The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Tom Johnson

+12
belovedfrosties
yappysnap
adambarney
Killer_B_6
nathan
thomh
lostinwales
Cumbrian
Chjw131
LondonTiger
Sgt_Pooly
GeordieFalcon
16 posters

Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Tom Johnson

Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:29 am

Currently in the England squad there a re a few players who are getting mixed reactions from fans.
One of these is Tom Johnson. I have maybe been critical of him previously...but the Fiji game showed me a few of his values that could be useful at this level.

I always thought Tom Johnson couldnt match the heavy weight games of some of the our competitor backs rows...so shouldnt have been there. I still dont think he can play that type of game at this level.

However in the Fiji game...his engine and workrate were the most noticeable. He was available for passes and link play..he made his carries, he tackled and tackled...not monster hits...but just effective 1st up tackles (which is exactly what you need) and he hit a rediculous number or rucks...and whilst his game isnt to blow away the opposition at ruck time...he just seemed to be a nuisance...slowing the ball allowing the defence to realign...

Now i know its Fiji...so not a huge amount should be taken in to this...but i shall be watching closely if he repeats this style of game against the Aussies on Saturday.

Did anyone else notice this or see a different game to me?
I was interested to see your HONEST views of him.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 25715
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:44 am

I do like TJ but just don't think he has the physicality to mix it with the big boys.

What we generally suffer with is slow ball at the breakdown and with the backrow usually the first forwards to arrive at the ruck we need abrasive powerful guys to clear out and give us a platform.

NZ seem to do this perfectly with McCaw, Read and Kaino(Messam now obviously) all big, strong, fit with great technique.

In our current backrow only Robshaw really does this to any great effect for me. TJ is great in the loose but just seems a bit powder puff when it comes to the tight stuff.

Going forward I think Callum Clark could be a huge player for England at BS.

Sgt_Pooly
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 35477
Join date : 2011-04-27

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:46 am

Ooohh Callum Clark...prepare for reaction there Pooly. Wink


GeordieFalcon

Posts : 25715
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by LondonTiger Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:47 am

I like him as a player.

The game has not come easy to him. He did not go to a posh school or enter an academy at 16. He has had to work for everything - with every step seemingly begrudged.

On saturday he showed up really well in the lineout (were Palmer/Launchbury even used as options?) and was everywhere across the pitch. He does a lot of things to a good standard. not a world beater - but right now best option we have at 6.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 23485
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:49 am

I know GF lol. I really don't like the bloke but he has the attributes to make an outstanding BS on the Int stage. He's just the type of player that could complete our backrow and give us some physicality to mix it up.

I couldn't imagine BdP & Alberts throwing Clark about like they did TJ and Hartley(another I don't think cuts the mustard).

Sgt_Pooly
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 35477
Join date : 2011-04-27

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Chjw131 Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:32 am

I like Tom Johnson a lot and I really admire his work ethic and the journey he's taken to get to the international stage.

For me though, international rugby is about being dispassionate when it comes to selection. What Johnson offers is some excellent link play, running and ball disruption. He lacks a bit of physicality at the top end and as you say Geordie this has a real effect against the top teams.

The questions I feel goes like this: Does Tom Johnson play better than Tom Croft? - This is for me his closest style back-rower. He's a fine player but needs to be in a well balanced back row.

Something like: 6. T Johnson 7. C Robshaw 8. J Crane would be the style to get the best out of Robshaw if you ask me. Not that i'd play Crane for England anyway. Croft is a little more versitile with who you can pair him with.

Going forward this would be my ideal back-row:

6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

20. T Croft

It has everything about it, very high workrate good link play (Robshaw was superb when standing in at SH or FH - see the Fiji game) and some storming carrying.

Johnson I don't feel balances the back-row too well with the other options. As an aside, I felt Waldrom was pretty uninspiring on the weekend.

