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What to do about DRS?

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kingraf
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What to do about DRS?

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Post by Duty281 Mon 26 Nov 2012, 6:17 am

Option 1 - The ICC make DRS mandatory for every Test Nation.
Option 2 - DRS shouldn't be used and the ICC should scrap it.
Option 3 - The current stance on DRS, let the Test Nations decide between themselves.
Option 4 - If one nation wishes to use DRS in a Test Series, and the other doesn't, let the one nation that wishes to use DRS use it, and the one nation that doesn't wish to use it not use it. (Hope that makes sense)
Option 5 - Other (please state)

I've gone with option 1.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 26 Nov 2012, 7:34 am

5) Other - Let the host nation decide. Thus India can choose not to have DRS available when teams visit them, but will have to use it when they travel.

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Post by Mike Selig Mon 26 Nov 2012, 9:04 am

The problem is with 1) who pays for it? At the moment it is the host nation and it has been established that for example Sri Lanka (and West Indies) simply can't afford "hotspot". If you have DRS but different tools for different places you are only modifying the current problem.

Personally I believe the ICC should fund it (possibly with the aid of a sponsor, which should be easily got if they put their minds to it - imagine every time a review happens you have your brand name broadcasted to the world...), and it should make use of all available technology everywhere. Moreover I would like that balls just missing the stumps on Hawk-eye remain "umpire's call" (e.g. Pattinson's LBW review in the recent Aus test).

I also think it is now up to the other test nations to put pressure on the BCCI (and hence the ICC) to accept DRS. The situation we have in the England-India tests is not acceptable. The obvious thing is for the other 3 main boards to say to India clearly "stop throwing your weight around [with the other poorer boards], back this change or we won't play you anymore". They would quickly change their tune.

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Post by Shelsey93 Mon 26 Nov 2012, 10:19 am

Totally agree with Mike.

The main point being missed is that whilst only India oppose it per se, others can't afford either to use it at all or to use all parts of the system. For that reason its not being used in SL-NZ or Ban-WI either.

Therefore, its too simplistic to simply say the BCCI need to come down from their high horse and then everything will be fine.

A sponsor would work fine. Then the only slight issue would be over Hot Spot - I don't think there are enough units set up for cricket for it to be used in four places simultaneously. This may have changed, but a couple of years ago this was certainly the case.

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Post by skyeman Mon 26 Nov 2012, 3:56 pm

It costs between $50,000 - $100,000 per Test, i think is should be incorporated into any TV rights deals, thus solving the nations boards problems.

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 26 Nov 2012, 5:41 pm

Totally agree with the host-nation-decides idea. Other nations have to accept that if they play in India there is no DRS, but if India travel they have to accept what the host nation wants. They are the only nation that have it both ways.
If umpires in India are gonna give Sachin out LBW (and Gambhir out LBW when he, apparently, hit it) then there is no point in NOT having the DRS, anyway.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Mon 26 Nov 2012, 10:16 pm

Option 4 sounds like a recipe for chaos and disharmony.. Shocked

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Post by Kidderlad Mon 26 Nov 2012, 10:45 pm

Option 1 it must be.

We can't go back to the past, DRS is here and it should be compulsory. Agree with the points above that it could be funded by the ICC, there is plenty of TV and other sponsorship cash around!

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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 27 Nov 2012, 10:04 am

Spot on, kidderlad. Welcome to the cricket board, by the way.

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Post by Guest Wed 28 Nov 2012, 11:40 am

I think they should enforce it across the board. I thought Nass was spot on when he said they should go with the majority that want it, but also not restrict India for appealing for it not to be enforced and that their opinion should be acknowledged and accepted too. It's not like every decision would be reviewed. Each team gets 2 challenges, so it is not like the power has been completely taken away from the umpires.

India when looking back on this series would surely think moving over to it is the way forward. Looking at the decisions they could've reviewed and easily got over-turned correctly and could've affected the result.

I am for DRS. However I don't like it when it is open to abuse. When players are given out and they review a decision based on hope more than actually I think umpire has got the decision wrong. That un-fortunately goes with DRS.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 28 Nov 2012, 1:26 pm

Rename it the Dar Reveiw System

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Post by Duty281 Tue 16 Jul 2013, 6:47 pm

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013/content/story/651755.html

Brad Haddin believes DRS should be left in the hands of umpires.

Well of course he would!

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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Jul 2013, 7:27 pm

Well, a mixture of 1 and 5. Don't think India can hold back on the DRS very long. But at the same time, I wouldn't really fancy DRS too much in the current format. I really don't like the whole umpire's call thing where one batsman might get out if the ball is shaving the stumps and the other gets away even if more of the ball is hitting the stumps. The McGrath solution, where a certain % of the ball hitting has to be out regardless of the original call is a lot more fairer scenario. If the human eye is better than the technology in determining the path of the ball, there is no need to use the tracking technology at all.
The ICC should certainly find ways to fund the DRS system in all countries, and the complete tool set should be available.
I have no issues with the existing system in terms of it letting players call for the review, or the number of challenges available to a side.

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Wed 17 Jul 2013, 5:49 am

I too support DRS. BCCI under the pressure of players like Dhoni opposes it(source one of the newz channel in India). I have doubt on the decision going to Umpire's call. Look the decision of giving Shane watson out in the second innings. Umpire decision stands there. Had on field umpires given him not out, and review taken then following umpire call he was not out. So how a batsman can be out and not out on the same ball. There comes the flaws in DRS.


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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Wed 17 Jul 2013, 5:50 am

I too support DRS. BCCI under the pressure of players like Dhoni opposes it(source one of the newz channel in India). I have doubt on the decision going to Umpire's call. Look the decision of giving Shane watson out in the second innings. Umpire decision stands there. Had on field umpires given him not out, and review taken then following umpire call he was not out. So how a batsman can be out and not out on the same ball. There comes the flaws in DRS.
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Post by dummy_half Wed 17 Jul 2013, 7:32 am

Sub

Remember the purpose of DRS is to overturn obviously incorrect decisions, not really the very marginal ones - as such, anything that is 'umpires call' on review was a reasonable decision on the pitch (whether initially given as out or not), and so is being vindicated by the findings of the review.

I'm coming round to the school of thought that teams should only have one review per innings, so that they have to save it for the genuinely bad decisions rather than in reviewing ones that they hope will show the umpire was wrong by 1mm.

Oh, and I don't like hotspot - while in theory it is a clever system, it too often doesn't work correctly. Surely Hawkeye could be modified to include some extra cameras to view whether the ball took the edge of the bat as well...

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Wed 17 Jul 2013, 7:58 am

Agree with you Dummy_half.
I feel DRS should be given in the hands of Umpire. Like after every out decision a no ball is checked, Third umpire should itself check, without being referred, whether the decision given by on field umpire is correct or not and intervene him when a wrong decision is made.

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Post by msp83 Wed 17 Jul 2013, 9:02 am

But DRS isn't taking out the obvious howlers consistently is it? And besides, the ICC itself suggests that the DRS is there to take out the howler as well as give as many correct decisions as possible. The umpire's call aren't helping in terms of fairness. If you believe the tracking system, then you believe it. You can provide for a bit of margin either ways, but there has to be consistency in the application of the same. So if the technology shows 50 % of the ball is hitting, then the batsman has to go regardless of the original call. If it is less than 50 %, then the batsman stays in regardless of the original call.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Jul 2013, 9:27 am

DRS needs to be forced

It also needs to be improved- however even with the way DRS currentoly is - It is still infinitly better than it is without it!

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Jul 2013, 9:28 am

"You can provide for a bit of margin either ways, but there has to be consistency in the application of the same. So if the technology shows 50 % of the ball is hitting, then the batsman has to go regardless of the original call. If it is less than 50 %, then the batsman stays in regardless of the original call."

I do agree with this- bring it down to 5% or something along those lines.. and dont even bother with umpires call. 5% hitting = out, less than = IN

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Jul 2013, 9:30 am

"Oh, and I don't like hotspot - while in theory it is a clever system, it too often doesn't work correctly. Surely Hawkeye could be modified to include some extra cameras to view whether the ball took the edge of the bat as well.."

agree with that- Hotspot makes mistakes.. Hawkeye tracks the ball- surely it can track the ball at impact and notice a differnce in revs at that point!

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Post by Mike Selig Wed 17 Jul 2013, 10:19 am

The system as it stands is not perfect. We must however be wary of change for change's sake and not implement a system which is worse.

The statistics from the ICC show that DRS works in the sense that it increases the number of correct decisions made. Indeed even in the recent test match which caused so much controversy several incorrect decisions were reversed, whilst "only" one (possibly 2 depending on your view of the Hughes dismissal - more on that later) correct decision were changed. At least one incorrect decision was not changed. On the whole, this shows that in purely numerical terms DRS did more good than harm.

Thus those who say we should get rid of DRS because as it is it isn't perfect are talking complete nonsense. It is the kind of reasoning which suggests you mustn't do a good thing if it isn't perfect and one which I find particularly daft and in the way of progress.

