The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Perspective

+16
Impossible Standards
offload
aucklandlaurie
Biltong
HammerofThunor
Hookisms and Hyperbole
Yoda
anotherworldofpain
Shifty
tecphobe
Geordie
mckay1402
Mr Taff
Coleman
Cyril
thebluesmancometh
20 posters

Go down

Perspective Empty Perspective

Post by thebluesmancometh Fri 16 Nov 2012, 9:26 pm

First and foremost I have to give credit to a very good Samoa team, deserved their win!!!

Next, can we please acknowledge that Welsh rugby is well and truly in trouble!!!

Then I need to emphasise to all the people I argued with over the last week who bigged up Argentina etc, does another 26 points conceded no line breaks and no 22 visits support my argument that as good as Argentina are Wales are not in games. We aren't performing and we would be beaten by tadpole nations at present!

Also to those who ridiculed me for suggesting the 8 changes were wrong, where are you?

I'm not usually a gloater but my word this was very much expected, I called it all week and pre game after the Howley interview.

Lets see who the big guys are now, those who called me a wind up, come on in WUMs, HERSH, AWOP, Duty, Roger lets all have a party!

thebluesmancometh

Posts : 8358
Join date : 2011-05-04

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Cyril Fri 16 Nov 2012, 9:27 pm

Worrying times indeed.

Cyril

Posts : 7162
Join date : 2012-11-16

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Coleman Fri 16 Nov 2012, 9:31 pm

We look inept. No club form, no international form. Don't think i can watch next week. Thought the age of Wales blood baths was over.

Coleman

Posts : 1554
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Cardiff

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by thebluesmancometh Fri 16 Nov 2012, 9:33 pm

Theyve only just started, unless you ask a fair few on here who claim the game is thriving!!

thebluesmancometh

Posts : 8358
Join date : 2011-05-04

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Mr Taff Fri 16 Nov 2012, 9:35 pm

L

O

L

Sad


Mr Taff

Posts : 76
Join date : 2012-11-07

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by mckay1402 Fri 16 Nov 2012, 9:38 pm

I genuinely see another late 80's 90's period coming up. the grand slams and world cup have clearly been papering over some enormous cracks. I am pretty certain I won't be watching the sickening debacle against NZ next weekend.
mckay1402
mckay1402

Posts : 2512
Join date : 2011-04-27
Age : 47
Location : Market Harborough

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Geordie Fri 16 Nov 2012, 9:40 pm

Ill not resort to wumming....

Whats worrying for you guys should be the amount of control or influence Gatland seems to have.

You would have thought that the coaches coming in could maybes not improve...but maintain the squads performances...and the squad themselves have enough leadership to focus...but it appears the contrary....

They need to find themselves very quicly this week...or any confidence / morale they have left will be blown out of the water next Saturday....

Geordie

Posts : 28323
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Coleman Fri 16 Nov 2012, 9:44 pm

Who knew that one man (Gatland) actually had that much influence. Because not much has changed. Same set up minus Gats. Same Polish training beforehand. Most of the same players. JD2 and Adam do not make us world beaters on their own. I'd love to see Wales playing with the type of aggression and desire that Samoa and Argentina did. Sometimes I wonder if some of them actually want to be there.

Coleman

Posts : 1554
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Cardiff

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Geordie Fri 16 Nov 2012, 9:51 pm

But these are the same players who in the Spring were being hailed for just those qualities...

All of us can be fickle...ive done it myself...hailing a player before chasting him for a poor game the next week.

Its a poor couple of games...coming off the mixed pros and cons in the summer tour.

They just need to get that focus back...that belief..

And more importantly...we keep hearing about North etc NOT just being a crash merchant...well of late they have been just that...and NEED to start hitting that spaces again...

Simples...