Chjw131

Posts : 1714
Join date : 2011-08-08

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by LondonTiger Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:36 am

I just don't see Wood as a 6 - and feel he is more lightweight than Johnson.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 23485
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Cumbrian Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:50 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ooohh Callum Clark...prepare for reaction there Pooly. Wink


I suppose the question about Calum Clarke is, is he just too tainted to be picked? He's an outstanding talent, good in the carry good in the ruck and I genuinely thought he was working his way towards international honours. But I also think he’s put himself back AT LEAST a couple of years. Mind you, he’s only 23 so there is plenty of time to show he is a reformed character.
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4856
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 39
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by lostinwales Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:54 am

Do you want a good all rounder or someone who has some world class skills? He is a very competent player but a fit and on form Croft would be a better option. You also have Carl Fearns on the outskirts aswell

lostinwales
lostinwales
lostinwales

Posts : 12275
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:57 am

This is the thing we seem to have a number of "more athletic" 6's about at the moment...Croft, Wood and Johnson..who offer a different style...speed, energy, lineout etc.

Now im actually not against this style of 6...as i said...i thought Johnson caused Fiji no ends of problems just by being in their faces with his enegry and pace...and this could be very effective against the next 3 teams...but i think if this is what we select (i think Croft would be first choice if every back rower was fit) then we need someone more rounded at 8 (and i dont mean waldroms waistline).
We need an 8 who can pretty much do the lot...like i believe Robshaw can.

This leaves the 6 to get out and do exactly what Johnson or Croft want to do...hastle, harry etc...

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 25715
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by thomh Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:01 am

Robshaw's not the most powerful ball carrier around though. He's good, but not "international 8" good. With a wide-channels guy like Croft at 6 you probably need a tank at 8. I was very happy with the Croft/Robshaw/Morgan combination, perhaps with Haskell on the bench once he's had a (well-earned) rest.


Last edited by thomh on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:03 am; edited 1 time in total

thomh

Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:02 am

Yes Fearns (im a big fan) has been putting himself out there with his performances aswell...but would his style suit that which England look to be playing?

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 25715
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:05 am

Sorry Thomh

I wasnt suggesting Robshaw for 8...i was suggesting an actual 8 but with a good alround skillset...not just like Waldom whos a ball carrier...and supposedly Morgan..


GeordieFalcon

Posts : 25715
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:07 am

I don't think Robshaw has the pace to be an Int 8 GF.

I just feel to help us to provide quick ball and compete against the NZ/SA we need a bruising 6 or 8 whcih we don't really have in the squad. Could Fearns step up? I don't think so but he's the type of player that we could do with.

Sgt_Pooly
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 35477
Join date : 2011-04-27

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Guest Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:13 am

I watched Bath beat Exeter recently but Johnson was the best player on the pitch, partly because Fearns went off early and wasn't tracking him to knock his head off! But mainly because he is non stop motion and was involved in everything. However, Haskell is the best BS around and if he was in an AP top four side, there would be no debate.

England currently have almost too many options who could all perform for England, with a couple of wildcards thrown in too;
No.6 Haskell, Johnson, Croft, Clarke, Dowson
No.7 Robshaw, Wood, Armitage, Fearns, Scaysbrook, Saul
No.8 Morgan, Waldron, Crane, Easter, Narraway

Picking a balanced and on form back three out of that lot is the challenge for Lancaster.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by nathan Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:17 am

Cumbrian wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ooohh Callum Clark...prepare for reaction there Pooly. Wink


I suppose the question about Calum Clarke is, is he just too tainted to be picked? He's an outstanding talent, good in the carry good in the ruck and I genuinely thought he was working his way towards international honours. But I also think he’s put himself back AT LEAST a couple of years. Mind you, he’s only 23 so there is plenty of time to show he is a reformed character.

I don't think he is, he made a bad error in judgment, paid the price for it. We now all move on, of course like any other player he needs to earn his place. He needs a year or two keeping his head down and staying out of trouble.

nathan

Posts : 11021
Join date : 2011-06-14
Location : Leicestershire

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Killer_B_6 Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:06 am

Recwatcher wrote:I watched Bath beat Exeter recently but Johnson was the best player on the pitch, partly because Fearns went off early and wasn't tracking him to knock his head off! But mainly because he is non stop motion and was involved in everything. However, Haskell is the best BS around and if he was in an AP top four side, there would be no debate.

England currently have almost too many options who could all perform for England, with a couple of wildcards thrown in too;
No.6 Haskell, Johnson, Croft, Clarke, Dowson
No.7 Robshaw, Wood, Armitage, Fearns, Scaysbrook, Saul
No.8 Morgan, Waldron, Crane, Easter, Narraway

Picking a balanced and on form back three out of that lot is the challenge for Lancaster.

