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My Ranking of how the 6 Nations Teams did in the AIs

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Post by Duty281 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 7:37 pm

Now that England have beaten the World Champions, and Wales have been edged out by the Aussies, the rankings have altered slightly. So here goes:

1) England
2) France
3) Ireland
4) Italy
5) Scotland
6) Wales

In first place England, a hammering of Fiji was carried out before being narrowly defeated by Australia and South Africa in games that they should have done better results-wise, particularly in the game last week. But then they hammered New Zealand and stunned the rugby World.

Then I think France were the second best NH team in the Six Nations. They comfortably beat Australia and Argentina before beating Samoa by a narrow margin. France will be delighted with the way the Australian game went.

Then Ireland, beaten by the Saffers by a four-point margin and then hammering Argentina. Only played 2 official games, surely that is a bad thing for Ireland.

Surprisingly it's then Italy in fourth, a decent five point win over Tonga was followed by a hammering by the All Blacks. They'll be pleased by the performance in the final game though, they were so close to upsetting the odds against Australia.

Wales will be most disappointed. The Grandslam Champions were beaten and outplayed by Argentina, Samoa and New Zealand. Then beaten by Australia, 0/4.

Scotland will be very disappointed, a brave and courageous performance against New Zealand - scoring three tries - was then turned into another brave performance against the Saffers where they were beaten by 11 points, a respectable margin. They finished by losing to Tonga, a bitter disappointment for them.

Based on the AIs, I think the Six Nations will finish like this:

1) England
2) France
3) Ireland
4) Wales
5) Scotland
6) Italy


Last edited by Duty281 on Sat 01 Dec 2012, 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Morgannwg Sun 25 Nov 2012, 7:46 pm

And here are the official rankings for the non-delusionals;

1. France
2. Ireland
3. England
4. Wales
5. Italy
6. Scotland

Subject to change next week. 2-6 could also change around.

As for the Six Nations prediction - Laugh laughing laughing laughing

You're possibly the most delusional fan I have ever come across.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 7:48 pm

I knew this was going to turn into an Anti-English thread, but not quite this soon. Tell me Morgan, on what basis do Wales have to be ranked above Italy this autumn?

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Post by Morgannwg Sun 25 Nov 2012, 7:51 pm

Because we're a better team than Italy. How can you say they're better than Wales through nearly beating Aus??? They should be ranked above Scotland aswell. Although I do see your point, debatable that we could be ranked joint last with Scotland, except we wouldn't have lost to Tonga on saturday.
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Post by Biltong Sun 25 Nov 2012, 7:51 pm

In my opinion you can put France first and the rest all in 5th place.

In fact you might put Ireland a step above the rest, apart from France they are the only other nation to have beaten a Rugby Championship team.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 7:53 pm

Morgannwg wrote:Because we're a better team than Italy. How can you say they're better than Wales through nearly beating Aus??? They should be ranked above Scotland aswell. Although I do see your point, debatable that we could be ranked joint last with Scotland, except we wouldn't have lost to Tonga on saturday.

But Wales haven't showed that this autumn, they've been outplayed all 3 times against Argentina, Samoa and New Zealand and lost 3 times. Italy have an actual victory over Tonga, as well a decent performance against Australia.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 25 Nov 2012, 7:54 pm

Morgannwg wrote:And here are the official rankings for the non-delusionals;

1. France
2. Ireland
3. England
4. Wales
5. Italy
6. Scotland

Subject to change next week. 2-6 could also change around.

As for the Six Nations prediction - Laugh laughing laughing laughing

You're possibly the most delusional fan I have ever come across.

the Official IRB rankings will see England end above Ireland no matter the result with NZ so:

Fr
Eng
Ire
Wal
Italy
Sco


On AI performances France should be favourites for 6Ns with England, Ireland and Wales neck and neck for second place.

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Post by Morgannwg Sun 25 Nov 2012, 7:59 pm

Did England get to be ranked 2nd then with their 'decent' performances against Aus and SA? But that would be just your sole opinion, which I assume from what I have read on here.

LT, I was referring to the official rankings of the how the 6 Nations teams did this autumn, not the IRB RWC group seedings. Smile
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Post by Duty281 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:01 pm

2 decent performances by England against top-tier opposition and a hammering of Fiji. Ireland had one decent display against top-tier opposition and hammered Argentina. England just about did better in the AIs than Ireland.

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Post by Morgannwg Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:11 pm

They really didn't. Ireland's 2nd team did a better job on Fiji too.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:13 pm

Which game are Fiji going to be more motivated for?

Ireland A or
England at the Home of Rugby in front of a sell-out crowd?

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Post by Dubbelyew L Overate Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:17 pm

Change in IRB ranking points during AI's

France +2.04
Ireland +0.37
Italy +0.21
England -2.02
Scotland -2.14
Wales -3.31

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Post by overlordofthewest Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:18 pm

I would think Ireland have done better than England. Both murdered Fiji, the fact that Ireland didn't put out a first team against them goes in their favour really. Both narrowly lost to SA but Id give Ireland the edge after a cracking display against Argentina whereas England lost to a demoralized Australia.

So for me
France
Ireland
England








Wales,Scotland&Italy all have had a bad autumn so far.


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Post by LondonTiger Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:18 pm

Morgannwg wrote:Did England get to be ranked 2nd then with their 'decent' performances against Aus and SA? But that would be just your sole opinion, which I assume from what I have read on here.

LT, I was referring to the official rankings of the how the 6 Nations teams did this autumn, not the IRB RWC group seedings. Smile

there are no official rankings for AI performance - just our subjective opinions.

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Post by Intotouch Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:19 pm

I would hope that Ireland will do much better in the 6 nations with so many currently injured players available. (O'Brien, Kearney, O'Driscoll, O'Connell, Ferris, Best etc) But really Ireland have been so inconsistent over the past couple of years England do deserve to be ranked higher.

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Post by Morgannwg Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:30 pm

Duty281 wrote:Which game are Fiji going to be more motivated for?

Ireland A or
England at the Home of Rugby in front of a sell-out crowd?

So now it's back to the 'Everyone saves their best game for England because we are so amaaaayyzing' mentality? That's just arrogant.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:33 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Which game are Fiji going to be more motivated for?

Ireland A or
England at the Home of Rugby in front of a sell-out crowd?

So now it's back to the 'Everyone saves their best game for England because we are so amaaaayyzing' mentality? That's just arrogant.

It's Ireland A, Morgan. Use some common sense.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:33 pm

What makes you think that the results of the Ais, will carry forward in to the 6ns?

I would like to think that England will come first in the 6ns. Rather than second place that is the result so far.

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Post by Cyril Sun 25 Nov 2012, 8:41 pm

Up to now...

France have had the best Autumn by a fair way. Beating Aus and Argentina has restored a little bit of NH pride.

Ireland had an excellent result against Argentina and probably a bit disappointed to fall away against SA. Could have done with another game against top-class opposition

England - a bit disappointing with two losses against Aus and SA. Still a fair few questions still to be answered. Not humbled, but hardly set the world on fire either. Good win v Fiji but that was the very least expected.

Italy - a good display versus Aus but otherwise par.

Scotland/Wales - an Autumn to forget.

Still time for things to change though

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Post by InjuredYetAgain Sun 25 Nov 2012, 9:50 pm

6th is overly generous for us, I think
Realistically, France are streets ahead and I can't see that changing too much as none of the home nations are going to have any world class players for the 6N who may have missed the AIs

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Post by emack2 Mon 26 Nov 2012, 11:15 am

On the results only France and Ireland can be happy,valiant losses don`t cut it.England loss to Australia looked narrow and could have gone the other way.
BUT be truthful they were completely outplayed by OZ.SA in poor conditions
do what SA always do play direct route one Rugby.Solid Defence,backed up by
solid kicking game.It may not look as pretty as the AB/OZ/France style of counter attack but it can be very effective.3-0 with a make shift team is stll impressive.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 01 Dec 2012, 4:47 pm

So how have your perspectives changed after the games this week?

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Post by nathan Sat 01 Dec 2012, 4:49 pm

Morgannwg wrote:And here are the official rankings for the non-delusionals;

1. France
2. Ireland
3. England
4. Wales
5. Italy
6. Scotland

Subject to change next week. 2-6 could also change around.

As for the Six Nations prediction - Laugh laughing laughing laughing

You're possibly the most delusional fan I have ever come across.

Whistle

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Post by Duty281 Sat 01 Dec 2012, 4:51 pm

nathan wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:And here are the official rankings for the non-delusionals;

1. France
2. Ireland
3. England
4. Wales
5. Italy
6. Scotland

Subject to change next week. 2-6 could also change around.

As for the Six Nations prediction - Laugh laughing laughing laughing

You're possibly the most delusional fan I have ever come across.

Whistle

I don't think Morgan will be back on this thread - can't think why though!

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Post by TJ1 Sat 01 Dec 2012, 4:52 pm

Morgannwg wrote:Because we're a better team than Italy. How can you say they're better than Wales through nearly beating Aus??? They should be ranked above Scotland aswell. Although I do see your point, debatable that we could be ranked joint last with Scotland, except we wouldn't have lost to Tonga on saturday.

there is bugger all between them. Scotland and Wales have the same issue in playing below their potential / less than the sum of the parts

Be interesting to see how the rankings are but in 6N terms IMO its

France
England ( almost level)
no one
No one
Ireland / Wales / Scotland / Italy joint last

Whistle

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Post by Morgannwg Sat 01 Dec 2012, 4:59 pm

Not sure who should be top of the list between England and France. France won all their games and the opposition was very good. England beat NZ quite well.

I can't see why England would lose against Aus and SA then beat NZ. Erm

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 01 Dec 2012, 5:04 pm

England showed they really can do it....but consistency is an issue....but it bodes well for fans of the red....

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Post by bedfordwelsh Sat 01 Dec 2012, 5:05 pm

If we don't win the wooden spoon (can you call it winning) then I will be surprised.

Most would say the battle for the spoon currently lies between us Scotland and Italy, well we are playing both those teams plus France away so no guaranteed wins there.

Then with Ireland and England at home I can't see us winning any of them either.
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Post by Pot Hale Sat 01 Dec 2012, 5:05 pm

Duty281 wrote:So how have your perspectives changed after the games this week?


I'd rate each team by the amount of wins they got from their matches

France 3 wins from 3
South Africa 3 wins from 3
NZ - 3 wins from 4
Australia 3 wins from 4
Ireland 2 wins from 3
England 2 wins from 4
Samoa 1 wins from 2
Argentina 1 win from 3
Italy 1 win from 3
Tonga 1 win from 3
Scotland 0 wins from 3
Wales 0 wins from 4
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Post by Shifty Sat 01 Dec 2012, 5:08 pm

The November series will have no bearing what so ever on the 6 Nations, Wales will have half a team back which will boost them no end, and frankly our rugby style is much more suited to 6 Nations teams.

Wales need to make a lot of changes though.
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Post by George Carlin Sat 01 Dec 2012, 5:09 pm

1. France
2. England
3. Ireland
4. Scotland
5. Wales
6. Italy

thumbsup
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Post by trebellbobaggins Sat 01 Dec 2012, 5:21 pm

Ireland higher? I think a spanking of nz after very close failures puts eng above them when they didn't beat any top side.

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Sat 01 Dec 2012, 5:28 pm

It's not France's fault they didn't play the ABs and get the opportunity to beat them. They won 3 from 3 against good opposition and spanked Australia in their first game. No way they can be anything other than best performers.

England obviously deserve kudos for their win against the ABs. But they lost to Australia and SA and beating Fiji at the moment is like saying you scored in a brothel.

I think Italy deserve a lot of respect and I like what this new coach Jacques Brunel is doing with the team. Ireland lack consistency still but are capable of big things.

1. France.
2. England
3. Ireland.
4. Italy (based on who they were playing and the improvement they showed)
5. Wales
6. Scotland.

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Post by Pot Hale Sat 01 Dec 2012, 6:11 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It's not France's fault they didn't play the ABs and get the opportunity to beat them. They won 3 from 3 against good opposition and spanked Australia in their first game. No way they can be anything other than best performers.

England obviously deserve kudos for their win against the ABs. But they lost to Australia and SA and beating Fiji at the moment is like saying you scored in a brothel.

I think Italy deserve a lot of respect and I like what this new coach Jacques Brunel is doing with the team. Ireland lack consistency still but are capable of big things.

1. France.
2. England
3. Ireland.
4. Italy (based on who they were playing and the improvement they showed)
5. Wales
6. Scotland.

Good analysis but I'd put Wales bottom of the list given their previous performances, calibre of squad available, and getting four chances as opposed to three for posting a win.
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Sat 01 Dec 2012, 6:16 pm

yeah fair enough. I was toying at putting them joint last because again Scotland only played three. Could have easily been four losses. However Wales lost more narrowly than Scotland in their games although each side had their injury woes. Frankly, they were both disappointing but the flipside is that they are both much more capable of putting in better performances. So it's going to be a fascinating 6n: France and England will have the favourites tag, Ireland will be there or thereabouts and Wales and Scotland will have no pressure on them because they will have been written off. As fascinated as I am to see how France and England in particular perform, I think the team that might spring a few surprises is Italy. They honestly impressed me. I hope they do well because like today showed, it's great for the game to shake things up.

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Post by whocares Sat 01 Dec 2012, 6:17 pm

it's difficult to really separate Wales and Scotland as far as their last performances went... England can be credited with the best performance of the AIs so far. From the SH, I think Samoa looked as very good value and caused all sort of trouble to France and it's a shame they didnt play more games. Hopefully they will build on that.

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Post by rodders Sat 01 Dec 2012, 6:34 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
1. France.
2. England
3. Ireland.
4. Italy (based on who they were playing and the improvement they showed)
5. Wales
6. Scotland.

Yup hard to argue with that.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat 01 Dec 2012, 6:47 pm

well the single best performance came from England today, followed by France against Australia. France backed it up with two decent wins against tier 2 nations while England failed to beat either Australia (which they probably should have, going into the game) or SA (which they were arguably unlucky in). They did crush Fiji, but that probably doesn't count for much. I think on this basis France has to rank above England (hard to see what more they could have done, bar beating Samoa more convincingly), with Ireland third.

After that it's much of a muchness. Wales and Scotland both had extremely disappointing campaigns, Scotland's defeat to Tonga probably the lowlight, but I think on the basis of expectations Wales probably have to be ranked bottom (Wales would have gone in expecting a bare minimum of two wins). Italy squeak above the two on the basis of running the Ausies unexpectedly close, but really they weren't up to much either. Hence:

France
England
Ireland
Italy
Scotland
Wales

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Post by thomh Sat 01 Dec 2012, 6:54 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
After that it's much of a muchness. Wales and Scotland both had extremely disappointing campaigns, Scotland's defeat to Tonga probably the lowlight, but I think on the basis of expectations Wales probably have to be ranked bottom (Wales would have gone in expecting a bare minimum of two wins).

Relative to expectations Wales have had the most disappointing autumn, but that doesn't make them the worst side.

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sat 01 Dec 2012, 6:57 pm

thomh I disagree they were the worst side bar none, I'd like to add Fiji wouldve beaten us this AI, and they will be gutted they never got the chance!!!

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat 01 Dec 2012, 6:58 pm

thomh wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:
After that it's much of a muchness. Wales and Scotland both had extremely disappointing campaigns, Scotland's defeat to Tonga probably the lowlight, but I think on the basis of expectations Wales probably have to be ranked bottom (Wales would have gone in expecting a bare minimum of two wins).

Relative to expectations Wales have had the most disappointing autumn, but that doesn't make them the worst side.

agreed. Scotland were the worst side I think most people would agree, but it wasn't entirely clear what we're meant to be ranking the sides on, hence my post.

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Post by sausage1966 Sat 01 Dec 2012, 7:00 pm

England progressed after losing 2 games they should have won. They have improved. They beat the RWC champs and the best team in the world. Jealousy aside - the other home nations will be worried. No one could ever have dreamed of the result today. We looked superb.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 01 Dec 2012, 7:14 pm

Morgannwg wrote:Not sure who should be top of the list between England and France. France won all their games and the opposition was very good. England beat NZ quite well.

I can't see why England would lose against Aus and SA then beat NZ. Erm


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You could say we (England) save the best till last. Whistle thumbsup

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sat 01 Dec 2012, 7:15 pm

I couldn't say England were better than France, but then both of their best performances were generally opposition based performances.

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Post by fa0019 Sat 01 Dec 2012, 9:09 pm

I would put England ahead of France... Why?

Well France played AUS, Argentina and Samoa. They won all 3 but could have easily lost to Samoa and the quality of opposition is not quite the same as England had.

If ENG hadn't won today sure, but they did and did something NO team has done since France did in the 99 World Cup... They destroyed them, and at their own game. This will give ENG immense confidence and may make the opposition a little more wary.

France will travel to twickenham in the 6n..... They do not have a good record there and hate the way England play.

For me Ireland away will be England's key match.

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Post by nganboy Sat 01 Dec 2012, 9:23 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:Not sure who should be top of the list between England and France. France won all their games and the opposition was very good. England beat NZ quite well.

I can't see why England would lose against Aus and SA then beat NZ. Erm


Morgannwg.

You could say we (England) save the best till last. Whistle thumbsup

Or NZ saved the worst till last Whistle
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Post by neilthom7 Sat 01 Dec 2012, 9:51 pm

I would say France had the best Autumn,then England and then ireland. I would say this if we did not have Kidney in charge I would not be worried about England at all in the Aviva and one game v New Zealand who looked nothing like themselves would not .change that, however with Deccie in charge we just don't know what Ireland will turn up.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat 01 Dec 2012, 11:40 pm

I'd say France had the best Autumn and I feel my money would be fairly secure in betting on them winning the 6N.

Call this daft Scottish optimism but I'm hopeful if we get a reasonable interim/good permanent coach with a good selection policy and no nonsense approach (God I hope Mallett takes some looney pills and gets on board with Scotland) we can end up 4th, shocking right! (but in reality probably another wooden spoon and Scott Johnson wrecking scotland further). This said I'm gutted about our performances this Autumn, with the only highlight for me being the tries against NZ and Pygros's try against SA, we may not be world beaters but our team can definitely do better than they have this Autumn.

Wales I don't know what's gone wrong but I find it saddening to see them go so downhill again. Perhaps something to do with Gatland's unwelcome depature but I think the players are a bit demotivated from the summer still if I'm honest, Wales are a confidence side and I think its as much psychological as it is tactical.

England are looking okay (bracing myself for an oslaught of stats from today's match), and whilst they may have finished with a bang in beating NZ (well done btw) but I can't see them beating France in the 6Ns. Also take into account half of the NZ team had a pretty nasty virus, that scoreline may flatter England a little (not to say they wouldn't have won, just it may not have been by such a large margin) I also think the coaching will prove to be a limiting factor for England, I'm still not convinced with Lancaster, let us not forget neither the Aus or SA tests were won, as Scotland show big scalps don't = winning team.

Ireland played how I expected, not great but not bad either. Their win over Arg was great, they'll be disappointed not to have beaten SA but I get the impression this is a SA squad that can grind out wins when it needs to so hats off to them.

Italy were as expected, they've done better than Scotland which worries me greatly for their Murrayfield visit. Against the Kiwis they were pretty solid, although had a bit of a fright against Tonga, but unlike Scotland they actually won.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat 01 Dec 2012, 11:46 pm

I actually think England will beat France in the 6N. We're at home, and usually have done pretty well against the French recently (the last WC being the exception). My main worry is the Ireland away game (one we haven't won in donkeys years).

I think you're a bit harsh on England: they weren't that far off beating either SA or Aus (in fact were much the better team in the SA game). They do need to start stringing performances together though, something they haven't yet been able to do under Lancaster. Still the players are there, and on today's evidence the gameplans can be there too, so here's hoping...

4th is probably optimistic for Scotland, but you never know. Again, they have some talented players, but Robinson seemed completely incapable of getting the best out of them, so maybe with a new coach?

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Post by Feckless Rogue Sun 02 Dec 2012, 1:03 am

The last time England won 6 Nations match in Dublin was 2003. That's also the year of their last win over the All Blacks. Shocked
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