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What to do about DRS?

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What to do about DRS?

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Post by Duty281 Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:17 am

First topic message reminder :

Option 1 - The ICC make DRS mandatory for every Test Nation.
Option 2 - DRS shouldn't be used and the ICC should scrap it.
Option 3 - The current stance on DRS, let the Test Nations decide between themselves.
Option 4 - If one nation wishes to use DRS in a Test Series, and the other doesn't, let the one nation that wishes to use DRS use it, and the one nation that doesn't wish to use it not use it. (Hope that makes sense)
Option 5 - Other (please state)

I've gone with option 1.

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Post by Mike Selig Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:25 am

msp83 wrote:At the first level, sack absolutely incompetent, not even club standard umpires like Tony Hill.

Eh? I have seen many club standard umpires in various European countries (including the UK); I have yet to see anyone even remotely approaching Tony Hill's standard. I find that statement quite insulting. As per usual msp you are very quick to criticise umpires for a few mistakes, whilst ignoring that they get the huge majority of their decisions right.

Hyperbole does little to advance your case.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:28 am

not being funny mike- but what has europe got to do with anything??

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Post by Mike Selig Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:03 am

Nothing really - it just happens to be where I live and move in in cricket circles.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:15 am

Firstly Mike I agree with you that Tony Hill is probally a lot better than MSP gives him credit for.. But we cant expect decent umpires in france .. Can we?

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Post by Mike Selig Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:27 am

There is no reason why not. The training is mostly done following the ECB curriculum, and at least one of our umpires has umpired at a good level in England.

In any case I am not talking only about France: Ireland, Scotland, Denmark etc. all produce good-to-very good umpires who umpire at international level, and the umpiring at regional events (e.g. the European championship) is done in a very professional manner.

I have also played a bit of club cricket in England, some of it at a decent level.

IN all this, none of the umpires come close to Tony Hill's standard (although a few have IMO been better than some of the umpires I've seen do ODIs, notably from Bangladesh or ironically enough India).


The reason why you won't see a European umpire on your TV anytime soon (unless you stream some of the stuff from Quipu) is because nominations to the Elite panel are taken from whatever the panel is just below it, which is made up purely from the test playing nations. There is no reason why theoretically a European umpire wouldn't be good enough to umpire at that level (just as some European players have proven to be good enough to play ODIs or even a few test matches).

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Post by msp83 Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:04 pm

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote:At the first level, sack absolutely incompetent, not even club standard umpires like Tony Hill.

Eh? I have seen many club standard umpires in various European countries (including the UK); I have yet to see anyone even remotely approaching Tony Hill's standard. I find that statement quite insulting. As per usual msp you are very quick to criticise umpires for a few mistakes, whilst ignoring that they get the huge majority of their decisions right.

Hyperbole does little to advance your case.
Watched the recent Zimbabwe Bangladesh series? To describe Hill's umpiring in that series as pathetic will be charitable.

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Post by msp83 Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:14 pm

Mike Selig wrote:There is no reason why not. The training is mostly done following the ECB curriculum, and at least one of our umpires has umpired at a good level in England.

In any case I am not talking only about France: Ireland, Scotland, Denmark etc. all produce good-to-very good umpires who umpire at international level, and the umpiring at regional events (e.g. the European championship) is done in a very professional manner.

I have also played a bit of club cricket in England, some of it at a decent level.

IN all this, none of the umpires come close to Tony Hill's standard (although a few have IMO been better than some of the umpires I've seen do ODIs, notably from Bangladesh or ironically enough India).


The reason why you won't see a European umpire on your TV anytime soon (unless you stream some of the stuff from Quipu) is because nominations to the Elite panel are taken from whatever the panel is just below it, which is made up purely from the test playing nations. There is no reason why theoretically a European umpire wouldn't be good enough to umpire at that level (just as some European players have proven to be good enough to play ODIs or even a few test matches).
No umpire from India is part of the ICC elite panel, so not much irony in the scenario that there could be much better options for them in international cricket.
Dropping Billy Bowdenn and retaining Hill was the most horrendous mistake the ICC made in recent times. I know Bowden could get carried away a bit too much at times with his theatrics, but his umpiring standars, taking into account some room for mistakes was of a much higher quality. Perhaps it was due to the low profile of the sides involved, but Hill's umpiring in particular, and the umpiring in general was absolutely atrocious in the Zimbabwe-Bangladesh series. Hill getting away with and Billy losing out so soon after that series was really poor. No stats can cover for such terrible mediocrity.

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Post by Mike Selig Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:20 pm

You don't need to be on the elite panel to umpire ODIs tho...

I didn't watch any of the Bangladesh-Zimbabwe series, because I have no wish to watch 2 undeserving and underperforming sides play matches at the cost of millions to the ICC which could be much better used. Sounds like the umpiring was of the same standard as the play, which is fair enough IMO.

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Post by msp83 Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:59 pm

Mike Selig wrote:You don't need to be on the elite panel to umpire ODIs tho...

I didn't watch any of the Bangladesh-Zimbabwe series, because I have no wish to watch 2 undeserving and underperforming sides play matches at the cost of millions to the ICC which could be much better used. Sounds like the umpiring was of the same standard as the play, which is fair enough IMO.
Your qualifiers on Zimbabwe and Bangladesh are debatable to say the least. I hope the test playing family keeps expanding and try to follow the games of the lowest ranked side as well whenever I get the time and opportunity. Zimbabwe have shown some good signs amidst plenty of remaining and emerging concerns. Bangladesh have showed some good signs of improvement over the last 1 year or so.
Any suggestion that they deserve substandard umpiring is, well, not at all good, particularly coming from a poster like you. It would be ludicrous to justify and find a positive correlation between the really substandard umpiring and the state of play. Because if it is the case, then the way the batsmen of England and Australia managed to give away their wickets in the first test could be positively correlated to the not so impressive umpiring and the case can be rested there.

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Post by JDizzle Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:44 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/24146575

Looking to introduce snicko, after testing, and restoring reviews to 2 for each side after every 80 overs. Think restoring it to 2 is too many, should just get an extra one every 80 overs.

Also mentions about enforcing the rules on slow over rates. I'll believe it when I see it.

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Post by msp83 Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:34 pm

Don't think just a top up of reviews after 80 overs is going the issues. The issue of consistency is not really addressed even now, and the DRS convention of benefit of doubt to the umpire contines. Not good enough.

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Post by KP_fan Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:12 pm

msp83 wrote:Don't think just a top up of reviews after 80 overs is going the issues. The issue of consistency is not really addressed even now, and the DRS convention of benefit of doubt to the umpire contines. Not good enough.
that's right.

a Notional fix
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Post by Mike Selig Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:36 pm

I think someone said the ICC have managed to hold a press conference which says loads and solves nothing. That seems a fair enough appraisal to me.

On a completely separate note apparently the affiliate nations are now only allowed to attend the ICC annual conference every 4 years - let's remind ourselves that the affiliate nations actually form the majority of the member nations... Definitely moving in the right direction still.

So you'll forgive me if I don't get too worked up over the non-improvement of DRS.

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Post by kingraf Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:06 pm

We definitely need more affl. nations graduating. This "big boys" club is inhibiting the game and causing gross imbalances.

As for finding a sponsor for DRS... Well thats a chicken-egg scenario, isnt it? You wont get a sponsor without the DRS being universally passed, the DRS wont be universally passed without a sponsor. Cricket goes where India goes...
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Post by Duty281 Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:53 pm

And DRS rumbles on, continually improving the game. If only India did the same.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:06 pm

So the ICC want to improve over rates, by giving teams more reviews to waste time with.

NICE ONE #headsgone
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Post by Mike Selig Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:56 pm

I thought the statement about overrates was a well known annual ceremony by now. The ICC state they're going to crack down on over rates, everyone nods sagely, everybody ignores it, the ICC do nothing. Until next year...

Does anybody actually take the ICC seriously?

The ashes (and subsequent ODI series) showed real and serious issues with the DRS system (whilst maintaining that it still produced more correct decisions than otherwise would have happened). The ICC's response is to float the idea of using snicko (which will solve little, because all snicko does is pick up noises, it doesn't tell you what the noise is; in fact I believe it is a recipe for disaster unless it is made clear that like hotspot it is merely an aide and not the be all and end all) and that teams will automatically have 2 reviews available after 80 overs (which will mean even more tactical use of DRS).

This achieves precisely nothing. In particular it doesn't address what are IMO (some of) the real issues of DRS as it stands:
- clearer and more transparent guidelines.
- more consistency (which will follow from the previous point - it is hard to be consistent if you're not sure what you're trying to be consistent with)
- better training of the umpires in the use of technology; in particular consider whether having specialist 3rd umpires
- addressing the purpose of the DRS system: is it merely to eradicate the clearly incorrect decisions (in which case come out and unequivocally say so, whilst producing clear and open guidelines to that effect) or is it to get the maximum number of accurate decisions possible? in which case the idea of "benefit of the doubt goes to the umpire" need addressing...
- how can you eradicate or minimise the tactical use of DRS?
- continued work on improving and enhancing the technological tools
- standardising the system across all tests. It is not right that some tests are played with DRS, some without, some with some parts of DRS but not all, some only using DRS for catches, etc. That is frankly a mess
- (what is linked) taking control of DRS away from the host broadcaster and give it to the ICC. Both in terms of funding, but also give clear control to the umpire over what he gets to see - there is a massive conflict of interest in having the host broadcaster in charge of the images; see rugby union for a blueprint as to how this could be done
- be more transparent in the communications between the umpires; I just don't see the difficulty or rocket science in this suggestion (I know the ICC and transparency don't go hand in hand, but come on...)

I'm sure there are plenty of other things you could add, but that would be a seriously good start. Instead we get... well I'm not sure what we got.

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Post by KP_fan Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:58 am

Cricket's Big three tighten their grip on ICC

I had remarked earlier that ICC is turning toothless like UN a puppet in the hands of the super-powers...and now it's coming out semi-officialyl in the media....see the article in the Australian reporting from the sideline of the ICC meet.

and that BCCI, ECB, CA are the big bullies controlling ICC and the game and the revenues and with veto powers.

In the trade-off for power.....it also appears ECB will be granted lucrative shareholding in Champions League displacing CSA

http://www.google.ch/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=newssearch&cd=1&ved=0CCsQqQIoADAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fsport%2Fcricket%2Fcrickets-big-three-tighten-icc-grip%2Fstory-e6frg7rx-1226722348242&ei=4K06UuShHY2Wswa6vYGoBA&usg=AFQjCNEUR5fP8p5h_CPwKMhNItkowmASNg&sig2=8Ey1SJFpMq9sV0R9j-y8dg&bvm=bv.52288139,d.bGE
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Post by msp83 Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:27 pm

Hotspot axed from the upcoming Ashes.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/678311.html

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Post by mystiroakey Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:29 pm

msp83 wrote:Hotspot axed from the upcoming Ashes.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/678311.html
Will we still have it as a tv tool?

i think they should have had both snocko and hot spot in this time- yes they dont work perfectly but if we are going to see them on TV then surely the umpires should be able to!

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Post by KP_fan Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:47 pm

snicko gone
Hot spot gone
tracking last man standing

and already the number of reviews have been doubled after 80 overs....positioning DRS now as ....what it was produly announced NOT to be......a strategic or speculative tool
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Post by msp83 Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:52 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
msp83 wrote:Hotspot axed from the upcoming Ashes.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/678311.html
Will we still have it as a tv tool?

i think they should have had both snocko and hot spot in this time- yes they dont work perfectly but if we are going to see them on TV then surely the umpires should be able to!
It won't be available as a TV tool either, Channel 9 has done away with Hotspot.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:56 pm

Ok i suppose,.

But i feel we are being marginalized abit as well(there is no right or wrong in this case sadly!!)

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Post by Duty281 Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:32 pm

And as I thought (and hoped!), HotSpot has been removed for the next Ashes series. Good call, and technology marches on to find an improvement.

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Post by Shelsey93 Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:14 pm

This is rather bizarre as it was, of course, Channel Nine who were the first to use it. It is expensive - and Nine need to make some savings because the rights got much more expensive - but I do wonder if they are actually holding out for the bill being taken away from them (i.e. the ICC or a sponsor paying for it).

The jury is still out on Hot Spot. When it is in use people say that it's flawed, when it's not people say DRS would work better if it was... Really it is a good indicator for some decisions, though not something which can always give clear evidence. Applied correctly that shouldn't be a problem - as where clear evidence isn't available it should revert to umpire's call. What needs to be sorted is that it seems to work better in some grounds, and in some conditions, than others. However, I'd be very surprised if we've seen the last of it.

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Post by KP_fan Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:04 pm

and now PCB drops hotspot for the SA v Pak series in UAE
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Post by alfie Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:10 pm

I guess we can live without it Smile 

Though it has not so much been "dropped" as it has simply become unavailable due to the host broadcaster no longer wishing to pay for it ...and the host board declining to step up with their money ; which brings the situation in line with one or two poorer countries which already couldn't afford this expensive gadget.

Given the problems associated with the technology - which seemed to pop up more regularly than usual in the recent Ashes Series , to the point where all the controversy started to detract from the actual cricket at times - it may not be a bad thing that it is having a rest.

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Post by msp83 Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:55 pm

Money certainly look like a concern, but its recent highprofile failures has had more of an impact for Hotspot in my view.
Hopefully there would be an improvement in the technology and it can comeback into the technological fold of DRS soon, new and improved.
And none of the changes that have happened with DRS have addressed the real issues.

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Post by KP_fan Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:35 am

a few insights into DRS discissions.......the strongest one that did not go throuhg...was on "loss of review if umpires call is upheld"

Umpire's call denied to players, reveals Sutherland

Daniel Brettig

October 11, 2013


The hesitance to allow teams to keep referrals denied on umpire's calls was also influenced by the prospect of a substantial increase in reviews © Getty Images
News : Hot Spot axed from Ashes series
The ICC decided against allowing teams to keep referrals that were denied on an umpire's call out of fear the game would be slowed down too much, even as it approved the introduction of a DRS "top-up" after 80 overs, the Cricket Australia chief executive James Sutherland has revealed. As he discussed the fall-out from the Nine Network's decision not to employ Hot Spot during this summer's Ashes series, Sutherland said the equity of umpire's call verdicts had been debated "long and hard" by the chief executive's committee at the most recent ICC meeting.

While Hot Spot's effectiveness and use has been a point of contention since the Ashes Tests in England earlier this year, the loss of referrals to tight decisions that have stayed with the umpire's original verdict created a similar level of discussion among players, spectators and administrators. Sutherland said it was still possible that such reviews would be handed back to the players, but admitted there was hesitance based on the possibility that the number of reviews may increase substantially.

"We debated umpire's call long and hard, and what was eventually decided was that they wanted to leave that pending for a little while," Sutherland said. "We agreed to the top-up after 80 overs. That will come back on the agenda, and it's not a bad idea. The ICC assessment is that if you don't lose a review for umpire's call, you will increase the number of referrals by at least double, and that will change the game. Everyone likes the idea of the referral being really valuable, and you need to think really carefully about using it, because it all comes back to the howler."

Sutherland denied that CA needed to step in to the stand-off between Nine and Hot Spot's ringmaster Warren Brennan, and rejected the notion that Australian cricket's governing body did not provide financial support in the way of other nations. He said that CA's rights fees factored in the broadcast costs of Nine, whereas other nations paid for production in-house and then charged at higher odds for the rights themselves. "Indirectly we're paying for it," he said.

"The first use of Hot Spot was all about broadcast enhancement. And in Australia that's been something Nine have sponsored and dealt with and had discussions with Warren Brennan and his company in the past, they've had arrangements that they've used successfully. We've never been involved with those discussions and never needed to be. That continues to be a commercial negotiation between those two.

"I've spoken with [Nine chief] David Gyngell about it, I know and understand from Nine's viewpoint they're not walking away from that and see it as an ongoing discussion. They certainly have concerns about Hot Spot in various ways, both commercially and in an operational capacity, and it's something they will work through. They've been able to sort it out in the past, so let's see if they can sort it out. This is still six weeks out from the series, it's not a unique circumstance where Nine and Hot Spot have had discussions about broadcast enhancements."

Debates about DRS have ranged from whether the system should be used at all to which technology is most reliable and which system makes the best use of it. Sutherland saw a tension around the issue of how much accuracy should be demanded from technology that will always have a certain margin of error, no matter how small.

"The biggest problem is what is your satisfaction level about imperfection," he said. "We can all say 'we know it's not perfect', but someone's acceptance of imperfect might be here and another's is 99.9%. That area of grey in between those two extremes is where this system gets into trouble. Not saying this is true, but as an example, do you accept the fact that if 80% of the time a nick will show on Hot Spot, but you know that 20% of the time it won't - do you accept that or not?"
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Post by KP_fan Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:36 am

the last ashes series half broke the DRS already...if they don't get it right in this ashes then it will be down to only stumpings and run-out referrals to the 3rd umpires
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Post by Duty281 Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:38 am

No it didn't. It showed HotSpot was rather unreliable, which people have suspected for a while, and it's now been removed. Hawk-eye, and "Umpire's Call" were fine, unless you're some sort of mad conspiracy nutter.

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:21 pm

I want an answer here, DRS when first time was set to introduced, it was there to remove the howlers of the game, but a team favors to use DRS for their best batsmen not the weak one like lower order, so where it is removing the howler. May be using it for a top order batsman will cost them a call and lower order is really not out. So in my opinion DRS is not for removing howlers any more, it is only for team's support not game's support. In my opinion it should be given in the hands of umpire, like that of present no ball rule. When a batsman is out third umpire checks the no ball, just like that.
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Post by mystiroakey Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:01 pm

It never was set up to remove the howler. 

This is the obvious flaw with people that keep going back to that line of thinking.

Tech is not needed(none of it) to remove howlers..

Tech has been introduced with drs and udrs to improve decision making. And the game has improved its decision making.(it is more accurate)

Time for everyone(yes i have repeated this statement a million times) to stop talking about the howler,. Its pointless and circular!

DRS and the tech has improved the game and improved decision making- and it will continue to search to improve it more and more!

If you only want to reduce howlers you only need one video reply ! that is all

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Post by KP_fan Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:37 pm

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/cricket/dismissing-hot-spot-is-bad-move-insist-icc-8871345.html

actually according to this news.....ICC says they want Hot-Spot to be a part of ashes.
Ha Ha....But it seems Chanel Nine decided that in an official test meatch between Aus and Eng under the governing control of ICC....does not need Hot-Spot....ha Ha...this is getting hilarious
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Post by Guest Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:04 pm

we cant just start taking bits and pieces out of DRS...you either use it all, or use nothing... end of

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Post by msp83 Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:19 pm

Instant Snicko might get to debut as part of the DRS package in the upcoming Ashes series, and there is a chance that the much maligned Hotspot might just get a reprieve.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/685391.html

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Post by KP_fan Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:16 pm

msp83 wrote:Instant Snicko might get to debut as part of the DRS package in the upcoming Ashes series, and there is a chance that the much maligned Hotspot might just get a reprieve.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/685391.html
Hot Spot was a good side show
and instant-snicko......might bring the same entertainment value Smile
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Post by The Fourth Lion Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:49 pm

I'm old enough to have played cricket when there was no such thing as Third umpires, DRS, hot spot, snicko, hawkeye or uncle-Tom-Cobbley and all.

What we had was a rather novel little idea.  Two men who knew the laws of the game and applied them as best they were able, impartially and without fear or favour.  They were trusted and respected and if they said "not out" then the batsman was not out.  If they raised the finger, then the batsman tucked his bat under his arm, took off his gloves and walked back to the pavilion.  We called them "umpires", and their word was law.

Yes, there were mistakes from time to time.  I was triggered more than once down the years, but I accepted it.  I probably got the benefit of the doubt on a fair few LBW appeals and close-thing run outs too, so I figure that it all pretty much evened itself out.   Some you win, some you lose.

Now we see players desperately appealing to the TV cameras in the hope that they will get an unfavourable decision reversed in their favour.  Often more in hope than certainty.  The game is stopped while an unseen official in a room far from the middle, where it all happens, pores over replay after replay, from many a different angle, looking for a smudge on the edge of the bat, or whether or not half the ball was going to clip the top of the stump or whatever.  And sometimes they even get that wrong, too, or the technology is inconclusive, or just doesn't work.

And while all this goes on, time is lost, players stand around getting agitated, umpires feel marginalised and the crowd gets bored.  Only the TV pundits are happy because it gives them something to regurgitate over and over if it rains and the players go off.

Cricket used to be a game that examined a player's character.  If you had any flaws in your technique or temperament, the game would find them out.  But now players can abdicate their responsibility to walk or trust the officials and they just turn to the TV  with their fingers crossed, to sort out the situation their failings got them into.

Some say this produces a fairer result, but does it really.?  We know the technology isn't perfect.  Neither are umpires, but I'd put my trust and confidence in a human than a machine any day.

Incidentally.... after my playing days were over, I qualified as an umpire and stood in the county leagues for seven years.  I can't say it was as good as playing.  Nothing is as good as that, but I enjoyed it because it kept me involved in the game.   But if anybody ever asked me to be a 'third official' to sit in a TV monitor room, I'd turn the offer down.  That's not umpiring.  Any chimp can do that.

And any chimp can hope for a TV replay to get him out of trouble when his technique or his ability to handle the pressure cracked.  The game found his character out, so he plays a get out of jail free card.

If it was up to me, I'd scrap the whole bloody lot of it, tell the players to man up and accept decisions, favourable or otherwise and get back to playing the game the way it should be played.  Relying on your skill and temperament and putting your trust and confidence in the umpires.

You never know..... cricket might just become cricket again.
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Post by msp83 Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:33 am

The Fourth Lion wrote:I'm old enough to have played cricket when there was no such thing as Third umpires, DRS, hot spot, snicko, hawkeye or uncle-Tom-Cobbley and all.

What we had was a rather novel little idea.  Two men who knew the laws of the game and applied them as best they were able, impartially and without fear or favour.  They were trusted and respected and if they said "not out" then the batsman was not out.  If they raised the finger, then the batsman tucked his bat under his arm, took off his gloves and walked back to the pavilion.  We called them "umpires", and their word was law.

Yes, there were mistakes from time to time.  I was triggered more than once down the years, but I accepted it.  I probably got the benefit of the doubt on a fair few LBW appeals and close-thing run outs too, so I figure that it all pretty much evened itself out.   Some you win, some you lose.

Now we see players desperately appealing to the TV cameras in the hope that they will get an unfavourable decision reversed in their favour.  Often more in hope than certainty.  The game is stopped while an unseen official in a room far from the middle, where it all happens, pores over replay after replay, from many a different angle, looking for a smudge on the edge of the bat, or whether or not half the ball was going to clip the top of the stump or whatever.  And sometimes they even get that wrong, too, or the technology is inconclusive, or just doesn't work.

And while all this goes on, time is lost, players stand around getting agitated, umpires feel marginalised and the crowd gets bored.  Only the TV pundits are happy because it gives them something to regurgitate over and over if it rains and the players go off.

Cricket used to be a game that examined a player's character.  If you had any flaws in your technique or temperament, the game would find them out.  But now players can abdicate their responsibility to walk or trust the officials and they just turn to the TV  with their fingers crossed, to sort out the situation their failings got them into.

Some say this produces a fairer result, but does it really.?  We know the technology isn't perfect.  Neither are umpires, but I'd put my trust and confidence in a human than a machine any day.

Incidentally.... after my playing days were over, I qualified as an umpire and stood in the county leagues for seven years.  I can't say it was as good as playing.  Nothing is as good as that, but I enjoyed it because it kept me involved in the game.   But if anybody ever asked me to be a 'third official' to sit in a TV monitor room, I'd turn the offer down.  That's not umpiring.  Any chimp can do that.

And any chimp can hope for a TV replay to get him out of trouble when his technique or his ability to handle the pressure cracked.  The game found his character out, so he plays a get out of jail free card.

If it was up to me, I'd scrap the whole bloody lot of it, tell the players to man up and accept decisions, favourable or otherwise and get back to playing the game the way it should be played.  Relying on your skill and temperament and putting your trust and confidence in the umpires.

You never know..... cricket might just become cricket again.
While I appreciate some of the sentiments here, I think the game has moved on. And I don't think all the idealization of umpires over here would go down with many former international players. Very often, we've had real issues with home umpires favoring the home side and the introduction of umpires from a 3rd country became a necessity. Likewise, in the so called golden days, there was no technology that could aid decision making so much. As technology progressed, and as other games adapted to technology, as TV coverage of the game reached out to more and more people, as international competition became more complicated, it has become imperative on the game to adapt itself.
But the technology has problems and such, the discussions will continue. But I don't think we can wish it away just like that. Things may or may not happen with the DRS, but technology as such will be more and more involved with the game.

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Post by The Fourth Lion Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:38 pm

msp83 wrote:
The Fourth Lion wrote:I'm old enough to have played cricket when there was no such thing as Third umpires, DRS, hot spot, snicko, hawkeye or uncle-Tom-Cobbley and all.

What we had was a rather novel little idea.  Two men who knew the laws of the game and applied them as best they were able, impartially and without fear or favour.  They were trusted and respected and if they said "not out" then the batsman was not out.  If they raised the finger, then the batsman tucked his bat under his arm, took off his gloves and walked back to the pavilion.  We called them "umpires", and their word was law.

Yes, there were mistakes from time to time.  I was triggered more than once down the years, but I accepted it.  I probably got the benefit of the doubt on a fair few LBW appeals and close-thing run outs too, so I figure that it all pretty much evened itself out.   Some you win, some you lose.

Now we see players desperately appealing to the TV cameras in the hope that they will get an unfavourable decision reversed in their favour.  Often more in hope than certainty.  The game is stopped while an unseen official in a room far from the middle, where it all happens, pores over replay after replay, from many a different angle, looking for a smudge on the edge of the bat, or whether or not half the ball was going to clip the top of the stump or whatever.  And sometimes they even get that wrong, too, or the technology is inconclusive, or just doesn't work.

And while all this goes on, time is lost, players stand around getting agitated, umpires feel marginalised and the crowd gets bored.  Only the TV pundits are happy because it gives them something to regurgitate over and over if it rains and the players go off.

Cricket used to be a game that examined a player's character.  If you had any flaws in your technique or temperament, the game would find them out.  But now players can abdicate their responsibility to walk or trust the officials and they just turn to the TV  with their fingers crossed, to sort out the situation their failings got them into.

Some say this produces a fairer result, but does it really.?  We know the technology isn't perfect.  Neither are umpires, but I'd put my trust and confidence in a human than a machine any day.

Incidentally.... after my playing days were over, I qualified as an umpire and stood in the county leagues for seven years.  I can't say it was as good as playing.  Nothing is as good as that, but I enjoyed it because it kept me involved in the game.   But if anybody ever asked me to be a 'third official' to sit in a TV monitor room, I'd turn the offer down.  That's not umpiring.  Any chimp can do that.

And any chimp can hope for a TV replay to get him out of trouble when his technique or his ability to handle the pressure cracked.  The game found his character out, so he plays a get out of jail free card.

If it was up to me, I'd scrap the whole bloody lot of it, tell the players to man up and accept decisions, favourable or otherwise and get back to playing the game the way it should be played.  Relying on your skill and temperament and putting your trust and confidence in the umpires.

You never know..... cricket might just become cricket again.
While I appreciate some of the sentiments here, I think the game has moved on. And I don't think all the idealization of umpires over here would go down with many former international players. Very often, we've had real issues with home umpires favoring the home side and the introduction of umpires from a 3rd country became a necessity. Likewise, in the so called golden days, there was no technology that could aid decision making so much. As technology progressed, and as other games adapted to technology, as TV coverage of the game reached out to more and more people, as international competition became more complicated, it has become imperative on the game to adapt itself.
But the technology has problems and such, the discussions will continue. But I don't think we can wish it away just like that. Things may or may not happen with the DRS, but technology as such will be more and more involved with the game.
Sadly, I think your last sentence is totally correct.   Sadly.

I can just imagine now, that somewhere, in a suburban bedroom, some spotty faced oik is devising some arcane device which will be marketed as the panacea to all cricket's ills... and just like everything that has gone before it, it will probably throw up more difficulties than it resolves.

You are, of course, correct in what you say about the problems of human umpiring, and it is only human nature to want to find a way of achieving the fairest result possible.  But the problem in going down the technological route is that we are constantly chasing a level of perfection which is simply not achievable.  When the on-field umpire gets a decision from his colleague in the TV booth, everybody thinks that the decision is absolutely correct.  Imagine then, what happens when closer inspection reveals that actually, it wasn't right... or there has been some sort of mechanical failure or whatever.

We expect too much from the technology and every time we have our belief in the latest camera or hotspot or some-such shattered, the only thing we can do is go back to the drawing board and come up with something that is more complex than before..... and then wait for that to break down.

There is no such thing as perfect technology.  These machines are made by humans, they are therefore, fallible.  

With a human umpire making the calls, at least you know they can make errors and that somehow makes it bearable.  There were times when I was able to grumble in the pavilion (and long into the evening, sometimes) that "It pitched outside leg. I should never have been given LB."  Plausible deniability, you see, and with every pint, the further that ball was outside leg.  And I'd tell anybody so. I never took my ire out on the umpire though. He might have made a ricket, but it wasn't his fault. Just human error. Nobody is perfect.

None of my grumbling changed the the outcome, but it made me feel better.  

Perhaps the day will come when we dispense with on-field umpires altogether.  After all, there is nothing a human can see that can't be seen and analysed by a camera, and any decision can be communicated to the players and crowd via the big screen.  The ultimate triumph of technology over humans.

I honestly think there will be some people who would be happy to see it.
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Post by alfie Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:17 am

Fourth Lion : I agree 100% with what you have written (indeed I have previously posted similar stuff myself on here and other places )

However as another oldie I fear we are swimming against the tide here and increasing use of technology is inevitable. I have , reluctantly , more or less come to accept it.

I just wish those who love to embrace the gadgetry and gimmicks would stop moaning about it when it sometimes doesn't work and get on with the game...

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Post by msp83 Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:09 pm

Umpires for the Ashes series announced. Billy Bowden, the New Zealand umpire who was dropped from the elite panel early this year has been brought back and will be officiating in the 3rd and the 4th games, on-field in the former, with the TV in the 4th.
In another move, umpire Tony Hill has been restricted to a TV role only. That in itself should improve the on-field decision making, but the on-field umpires better get it right!. The decision is couched in a different light though, as the ICC claims that having the same person on the TV umpire's seat could enhance the consistency. But Hill is umpiring only in 3 of the 5 games.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/687133.html

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:19 pm

The Fourth Lion wrote:I'm old enough to have played cricket when there was no such thing as Third umpires, DRS, hot spot, snicko, hawkeye or uncle-Tom-Cobbley and all.

What we had was a rather novel little idea.  Two men who knew the laws of the game and applied them as best they were able, impartially and without fear or favour.  They were trusted and respected and if they said "not out" then the batsman was not out.  If they raised the finger, then the batsman tucked his bat under his arm, took off his gloves and walked back to the pavilion.  We called them "umpires", and their word was law.

Yes, there were mistakes from time to time.  I was triggered more than once down the years, but I accepted it.  I probably got the benefit of the doubt on a fair few LBW appeals and close-thing run outs too, so I figure that it all pretty much evened itself out.   Some you win, some you lose.

Now we see players desperately appealing to the TV cameras in the hope that they will get an unfavourable decision reversed in their favour.  Often more in hope than certainty.  The game is stopped while an unseen official in a room far from the middle, where it all happens, pores over replay after replay, from many a different angle, looking for a smudge on the edge of the bat, or whether or not half the ball was going to clip the top of the stump or whatever.  And sometimes they even get that wrong, too, or the technology is inconclusive, or just doesn't work.

And while all this goes on, time is lost, players stand around getting agitated, umpires feel marginalised and the crowd gets bored.  Only the TV pundits are happy because it gives them something to regurgitate over and over if it rains and the players go off.

Cricket used to be a game that examined a player's character.  If you had any flaws in your technique or temperament, the game would find them out.  But now players can abdicate their responsibility to walk or trust the officials and they just turn to the TV  with their fingers crossed, to sort out the situation their failings got them into.

Some say this produces a fairer result, but does it really.?  We know the technology isn't perfect.  Neither are umpires, but I'd put my trust and confidence in a human than a machine any day.

Incidentally.... after my playing days were over, I qualified as an umpire and stood in the county leagues for seven years.  I can't say it was as good as playing.  Nothing is as good as that, but I enjoyed it because it kept me involved in the game.   But if anybody ever asked me to be a 'third official' to sit in a TV monitor room, I'd turn the offer down.  That's not umpiring.  Any chimp can do that.

And any chimp can hope for a TV replay to get him out of trouble when his technique or his ability to handle the pressure cracked.  The game found his character out, so he plays a get out of jail free card.

If it was up to me, I'd scrap the whole bloody lot of it, tell the players to man up and accept decisions, favourable or otherwise and get back to playing the game the way it should be played.  Relying on your skill and temperament and putting your trust and confidence in the umpires.

You never know..... cricket might just become cricket again.
I am not as old as you are, so if any of my words go against, or if it hurts you, I am sorry. I have not written anything against you, it was just a personal thinking.

While watching a TV serial, involving the Bodyline series, I came across a fact that cricket was a fever that time also as it is now. But apart from win or loss now a days, cricket involved how the game is played. Well that time, all Australians were in a revolt when Bradman was not selected for the first test matchin Ashes 1932 , Now though Aussies lost the ashes this time, major question in Australia was, decisions made by umpires, either it was Broad case or Khwaja being given out, when the ball has not touched the bat even.

Every cycle of life acknowledges a change, change of technology and cricket is no more an exception. Long ago, as you have mentioned, two knowledgeable persons called as umpires were given the task to run a game, and each of their orders, wrong or right were taken as God's word, but at same time I must remind that this human world captures the flaws more quickly, and that happened with cricket too. A man running at a genuine speed and at the same time another man is ready to capture the ball, thrown by a fielder to break the stumps, and there is another knowledgeable man standing 25 feet away from this happening is to decide who did it first, the keeper or the batsman. Well it continued long till we have third umpire. It is same as hitting a man 900 meters away from a simple gun or again from a snipper. Well the later has more efficiency.

Again here people on stands get bored but also they are curious now, more than before. Technologies can never be 100% trust worthy and that's true in all cases, but here what we did is actually improved the version of cricket being played in old days.

The bold section truly defines a game, but for now cricket is no more a game between two teams. Well with this I am not questioning the spirit of fans of older days, but just now people watch the game keeping more of the knowledge of rules and decisions.

GE Borwick raising his finger for giving Bradman or Jardine out LBW were just an event in the game that time because we don't have TV replays that time. Commentators also put least comment on whether the ball was going outside leg or hitting middle stump. Neither question comes from stands.
But if now in a big match of that caliber between Eng and Australia, then surely questions will raise on Kumar Dharmsena for giving Ponting or Strauss out, because being out is just not an event now. Most of the match followers know that the ball pitching outside the line and missing stumps is Not Out and if by chance they are given out, the whole of discussion will shift on this particular event, quoting Dharmsena a culprit. This happens because we all have TV replays and we can have a close look of something Dharmsena has to remind in less than a second.

I think Borwick or some one like him have not received words from people on umpiring than Dharmsena or DAR do now a days..

Well I know cricket has changed a lot, but again its legacy is still the same as it was long ago.
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Post by msp83 Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:42 pm

Some very good points there, Kumar.

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Post by KP_fan Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:08 am

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/current/story/687577.html
 
Australia news
Clarke claims DRS 'distorts the game'
Daniel Brettig

Michael Clarke vented his feelings about DRS in his Ashes diary as Australia slipped to defeat © Associated Press

Enlarge  



In Focus: Technology in cricket
Players/Officials: Michael Clarke
Teams: Australia

Australia's captain Michael Clarke has questioned the wisdom of the referral system for disputed verdicts, stating that its use is distorting the actions of the umpires as well as the players, and admitting he would prefer the DRS to be thrown out entirely if its consistency does not improve.

Clarke has also declared he does not wish to see Hot Spot return to the array of technological tools for third umpires until its reliability can be improved beyond the level seen during the previous Ashes series.


The wider principle Clarke has argued for is that if technology could prove that a batsman was out, then he should be made to go, irrespective of the initial decision or the number of referrals available to the fielding team. "I believe that if it's clearly shown that the batsman hit the ball and he was caught, then the technology should be used to ensure he is out," he wrote. "If he's hit in front of the wickets and the technology shows he is lbw, he should be out, regardless of how many referrals remain.

that is srinivasan's principle also...wow:shock: 
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Post by alfie Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:51 am

So are we to assume that Carke would like every appeal by the fielding team automatically reviewed if the on field umpire turns it down ? And never mind how much more time is wasted...

Bloody stupid idea.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:19 pm

Isn't Clarke the bloke that didn't walk, once upon a time, but he doesn't get slated for it because he isn't one of God's chosen few (ie: an Englishman)?

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Post by msp83 Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:36 am

Duty281 wrote:Isn't Clarke the bloke that didn't walk, once upon a time, but he doesn't get slated for it because he isn't one of God's chosen few (ie: an Englishman)?
Duty, don't you know that when Clarke edges to slip, he always contemplates why on earth did he play that shot!!. He believes it is best done out in the middle in the safety of the crease, and has nothing to do with walking!.

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Post by msp83 Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:59 am

Its official, Hot Spot gets back on the DRS toolkit for the Ashes. Real-time Snicko will also be part of the review process as both boards have agreed on using it and the ICC will be treating it as a trial.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/689909.html

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Post by Duty281 Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:22 pm

KP_fan will be disappointed then that the games continues to march forward into the 21st century.

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