Jones (c)
Faletau
Tipuric

Phillips
Biggar

North
JD
S Williams
Cuthbert

Halfpenny

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:18 pm

Permian1988 wrote:Cheers Gav, No doubt we are srtuggling to a few key injuries but I am sick to death of players getting selected based on past performances! Roberts is nowhere near as destructive, priestland lacking in quality, gethin lacking physicality and ball carrying prowess as did mathew rees and warburton.

McCusker WTF is that selection about? Turnball? Behave! cluelss slections and it looks to me like a clueless management!

Its not just that gatland is away! Howley is poor as is mcbryde!!! they shouldnt be there anyway!

Just come back from the Scotland game...... very proud of our inovation and attack minded approach but so disappointed with our defensive display.

Anyway back to some amazing comments on this topic......... so I'll balance the view of Permian1988

Rees was good - in fact his support of Jarvis around the fringes was very very good, when Hibbard came on there was no improvement (didnt go worse tho) in most areas and considering he was fresh didnt make the impact and the Pumas scored more points after he came on

Roberts did well enough up to the time he went off - Beck unfortunately is a revolving door in defence and is not the form player as some are trying to make out, Jon Davies needs to be fast-tracked back asap

AWJ and Ian Evans largely ineffective and between them they gave away pens galore (AWJ 3 pens in 5 mins, and Evans was lucky not to have the yellow card for a high tackle. Both are penalty machines in intense play. The fact that Wales didnt have no line breaks speaks volumes

Hook consistently out of position, no pass was penetrating and he didnt make one tackle that stuck. I never thought I would say this but the only position you can play him is halfback

Faletau made tackles but none clamped and his ineffective effort where the ball was easily offloaded was the start of the 2nd Pumas try. Lobbe was a country mile ahead of him

Warburton and Turnbull had little support of their locks and were constantly under pressure. Chateris has to be fast-tracked into the side asap plus AN Other

Priestland very poor but didnt have no space to operate. Hook or Biggar in next game

Knoyle was better than Phillips who looked like he didnt give a monkeys whether he was playing or not

Gethin Jenkins doesnt become an overnight poor player


I would play the following

15 Halfpenny
14 Cuthbert
11 North

13 Davies
12 Williams

10 Hook
9 Knoyle

8 Jones
7 Tuperic
6 Shingler

5 Evans
4 Charteris

3 Jarvis
2 Hibbard
1 Bevington


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Post by bedfordwelsh Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:26 pm

James is our best l/head by the proverbial country mile BUT with niether him nor Jenkins being available for the Oz game I do see merit in giving Bevington game time.

Hook done nothing when he came on and Biggar is the form 10 so give him his chance.

Phillips for me did shade it over Knoyle and his currently only best of a bad bunch.

I do like the sound of the backrow but thought Faletau done enough to merit another crack so would put Jones at No6
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Post by flyhalffactory Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:32 pm

Nice one Bedford, some good counters there

Just an observation but do you really think that Faletau nailed any tackles, I saw him tackle quite a bit, but honestly didnt see one effective tackle that stopped or pushed the Pumas back and raised his side and the crowd spirit, I saw two thumping tackle that Scott Williams produced and maybe the rest need to watch those tackles and realise you need to put your body on the line for your country


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Post by bedfordwelsh Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:38 pm

Yh Williams done a few crunchers and whilst Faletau didn't in the same manner (but has he done before) he made yards even if with poor ball and seemd the only forward making an effort.

My one worry over Ryan Jones is that I have always said he plays better without the burden of captaincy but if Warburton doesn't start (we know he will) and Jones does then he is likely to be skipper. If so hope it doesn't affect his game.
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Post by flyhalffactory Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:42 pm

Simple answer to that Bedford mate

Give the captains armband to Tuperic (he has been the Os captain) or play Matthew Rees who in my mind is a better capt than Warburton anyway

I also think Biggar starting is no problem at all

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Post by Morgannwg Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:55 pm

Permian, spot on. Roger Lewis continues his stupid comments. Oh well just another few days (or less) of putting up with it I suppose. Howley the Howler, where do I begin? I've summarised it on other threads so I'm not going to bother here. It's obvious we need more ball carriers and some guys with more tactical nous. Hence the following team;

1. Paul James
2. RIchard Hibbard
3. Aaron Jarvis
4. Luke Charteris
5. Ian Evans
6. Ryan Jones (c)
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Scott Williams
13. Jonothan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Gethin Jenkins, 17. Matthew Rees, 18. Samson Lee, 19. Bradley Davies, 20. Sam Warburton, 21. Lloyd Williams (not to be used), 22. Rhys Priestland (not to be used), 23. Liam Williams.

Would rather see Beck in RP's place. Leaving Halfpenny to cover 10 should DB get injured. The turkeys have been dropped as you can see, I've gone for a powerful team to be guided by the form 10, the one who does it consistently for his Region. I think Roberts (if he was concussed) and AWJ are likely to be out. That's a blessing in disguise. Howley won't even have the bottle to drop anyone I bet and we'll see the exact same team (inuries permitting) fielded. The guy is clueless. Even the one-eyed subscribers of WRU facebook can see this! They also criticise RP on a regular basis and were quite critical of the page when they felt the WRU did not give enough due credit to Argentina.
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Post by manofgwent Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:01 pm

I agree with a lot of comments on here. My take on yesterday's game was. We are very very predictable to read. Argentina knew that Jamie Roberts would smash the ball up for Wales, but once he went off, Wales didn't have another game plan.

I agree with Rogerlewis. I think it's been harsh on Biggar that he's only been given his chances against weaker opposition, but playing in. A weakened welsh team. I think Wales will have to pick a strong team vs Samoa or risk a White-wash this autumn!

Gothic Jenkins wasn't his usual self. Maybe ring-rusty after mainly being used as a Toulon sub. If available I'd like to see Charteris return in the 2nd row. Warburton and Turnbull were good in defence, but Warburton had a quieter than usual performance. Knoyle isn't good enough. Priestland hasn't stepped up his game. He's not making the 10 position his own and struggles to control the game. His re-starts are also dire. Scott Williams won us a game at Twickenham but was poor yesterday.

I personally don't have a lot of time for Howley and tactically we seemed so poor. We keep trying to bully teams with Roberts, North and Cuthbert's size, bit that seems to be all we have. We missed Johnsthan Davies' class yesterday. North is a big powerful player, but it's like he's trying too hard to make an impact that he tries to take on too much on his own. He did the same for the Scarlets against Leinster. He looks a frustrated player.

After a largely horrendous start to the season for the regions, not a lot of good news is coming out of welsh rugby at the moment. Players departing to Framce and now the national team looking out of sorts. One plus is just how poor the Aussies went in France. One downer was my £5 bet on Argentina to beat Wales by 6-10 points!


Last edited by manofgwent on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)

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Post by bedfordwelsh Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:12 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:Simple answer to that Bedford mate

Give the captains armband to Tuperic (he has been the Os captain) or play Matthew Rees who in my mind is a better capt than Warburton anyway

I also think Biggar starting is no problem at all

Fly,

Yh if Rees played he would be my choice after all was captain before injury anyway and done v good job, but will he start.

Biggar HAS to start for me.
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Post by Morgannwg Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:19 pm

FIRST the good news, Wales were only beaten by 14 points.

Now the bad news, they face World Cup holders New Zealand and Australia over the next few weeks.

And that’s not without forgetting Friday’s encounter with a Samoa team itching to avenge their controversial World Cup defeat 13 months ago.

If Wales play this badly again, the simple fact is they won’t win any of those matches.

For they were miles away from the force that charged to Grand Slam glory just eight short months ago.

Wales have now lost their last four Tests, this defeat coming on the back of a 3-0 summer whitewash in Australia.

What’s more, they suffered worrying injuries to key men Alun Wyn Jones and Jamie Roberts.

Neither finished the first half, centre Roberts being knocked out after his jaw came off worst in a collision with Gonzalo Tiesi and lock Jones damaging his left arm when he was on the end of a thumping tackle from opposite number Manuel Carizza.

Sure, Wales were disrupted by the loss of that pair but they were way off the pace.

They were suffocated up front and lacked ideas behind, often aimlessly kicking possession away on a Millennium Stadium pitch which was treacherous underfoot despite the roof being closed.

It can’t be argued that Wales were short of preparation time because they had a fortnight together with a training camp in Poland. Yet still they looked heavy-legged.

Argentina, lest we forget, had not only just finished a gruelling schedule in the most demanding tournament of the lot – criss-crossing the southern hemisphere to take on the world’s best in the inaugural Rugby Championship – but most of their players have spent the intervening few weeks on club duty in France.

Like Wales, too, they were also without some key personnel.

Players like man-of-the-match Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe play all-year round and don’t have an off-season, yet just get on with it without moaning.

The Pumas were out on their feet near the end but Wales still couldn’t cross the whitewash against a dogged and proud defence.

It was exactly 11 years to the day since Felipe Contepomi scored 25 points to inspire the Pumas to a 30-16 triumph, their only previous success in Cardiff.

Lobbe and fellow back-row forwards Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Leonardo Senatore and replacement Tomas Leonardi were just too physical for their Welsh counterparts, ruling the roost at the breakdown.

Argentina won the match in the third quarter. They were behind 9-6 at the interval but went up a gear for the second half and began to make their territorial advantage and superior possession pay.

Wingers Juan Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho finished superbly when on the end of sparkling build-up play by both forwards and backs.

Rookie outside-half Nicolas Sanchez pressed home their superiority with a penalty and it wasn’t a surprise Wales were booed off by many in a crowd of 51,443 when French referee Romain Poite blew for the final whistle.

What also was glaringly clear – and something the Welsh Rugby Union must grasp now – was that Wales are paying the price for the region’s struggles in European competition.

Too many players have been out of form and their lack of confidence was evident when Argentina lifted the tempo and their short, off-loading game began to click.

Plus points were hard to spot. Debut-making prop Aaron Jarvis, deputising for injury casualty Adam Jones at tight-head prop, scrummaged strongly in the first half.

But the loss of Alun Wyn Jones a minute before the interval – hastening a reshuffle which saw back-row forward Josh Turnbull switch to lock with Rob McCusker coming on at blindside flanker – de-powered the scrum and they were on the back-foot during the second half.

Toby Faletau showed up as their sole ball-carrier of any note but was fighting a rearguard action.

The Welsh line-out was also suspect, although there wasn’t that many in the match and they had to live off scraps of possession.

Last season it looked as if Wales would be filling the bulk of the Lions squad for next summer’s tour of Australia but, carry on like this, and not may will not be boarding the plane Down Under.

They’ve got to pick themselves up quickly otherwise the rest of this autumn campaign will not make pretty watching.

For Argentina, despite their honesty, endeavour, humility and power, aren’t exactly the most clinical team in world rugby.

If New Zealand, who haven’t lost since before last year’s World Cup, turn it on like they did in Argentina recently, it will be a cricket score on November 24.

And Rugby Championship runners-up Australia also have a number of injured stars returning who would revel in the time, space and possession afforded the Pumas.

Wales caretaker coach Rob Howley has his work cut out because until McCusker ignored a glaring three-man overlap following a tap-penalty in the Argentine 22, they never looking like scoring a try.

It summed up the ineptitude and the lack-lustre nature of the performance with all their points coming from the four penalties successfully struck by Leigh Halfpenny.

Halfpenny is normally Wales’ most reliable player but he was also worryingly out of sorts with some of his play.

Wide men George North and Alex Cuthbert tried to make in-roads from the crumbs of ball they received but were marshalled superbly by Camacho and Imhoff.

Argentina took the lead in the fourth minute with Contepomi punishing the clumsy tackle of Ian Evans with a penalty from 37 metres.

Halfpenny levelled it after Jarvis won a penalty at a scrum just outside the Argentine 22 but they fell behind again when Sanchez put over a neat drop goal.

Contepomi was stretchered off in the 14th minute with a painful injury to his right knee after being trapped awkardly at a ruck, Grenoble’s Joaquin Tuculet replacing him.

Halfpenny made it 6-6 with a terrific penalty from a difficult angle and gave Wales the lead for the first time seconds later when Pumas hooker Eusebio Guinazu was penalised.

Sanchez missed back-to-back penalties early in the second half and Wales moved 12-6 ahead through Halfpenny after Guinazu didn’t make any attempt to roll away at a ruck.

The deficit was reduced to three points with another Sanchez drop goal and the visitors took a deserved lead when they attacked off the back of a scrum.

Substitute Horacio Agulla crashed up the middle and they recycled quickly, Leguizamon and Lobbe off-loading superbly for Imhoff to turn up in midfield and round Halfpenny with ease for Sanchez to convert.

They were back in front and more clever play from Imhoff soon forced Wales to concede a line-out.

The influential Lobbe was involved again as the Pumas created space out wide for Camacho.

The winger brilliantly caught a long pass one-handed from Tuculet and stretched his right arm to place the ball on the line as Halfpenny clobbered him.

Sanchez converted from almost on the touchline and added a penalty to kill the game off.

So it’s back to the drawing board for Howley because Wales need a different blueprint. Worrying times, indeed.


