How many Welsh players have played themselves out of the Lions?

by Gordy Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:17 pm

After last years 6 Nations the concensus was the Lions was be made up predominantly of Welsh and Irish players. Athough Wales won the the slam, I think many of their players and their team in general was overrated. They beat the other 6 nations teams, but were by no means dominant against them. Fast forward less than a year and things have turned around completely. Ireland have probably remained treading water, although they will probably argue that blooding a few new prospects will benefit them overall, Scotland can only be disappointed with where they are and Wales have been regressing at an alarming rate. Couple that with England producing a couple of good displays against S.A and Australia (lets not get into the decision making) plus a hugley impressive win against a 20 match unbeaten AB side and has the Lions team changed shape? The 6N will undoubtadly bring more drama, but as things are now, how many Welsh players make the Lions 15? And should England now have a few more facs in there?

by nobbled Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:20 pm

When will the Lions team be picked? If it's after the 6N then the answer is none at all.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:23 pm

well I think Gatland said he would pick more on form in the AIs, than 6N form.

So on that basis you'd have to think Priestland, Roberts, Gethin Jenkins have all done a fair bit of harm to their case.

by Cardiff Taffy Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:24 pm

Loads I hope. Let the other nations get there best players injured....

by thomh Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:25 pm

No-one has ruled themselves out of a Lions spot, though England and Ireland are in pole position at this moment. If the Lions were playing a test this Saturday then there wouldn't be many Welsh players in the XV (Faletau and Davies perhaps), but Adam Jones and Lydiate will challenge Cole and Wood when they're back from injury, and guys like Roberts and Warburton have plenty of time to get themselves back to form by then.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:28 pm

Well for all the blustering and wrong doings in the Welsh squad you have to think Gatland has seen and knows what the problems are, player quality is one thing Wales do not have a problem with, and combined with potential units using some very talented players across the UK and Ireland I'd say very little has changed.

The players on the fringes of a potential lions squad Rhys P/ R Jones/James/Charteris/Falatau have done themselves little favours, but there isn't a huge amount of pressue behind them.

Gatlands favourites such as Warburton/Roberts/Phillips/Lydiate/A Jones/Evans will still be his favourites, and what they do is unparalelled by their compatition ie fetching, physical threat around the fringes, big strong 12 crash ball specialist. These players aren't the best or most talented in Wales, let alone the UK and Ireland, yet Gatland likes a style of play, and they suit better than anything else around at present.

But one good game against England, Wales winning comfortably say, would not oust any English potential tourists either, so lets not get carried away!!

by doctornickolas Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:28 pm

Well some fair comments but there is a long way to go.

Some may have played themselves out (like Priestland hopefully) but most are still in with a shout.

Wales have suffered with some serious injuries and maybe lack of depth has been exposed. But how many sides other than those with large player pools like England and France could have done any better when you are in to your 4th choice tighthead, all 4 locks in the squad get injured, your hooker, and several blindsides.

I think Ireland, Scotland, Australia would all have suffered with those sort of problems.

But as far as Lions then the pendulum has indeed swung towards England after this series. I expect Cole, Corbisiero, Hartley, Tuilagi, Foden, Ashton, Flood, Care/Youngs and a few others to all be a part of the Lions.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:30 pm

It depends who you considered to be nailed on to start with (if anyone was), for me these are the ones who I said would go:

M Rees
A Jones
Lydiate
Faletau
Warburton
Phillips
Roberts
JD
Halfpenny
North

So by that reckoning, Rees, Roberts and Warburton haven't covered themselves in glory.

Lydiate and A Jones not played so depends on how they return from injury.

JD proved how much we missed and Halfpenny enhanced his reputation so those two should be ok.

North again depends on how he returns from injury.

Faletau, well was bit hit and miss and is in most probably the most competitive of positions for selection.

by Gordy Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:30 pm

Cardiff Taffy wrote:Loads I hope. Let the other nations get there best players injured....

Ireland probably had just as much injury problems as Wales did.

by nobbled Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:31 pm

Can't see Ashton making it. I don't think he'll be first choice wing for England in the 6N...
Definitely needs to regain his mojo.

by munkian Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:31 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:well I think Gatland said he would pick more on form in the AIs, than 6N form.