Geordie

Posts : 28323
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by tecphobe Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:04 pm

my opinion Wales have a lot of great athletes but are lacking in rugby brains. Howley has no coaching pedigree and minimal experience. So once Samoa matched wales physically they had no plan B. Samoa will never be found wanting physically if Biggar had stayed on wales would of won as he would of had the nouce to play the corners a game were Samoa were walking from line out to line-out would of suited Wales perfectly.

tecphobe

Posts : 423
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : cardiff/ irish born

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by thebluesmancometh Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:08 pm

Georide

How does North and co hit spaces when always surrounded by numerous tacklers, thats not player deficiancy is tactical deficiency!!!

thebluesmancometh

Posts : 8358
Join date : 2011-05-04

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Shifty Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:15 pm

Wales haven't lost their ability, but they have lost their confidence and Wales are a confidence team. With confidence we can win grand slams and push the big 3 close. Without it we can win wooden spoons and get soundly beaten at home by Samoa and Argentina.

I do worry though that the WRU has let Gatland off to coach the Lions and left no captain at the wheel for us. Howley shouldn't be getting a coaching education at the expense of the Welsh team.
Shifty
Shifty

Posts : 7393
Join date : 2011-04-26
Age : 44
Location : Kenfig Hill, Bridgend

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by anotherworldofpain Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:15 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:First and foremost I have to give credit to a very good Samoa team, deserved their win!!!

Next, can we please acknowledge that Welsh rugby is well and truly in trouble!!!

Then I need to emphasise to all the people I argued with over the last week who bigged up Argentina etc, does another 26 points conceded no line breaks and no 22 visits support my argument that as good as Argentina are Wales are not in games. We aren't performing and we would be beaten by tadpole nations at present!

Also to those who ridiculed me for suggesting the 8 changes were wrong, where are you?

I'm not usually a gloater but my word this was very much expected, I called it all week and pre game after the Howley interview.

Lets see who the big guys are now, those who called me a wind up, come on in WUMs, HERSH, AWOP, Duty, Roger lets all have a party!

I think Samoa are a very good side who are continually under-rated. Wales played typical Welsh rugby as they have been for a while; relying too much on big smash runners in the backs - Roberts, North, Cuthbert. They've lost the scything edge with the retirement of Williams and are a bit too one dimensional to offer serious threat at the moment. Couple this with Rhys Priestland's obsession with being the NH's answer to Morne Steyn and you have a recipe for losses to sides with solid defense, solid set piece and a cutting edge on counter attack.

But respect Bluesman, a dignified post and it takes some subtlety to pitch these two unexpected losses as some kind of personal victory!

anotherworldofpain

Posts : 2803
Join date : 2012-04-05
Age : 44
Location : St John's Wood, London

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by thebluesmancometh Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:21 pm

Well It would take some subtlety if I hadn't called both games as losses (moments pre kick off aside when I always have a surge of adrenilin and claim wales will win)

The selection in the first game was all wrong, making 8 changes for Samoa was wrong, we couldn't have sabotaged ourselves any more if we tried, and now in 160 minutes we have got near nobodies 22, let alone try line on our own merit!!!

I was called all sorts in the last week, including a wun for claiming wales would lose and the prof game is dying in wales, yet these people will go missing now!!

I'm pretty sure this result puts the Argy game into perspective, Argentina as I have said a thousand times are strong but limited. The results are wales underperforming rather than Argentina and Samoas progression (even though both have)

Tonight, as of last week Canada would've beaten us.

thebluesmancometh

Posts : 8358
Join date : 2011-05-04

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Yoda Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:23 pm

Many teams would have struggled to compete with Samoa tonight its the most drilled and cohesive I've seem them play. This is actually really good for world rugby, competitive PI teams will raise the level and excitement of the global game.

Yoda

Posts : 660
Join date : 2011-10-19
Location : Sunny Hampshire

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Geordie Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:26 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Georide

How does North and co hit spaces when always surrounded by numerous tacklers, thats not player deficiancy is tactical deficiency!!!

True...but North and Cuthbert have the skills to offload...Welsh players should be seeing this...and supporting...if theres numerous players hanging on the neck of North then theres space elsewhere.....

