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South Africa vs New Zealand series 2012/13

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 05 Dec 2012, 5:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

NZ are touring South Africa in December and January, playing 3 T20 internationals, 2 tests and 3 ODIs. Just setting up this thread up as a placeholder.

South Africa are on a high following their wins away in England and Australia, while NZ should also be on a high coming off a drawn series in Sri Lanka with a big win in the second test. Things are definitely not looking good for the Black Caps however. Veteran left armer Dan Vettori has been ruled out, while star batsman Ross Taylor may also miss the series due to coach Mike Hesson's efforts to remove him from the captaincy:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8036042/Ross-Taylor-keen-to-stay-on-as-captain
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8041737/Taylor-could-pull-out-of-South-Africa-tour
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8030383/Coach-Hesson-asked-Ross-Taylor-to-resign


As per usual NZ Cricket are reinforcing their status as an amateur and incompetent governing body Sad

NZ squads: http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-new-zealand-2012/content/current/story/595709.html
Test squad Brendon McCullum (capt), Martin Guptill, Kane Williamson, Peter Fulton, Daniel Flynn, Dean Brownlie, BJ Watling (wk), James Franklin, Tim Southee, Doug Bracewell, Neil Wagner, Trent Boult, Jeetan Patel, Bruce Martin, Chris Martin.

Twenty20 squad Brendon McCullum (capt, wk), Martin Guptill, Rob Nicol, Peter Fulton, Colin Munro, Nathan McCullum, Corey Anderson, James Franklin, Jimmy Neesham, Derek de Boorder (wk), Mitchell McClenaghan, Doug Bracewell, Trent Boult, Ronnie Hira, Adam Milne (Mark Gillespie (Michael Bates)).



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Post by Shelsey93 Sat 12 Jan 2013, 7:33 pm

I'm not sure Ronchi (not good enough in Australia), Vettori (not so good with the ball lately) or Sinclair (failed numerous times) are silver bullets.

Taylor, of course, is a very good player and Ryder has shown in the past that he has something about him when his mind's in the right place.

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Post by mystiroakey Sat 12 Jan 2013, 8:27 pm

I think nz are up agianst it this year- to play SA then England is kinda gonna push the limits of the fans..

But hey... kiwi sports fans are a bit spoilt anyway...None of us lot have the all blacks to fall back on..

xx

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Post by msp83 Sat 12 Jan 2013, 8:52 pm

Pete, its all part of the game. Ask us Indian supporters. You know I started supporting England along side India in the late 1990s!!!. Supporters of Bangladesh, West Indies.......

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Post by gboycottnut Sat 12 Jan 2013, 11:59 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:I'm not sure Ronchi (not good enough in Australia), Vettori (not so good with the ball lately) or Sinclair (failed numerous times) are silver bullets.

Taylor, of course, is a very good player and Ryder has shown in the past that he has something about him when his mind's in the right place.

Well at least Ronchi, Vettori and Sinclair can't be any worse than some of the current lot which are getting destroyed and overrun by a rampant SA team.

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Post by Biltong Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:40 am

Steyn to Wagner this morning.

"Lekker land daai, ne'. Geniet jou twee beurte vandag."

"Nice country that, isn't it? enjoy your two innings today"

Laugh

Classic.

Watley has impressed me, a very gutsy little cricketer.


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Post by Gerry SA Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:41 am

19th 5WH for a fired up Dale Steyn.

I bet the Kiwi batsmen are lining up to thank Neil Wagner for firing Steyn up.

Most importantly Steyn is now only 1 5WH behind the great Allan Donald.

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Post by Gerry SA Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:43 am

How on earth is Boult batting after Patel?

Patel has no bottle at all. Boult showing good courage.

Wattling should be opening.

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Post by ShahenshahG Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:47 am

NZ comeback starts now well done watling

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Post by Shelsey93 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:50 am

In fairness Patel batted very well for Warks. Doesn't seem to fancy Steyn though!

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Post by msp83 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:53 am

From 62-9, Boult has given excellent company to BJ Watling and they have now added 49 for the last wicket. NZ 111-9.

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Post by Biltong Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:53 am

See this is where Robbie doesn't convince me.

He can get a lot of stick, against better teams who can take advantage of average bowling he releases a lot of pressure.
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Post by msp83 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:54 am

50 partnership for the last wicket!.

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Post by Biltong Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:54 am

I do understand Smith wants he front line bowlers a bit of a break, but it is almost as if he doesn't want to bowl them out before lunch.
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Post by Gerry SA Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:56 am

Biltong wrote:See this is where Robbie doesn't convince me.

He can get a lot of stick, against better teams who can take advantage of average bowling he releases a lot of pressure.
Its like He's bowling an ODI style in a Test match ATM.

It also happened in the 3rd Test in Australia - aus 2ND inns.

It might as he's more used to limited overs cricket.

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Post by Biltong Sun 13 Jan 2013, 9:57 am

Gerry SA wrote:
Biltong wrote:See this is where Robbie doesn't convince me.

He can get a lot of stick, against better teams who can take advantage of average bowling he releases a lot of pressure.
Its like He's bowling an ODI style in a Test match ATM.

It also happened in the 3rd Test in Australia - aus 2ND inns.

It might as he's more used to limited overs cricket.
Well, I just don't think he is good enough.

He has been given leeway to give away runs because of the opposition.

What do you do with him in a tight test match?
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Post by msp83 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 10:03 am

Morkel comes back and does the job. 121 all out New Zealand.

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Post by ShahenshahG Sun 13 Jan 2013, 10:04 am

Shelsey93 wrote:In fairness Patel batted very well for Warks. Doesn't seem to fancy Steyn though!

Steyn frightens the carp out of most of the top order of any side in the world - Think patel should be given a little leeway!!

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Post by Gerry SA Sun 13 Jan 2013, 10:05 am

Biltong wrote:
Gerry SA wrote:
Biltong wrote:See this is where Robbie doesn't convince me.

He can get a lot of stick, against better teams who can take advantage of average bowling he releases a lot of pressure.
Its like He's bowling an ODI style in a Test match ATM.

It also happened in the 3rd Test in Australia - aus 2ND inns.

It might as he's more used to limited overs cricket.
Well, I just don't think he is good enough.

He has been given leeway to give away runs because of the opposition.

What do you do with him in a tight test match?


Bowl Steyn instead Very Happy

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Post by Biltong Sun 13 Jan 2013, 10:09 am

Also Kleinveldt tends to have loose spells, his bowls too wide and doesn't seem to have the ability to correct it.

He needs to work on his discipline.
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Post by Gerry SA Sun 13 Jan 2013, 10:12 am

Biltong wrote:Also Kleinveldt tends to have loose spells, his bowls too wide and doesn't seem to have the ability to correct it.

He needs to work on his discipline.
With Big Vern injured, imagine de Lange bowling in this pitch...

Rory is an honest trier, but I think he's more a 4th seamer.

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Post by Biltong Sun 13 Jan 2013, 10:13 am

Yeah, I would agree with that.

Can't wait to see Morris have a chance.
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Post by msp83 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 10:17 am

Think Petersen is doing a decent job. Any side would need a spinner, SA did find that out in Australia. Petersen has done OK since his comeback and with more game time, I am sure he'll improve.

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Post by Gerry SA Sun 13 Jan 2013, 10:20 am

Biltong wrote:Yeah, I would agree with that.

Can't wait to see Morris have a chance.
Yeah Morris is another exciting bowler.

On the whole it's good we have a 3-4 fast bowlers pushing Steyn, Philander and Morkel!

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun 13 Jan 2013, 11:05 am

Which is why I was surprised they have played the front 3 through this tour, I guess SA just play less test cricket but England would have rested at least one of their first choice bowlers for a tour like this

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Post by Gerry SA Sun 13 Jan 2013, 1:09 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Which is why I was surprised they have played the front 3 through this tour, I guess SA just play less test cricket but England would have rested at least one of their first choice bowlers for a tour like this
Peter, the Proteas hands where slightly tied, de Lange and Morris are injured. Now Philander is crooked again.

I'd like to think if either de Lange or Morris where fit, they would've play at least one of the matches.

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Post by kingraf Sun 13 Jan 2013, 2:22 pm

Kleinveldt really cashing in today, but I still feel he, along with Elgar and R Peterson should not be playing Test Cricket. Ryan Mac is as good a bowler as Rory and twice the batsman. South Africa dont play again for a while after Pak, by which point JP should be back, barring a big tour v Pak from Elgar, you have to assume JP takes his spot as Faf has gone pretty quickly from ABDV-clone to superstar
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Post by msp83 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 6:00 pm

Has JP Duminy done enough in the past to walk straight back into the team? Well, he showed signs of improvement in England, but no way should he walk back in so easily, as even in England, he did manage to wast a few starts and got out at the wrong time and so on, and never really scored a big ton or anything. Good player, yes, improved player, yes, automatic pick, a clear no.
Now since AB is keeping for the immediate future and du Plessis taking his opportunity with both hands, it has to be one among Duminy, Elgar, de Kock and Morris for that number 7 position and whosoever is picked, he has to earn his spot.

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Post by kingraf Sun 13 Jan 2013, 6:28 pm

Averaged over 60 vs England, had a ton vs New Zealand, I think JP`s recent history puts him in front. de Kock is a wildcard, but he has to be picked as a bat, not wk/bat, as ABDV is now the de Facto keeper. An average of 60, at a S/R of 81, suggests it is plausible- a number 7 a la Gilchrist. This South African team is genuinely special, filled with many once-in-a-generation talents- but all truly GREAT teams need able supporting casts. Australia had Damian Fleming, Martyn, Lehmann, etc.
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Post by Biltong Sun 13 Jan 2013, 6:46 pm

In my view only certain players have a cemented spot in the XI.

Smith, Amla, Kallis, de Villiers, Steyn, Morkel and Philander.

Faf has the inside track, but 4 test matches have shown he certainly can do it.

Duminy, Elgar, Kleinveldt, Alviro, de Lange, Robbie all show promise, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking for players to challenge their spots.

There are still a fair few I would like to see get a chance.

Viljoen, Morris, de Kock etc.
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Post by msp83 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 7:09 pm

Biltong, gerry, kingraf, how do you guys rate Rilee Rossouw? Looked good when I watched him a bit, and his stats are good though not spectacular. The guy is only 23 and his record in all formats are good.

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Post by msp83 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 7:18 pm

Biltong a bit more info on Viljoen? Firstly what is his full name and which side he plays for? Couldn't really locate him as it seems there are too many Viljoens playing in the SA domestic circles.

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Post by Biltong Sun 13 Jan 2013, 7:18 pm

I haven't really followed his career much, but from what I have read in the past, he has talent.
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Post by Biltong Sun 13 Jan 2013, 7:22 pm

msp83 wrote:Biltong a bit more info on Viljoen? Firstly what is his full name and which side he plays for? Couldn't really locate him as it seems there are too many Viljoens playing in the SA domestic circles.
He plays for the Lions, only 23 years old, his average may be slighty higher (27.5) than what you migh want, but he has a very good strike rate (44.6), I reckon he has lots of potential.

In 84 innings he has taken 176 wickets.
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Post by kingraf Sun 13 Jan 2013, 7:23 pm

Robbie is in an akward position, as the best alternative to him at local level went 0/260 at Adelaide. But Tahir has taken wickets by the bucket loads at franchise this season. Morris, Kleinveldt, O`Reilly (this guy can swing a ball), Viljoen, Mclaren are all fighting to be the first alternative.
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Post by Shelsey93 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 8:09 pm

I think Peterson is doing a top job so far. Even Swann gets collared from time to time, and he's taking as many wickets as Tahir, if not more, at a far better economy.

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Post by ShankyCricket Sun 13 Jan 2013, 8:25 pm

Surely Tahir can't be considered for int'l cricket again?

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Post by gboycottnut Sun 13 Jan 2013, 8:43 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:Surely Tahir can't be considered for int'l cricket again?

Well Tahir is still a quality spin bowler as he showed against England last year. It is just that he had the unfortunate time to come up against a very strong Australian batting lineup with batsmen like Clarke, Hussey, Watson, Wade who know how to take on a spin bowler.


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Post by kingraf Sun 13 Jan 2013, 8:58 pm

I think some persective need to be put here. If a batsman has a bad Test, then at worst he gets a pair, maybe a golden pair, and runs someone out. If a bowler has a bad Test, well the sky is the limit in terms of how bad it can get. But at the end of the day, its still only one bad Test
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Post by Shelsey93 Sun 13 Jan 2013, 10:17 pm

Maybe kingraf, though on the flip side a bowler can bowl badly for spells and still have a good game overall; if a batsman has two bad moments that's him gone for the match.

Tahir didn't just have 1 bad Test. He'd been very disappointing from the start of his Test career. In England he maybe didn't get demolished as he was by Oz home and away, but he still wasn't an important factor in the series win. Perhaps he'll get another chance next time in Asia (as, quite frankly, if they want to play 2 spinners Duminy is probably the next best in the country now Botha and Harris are out of the equation).

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 14 Jan 2013, 12:03 am

Its not just one bad Test though. I don't think he's ever had a good Test. His overall record is shocking. Its NOT just one bad Test.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 14 Jan 2013, 12:04 am

gboycottnut wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:Surely Tahir can't be considered for int'l cricket again?

Well Tahir is still a quality spin bowler as he showed against England last year. It is just that he had the unfortunate time to come up against a very strong Australian batting lineup with batsmen like Clarke, Hussey, Watson, Wade who know how to take on a spin bowler.

He averaged over 40 in England. If thats good, then it just shows how low his standards are.

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Post by Biltong Mon 14 Jan 2013, 5:38 am

Tahir is not internarional level.

He cleans up against provincial level, but at internationall level his bad balls are punished. And he then loses his nerve.
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Post by mystiroakey Mon 14 Jan 2013, 9:33 am

kingraf wrote:I think some persective need to be put here. If a batsman has a bad Test, then at worst he gets a pair, maybe a golden pair, and runs someone out. If a bowler has a bad Test, well the sky is the limit in terms of how bad it can get. But at the end of the day, its still only one bad Test

well actually it would be better to get a golden pair.. better RR..

tahir has never played a decent test - anywhere..

But then do SA need him. jeas men v boys this game...

this game will be over within the hour..

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 14 Jan 2013, 10:17 am

well done SA..


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Post by msp83 Mon 14 Jan 2013, 6:21 pm

South Africa maintained their standards and won the battle against themselves in some style, as they never let their standards slip against a pretty poor New Zealand.
Besides the usual suspects, Elgar chipped in at last, and Petersen and Faf have made further progress, so has Rory Kleinveldt.
Now for New Zealand, this has been an absolute demolition and pathetic humiliation. Will someone ask some pertinent questions to coach Mike Hesson? So you wanted Ross Taylor to be kicked out, you achieved your goal. You said the captaincy was the major problem for NZ's poor results, so what has the change done in that front? How standout was the captain's style of captaincy? Of course unlike the previous captain you wanted out, your handpick averaged only half of what your target had achieved. You got any funny little explanation like the split captaincy nonsense for that? Are you man enough to front up?
I am not at all suggesting Ross Taylor would have reversed the series result 2-0 in favore of New Zealand. I am not claiming he would have scored 1000 runs in the series and did it all on his own. I am just saying coach Hesson's charges against Taylor were nonsensical, NZ was an average side under Taylor, but they at least fought in India and even drawn a series in Sri Lanka.
Will coach Hesson be held accountable for his actions, inactions and decisions?

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Post by Gerry SA Mon 14 Jan 2013, 10:46 pm

msp83 wrote:Biltong, gerry, kingraf, how do you guys rate Rilee Rossouw? Looked good when I watched him a bit, and his stats are good though not spectacular. The guy is only 23 and his record in all formats are good.
I rate Rilee pretty MSP.

He's the youngest man to ever hit a FC 300. He's got serious talent. His forms been a bit up and down recently, but he's still only 23.

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Post by Gerry SA Mon 14 Jan 2013, 10:53 pm

Excellent series domination by the Proteas.

We've now got that ruthless streak, that the great sides had in the past.

Steyn, some claimed he'd lost his pace and swing, how wrong they where. Bowled at his best.

Amla, simply a run machine.

Rory Klienveldt is starting to grow as a Test cricketer. For me he's 5th choice after Steyn, Morne, Philander and de Lange but he's a good bowler to have around the group.

Robin Peterson did a good job. Offers control.

Faf continues his dream run. Excellent from the ABDV clone!

Elgar, whilst it was a modest Kiwi side, showed good determination and heart to bounce back from 2 poor Tests.

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Post by Shelsey93 Mon 14 Jan 2013, 11:06 pm

Great stuff from SA. They've looked like the No. 1 by a distance in this series!

I'd reiterate my word of warning for SA fans though. When England were No. 1 people tended to get ahead of themselves by comparing the team to the great teams. I didn't think it was that wise to do so at the time, and the poor form in 2012 proved me right. You can't take your foot off the gas at any moment, and its important to be wary of underestimating some challenges (particularly Pakistan away).

Indeed, I'd hope that with a long break from Tests for the next while SA will be focusing on making sure that they win that series.

A lot of English people thought we had the best pace attack in the world when we went to the UAE and that in spite of potential deficiencies batting v spin they'd get us through. They actually bowled outstandingly, but it wasn't quite enough.

Now, I wouldn't expect SA to collapse as England do - they have more players with considerable sub-continent runs in the past. But Ajmal is a super bowler and its just important to be weary.

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Post by Gerry SA Mon 14 Jan 2013, 11:26 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:Great stuff from SA. They've looked like the No. 1 by a distance in this series!

I'd reiterate my word of warning for SA fans though. When England were No. 1 people tended to get ahead of themselves by comparing the team to the great teams. I didn't think it was that wise to do so at the time, and the poor form in 2012 proved me right. You can't take your foot off the gas at any moment, and its important to be wary of underestimating some challenges (particularly Pakistan away).

Indeed, I'd hope that with a long break from Tests for the next while SA will be focusing on making sure that they win that series.

A lot of English people thought we had the best pace attack in the world when we went to the UAE and that in spite of potential deficiencies batting v spin they'd get us through. They actually bowled outstandingly, but it wasn't quite enough.

Now, I wouldn't expect SA to collapse as England do - they have more players with considerable sub-continent runs in the past. But Ajmal is a super bowler and its just important to be weary.
Whilst I understand what you're saying, I don't think Gary Kirsten will allow players to go on easy street.

Kirsten is a highly driven man and won't allow failure. He even got the Indians working hard!

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Post by ShahenshahG Tue 15 Jan 2013, 2:08 am

Gerry SA wrote:
Shelsey93 wrote:Great stuff from SA. They've looked like the No. 1 by a distance in this series!

I'd reiterate my word of warning for SA fans though. When England were No. 1 people tended to get ahead of themselves by comparing the team to the great teams. I didn't think it was that wise to do so at the time, and the poor form in 2012 proved me right. You can't take your foot off the gas at any moment, and its important to be wary of underestimating some challenges (particularly Pakistan away).

Indeed, I'd hope that with a long break from Tests for the next while SA will be focusing on making sure that they win that series.

A lot of English people thought we had the best pace attack in the world when we went to the UAE and that in spite of potential deficiencies batting v spin they'd get us through. They actually bowled outstandingly, but it wasn't quite enough.

Now, I wouldn't expect SA to collapse as England do - they have more players with considerable sub-continent runs in the past. But Ajmal is a super bowler and its just important to be weary.
Whilst I understand what you're saying, I don't think Gary Kirsten will allow players to go on easy street.

Kirsten is a highly driven man and won't allow failure. He even got the Indians working hard!

laughing

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