So on that basis you'd have to think Priestland, Roberts, Gethin Jenkins have all done a fair bit of harm to their case.

Priestland, though still not great, is getting better. The backline was alot better.

Roberts tackled more than anyone else on the pitch against AUS and missed none of them though and nullified the Aussie mid field. He needs a rest though I think.

by samuraidragon Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:32 pm

Only one I would say, which is Priestland (talking about the squad here, not the 15), and nobody else has really put their hand up at 10, so the 2nd and 3rd positions are wide open, assuming Sexton is everyone's favourite for the top berth.

Tuilagi has come on leaps and bound , but Roberts is still a squad member, I would say. Gethin was always going to be dubious, as he has had no game time at Toulon, but a good 6N could put him in the squad, though probably not a starter.

Otherwise no change.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:33 pm

munkian

A rest??? Roberts has only played half a dozen games this season, he needs gametime, he finally got to a fitness level against Aus where I realised he was on the pitch, now he needs to kick on and perform at club level!!!

by bedfordwelsh Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:33 pm

doctornickolas wrote:Well some fair comments but there is a long way to go.

Some may have played themselves out (like Priestland hopefully) but most are still in with a shout.

Wales have suffered with some serious injuries and maybe lack of depth has been exposed. But how many sides other than those with large player pools like England and France could have done any better when you are in to your 4th choice tighthead, all 4 locks in the squad get injured, your hooker, and several blindsides.

I think Ireland, Scotland, Australia would all have suffered with those sort of problems.

But as far as Lions then the pendulum has indeed swung towards England after this series. I expect Cole, Corbisiero, Hartley, Tuilagi, Foden, Ashton, Flood, Care/Youngs and a few others to all be a part of the Lions.

Doc,

I would have said those you named were in the mix anyway, though not a Hartley fan. I have said for some time that I like the sound of a Tuilagi JD center combo and whilst again I am not a fan of Ashton he knows where the try line is.

by Cardiff Taffy Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:34 pm

Gordy wrote:
Cardiff Taffy wrote:Loads I hope. Let the other nations get there best players injured....

Ireland probably had just as much injury problems as Wales did.

Yep wouldn't argue with that. Would you want it all over again though or would you prefer to let England take the strain...

It's difficult as I do support and love the Lions but it's doesn't half mess your international aspirations about..

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:36 pm

I confess to not seeing the Aus game as it clashed with England, so I'll accept that Roberts may have played better there. However, I think recently he's not offering enough with ball in hand. Then again, as with Priestland, the lack of obviously better alternatives don't rule him out.

Jenkins just looked horribly short of match fitness, which of course isn't surprising, the problem is will he get enough matches at Toulon to get match sharp before the Lions tour? At the moment you'd say taking him would be a huge gamble.

by munkian Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:37 pm

Maybe not a rest then, maybe more Wales need to change Tactics, his body wont last with constant crashball.

We need to offload more....well...at least one or twice ! There's no one on anyone's shoulder when it counts.

by fa0019 Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:37 pm

I think the Lions need a little bit more from their 12 then a good tackler and someone who can bosh up the middle.

I like Roberts but I think he restricts the backline a little.

He worked against the boks because they're very physical, very direct. Against AUS you need a little bit more flexibility in your 12.... they're the most streetwise team in world rugby.

I think JD2 would be a good 12 combo with Tuilagi.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:39 pm

Jenkins isn't first choice for Wales now James is and in fact has always been a better scrummager technically, Jenkins' workrate is what has got him picked ahead of people in the past.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:40 pm

fa0019 wrote:I think the Lions need a little bit more from their 12 then a good tackler and someone who can bosh up the middle.

I like Roberts but I think he restricts the backline a little.

He worked against the boks because they're very physical, very direct. Against AUS you need a little bit more flexibility in your 12.... they're the most streetwise team in world rugby.

I think JD2 would be a good 12 combo with Tuilagi.

I like the potential of a JD2 and Tuilagi combo.

has JD2 ever run a defensive backline though? pretty sure Tuilagi doesn't run it at Leicester...

by Gordy Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:41 pm

At the moment I would say Warburton, Phillips, Rees, Jenkins, Priestland (probably never a real consideration anyway) and Roberts have all played themselves out of a lions test team if it was picked tomorrow.

by munkian Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:41 pm

I wouldn't play JD2 out of position and Tuilagi is hardly tactically flexible Wink

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:42 pm

doesn't JD2 regularly play IC for his province? Tuilagi has certainly played 12 in the past also...

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:43 pm

Well glad to hear reports sound as if Halfpenny has escaped injury. So he's a certainty. Wood has threatened Lydiate's position and Launchbury has dented Ryan Jone's chances. Priestland should be left out of international football for Wales let alone the Lions.

JD Davies would be an ideal centre partner for Tuilagi. Adam Jones is still a certainty to tour and Roberts, Warburton, Faletau, Phillips and maybe North are looking like vying for the bench more than the test team. So the 6N will see a better indication of the movers and shakers but at the moment it doesn't look good for the Welsh players in general.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:44 pm

The issue with Roberts is as poor as he's been until last week (he hadn't any real gametime and wasn't fit) he generally performs very well against Aus, and the Aus backline is constantly closed down when he's around, plus he attracts Pocock like a fly to Poopie!!!

As much as my head says it wouldn't work I want to see Tuilagi outside Roberts, both fully fit and firing would be the meanest midfeild in world rugby bar none, but they would need a backline based around their strengths, meaning maybe Ashton would suit better than some other wingers.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:44 pm

Gordy wrote:At the moment I would say Warburton, Phillips, Rees, Jenkins, Priestland (probably never a real consideration anyway) and Roberts have all played themselves out of a lions test team if it was picked tomorrow.

If it was picked tomorrow and even if they were on form for me only Warburton would be a starter.

Healey is better than Jenkins

Sexton better than Priestland

Tuilagi better than Roberts

by **LondonTiger** Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:45 pm

None of the Welsh players have played themselves out of the Lion's tour.

by sausage1966 Mon 03 Dec 2012, 4:55 pm

Its too early for anyone to play in or out of Lions selection. Its all speculation. One thing is becoming clear - the young guns are superior to the old guard. Sod experience. New Zealand had 4 times the caps of England - they youngsters weren't phased. I wont bore you too much - but some polite observations.

Priestland is class, but he needs to believe that. If he cant, he shouldn't go.
Ashton needs to improve to even be considered. He couldn't catch a toffee covered beachball.

Talk of Wilkinson is just silly - love him as I do. Farrell was great - but it was one game.

Launchbury announced himself in a big way and Cole played well as did Wood. Parling was mister consistent. Halfpenny is a must - against Australia, he was simply astounding.

Manu is a potent force who smashed everyone and, contrary to my opinion, can actually pass.

Robshaw may not be the mythical natural 7 - but he made Richie look ordinary. Mike Brown was awesome - but there is no space for a full back and he isn't a winger. I would pencil a test for Varndell - top premiership scorer at the moment and defensively massively improved.

Warbs is a must. Bod - please Nooooooo. North - definitely. Wales front row is immense.

There is more, but I am boring my self now.

by fa0019 Mon 03 Dec 2012, 5:03 pm

would take Jones out of the Welsh front row and thats probably it....but probably not to start.... I think Healy and Cole are the 2 standouts for the positions.

Think Jenkins time has gone. Looks overweight and isn't the force he once was.

Halfpenny should travel but I think Foden is a better attacker and Kearney is a better fullback in general.

Unless the lions play with a flyhalf who can't kick then his talents become expendable. Sexton, Farrell, Burns etc can all kick well.

by Cadair Idris Mon 03 Dec 2012, 5:09 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I think the Lions need a little bit more from their 12 then a good tackler and someone who can bosh up the middle.

I like Roberts but I think he restricts the backline a little.

He worked against the boks because they're very physical, very direct. Against AUS you need a little bit more flexibility in your 12.... they're the most streetwise team in world rugby.

I think JD2 would be a good 12 combo with Tuilagi.

I like the potential of a JD2 and Tuilagi combo.

has JD2 ever run a defensive backline though? pretty sure Tuilagi doesn't run it at Leicester...

I may be wrong but I think JD2 now runs the welsh defensive backline? As a Welshman I for one believe that Roberts has been found out but do not underestimate Gatland's admiration of him!

by Ospreydragon Mon 03 Dec 2012, 5:24 pm

"Roberts has been found out" -- As a youngster, he was a v promising fullback, with great potential. He is not a great centre and never will be. We'll never know how goood a FB he could have been. Wasted.

by Morgannwg Mon 03 Dec 2012, 5:32 pm

We could just list the Wales players who would be in contention, and yes there's a couple in on reputation.

Adam Jones, Rich Hibbard, Paul James, Luke Charteris, Ryan Jones, Sam Warbs, George North, Alex Cuthbert, Leigh Halfpenny, Jonothan Davies.

The bolded probably stand the best chance of making the test team. Would Tuilagi be better at IC or would JD? Both can play in either position.

by doctornickolas Mon 03 Dec 2012, 5:38 pm

JD2 is a 12 but he gets selected at 13 for Wales because of Roberts.

Sexton
JD2
Tuilagi

as a midfield would be interesting to watch I think.

by fa0019 Mon 03 Dec 2012, 5:38 pm

play them both... best combo at the moment in my mind.

JD2 at 12. Tuilagi at 13. Dynamite combination.

by Cadair Idris Mon 03 Dec 2012, 6:14 pm

Ospreydragon wrote:"Roberts has been found out" -- As a youngster, he was a v promising fullback, with great potential. He is not a great centre and never will be. We'll never know how goood a FB he could have been. Wasted.

Totally agree. Playing him at 12 was a decent enough experiment which worked well for 12-18 months (esp playing with BOD for Lions) but I also really would have liked to him revert to 15 quite a long time ago, when Byrne lost form after that Lions tour. "Found out" not really the right expression, I agree he had a talent which has been wasted by Gatland's tactics and use of him. He hasn't played well at 12 for a long time and worse still the way our coaches use him stifles our back play generally.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 03 Dec 2012, 6:21 pm

Tuilagi would be a waste at 12. Id rather see Roberts there or screw it Henson.
Has to play 13. JD2 deserves a place in the matchday squad at this point ( who really stands out at 12?)
Certainly looking bleak for Mr ODs retrirement party, I cant imagine he wont tour if hes fit but the days of starting a team sheet with his name may be numbered.

by majesticimperialman Mon 03 Dec 2012, 6:36 pm

Re: How many Welsh players have played themselves out of the Lions?

Emmmmmm I think alot of people on these boards seem to for get who the head coach of the Lions is. Doh

Dont worry your selves, Warren Gatland will make sure Wales will be well represented. That's for sure.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 03 Dec 2012, 6:44 pm

Gatlands favourites such as Warburton/Roberts/Phillips/Lydiate/A Jones/Evans will still be his favourites, and what they do is unparalelled by their compatition ie fetching, physical threat around the fringes, big strong 12 crash ball specialist. These players aren't the best or most talented in Wales, let alone the UK and Ireland, yet Gatland likes a style of play, and they suit better than anything else around at present.

As above!

by offload Mon 03 Dec 2012, 6:50 pm

No one has ever been "nailed on" and no one is now. Some have enhanced their chances during the AI's and some haven't. There's a lot of rugby to play before selecting a squad.

by Cadair Idris Mon 03 Dec 2012, 6:58 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Re: How many Welsh players have played themselves out of the Lions?

Emmmmmm I think alot of people on these boards seem to for get who the head coach of the Lions is.

Dont worry your selves, Warren Gatland will make sure Wales will be well represented. That's for sure.

Yep, he'll probably pick plenty of them in the tour squad after a 4th or 5th place 6N finish (including some mystifying ones - Priestland perhaps and some other out of form choices), then pick none of them in the test XV, cue loss of confidence all round, Welsh implosion for the 2013/14 season, Gats heads back to coach the Chiefs while Hansen keeps the All Blacks seat warm for him for 2015. Hmm sound familiar...?

As you can see I'm feeling very up beat about Welsh fortunes after the fantastic news that our coach was given the nod by the Lions!
Crying or Very sad

by Morgannwg Mon 03 Dec 2012, 7:33 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Re: How many Welsh players have played themselves out of the Lions?

Emmmmmm I think alot of people on these boards seem to for get who the head coach of the Lions is.

Dont worry your selves, Warren Gatland will make sure Wales will be well represented. That's for sure.

by Casartelli Mon 03 Dec 2012, 7:36 pm

fa0019 wrote:play them both... best combo at the moment in my mind.

JD2 at 12. Tuilagi at 13. Dynamite combination.

Both great runners at outside centre - both would struggle to hit the side of a barn with a pass. If they were stood inside it.

Although a scattergun passing routine may confuse the Aussies?

by sheephead Mon 03 Dec 2012, 10:38 pm

by Guest Tue 04 Dec 2012, 1:32 am

majesticimperialman wrote:Re: How many Welsh players have played themselves out of the Lions?

Emmmmmm I think alot of people on these boards seem to for get who the head coach of the Lions is.

Dont worry your selves, Warren Gatland will make sure Wales will be well represented. That's for sure.

As you like to say, the Lions is a while away so stop banging the same drum when you have no proof of this. If/when we lose the series, then moan away Madge, but until then stop regurgitating your moan and when the time comes, get behind them (or don't if you see fit). Surely you have better things to do than repeat yourself for 6 (or so) months until the Lions squad is announced?

by Poorfour Tue 04 Dec 2012, 2:12 am

He's got a point though. One of the things Gatland said was that on his return he asked the Welsh squad why they'd lost. They replied "because we didn't respect the opposition" to which he retorted "It's because you don't know how good you are."

Now, unless he intends to quit as Wales coach after the Lions, he's put himself in a bit of a bind, hasn't he? If he doesn't take the majority of the Welsh starting XV, he's basically telling them that "how good you are" is "not good enough", and he'll return to a day job involving a Welsh squad whose confidence is in even smaller pieces than it is today.

So, either he's prepared to burn his bridges with the Welsh, he has the mother of all motivational tactics up his sleeve for when he returns, or he's going to pick a squad that's heavily biased towards the Welsh players, regardless of the relative form of other contenders.

I was prepared to believe he'd be open minded, but his recent comments to the press rather give the lie to that.

by Guest Tue 04 Dec 2012, 2:25 am

He's no idiot though, is he? He's gunning for an All Black job as I keep saying. Besides which, does he even have complete say over the squad make up? I'd guess Rowntree and Farrell (If the rumours are to be believed) will play a part too as might Andy Irvine.

I know from a Welsh point of view, he's been guilty of picking players no matter what they play like, but with added players at his disposal and a chance to boost his cv some more, well I do think he'll want to pick his best available squad.

by majesticimperialman Tue 04 Dec 2012, 5:49 am

Risca Rev.

Like you say he (Gatland ) is gunning for an All Black Job.

How does this 7 is it losing streak for Wales look on his C.V.

Has it done his chances of getting an All Black job any damage?

Or will his time being Head Coach of Wales national team have done his chances good?

by **Biltong** Tue 04 Dec 2012, 5:54 am

I think it is premature to think anyone is out or anyone is guaranteed a spot.

Gatland will look at the 6 Nations for form. He most likely as already worked on his preferable combinations, and perhaps even his top two or three combinations for each department, backrows, locks, halfback pairing, midfield etc.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 04 Dec 2012, 6:01 am

Gatland has won two GS with Wales which is two more than Henry won and he got the job.

by samuraidragon Tue 04 Dec 2012, 6:19 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Gatland has won two GS with Wales which is two more than Henry won and he got the job.

Because Gats has a much more talented group of Welsh players than Henry did. Has he got the best out of them? Not vs. SH opposition, where he has lost 19/20 games.

I think Henry and Hansen have subsequently proved that they are pretty good at the job of coaching...

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