Geordie

Posts : 28323
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by thebluesmancometh Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:28 pm

Samoa were good tonight, but a few tactical kicks aside they were Samoa!!!

They were given lineout ball and capitolised from a pathetic excuse for a scrum, but in the loose and around the breakdown they were reckless and thoughtless.

Like Argentina they will be beaten by teams who actually turn up, and they actually looked a little rop against Canada at times, giving away silly penalties, and the set peice wasnt great

thebluesmancometh

Posts : 8358
Join date : 2011-05-04

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Geordie Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:29 pm

Shifty wrote:Wales haven't lost their ability, but they have lost their confidence and Wales are a confidence team. With confidence we can win grand slams and push the big 3 close. Without it we can win wooden spoons and get soundly beaten at home by Samoa and Argentina.

I do worry though that the WRU has let Gatland off to coach the Lions and left no captain at the wheel for us. Howley shouldn't be getting a coaching education at the expense of the Welsh team.

I think thats a HUGE comment actually Shifty....when Wales are bad they are just bad....but when they're good they can be Brilliant...and win Grand Slams etc....YET they dont BEAT the SH teams...they just run them close...whilst even Scotland have got over that barrier and beat them...

Whats the block thats stopping them doing this...

Geordie

Posts : 28323
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by thebluesmancometh Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:31 pm

Geordie

Are you basing this on the summer, because wales have beaten Aus and SA in recent years!

thebluesmancometh

Posts : 8358
Join date : 2011-05-04

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Hookisms and Hyperbole Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:36 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Geordie

Are you basing this on the summer, because wales have beaten Aus and SA in recent years!

Ireland have beat them both over recent years. What has that got to do with the dirge we are producing now? Not very much. I would say Wales are as dreadful as we are presently, but that would just insult you. Just imagine how bad you would be if Halfpenny wasn't kicking well?

Hookisms and Hyperbole

Posts : 1653
Join date : 2011-09-13

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by HammerofThunor Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:39 pm

Define recent. Wasn't your only SA win longer ago than England's World Cup? Wales last beat Australia in 2008. Before that 2005. And before that 1987. Since Wales' last Australian win Scotland have beaten Australia twice (home and away) and South Africa once.

HammerofThunor

Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Biltong Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:44 pm

I am of the opinion that North and Cuthbert are being utilised incorrectly in the Welsh attack.

Your wing isn't suppose to break 6 tackles in the midfield, it is a waste of their natrual attibutes, a winger is supposed to be able to run with ball in hand in open space, one on one with the defender, there he can use his pace, skill etc in the one on one situations.

To have North or Cuthbert running a crashball into the midfield, is wasting their speed, you slow down when you try to break one tackle after another, not so in space.
Biltong
Biltong
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by HammerofThunor Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:46 pm

Isn't this Jamie Roberts all over again. Big bugger who bashed through the midfield. After a season teams nullified him and the Welsh camp just kept trying to do the same thing over and over even when it was clear it wasn't working. Wales get another couple of big buggers, this time on the wing and the same thing has happened. They seem really REALLY reluctant to change things up. Use players as decoys, etc.

HammerofThunor

Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by anotherworldofpain Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:49 pm

Spot on Biltong. This obsession with "big boys" coming into the mid field is starting to look like some kind of compensatory mental condition rather than a strategy for winning a game of rugby.

Wales desperately need ball players and above all some set piece moves and attacking structure. It's just so predictable at the moment, bosh up the middle and then go lateral.

anotherworldofpain

Posts : 2803
Join date : 2012-04-05
Age : 44
Location : St John's Wood, London

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by thebluesmancometh Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:50 pm

Talk about decoy I don't think I saw one willing back run a decoy line, I didn't see any one offering themselves on the crash, and I didn't see one usefull offload... AGAIN

thebluesmancometh

Posts : 8358
Join date : 2011-05-04

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Hookisms and Hyperbole Fri 16 Nov 2012, 10:51 pm

For Wales 2012 read Ireland 2009. Grand Slams won on the back of effective but ultimately nothing better than functional rugby. There was a need to expand our game from just basic soaking up pressure and hitting on the counter attack. The test for Wales was to expand on their gameplan. We haven't moved a single step on. Wales don't look to either. And the WRU allowed your head coach a sabbatical to coach the Lions. Absolute lunacy.

Hookisms and Hyperbole

Posts : 1653
Join date : 2011-09-13

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 17 Nov 2012, 7:30 am


Perspective....

What Samoa did to Wales is nothing to what Warren Gatland's going to do when he gets hold of them...

aucklandlaurie

Posts : 7561
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 67
Location : Auckland

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by offload Sat 17 Nov 2012, 9:06 am

Here's a different perspective:
1. Wales payed two decent games at the last World Cup against SA and Ireland, only winning one. Wales failed to put France away even though France were poor. The Welsh decision making was awful. 4th place flattered us
2. Wales were completely outplayed by Australia at the MS and were more satisfied with Shane's farewell try than disappointed with their performance.
3. Wales did not impress during their GS win other than in brief patches. Italy and Scotland were very poor, the French did not turn up and Ireland and England lost very tight games. Yes Wales we're champions but hardly that convincing. North, Lydiate and Halfpenny and Davies were the only shining stars.
4. Against a weakened but determined Australia, Wales failed to win a single test. There was no go forward, slow ball, awful kicking and awful decision making. Players like Faletau, Warburton, Priestland, Roberts, Phillips, were way off pace and few have found much form since. Priestland has not controlled a game in a Welsh shirt since the opening games of the World Cup.

Conclusion:
Wales have flattered to deceive. In the last 5 test matches (plus a couple of others) they have been slow in thought and deed. Wales can compete on the world stage when the best XV players are available and on form. There is very little strength in depth. Argentina and Samoa are improving whilst Wales has gone backwards in almost every respect. During this time the professional regional game in Wales has also declined and is less competitive than two years ago.

Many Wesh fans are of course just as delusional as ever and will talk about blips rather than the crisis that should be clear to all. Perhaps when all the regions are out of Europe, the national team has lost 7 in a row and there are no decent players left playing in the country, the governing body will finally start to ask some questions and show some accountability to put things right.
offload
offload

Posts : 2292
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 107
Location : On t'internet

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Impossible Standards Sat 17 Nov 2012, 10:08 am

I'm pretty sure this result puts the Argy game into perspective, Argentina as I have said a thousand times are strong but limited. The results are wales underperforming rather than Argentina and Samoas progression (even though both have)

This is a contradiction. And I disagree. Samoa have introduced technical advisers to improve their set piece. That was evident last night and in the world cup. This has lifed their overall game. And the Pumas had just played the rugby championship, 6 weeks of playing the top 3 teams in the world. This also showed evidence in the speed and intensity they displayed against Wales
Impossible Standards
Impossible Standards

Posts : 538
Join date : 2011-05-03

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Impossible Standards Sat 17 Nov 2012, 10:13 am

Isn't this Jamie Roberts all over again. Big bugger who bashed through the midfield. After a season teams nullified him and the Welsh camp just kept trying to do the same thing over and over even when it was clear it wasn't working. Wales get another couple of big buggers, this time on the wing and the same thing has happened. They seem really REALLY reluctant to change things up. Use players as decoys, etc.