Once we have accepted that for all its flaws DRS is actually overall a good thing, then we can move on to the sensible step of trying to improve it by ironing out some of the flaws.

I am not sure of the merits of getting rid of the "umpire's call" function. If we adopt some of the viewpoints, then a ball which according to the ball tracking technology would have hit the stumps, and given out would be reversed on review if not enough of it was hitting the stumps. I personally feel this would cause even more confusion than the current system. The LBW law as stated says something like "if in the opinion of the umpire, the ball would have hit the stumps" - not "a good portion of the ball"...

This will to get rid of the "umpire's call" stems from a black and white perspective, expertly and inadvertently summed up by msp "either you believe the ball-tracking or you don't" - unfortunately life is not so simple. The experts tell us that the ball-tracking technology is mostly accurate but not always. The argument that it is more accurate than the human eye has merit, but this moves towards technology replacing the umpires rather than supplementing it.

For similar reasons I am not a fan of having the umpires in charge of the system. I feel they would refer almost every decision automatically, and this again goes against the spirit in which DRS was introduced, which was to help the umpires rather than replace them. This will also slow the game down unbearably (it is quite slow enough as it is). Moreover there will still be some decisions which remain incorrect because the umpire doesn't refer it (wrongly) - see for example the Aus vs combined ICC XI matches where the 3rd umpire was first used for LBWs and caught decisions; almost every decision was reviewed, except for one notable exception where Brett Lee got Inzaman out to a very good inswinging yorker which would have swung significantly past the leg-stump.

However there is no doubt that such a system would almost certainly increase the number of correct decisions from the current one, so you have to consider it. the issue for me is it would fundamentally change the outlook of cricket, and even further remove the top echelon of the game from others; it would also heavily rely on the host broadcaster being honest (not usually a problem, but could become one). I am not convinced that that is a price worth paying.

Dummy_half (alongside) some commentators has argued for 1 review per innings. The argument has a lot of merit: if we accept that the purpose of the DRS is to get rid of the howler rather than just the incorrect decision, then certainly reducing the number of reviews would reduce the amount of "tactical reviews" (or "reviews out of hope") which we see currently. On the other hand some of these "reviews out of hope" do succeed, so if we accept that the basic premise of the DRS is to maximise the number of correct decisions, then this doesn't work - for example I am almost certain that England wouldn't have reviewed the Hughes LBW had they only had one review remaining (I shall return to the Hughes LBW again).

There are other issues. Reducing to 1 review wouldn't eliminate all the tactical reviews (for example, England would still have reviewed just about anything during the Agar-Hughes partnership), but that in itself shouldn't be a deterrent - an improvement is not worth rejecting because it doesn't achieve perfection remember. More importantly however there are cases where the batsman or fielding side genuinely get it wrong - for example Clarke obviously felt he hadn't nicked it (it was at that stage in the 1 review situation). Of course you could have two such instances as things are, but the chances are fewer.

A more interesting solution would be to allow unlimitted (or drastically increased - say 5) reviews. This would maintain the current outlook of "the umpire decides, and technology is there to help him" whilst increasing the number of correct decisions further. Of course the obvious downside is that teams would review virtually anything, and thus the game would slow down a lot, possibly unacceptably. It would also move away from the philosophy of "DRS is there to correct the howler", but as we know, this current philosophy is not universally implemented anyway.

On the whole I have to say I'm reasonably content with DRS as it stands. I think it is up to the captains to get on board and understand its purpose, as England seem to have recently. There are however a few tweaks which could be made:
- I don't see how "impact in line" can feature an umpire's call, but the ball pitching cannot. It seems to me that if you accept that DRS is there to eliminate the howler, than the same margins should apply to a ball pitching in line. In particular, the Hughes decision IMO was not a howler, and not the kind of decision for which DRS was originally created.
- similarly, I don't think a ball which missed the stumps by a centimetre is a howler if given out (e.g. Sachin Tendulkar WC semi final - before Hawk-eye I doubt that would have been described as a bad decision, marginal yes). In the same way that a ball which only just hits the stumps but given not out. The margins should work both ways in an ideal world, but I appreciate the confusion of a ball missing the stumps but the "out" decision remaining is perhaps too high a price to pay to redress this particular inequality.
- I believe that you should have to be more precise with what you are reviewing. If a batsman reviews an LBW he should say why he feels it is not out (inside edge, too high, missing leg, contact outside off, etc.). If he is wrong on that particular front, then he loses the review. He can nominate several areas of concern ("missing leg, and too high") but then he has to use the appropriate number of reviews. Similarly if you review an LBW you are reviewing an LBW and not a catch. On both these occasions you must nominate the entirety of what you are reviewing at the same time (so you can't just watch the replay and then go "oh and actually we'll review for this as well").
- similarly umpires should be more precise with why they've given someone not out. As things stand, an umpire can give someone not out because he feels the ball was going down leg, replays show the ball was hitting enough of leg-stump for the decision to be overturned, but umpire's call on height - the decision is not overturned, which I feel is wrong. Or similarly if an umpire gives a batsman not out LBW because of a perceived inside edge, but is convinced the ball would have hit the stumps, then the replays show that there was no edge, but "umpire's call" on the stumps. etc.

There are numerous other tweaks I can think of but I am not as yet convinced by the need for drastic change.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 17 Jul 2013, 10:32 am

msp83 wrote:But DRS isn't taking out the obvious howlers consistently is it? And besides, the ICC itself suggests that the DRS is there to take out the howler as well as give as many correct decisions as possible. The umpire's call aren't helping in terms of fairness. If you believe the tracking system, then you believe it. You can provide for a bit of margin either ways, but there has to be consistency in the application of the same. So if the technology shows 50 % of the ball is hitting, then the batsman has to go regardless of the original call. If it is less than 50 %, then the batsman stays in regardless of the original call.

MSP
Taking the first test, there were 4 decisions that caused controversy:

1 - Agar's stumping. There was no failure of the technology involved, just a very odd judgement from the video umpire. No-one else has seen Agar's foot as being behind the line.

2 - Trott's LBW. There was a combination here of a failure of the hotspot system and human judgement. The on-field umpire actually gave the correct decision, but was over-ruled because the video umpire did not follow the protocol of only changing the decision if it was clearly wrong. Without hotspot, it was inconclusive.

3 - Broad LBW padding up to Agar and 4 - Broad caught by Clarke. In both cases the on field decision was incorrect (the first understandably, the second bafflingly), but the technology of the DRS system was not at fault. The failure lay with the Australians having already used both reviews, including one that was very poorly judged. Now, you can argue that this is a failure of the DRS system as a whole (i.e. that there are only 2 reviews available per side per innings), or with the tactics the Australians applied in their use of the reviews at their disposal, but any review of either decision would have correctly over-turned the errors.

I actually have no problem with 'umpires call' as the conclusion for a hawkeye review - as I said, the system is meant to overturn clear errors, which a review that returns an 'umpires call' verdict is not a clear error. The question is not whether you trust Hawkeye, but is in part a consideration of the precision of the forward tracking part of the system (and I've seen a few occasions, particularly with spin bowling and the ball striking the pad very shortly after pitching, where the prediction looks to have exagerated the lateral movement of the ball) and partly whether you want a game that is fundamentally officiated by humans.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 17 Jul 2013, 10:47 am

Mike

Regarding the number of reviews, I think it depends on what the DRS system is intended to achieve. If, as originally stated it is to overturn clearly wrong decisions, then one review per team should be sufficient. If it is to achieve 100% accuracy in decision making then you are in the situation of needing (effectively) unlimited reviews, which as you said would slow play down even further from its already glacial pace. One option would be that 'umpires call' decisions don't get counted as an unsuccessful review.

I agree with your initial point that DRS as it stands is not perfect but is better than the alternative of relying solely on the on-field umpires. Hawkeye, high speed cameras and sound from the stump cam are all beneficial in making accurate decisions. I'd like to see improvements in 'snicko' to allow that to replace Hotspot for additional judgement of edges, but understand that there are historic issues with matching pictures and sound accurately within a timeframe that allows it to be part of the review process.

Over time, the systems and technology will improve further, but as it stands it is a good (not great) system.

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Post by liverbnz Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:16 am

In an attempt to (probably despairringly) defend the umpire in the Broad controversey, I think if Haddin had caught the ball rather than deflecting it to slip the umpire may have given it out. I think the 2nd (and greater deviation) from Haddin's gloves may well have blurred the first.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:37 am

liver

I agree that the deflection off Haddin to Clarke is about the only possible reason for the not out decision - simply a set of circumstances that don't happen often. Dar though should have been awake enough to question why the ball missed Haddin's gloves by quite so far when he looked to be in a perfectly reasonable position to make a routine take (although the ball was close to Broad's bat and leg, Haddin had a clear view, which as a keeper is all you really want when close to the stumps). Especially given that Agar was turning the ball in, for Haddin to miss so far to the inside gave a strong hint that the ball hit something on the way past Broad, and his legs/hips weren't close enough.

Actually, just thinking this through, perhaps there is merit in the umpires being allowed to refer a decision on the 'what just happened there?' basis - there is precedence in that they can refer decisions of fact (run outs, stumpings and whether catches carried and were taken cleanly).

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:40 am

"s I said, the system is meant to overturn clear errors, which a review that returns an 'umpires call' verdict is not a clear error"

that is fine- bar the fact that we are using technology that is better than the human eye- therefore we should expect that and use what we have to produce a clearer and better DRS system.

also even if we stuck with umpires call - why the 50% of the ball. Hawkeye is better than that!

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Post by Biltong Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:14 pm

I like the DRS, there are however a few issues bugging me.

The DRS conditions must be clearer, and the problem here is the right decision or outcome is necessary, irrespective of whether the on field umpire gave it our or not, out is out and should be seen as that.

IF however the evidence is not 100% clear, the decision remains that of the onfield umpire.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:15 pm

Myst

Putting my science and engineering hat on for a moment, it's worth thinking about what Hawkeye does -
The high speed cameras + software capable of tracking and locating the actual path of the ball more accurately than the umpire, so for judgement of fact such as whether the ball pitched in line and struck the batsman in line it is an improvement in absolute terms.

From the point the ball strikes the batsman, computer algorithms are used to forecast the on-going flight of the ball. The accuracy of this system can never be 100% and is dependent on a number of factors, most particularly the distances involved between the ball pitching, the ball striking the batsman's pads or bat and distance from there to the stumps. If there is a longer distance between the ball pitching and striking the batsman, the extent of any lateral movement can be well constrained from the camera images and the consequent error in the forecast path will be small (although can never be eliminated simply because cricket balls don't always fly straight). Shorter distance, greater uncertainty in the ball path and so in the forecast path.

From a purely 'scientific' perspective, you could consider each Hawkeye forecast of where the ball is going as having a cone of uncertainty, but the point is that this varies for every decision. In theory this could be shown on the Hawkeye graphic and used in the decision making process, but try explaining to the average cricket fan who has been lubricated with lager all day why one review considered a very narrow range of uncertainty and a second a very wide range...

Pre-selecting an absolute value, based on half the ball, is not a bad simplification at this time. And in truth, I don't think the Hawkeye manufacturers claim much greater accuracy for the forecasting side anyway.

As an aside, I trust the accuracy of Hawkeye more when used in tennis, as it is only being required to determine something that actually happened, not forecast something that didn't.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:20 pm

I totally agree with you dummy- I have made the same arguments to others that have made statements that hawk eye predicts to with a millimetre or two(they have mistaken the tracking prediction(tennis or cricket ball pitching in line) over the prediction prediction(after lbw)!!)

However I read (a year or two ago) that hawkeye predicts to with 1% of the ball ball size correctly(at wicket point) 19 in 20 times. and the others are within 5% or something.

Trials have clearly been staged..

Its very easy to do. Just bowl 10000 balls and with no batter- cut the ball footage and see if hawkeye can predict, then compare the footage..

So yes hawkeye does claim much better acciracy than 50% and even if the odd random ball doesnt come within that remitance- at least we have a very consitant situation in terms of what it out and what isnt.

There is something very alien about a situation where 49% of the ball hits the stumps and the batter isnt out due to an umpire saying it isnt and then on the other hand .001 % of the ball hitting and the batter is out because the umpire called it out.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:48 pm

mystiroakey wrote:I totally agree with you dummy- I have made the same arguments to others that have made statements that hawk eye predicts to with a millimetre or two(they have mistaken the tracking prediction(tennis or cricket ball pitching in line) over the prediction prediction(after lbw)!!)

However I read (a year or two ago) that hawkeye predicts to with 1% of the ball ball size correctly(at wicket point) 19 in 20 times. and the others are within 5% or something.

Trials have clearly been staged..

Its very easy to do. Just bowl 10000 balls and with no batter- cut the ball footage and see if hawkeye can predict, then compare the footage..

So yes hawkeye does claim much better acciracy than 50% and even if the odd random ball doesnt come within that remitance- at least we have a very consitant situation in terms of what it out and what isnt.

There is something very alien about a situation where 49% of the ball hits the stumps and the batter isnt out due to an umpire saying it isnt and then on the other hand .001 % of the ball hitting and the batter is out because the umpire called it out.

Myst

I'd like to know the parameters of the trials - I've seen cases where the projected ball track looks to be way off, typically for a spinner hitting the batsman either on the full or immediately after pitching. I think the trials you are suggesting would have to be set up to evaluate the accuracy of this 'worst case' situation rather than the more routine ones. I'd still be surprised if the system in 'forecast' mode was as accurate as the claim above.

As for your last point, that comes back to the question of what the DRS is supposed to be used for - if it is to achieve 'perfect' decision making then yes your examples do seem flawed, but if it is only to provide backup for the human umpires then neither decision is clearly wrong (LBW is a subjective decision - as Mike quoted earlier, the Law includes the works 'in the umpire's opinion'...). Yes, you'd feel hard done by as the batsman if Hawkeye returned 'umpires call' for one that is only scraping the last coat of varnish, but it was ever thus...

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:59 pm

"I'd like to know the parameters of the trials - I've seen cases where the projected ball track looks to be way off, typically for a spinner hitting the batsman either on the full or immediately after pitching. I think the trials you are suggesting would have to be set up to evaluate the accuracy of this 'worst case' situation rather than the more routine ones. I'd still be surprised if the system in 'forecast' mode was as accurate as the claim above.
"

we went through this for weeks and weeks of discussion(a year or two ago)- we were all searching the net over it. I am not going to claim they are 100% accurate- I cant find any at the moment. But the main problem was the odd one ball that came out of a 1% remit- and I am not sure what that percentage was- But I am pretty certain that 95% of the balls bolwed under testing were within 1% accurate!

"As for your last point, that comes back to the question of what the DRS is supposed to be used for"

yes but i am beyond that tbh with you. I am happy with DRS as it is 'supposed' to be used(to prevent holwers). Because it still works- just not well enough

however the point is still very vaild. and it still when we take what we know about cricket away and just think about logic. It is pretty stupid.. And trust me you will hear this argument used for ever(as long as drs stays as it is!!- the argument will go on and on)- , explaining that its only meant to deal with howlers is all well and good but it doesnt stop the utimate problem that if we use hawkeye to 'accurately' judge what is 50% of the ball, then why arnt we trusting it more

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Post by dyrewolfe Wed 17 Jul 2013, 2:05 pm

While the technology can probably be improved (and should be, as far as possible) I think DRS, if used properly, is fine and should be adopted by all nations for all Test series.

Remember a lot of the commentary about this kept coming back to the point DRS should only be invoked when the players are certain the umpire has made a howler, rather than for marginal decisions where it might be left to the umpire's call anyway.

Used properly, DRS will generally correct any really bad decisions. Don't expect it to give definitive results on 50/50 calls.

We saw classic examples of good and bad DRS usage in the First Test, where Australia used theirs up far too early on iffy calls and consequently had none left when they really needed them (additionally I think 3 decisions per team is just right).
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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Jul 2013, 2:31 pm

Thereis no way Clarke will blame Drs FOR LOSING. He has and will however blame himself for using it wrong,

That is the fact of it. They are pros- they understand the rules and drs and how they should use it. But dont presume any captain will use it only for obvious howlers- You have to use it effectively. If england didnt use it at the end(when cook clearly thought it was a gamble) we may have lost the game!!

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Post by msp83 Wed 17 Jul 2013, 2:39 pm

If the DRS is there to make the decision making process fairer, then you can't have a situation where you could be out or not out of the same ball. A batsman can be given out even if the ball is just shaving the out side of leg stump if the original call is out. But when more of the ball is shown to be hitting the stumps, if the original decision is not out, the other batsman stays in. Not only that, the team end up losing a review as well. The dismissals of Rogers in the first innings and that of Watson and Hughes in the 2nd are case in points.

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Post by dyrewolfe Wed 17 Jul 2013, 2:53 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Thereis no way Clarke will blame Drs FOR LOSING. He has and will however blame himself for using it wrong,

That is the fact of it. They are pros- they understand the rules and drs and how they should use it. But dont presume any captain will use it only for obvious howlers- You have to use it effectively. If england didnt use it at the end(when cook clearly thought it was a gamble) we may have lost the game!!


Good point, however the fact England didn't use up their reviews on marginal decisions earlier in the match meant they had one available for a match winning/losing decision.

Tactics obviously come into it, but by using DRS sparingly and only when you're pretty certain the umpire's got it wrong, you then give yourself some tactical leeway for when games go down to the wire.
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Post by dyrewolfe Wed 17 Jul 2013, 2:59 pm

msp83 wrote:If the DRS is there to make the decision making process fairer, then you can't have a situation where you could be out or not out of the same ball. A batsman can be given out even if the ball is just shaving the out side of leg stump if the original call is out. But when more of the ball is shown to be hitting the stumps, if the original decision is not out, the other batsman stays in. Not only that, the team end up losing a review as well. The dismissals of Rogers in the first innings and that of Watson and Hughes in the 2nd are case in points.


As has already been mentioned, the system isn't 100% accurate, as it has to extrapolate the ball's trajectory from where it bounces on the pitch, so its only as good as the algorithms used in the software.

Because of this, there is a margin of error built in, which if the projected result is marginal enough, the system will allow the umpire's original decision to stand. Plus the idea of losing a review if you make the wrong call is brilliant as it should encourage teams to only use them if they really think they have a case for overturning the umpire's decision.

This is why DRS should only be used if the players are pretty certain the ump's decision is wrong...or as England did at the end of the First Test for Haddin's dismissal (a luxury afforded them because they hadn't used up their decisions earlier on poor/marginal calls).

They use the same system in tennis (each player has 3 challenges per set). Only difference is that Hawkeye is 100% accurate as the ball always hits the court, so its pretty straightforward to tell whether its in or out (unlike cricket where it first needs to calculate a probable trajectory between the pitch and stumps).
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Post by msp83 Wed 17 Jul 2013, 3:13 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
msp83 wrote:If the DRS is there to make the decision making process fairer, then you can't have a situation where you could be out or not out of the same ball. A batsman can be given out even if the ball is just shaving the out side of leg stump if the original call is out. But when more of the ball is shown to be hitting the stumps, if the original decision is not out, the other batsman stays in. Not only that, the team end up losing a review as well. The dismissals of Rogers in the first innings and that of Watson and Hughes in the 2nd are case in points.


As has already been mentioned, the system isn't 100% accurate, as it has to extrapolate the ball's trajectory from where it bounces on the pitch, so its only as good as the algorithms used in the software.

Because of this, there is a margin of error built in, which if the projected result is marginal enough, the system will allow the umpire's original decision to stand. Plus the idea of losing a review if you make the wrong call is brilliant as it should encourage teams to only use them if they really think they have a case for overturning the ump's decision.

This is why DRS should only be used if the players are pretty certain the ump's decision is wrong...or as England did at the end of the First Test for Haddin's dismissal (a luxury afforded them because they hadn't used up their decisions earlier on poor/marginal calls).
I do understand there is a margin of error with the tracking system. So if the margin of error is 5 %, anything above that should be out, and anything under has to be not out. I see no place for sentimentality for the umpire's position and so on in such a scenario. I think greater consistency is worth paying for over and above such traditionalism, the DRS in principle is anyways undermining certain traditions about umpiring. If the LBW law states 'in the opinion of the umpire......', and then you overrule the umpire's opinion in terms of the balls path using a predictive device in certain context, then you have to stick with it, leaving no space for any further inconsistencies.
We can argue all about the howler v marginal calls all day, but the fact remains that one major reason why many of the Indian players aren't particular about DRS is due to the perceived inconsistencies of ball tracking. Bringing in greater inconsistencies in the name of the umpire's call will not help them change their views. In entrusting technology with such calls, there of course is a price to pay, but as I said, bringing in greater consistency is a benefit that justifies such a price.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 21 Jul 2013, 11:43 pm

DRS has a rather more successful outing in the second Test of the Ashes - no matter what bitter pundits like Michael Holding think. The technology works, barring HotSpot of course which needs some adjustment. Snicko will hopefully be used as part of DRS soon.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 21 Jul 2013, 11:58 pm

DRS in it's current form is appearing in it's last Ashes.......mark my words.
and it's beyond even any debate
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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 3:32 am

I don't think its beyond the debate KPF. Technology can't be 100% full proof. Yup I agree with different problems there in this series.
If I to suggest, DRS should be handed over to umpires not to players. ICC launched DRS not to check the credibility of Captain or players but to make the game error free. We all know 90% of the decisions given by on field umpires are correct so they need drs for the rest 10%. Now third umpire check no ball after every out decision, i think that time can be used to see whether on field umpire has made a correct call or not, if not third umpire can intervene and ask onfield umpires to change it.
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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 3:45 am

I have seen many of my friends suggesting ICC to impart on others board forcefully. Every cricket playing nation is not as rich as England and Australia. Boards of SL, Pak, BD finds it difficult to spend so much money on this technology.
And again whenever a voting goes on DRS does not find support from other nation. Last time it was 1-1. Only BCCI and ECB had casted their vote.
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Post by LondonTiger Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:40 am

KP_fan wrote:DRS in it's current form is appearing in it's last Ashes.......mark my words.
and it's beyond even any debate

Maybe in it's current form - though I doubt there will be any changes before the winter series.

The use DRS will in the end grow. already we see almost every decision checked upstairs for a no-ball.

My issue is not with the accuracy of the technology (it is far more accurate than the hum,an eye, even if old duffers are unwilling to accept this), though the cost is an issue.

My issue is with the HUMAN decision making in the process. That decision making has been flawed in this series. Erasmus overturning the decision on Trott in the first test, then hill overturning the Agar decision. In both cases the batsman was given out on paltry evidence. This was not a failure of technology, but a failure of the human brain.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 22 Jul 2013, 8:37 am


My issue is with the HUMAN decision making in the process. That decision making has been flawed in this series. Erasmus overturning the decision on Trott in the first test, then hill overturning the Agar decision. In both cases the batsman was given out on paltry evidence. This was not a failure of technology, but a failure of the human brain..


you are right London Tiger......the issues are coming from 3 angles:

1) Human interpretation errors / misjudgments / lack of clarity of the 3rd umpires

2) the implemenation rules itself like they stand.

3) Technology errors

item 3) is the smallest of the problems but not NIL.

item 1) is the largest of the problems followed by 2)

but 2) is completely in the hands of ICC....and  I can bet ya.......that this component  will change signifcantly for the next ashes.


however regradless of whether the cause is 1) or 2) or 3).........it is seen as a DRS failure


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Post by LondonTiger Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:02 am

The current DRS does improve the number of correct decisions made. I just feel sometimes they are trying to get everything 100% accurate - which is impossible.

There are some fans who, 10 years later, still go on about the howlers made by Steve Bucknor in a particular series - yet still want the decisions to rest solely in the hands of the onfield umpires. If that is what they want, then they should just accept that sometimes umpires make mistakes.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:08 am

LondonTiger wrote:The current DRS does improve the number of correct decisions made. I just feel sometimes they are trying to get everything 100% accurate - which is impossible.

There are some fans who, 10 years later, still go on about the howlers made by Steve Bucknor in a particular series - yet still want the decisions to rest solely in the hands of the onfield umpires. If that is what they want, then they should just accept that sometimes umpires make mistakes.

the refrence bar changes......marginal errors were acceptable from the 3rd umpires.....but not when multi-million dollar technology with the whole fancy sounding shebang such as clickometer, snickometer, hot spot, infrared, thermal / acoustic...etc etc is rolled out.

and when technology is used....it is so much under the scanner that goof-ups regardless of whether they fall in category 1) or 2) or 3).....are impossible to brush under the carpet.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:19 am

the tech you are talking about is old tech. Hawkeye will work out a way of sorting out the knicks pretty soon..

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Post by dummy_half Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:34 am

KP

the problem is that without DRS (or something similar) the umpire's judgement comes under the same sort of scrutiny - high definition, super slow-mo replays from half a dozen different angles, even in the absence of hotspot or hawkeye, mean that every marginal decision is analysed to death.

Heck, Hawkeye technology was being used by British and Aussie broadcasters well before it was introduced as part of DRS, so we could see as viewers how accurate or not the umpires were. One interesting this is that Hawkeye has shown that for LBW calls umpires previously tended to over-emphasise the height of the stumps (i.e giving out on balls that were going over the top) but under-emphasised the width, particularly towards leg stump.

The overall point is that the umpire's job is impossible now without having some recourse to technology, and that by and large the technology itself has helped in the decision making process. The number of times that a decision has been wrongly overturned as a result of failure of the DRS technology is very small (arguably the Trott decision in the 1st Test, although even then it was more a human decision).

Now, there are arguments to make that the system is too expensive for the likes of Bangladesh or Sri Lanka, but that could probably be addressed by specific ICC funding of the system or including the costs within the broadcast rights sale.

The biggest issue though is that the judgement is still based on human interpretation on some issues like edges, whether catches carry (something in particular that cameras are not particularly good at showing for certain) and on line decisions. For as long as that is the case, there will continue to be both errors and controversial decisions.

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Post by msp83 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:41 am

The DRS certainly needs some change, else its a goner!.

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Post by msp83 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:56 am

And of the 3 levels involved in the DRS process that KPF has mentioned, I think most changes are needed at the 2nd level. At the first level, sack absolutely incompetent, not even club standard umpires like Tony Hill. At the third level, promote more R&D, and quicken the usage of emerging technology like instant replay.

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