Read more: Wales Online http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/11/11/comment-wales-face-autumn-whitewash-unless-they-improve-dramatically-91466-32208022/#ixzz2BwY6kDog
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Post by Liam Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:36 pm

Tipuric for Warbs
Ryan in at 6, Shingler on the bench
Phillips for Knoyle
Hook for Preistland, Biggar on the bench
Beck for Roberts
Charteris for AWJ
Hibbard for Rees, Owens on bench

Those would be my changes, although for me Howley is so far out of his depth I don't think they'll make too much of a difference imo. The game plan on saturday was like the old days of aimless kicking with no pace injected into attacks. Defence was good as it normally is but apart from that, can't see too much changing without gatts being there. We'll beat Samoa, but it'll be close.

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Post by wales606 Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:50 pm

1. Paul James
2. Richard Hibbard
3. Aaron Jarvis
4. Ian Evans
5. Luke Charteris
6. Ryan Jones (c)
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. James Hook
11. George North
12. Ashley Beck
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Matthew Rees
17. Gethin Jenkins
18. Samson Lee
19. Alun Wyn Jones (Aaron Shingler/BD)
20. Sam Warburton
21. Tavis Knoyle
22. Dan Biggar
23. Scott Williams
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Post by Liam Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:55 pm

wales606 wrote:1. Paul James
2. Richard Hibbard
3. Aaron Jarvis
4. Ian Evans
5. Luke Charteris
6. Ryan Jones (c)
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. James Hook
11. George North
12. Ashley Beck
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Matthew Rees
17. Gethin Jenkins
18. Samson Lee
19. Alun Wyn Jones (Aaron Shingler/BD)
20. Sam Warburton
21. Tavis Knoyle
22. Dan Biggar
23. Scott Williams

I forgot about Paul James. Also is JD2 back? hope so anyway. I completely agree this is the team I would go for.

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Post by wales606 Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:58 pm

JD2 could be back, if not, Roberts of Williams come in and Liam Williams comes onto the bench.
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Post by TJ1 Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:25 pm

On Philips.

He looks good in his own play but because of the way he plays the guys outside of him are starved of quick ball.

If he passes it is slow, or he goes on a run and the ball is slow to recycle with no scrum half in position.

If you want to play him then you have to structure your game plan around him and a 9 man game but the welsh team need to get Cuthbert and North into the game IMO an play a 15 man game - and Philips is not the man to do this.

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Post by Guest Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:35 pm

1. James
2. Hibbard
3. Jarvis
4. AWJ
5. Evans
6. Jones
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. North
12. JD2 if fat, otherwise Beck
13. Williams
14. Halfpenny
15. Williams

16. Rees
17. Jenkins
18. Lee
19. Charteris
20. Shingler
21. Knoyle
22. Hook
23. Cuthbert

Our squad is not looking great, not massive impact to come off the bench, I would rather have Cuthbert come off the bench however later on in the game, hopefully it would open up a bit and hes more effective in broken play.

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Post by BlueNote Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:55 pm

For goodness' sake, Samoa are not Mickey Mouse opposition! Certainly not for Wales. That's misguided and disrespectful.

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Post by glamorganalun Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:47 pm

I had a read of the WM today ref G Jenkins stating the tactics were all wrong against Arg, i.e., trying to play rugby in the wrong areas and not putting pressure on them (kicking badly), this is an outspoken comment by Gethin, it is about time some of the players have had a go at the coaches for playing predictable rugby over the last 3 years or more. I doubt it will have any
impact on the way Wales play but why should the players take the kicking, Howley never takes any responsibility (just like Gatland).

The teams posted above are sensible selections by posters but history tells me/us there will only be changes if players are injured or coming back from injury.




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Post by RogerLewis Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:52 pm

Does anyone think that this blatant lack of creativity will force the Welsh selectors to consider Henson by the 2013 6N?

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Post by Seagultaf Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:10 pm

RogerLewis wrote:Does anyone think that this blatant lack of creativity will force the Welsh selectors to consider Henson by the 2013 6N?

Only if he now plays in the front 5 because that is where Wales lost the game!

Paul Thorburn got is right when he was interviewed by Radio Wales this morning, the selection was fine the tactics were wrong! In rugby you have to earn the right to spread the ball. In the second half Wales did not front up to the Argie forwards, it did not help that a lock had gone off and a flanker had come on, but games are won and lost by the forwards. Throwing out rubbish ball to the backs and hoping for a miracle wont work, now or ever!

I agree that Paul James is probably worth a shot at no1 and I dont have a problem with Hibbard, but Rees looked stronger on Saturday, both the scrum and lineout suffered when Hibbard came on. I suspect that Charteris will start if Alun Wyn is not fit and please lets have Bradley on the bench, just in case. Ryan to start at 6 if fit and I have to admit that Tipuric looked very good in his 10 min cameo but I am not sure that is enough to displace Warbs.

In the backs Phillips is the best 9 so he must start with Knoyle on the bench. I would not mind seeing Biggar get a shot at 10 or Priestland, if the ball he gets is as bad as it was on saturday it makes no difference, but please not Hook, he was woeful again on Saturday. In the centre Jon Davies to come in if fit, Beck to start only if both JD and Roberts are injured.

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Post by Morgannwg Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:21 pm

Paul is wrong to an extent because the selection was not fine!
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Post by wales606 Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:49 pm

IronMike wrote:
12. JD2 if fat

Bit harsh, but I guess we need someone to replace Roberts as a battering ram. Hope he keeps his speed though.

Wink
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Post by majesticimperialman Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:08 pm

Last season it looked as if Wales would be filling the bulk of the Lions squad for next summer’s tour of Australia but, carry on like this, and not may will not be boarding the plane Down Under.

Hmmmm, didn't i say something similar to this only saturday/sunday.

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Post by Guest Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:09 pm

wales606 wrote:
IronMike wrote:
12. JD2 if fat

Bit harsh, but I guess we need someone to replace Roberts as a battering ram. Hope he keeps his speed though.

Wink

I dont regret that typo, it made me laugh

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Post by Liam Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:16 am

majesticimperialman wrote:Last season it looked as if Wales would be filling the bulk of the Lions squad for next summer’s tour of Australia but, carry on like this, and not may will not be boarding the plane Down Under.

Hmmmm, didn't i say something similar to this only saturday/sunday.

Calm down, we lost to a good Argie side who have just come off playing against the top 3 teams in rugby. Wales could easily have come away from Oz 2-1 victors but again selection and tactical decisions cost us big time.

Similar story really Staurday, aimless kicking and poor selection. Let's not forget, it wasn't long back Wales won the GS, you can't just ignore that.

Wales still have quality players, there'll be plenty on the plane.

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Post by offload Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:02 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
offload wrote:Nice post Permian and I agree with your thoughts for the next game. Now I have sobered up and have calmed down I usually can see some positives to build on but not this time. Only 5 players deserve to keep their place against what will be stiff opposition next week. Unfortunately, I think we will see a management team in denial with a "no need to panic" and "give them a chance to put it right" message. Sometimes when you are off form, it doesn't matter how much class you have, you just can't find it!

What would your 5 be who remain offload?

For me, if all fit this would be the team for Samoa and NZ

James
Hibbard
Jarvis
Charteris
Evans
R Jones (c)
Faletau
Tipuric

Phillips
Biggar

North
JD
S Williams
Cuthbert

Halfpenny


Sorry to be so late coming back Beford.
I would actually retain 6. 1/2p, Cuthbert, North, Williams, Jarvis and Faletau.
I'd add Phillip, Biggar, J. Davies, R Jones, Tipuric, Charteris, B. Davies, Hibbard and James
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Post by glamorganalun Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:16 pm

offload wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
offload wrote:Nice post Permian and I agree with your thoughts for the next game. Now I have sobered up and have calmed down I usually can see some positives to build on but not this time. Only 5 players deserve to keep their place against what will be stiff opposition next week. Unfortunately, I think we will see a management team in denial with a "no need to panic" and "give them a chance to put it right" message. Sometimes when you are off form, it doesn't matter how much class you have, you just can't find it!

What would your 5 be who remain offload?

For me, if all fit this would be the team for Samoa and NZ

James
Hibbard
Jarvis
Charteris
Evans
R Jones (c)
Faletau
Tipuric

Phillips
Biggar

North
JD
S Williams
Cuthbert

Halfpenny


Sorry to be so late coming back Beford.
I would actually retain 6. 1/2p, Cuthbert, North, Williams, Jarvis and Faletau.
I'd add Phillip, Biggar, J. Davies, R Jones, Tipuric, Charteris, B. Davies, Hibbard and James

I suspect AWJ will be out so Charteris is likely to replace him and R Jones will replace the invisible man, I doubt there will be any other changes. I would not have B Davies instead of I Evans we have too many poor performing Cardiff players without adding to our problems. I go along with your other selections but as I said, it will not happen.

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Post by Morgannwg Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:23 pm

Yeah Bradley isn't a starter at all if his form is anything to go by. I would go as far as to say he is the only 2nd row we have that can make a latter half impact, so bench it is.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:27 pm

I am sure I read some that Bradley Davies was injured as well which is why he wasn't on bench last week.
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