Couldn't agree more Hammer! We have actually become dare I say it...'Boring to watch'.
Impossible Standards
Impossible Standards

Posts : 538
Join date : 2011-05-03

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by ultra Sat 17 Nov 2012, 10:47 am

Not being Welsh I'm not positive in this statement BUT is it the case that some of these guys are the welsh equivelent of our premiership footballers? I've just watched the game so couldn't comment last night but some players just didn't seem to be team orientated......almost didn't want to be there.
Maybe living off adulation?

ultra

Posts : 358
Join date : 2011-05-03
Location : The land of whippets and leek shows

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by bedfordwelsh Sat 17 Nov 2012, 11:24 am

Impossible Standards wrote:
Isn't this Jamie Roberts all over again. Big bugger who bashed through the midfield. After a season teams nullified him and the Welsh camp just kept trying to do the same thing over and over even when it was clear it wasn't working. Wales get another couple of big buggers, this time on the wing and the same thing has happened. They seem really REALLY reluctant to change things up. Use players as decoys, etc.

Couldn't agree more Hammer! We have actually become dare I say it...'Boring to watch'.

Rather than being reluctant to change things I think its a case that they not know how to or haven't the intelligence to do so.

It was obvious from the off in both games that our kicking game was poor yet we persisted with it do the death and it got us know where.
bedfordwelsh
bedfordwelsh
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 9962
Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 56

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Impossible Standards Sat 17 Nov 2012, 11:31 am

Bedford, what worries me most... watch Howley's post match interview on the WRU site. He mentions that they believe in what they are doing and they aren't going to change it. When a journo rephrased what lemi said about us being preditctable in attack he just seemed to laugh it off as if there wasn't an issue.

After the Aus games in June I felt we were going backwards from the WC, even the GS wasn't inspiring apart from the irish game and I predicted we would have a bad run of form. Our inability or refusal to attack space, support, offload and create space is starting to come to fruition. It's going to be a long season!
Impossible Standards
Impossible Standards

Posts : 538
Join date : 2011-05-03

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by damage_13 Sat 17 Nov 2012, 11:36 am

only slightly worried for the welsh, they'll get over it

damage_13

Posts : 682
Join date : 2011-09-08
Location : Southampton, England

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by HammerofThunor Sat 17 Nov 2012, 11:43 am

Impossible Standards wrote:Bedford, what worries me most... watch Howley's post match interview on the WRU site. He mentions that they believe in what they are doing and they aren't going to change it. When a journo rephrased what lemi said about us being preditctable in attack he just seemed to laugh it off as if there wasn't an issue.

After the Aus games in June I felt we were going backwards from the WC, even the GS wasn't inspiring apart from the irish game and I predicted we would have a bad run of form. Our inability or refusal to attack space, support, offload and create space is starting to come to fruition. It's going to be a long season!

Why would you need to change it? It worked in the past so it MUST work in the future.

Game is changing pretty fast these days. Something like having a big player breaking tackles is relatively easy to counter without leaving massive holes if you have the time to develop you defensive system. That's why you have to change things around.

HammerofThunor

Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by anotherworldofpain Sat 17 Nov 2012, 11:48 am

Wales play very narrow and then when they go wide they go too lateral. You need guys holding the defense and then use the ball to hold and draw across the defense the make the overlap. It's pretty simple stuff.

At the moment the opposition can contract for the inevitable 4 crash phases then mark up wide with a simple drift because the ball always goes along the line to the wing.

anotherworldofpain

Posts : 2803
Join date : 2012-04-05
Age : 44
Location : St John's Wood, London

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Hood83 Sat 17 Nov 2012, 12:03 pm

Biltong wrote:I am of the opinion that North and Cuthbert are being utilised incorrectly in the Welsh attack.

Your wing isn't suppose to break 6 tackles in the midfield, it is a waste of their natrual attibutes, a winger is supposed to be able to run with ball in hand in open space, one on one with the defender, there he can use his pace, skill etc in the one on one situations.

To have North or Cuthbert running a crashball into the midfield, is wasting their speed, you slow down when you try to break one tackle after another, not so in space.

But this is the problem, where is the flyer in the Welsh team? Cuthbert and North are no slouches, but they're no speed-merchants either. They are, predominantly, crash-bang wingers. There is no-one in that team with any acceleration.

Hood83

Posts : 2751
Join date : 2011-06-12

Back to top Go down

Perspective Empty Re: Perspective

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum