South Africa vs New Zealand series 2012/13

NZ are touring South Africa in December and January, playing 3 T20 internationals, 2 tests and 3 ODIs. Just setting up this thread up as a placeholder.

South Africa are on a high following their wins away in England and Australia, while NZ should also be on a high coming off a drawn series in Sri Lanka with a big win in the second test. Things are definitely not looking good for the Black Caps however. Veteran left armer Dan Vettori has been ruled out, while star batsman Ross Taylor may also miss the series due to coach Mike Hesson's efforts to remove him from the captaincy:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8036042/Ross-Taylor-keen-to-stay-on-as-captain
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8041737/Taylor-could-pull-out-of-South-Africa-tour
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8030383/Coach-Hesson-asked-Ross-Taylor-to-resign


As per usual NZ Cricket are reinforcing their status as an amateur and incompetent governing body

NZ squads: http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-new-zealand-2012/content/current/story/595709.html
Test squad Brendon McCullum (capt), Martin Guptill, Kane Williamson, Peter Fulton, Daniel Flynn, Dean Brownlie, BJ Watling (wk), James Franklin, Tim Southee, Doug Bracewell, Neil Wagner, Trent Boult, Jeetan Patel, Bruce Martin, Chris Martin.

Twenty20 squad Brendon McCullum (capt, wk), Martin Guptill, Rob Nicol, Peter Fulton, Colin Munro, Nathan McCullum, Corey Anderson, James Franklin, Jimmy Neesham, Derek de Boorder (wk), Mitchell McClenaghan, Doug Bracewell, Trent Boult, Ronnie Hira, Adam Milne (Mark Gillespie (Michael Bates)).

Read on cricinfo that Taylor may not continue as captain. These coaches have to be put in their place. Too much of establishism going on. NZ just won a fine victory against Sri Lanka in their backyard and the coach wants the captain out.
Any idea as to what are the grounds for the problems between captain and coach?
And what about Jesse's chances of making it to the side for the tour?

msp83 wrote:Read on cricinfo that Taylor may not continue as captain. These coaches have to be put in their place. Too much of establishism going on. NZ just won a fine victory against Sri Lanka in their backyard and the coach wants the captain out.
Any idea as to what are the grounds for the problems between captain and coach?
And what about Jesse's chances of making it to the side for the tour?

I think it's just that Hesson is really good mates with McCullum, and hasn't "clicked" with Taylor

Not sure if Jessie's made himself available, but if Taylor doesn't go we'll need Ryder.

Looking forward to some cricket in the republic. A shame it only starts in January though. The tests I mean.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

msp83 wrote:Read on cricinfo that Taylor may not continue as captain. These coaches have to be put in their place. Too much of establishism going on. NZ just won a fine victory against Sri Lanka in their backyard and the coach wants the captain out.
Any idea as to what are the grounds for the problems between captain and coach?
And what about Jesse's chances of making it to the side for the tour?

I think it's just that Hesson is really good mates with McCullum, and hasn't "clicked" with Taylor

Not sure if Jessie's made himself available, but if Taylor doesn't go we'll need Ryder.

Perhaps NZC should look for a new coach. This has the potential to divide that change room big time and could place both McCullum and Taylor in dificult positions.

Pieter de Villiers is looking for a coaching position, admittedly he knows nothing of cricket, but then he didn't know much about rugby either.

Seems quite difficult to get and keep a fully harmonious set up at test level. Seems like constant intrigue and factions and power struggles....

NZC have royally messed things up in their timing.

There would actually have been a reasonable case for axeing Taylor after the West Indies tour, Indian tour and Sri Lankan ODIs: it can't have been in the plans to secure their position as the eighth best team in the world. But coming immediately off the back of a superb win it seems rather stupid. And appointing McCullum, who I can't see doing any better, would be equally confusing.

The appointment of Hesson is an interesting one: I'd never heard of him, but based on his Cricinfo profile he seems a good guy. May be worth investing some time in and seeing what he can do.

To be honest New Zealand's current problems boil down to the unavoidable issue that NZ has a very small pool of players. This makes it much more difficult for them to actually do anything to actively change an underperforming team. Whilst India could easily change half their side and still be competitive, NZ rely on making the most of often quite average players.

I read an entertaining parody of the NZ situation the other day: http://www.thealternativecricketalmanack.com/2012/12/new-zealand-ross-taylor-captain-mike-hesson/ Made me laugh.

It sounds like Taylor's gone

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8047450/McCullum-set-to-take-reins-of-Black-Caps

Incredibly badly handled

Terrible from the board, terrible from the coach.

It's official. Taylor sacked as captain, replaced by McCullum in all 3 forms. Taylor has opted out of the SA tour too

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8049862/Ross-Taylor-sacked-as-Blacks-Caps-captain

hold on, surely the board (and the coach) have the right to choose their captain?!?! Taylor was actually offered to keep the Test captaincy and have McCullum take over the ODI side, but apparently decided to chuck his toys out of the pram and say that in that case he wouldn't play. Now I feel some sympathy for Taylor here, as NZ are off the back of an excellent win in SL, but that's not a great reaction for me; where's the passion? the pride of playing for one's country? He's only willing to play if he's captain too?!?!

I don't like the board and coach being painted as the absolute villains here. For whatever reason they feel Taylor isn't getting the best out of his team (certainly NZ's performance in the T20 wasn't great), and have decided that a change of captain could bring about better results. Taylor's response backs them up for me: I'm not sure I'd want a captain who's only playing so long as he's allowed to lead the side.

Having said that, equally I'm not sure the timing is right, and they could have gone about it better, so faults on both sides. I just don't like to see Taylor painted as some sort of innocent victim here...

NZ only have two world class batsmen, Ross Taylor and Jesse Ryder - niether are touring SA, I don't hold much hope for them.

Gerry SA wrote:NZ only have two world class batsmen, Ross Taylor and Jesse Ryder - niether are touring SA, I don't hold much hope for them.

Indeed. Jesse scored 76 of 26 in a domestic T20 yesterday, but isn't available to tour . And our world class keeper-batsman doesn't keep in tests anymore . And while Dan Vettori isn't a world class test spinner any more, he's still the best we've got, and we'll miss him as stock bowler and #7 bat.


I don't believe Taylor's the best captain out there (I wanted McCullum to get the job last year). But the way his sacking's been handled has been awful.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8051643/Hesson-concedes-miscommunication-a-factor

The touring squad is out http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-new-zealand-2012/content/current/story/595709.html

Some other interesting changes, van Wyk, Astle and Nicol all axed after the SL tour with BJ Watling to keep wicket, and Peter Fulton and Dean Brownlie recalled after good domestic form. 32 year old veteran slow left armer Bruce Martin replaces Astle.

Tim Southee and Jacob Oram miss the T20s on paternity leave; uncapped players selected are left-arm fast bowler Corey Anderson, allrounder Jimmy Neesham, wicketkeeper Derek de Boorder, batsman Colin Munro and fast bowler Mitchell McClenaghan.

Very surprised by Taylor throwing the toys out of the pram.

In fairness NZ's results this year have been shocking - until last week.

The thing is, and I may be missing something, I've never viewed McCullum as a particularly inspirational type. And why he'd be a better ODI skip and Taylor in Tests, God knows...

OK. so NZ's results this year haven't been the best. Lets forget what they did in Sri Lanka for now. The captain is held accountable. Fair enough. The coach is not at all responsible.
In my view, the cricket team is primarily that of the captain. The coach is there to provide backroom support and oversee general stuff. Coaches like Hesson and Andy Flower are becoming far too powerful for my liking without being held accountable. Cricket is a different game to football, and I would rather have it that way.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:NZ only have two world class batsmen, Ross Taylor and Jesse Ryder - niether are touring SA, I don't hold much hope for them.

Indeed. Jesse scored 76 of 26 in a domestic T20 yesterday, but isn't available to tour . And our world class keeper-batsman doesn't keep in tests anymore . And while Dan Vettori isn't a world class test spinner any more, he's still the best we've got, and we'll miss him as stock bowler and #7 bat.

.

Yeah sorry I forgot about McCullum. For me, he's only a World class Test player, if he's the wicketkeeper/batsman. I don't think his batting alone is of a high enough standard.

I still think Danny Vettori is a World class spinner and more importantly World class all rounder. If he was fit and played at 7, NZ could play all of their exciting seam bowlers.

In some ways, and I'll probably be shot down for saying this, New Zealand need to find their Darren Sammy - somebody who isn't bigger than the team, and can work hard to bring about a team pulling in the same direction: something which I think has been lacking.

Of late NZ players have often looked more interested in their IPL contracts than the team.

I think they need a Misbah more than a Sammy, someone who justifies their place and who unites they players who actually give a fig.

Most likely there is more to the Taylor story than just the results.

Misbah any day and not Sammy. NZ side is not so much of consistent world class players already. They can't afford to have someone who is not good enough to make it to that side for cricketing reasons.

msp83 wrote:Misbah any day and not Sammy. NZ side is not so much of consistent world class players already. They can't afford to have someone who is not good enough to make it to that side for cricketing reasons.

Though sadly Sammy would probably be good enough to make the NZ side

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

msp83 wrote:Misbah any day and not Sammy. NZ side is not so much of consistent world class players already. They can't afford to have someone who is not good enough to make it to that side for cricketing reasons.

Though sadly Sammy would probably be good enough to make the NZ side

That indeed is very sad.

To be fair to the West Indies captain, he has shown sporadic signs of improvement this year.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/current/story/595761.html
Hesson the coach has to take responsibility for this royal mess.
Like player power, coach power also has to be controled and made accountable. Perhaps they should all go the ECB way and appoint separate coaches for the limited over and test formats?

Chris Gayle, Kevin Pietersen and Ross Taylor. All 3 are the best batsmen in their respective sides. All 3 were involved in a messy fallout, and in all the 3 situations, the respective coaches, Otis Gibson, Andy Flower and Mike Hesson have played a less than ideal role.
Alastair Cook played a significant role in resolving the KP situation, Gayle's performance in different T-20 tournaments, his sides less than fine performances since his axing and political intervention from the different island leaders with the healthy respect that Gayle enjoys within large sections of the team enabled the resolution of that situation. Who will take the lead in bringing New Zealand's best available batsman back in?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

msp83 wrote:Misbah any day and not Sammy. NZ side is not so much of consistent world class players already. They can't afford to have someone who is not good enough to make it to that side for cricketing reasons.

Though sadly Sammy would probably be good enough to make the NZ side

India would take him right now

msp83 wrote:Chris Gayle, Kevin Pietersen and Ross Taylor. All 3 are the best batsmen in their respective sides. All 3 were involved in a messy fallout, and in all the 3 situations, the respective coaches, Otis Gibson, Andy Flower and Mike Hesson have played a less than ideal role.
Alastair Cook played a significant role in resolving the KP situation, Gayle's performance in different T-20 tournaments, his sides less than fine performances since his axing and political intervention from the different island leaders with the healthy respect that Gayle enjoys within large sections of the team enabled the resolution of that situation. Who will take the lead in bringing New Zealand's best available batsman back in?

Possibly, though I still think England were very much right to drop KP. Genuine question: do you honestly believe Taylor is blameless in all this? Do you think it's right that a player should walk away from the side just because he isn't captain anymore? Is that good commitment? Gayle didn't so much fall out with Gibson as with the WICB IIRC (which is understandable, given how poorly they run the sport there, but doesn't excuse him altogether either).

I confess to feeling limited sympathy for Taylor I'm afraid: quite frankly I think it's a disgusting reaction that playing for his country means so little to him, and I know if I were a coach that's hardly the guy I'd want leading the side, providing the example for the younger players. What next? Bracewell refusing to bowl because he isn't given the new ball? Remember the suggestion was only that McCullum take over the limited overs captaincy (where NZ's form has hardly been stellar of late), while Taylor would have kept the Test captaincy. Just incredibly childish from Taylor IMO.

You mention "Coach power", but surely picking the captain (and side of course) is part of the coach's responsibilities?

Anyway, it's a mess. I wonder if the possibility of earning big bucks in the IPL has made players more emboldened to stand up to their boards in a way, as they're not relying on their national team to make a living anymore. Like I said, a bit sad that playing for your country means so little...

Have to agree MoC

Its very unlikley that there wasnt some reason beyond just results that led to him being dismissed in the first place.
Could be a row over IPL/BBL release, could be concerns over his attitude and comitment or the way he influences other players.

Or maybe the coach is an Aussie in disguise trying to make sure there a worse team out there than them.

Coaches are assessed a great deal based on their man management skills. Coach Hesson has failed completely and yet its Taylor who has to go.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/current/story/595716.html

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

msp83 wrote:Misbah any day and not Sammy. NZ side is not so much of consistent world class players already. They can't afford to have someone who is not good enough to make it to that side for cricketing reasons.

Though sadly Sammy would probably be good enough to make the NZ side

India would take him right now

No thanks. We have Sanjay Bangar who hasn't retired as yet!!.
The guy was all commitment, but simply not good enough. Played a role in winning an overseas test in England!.

Sanjay Bangar

I remember that innings well as that was back in the student days where I would watch the whole Test match. I've never seen anything like it, Hoggard and Flintoff beat his outside edge about 20 times but somehow he hung in for a priceless 50 that allowed the middle order to cash in big time.

That was a good series, wtih some huge scoring from both teams.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

msp83 wrote:Chris Gayle, Kevin Pietersen and Ross Taylor. All 3 are the best batsmen in their respective sides. All 3 were involved in a messy fallout, and in all the 3 situations, the respective coaches, Otis Gibson, Andy Flower and Mike Hesson have played a less than ideal role.
Alastair Cook played a significant role in resolving the KP situation, Gayle's performance in different T-20 tournaments, his sides less than fine performances since his axing and political intervention from the different island leaders with the healthy respect that Gayle enjoys within large sections of the team enabled the resolution of that situation. Who will take the lead in bringing New Zealand's best available batsman back in?

Possibly, though I still think England were very much right to drop KP. Genuine question: do you honestly believe Taylor is blameless in all this? Do you think it's right that a player should walk away from the side just because he isn't captain anymore? Is that good commitment? Gayle didn't so much fall out with Gibson as with the WICB IIRC (which is understandable, given how poorly they run the sport there, but doesn't excuse him altogether either).

I confess to feeling limited sympathy for Taylor I'm afraid: quite frankly I think it's a disgusting reaction that playing for his country means so little to him, and I know if I were a coach that's hardly the guy I'd want leading the side, providing the example for the younger players. What next? Bracewell refusing to bowl because he isn't given the new ball? Remember the suggestion was only that McCullum take over the limited overs captaincy (where NZ's form has hardly been stellar of late), while Taylor would have kept the Test captaincy. Just incredibly childish from Taylor IMO.

You mention "Coach power", but surely picking the captain (and side of course) is part of the coach's responsibilities?

Anyway, it's a mess. I wonder if the possibility of earning big bucks in the IPL has made players more emboldened to stand up to their boards in a way, as they're not relying on their national team to make a living anymore. Like I said, a bit sad that playing for your country means so little...

MFC, I think I am more on the side of Taylor here. He was told by the coach that he doesn't want Taylor to lead the side any more after the NZ series. Taylor then focused on the job at hand in Sri Lanka and came out with a fine performance. Then after that he's offered the test captaincy only, and like it happened in the KP saga, all that was played out in the public. Now all of a sudden the coach wanted split captaincy yet his man takes over as captain in all formats. Did the coach ever made it clear to Taylor that there could be split captaincy? The coach himself admits he didn't. Taylor has every reason to believe he was insulted and he was indeed insulted and hence the appology from NZC and the defensive posturings from the coach. When we say Taylor's captaincy in ODIs wasn't great, we also have to think he led only in 8 completed matches. They won a test against Australia under his leadership, did so in Sri Lanka as well. Did they expect New Zealand to become the number side in all formats within a year of Taylor taking up the leadership?
Taylor has made it clear that he's taking a bit of time off folowing this public humiliation and that he is commited to NZ cricket. I would say he conducted himself with at most dignity.

VTR wrote:Sanjay Bangar

I remember that innings well as that was back in the student days where I would watch the whole Test match. I've never seen anything like it, Hoggard and Flintoff beat his outside edge about 20 times but somehow he hung in for a priceless 50 that allowed the middle order to cash in big time.

That was a good series, wtih some huge scoring from both teams.

Dravid scored 148 and then Ganguly and Sachin took the game away from England and Kumble and Harbhajan bowled India to a win. But like you said, I watched every ball of that Bangar knock, it was a terrific effort from a player with a limited skill range.
Like Sammy, even Bangar could hit some big 6s at times!.

And MFC, in my view, both the captain and coach should have a say in deciding the personal for the respective positions. But eventually the board and national selection committee will have to take the call. A coach shouldn't decide the captain, a captain sholdn't decide the coach. They both should find ways to work with each other for the team. Can never be too much of a mutual fans club.

Interesting opinion piece looking at the "back story" http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10852718

Geez Pete, it sounds like a season of your favourite soapie.

Biltong wrote:Geez Pete, it sounds like a season of your favourite soapie.

Like sands through an hourglass, these are the days of NZ Cricket's Life ...





Things never change, in the 90's we had Crowe/Greatbach vs Rutherford, Turner vs Cairns/Parore/Nash, everyone vs Lee Germon, everyone vs Danny Morrison, ...

In the 80s Coney and Hadlee played the game of only communicating via John Wright, earlier Glenn Turner spend several years unavailable for NZ because NZ Cricket (lead by Walter Hadlee) really only wanted amateur players

That article gives more damning reasons to question the NZc and coach hesson. He came with a plan and he has successfully implemented it. Feel sorry for Taylor.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Biltong wrote:Geez Pete, it sounds like a season of your favourite soapie.

Like sands through an hourglass, these are the days of NZ Cricket's Life ...





Things never change, in the 90's we had Crowe/Greatbach vs Rutherford, Turner vs Cairns/Parore/Nash, everyone vs Lee Germon, everyone vs Danny Morrison, ...

In the 80s Coney and Hadlee played the game of only communicating via John Wright, earlier Glenn Turner spend several years unavailable for NZ because NZ Cricket (lead by Walter Hadlee) really only wanted amateur players

Player factions are not something limited to NZ alone. A good coach should be able to navigate those troubled watters and the board should use a bit of strong arm when needed so that things won't get out of hands. But this has been too much and too much coach power isn't helping at all.

Ross Taylor has made it clear that the coach Hesson wasn't supportive at all.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10852687

msp83 wrote:Chris Gayle, Kevin Pietersen and Ross Taylor. All 3 are the best batsmen in their respective sides. All 3 were involved in a messy fallout, and in all the 3 situations, the respective coaches, Otis Gibson, Andy Flower and Mike Hesson have played a less than ideal role.
Alastair Cook played a significant role in resolving the KP situation, Gayle's performance in different T-20 tournaments, his sides less than fine performances since his axing and political intervention from the different island leaders with the healthy respect that Gayle enjoys within large sections of the team enabled the resolution of that situation. Who will take the lead in bringing New Zealand's best available batsman back in?

Chanderpaul, Cook and Taylor you mean.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10852697

Not sure why you guys are taking the mickey of Darren Sammy.

I've got nothing but respect for Sammy.

Here's a guy with limited skills, but uses ounce of what little talent he has and has done pretty well.

ID take someone like Sammy over most of India's primadonnas in a flash.

Sammy = passionate, heart on sleeve, someone the WI can be proud of. Which is priceless.

NZ's warm up T20 vs South Africa is underway in Pietermaritzburg.

Batting first NZ posted 140/7, Colin Munro top-scoring with 39 and Brendan McCullum making 32, Kyle Abbot took 4-16. SA A are struggling in reply at 28/4 in the 7th, 3 wickets to Mitchell McClenaghan.

SAF A are now 87/8 in the 17th, van Jaarsveld just gone for 43, looking like a comfortable win for NZ.

Pete things are looking up for the Kiwis, Timmy Southee hammered a 150 odd and took 4 wickets against Wellington in the Plunkett Shield in the ongoing match.

Stick him in at 4 to replace the absent Ross Taylor :-)

NZ won during the night.

Tim Southee's ruptured a thumb ligament and out of the tour

Massive blow for NZ..

anyone called up to replace him Pete?

That IS a big loss....