I honestly think that the likes of Clark, Dowson, Saull, Crane and Narraway are going to have to step up their game significantly in order to become realistic options. Injury and bad moves have potentially cost these players dearly. What we must consider is whether they have the potential to be world class as that is the level we need. Most of them are getting to their peak now and we can't keep waiting for them to step up, as we may have expected a few years ago. Despite the fact that he is our starting 6 now I'd put Tom Johnson in a group with the above.

Tom Wood and James Haskell are in danger of falling into this bracket if they do not find their top form soon (though the fact that they have already performed at test level gives them leeway).

Steffon Armitage is a good player but I think that we may need to build the backrow around him to be successful - we'd need a more athletic 8 in the Lobbe/Read style and I don't think we have one (damn you Alex Gray).

I rate Carl Fearns and think he is basically a better version of Haskell, covering 6, 7 and 8. I also think we have to consider the unique skills of Tom Croft, though I worry about his injury rate. Another player who is a definite future international and may well end up at 6 is Launchbury.

I think that Matt Kvesic and Billy Vunipola will be a part of the future England back row.

Kvesic was the star of the high quality u20 side that we produced in 2011 who are starting to make their impact on the AP now. He outplayed NZ openside Sam Cane in the final and is the future England 7 in my opinion. I think you'll see him move to Sarries/Tigers this summer and really kick on to be a top player.

Billy Vunipola at 6ft2 and nearly 20st is a physical beast like Willem Alberts and Mamuka Gorgodze. He lost a bit of weight over summer and is now making an impact in the Premiership. He has the physicality required to dominate opponents at international level. He is another player who may be on the move in summer.

I'd like to see the following in the Six Nations (Haskell/Wood could force their way into the reckoning at 6 if they find form):

6. Croft (Fearns if Croft is out)
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

20. B. Vunipola

Then for the summer tour, presuming only Robshaw is a lion:

6. Croft/Fearns
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan

20. B. Vunipola

(again, Haskell/Wood could force their way into the reckoning at 6 if they find form)

Killer_B_6

Posts : 72
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Essex, England

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by adambarney Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:21 am

6.fearns
7.robshaw
8.b.vunipola

that is some power.

adambarney

Posts : 102
Join date : 2012-01-25

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by yappysnap Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:00 pm

With Robshaw at 7 we have someone who does everything very well, meaning we can specialise more in the other two positions, i'd like to see Croft come back in at 6 and in the end Vunipola at 8.

yappysnap

Posts : 11872
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 34
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by belovedfrosties Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:03 pm

How i see Johnson is that he is a very good all rounder, he does everything and gets all over the pitch. My issues with him are two fold, firstly i do think hes a bit lightweight for an international, he missed plenty of tackles in SA. i know he wasn't the only one but he really stood out to me as being poor in this area. Secondly, whilst he does nearly everything i dont think he actually does anything to an international standard. All very good stuff but nothing that really stands out, to me, Robshaw does virtually everything but he also does them to a world class level.

TJ is unfortunate in that we have so many very good back rows, hes also getting on a bit and when you have the young up and coming players such as Fearns and Clarke, and then the older proven players like Croft and Haskell he doesn't really stand out.

Btw rumours abound that Wood and Launchberry are to start against Oz.

belovedfrosties

Posts : 358
Join date : 2011-05-26

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:16 am

Ah well, frosties, rumours are sometimes just that.

For those that didn't already know, I'll start by admitting to a certain level of bias, being an Exe fan and an admirer/respecter of Tom Johnson's play. But I can't help wonder when I read many of the comments above about 'not being international standard' etc whether those comments are more driven by the fact that TJ plays for the Chiefs. You'll recall that Exe are only recently in the top level, that almost everyone thought they would drop straight back down, that the same vast majority thought that they would suffer from 2ns season syndrome and a similar group feel they won't qualify for the Heino again this season cos it'll be too many battles on too many fronts. This indicates a direction of thinking that could easily (and subconsciously) lead to the conclusion that Exe players are not worthy of England caps - to me, it is completely flawed. Quite simply, Tom Johnson is one of the best, possibly currently the best, blindsides of English blood, and as such is fully deserving of his selection - his speed, his workrate in the loose and at the breakdown, his lineout work, generally his tackling too, are all of the highest calibre imo

Chief

AsLongAsBut100ofUs

Posts : 14129
Join date : 2011-03-26
Age : 109
Location : Devon/London

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Effervescing Elephant Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:27 am

clap Chief
Effervescing Elephant
Effervescing Elephant

Posts : 1629
Join date : 2011-03-25
Age : 46
Location : Exeter/Bristol/Brittany

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Chjw131 Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:16 am

Tom Wood is listed at 6'5 - 17st 2lbs. Now we know this isn't always evidence of how that is translated into power, but I don't think we can class Tom Wood in that truly 'athletic' mould. He puts a lot of work in in the tight and carries well in space. Haskell by contrast is listed as 6'4 1/2 and 17st 12lbs

With Wood and Robshaw doing some excellent tight work, Robshaw providing so truly excellent link play and Morgan hammering down the field I reckon that's a backrow with some excellent blend. Croft to come on as a super-sub.

Fearns of course is the power option at 6, but is he a line-out compromise being only 6ft and 18st 5 lbs?

Chjw131

Posts : 1714
Join date : 2011-08-08

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:20 am

"You'll recall that Exe are only recently in the top level, that almost everyone thought they would drop straight back down, that the same vast majority thought that they would suffer from 2ns season syndrome and a similar group feel they won't qualify for the Heino again this season cos it'll be too many battles on too many fronts. This indicates a direction of thinking that could easily (and subconsciously) lead to the conclusion that Exe players are not worthy of England caps - to me, it is completely flawed."

I don't think this is true AsLong, certainly from what I've read anyway.

I can understand people thinking this before a player is capped but TJ has played enough to be judged by his performances on the Int stage now.

Sgt_Pooly
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 35477
Join date : 2011-04-27

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by ChequeredJersey Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:21 am

nathan wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ooohh Callum Clark...prepare for reaction there Pooly. Wink


I suppose the question about Calum Clarke is, is he just too tainted to be picked? He's an outstanding talent, good in the carry good in the ruck and I genuinely thought he was working his way towards international honours. But I also think he’s put himself back AT LEAST a couple of years. Mind you, he’s only 23 so there is plenty of time to show he is a reformed character.

I don't think he is, he made a bad error in judgment, paid the price for it. We now all move on, of course like any other player he needs to earn his place. He needs a year or two keeping his head down and staying out of trouble.

I don't think he made a bad error in judgment, I think he tried to commit GBH, and not his first somewhat brutish act on the field, and he showed no remorse for it. I don't think he's paid for it yet at all, he missed, what, a month and a bit of rugby?
ChequeredJersey
ChequeredJersey

Posts : 18707
Join date : 2011-12-23
Age : 33
Location : London, UK

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Chjw131 Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:32 am

I would have real reservations about Clark being selected any time soon. As Chequered has pointed out many don't feel his ban was particularly punitive for a deliberately cinical and foul act.

By contrast David Attoub and Julien Dupuy got bans totalling years. I know that was gouging, but if you can't put breaking someone's arm in that bracket then what can you?

I take the point his ban has been decided and served, and if we are to respect the system we should accept that. In this case though I feel there's not been a proper resolution.

Clark will be picked for the Argentina tour and if he performs well enough there Lancs will have him in the EPS in August like a shot. He likes him a lot and as we've seen with others that he favours they will get selected regardless of other factors.

Chjw131

Posts : 1714
Join date : 2011-08-08

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by GeordieFalcon Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:09 am

Asbo,

I dont think its a case of people diliking Johnson...on the conrary most acknowledge he's beena huge part of Exters rising to a quality premiership team.

Maybe some of us dont appreciate quite what he does...his game so to speak..
Where some people are looking for Brute power from him...they are completely missing his actual attributes that make him effective...

Obviously Rowntree isnt one of them....and if i see a similar performance from him on Saturday as i did last Saturday then i will be changing my mind completely.....

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 25715
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Poorfour Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:28 am

AsLong, the tribal elders counsel patience. This time last year, few outside Quins fans thought Robshaw was international class. Time on the pitch has changed a lot of opinions. If Johnson has it, too, time will tell.
Poorfour
Poorfour

Posts : 5131
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

Tom Johnson Empty Re: Tom Johnson

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum