Thugby, the 1989 Lions and a bit of niggle....

My interest in Rugby was first awakened as a teenager by the reports & coverage of the 1989 Lions tour and the ‘robust style’ of their play: namely punching and treading on Aussies (I have nothing against Australians by the way).

The sanitised game of today is a world away and if Moore, Dooley and Robert Jones et al tried any of that mischief now, the citing officials would have a field day.

While I’m not advocating or condoning vile acts of gouging, stamping on heads etc, I’ll admit that I enjoy watching (and occasionally participating in) a good fight on the pitch.

Am I alone in this?

Ice hockey has dedicated ‘enforcers’ who skate round looking for bother (think of the Hansen brothers from slap shot) and there was a ‘bring back the biff’ campaign in the NRL, so fans other from sports clearly enjoy a scrap too.

No I enjoyed the odd fight while playing and also enjoy watching it. Im a concerned that this seems to be phased out as rugby becomes more regulated. Did you hear Boris Johnson's speech at the RWC 2015 draw.He seemed to be fond of a bit of a Donnybrook too.

By the way, the phrase Donnybrook comes from Donnybrook Fair, a fair held in Dublin which became notorious for drunkenness and violent disorder. This gave rise to the term a donnybrook, meaning a brawl or fracas. The fair was banned in 1855. Parts of the lands on which Donnybrook Fair took place are occupied by Donnybrook Rugby Ground the original home of Leinster rugby. Ironic that Leinster were once considered a soft team.

4M

There's a Canadian saying - 'I went to the fight and some hockey broke out'.

I do think the scuffling that goes on now is a bit pathetic - no-one dares swing a punch because of the risk of sending off or being cited and suspended, so there's just a bit of grabbing and push and shove. Not worth the bother.

Have to say that players like Dooley, Richards and Probyn would be on first name terms with 'the beak' if they'd had to play under the current rules and interpretations.

Sorting players out was always a part of the game in the olden days. The big boys on the opposition would try and rough up the pretty boys on your team, and your enforcers reminded them who was boss.
There's no way this is easily justified and television has put paid to that in the modern game. Before getting too sentimental, it also often overstepped the mark back then. Remember the Kiwi prop John Ashworth who stuck his stud through JPRs cheek in 1978. No way this sort of thuggery can ever be condoned - these days I think such acts could be dealt with in the courtroom.

A bit like Peter Clohessy smashing Olivier Roumat's jaw with his boot. He did get a very long ban for that though.

That wasn't a team you'd want to pick a fight with - Teague, Ackford, Dooley, Richards, Young.

I don't like fighting for its own sake but I like my team to stand up for themselves.

Being on the small side myself, I particularly like seeing the little guys giving some back - Arwel Thomas was great at that.

I don't mind hard rugby, I don't mind the intimidation.

But this gamesmanship, airy fairy foofy handbag, oh look ref he hit me stuff I can't handle.

If you are then going to do something stupid, as least have the honour to look the guy in the eyes before you clobber him.

Rob Jones Stamp on Farr Jones...then

99



Seriously ...I dont condone violence...but if you take that edge away from rugby you lose a vital part of it. Its physical and heated moments break out, players directly opposite each other get frustrated...

Sometimes a good ruck actually jees a team on and unsettles the opposition...it just needs to be managed correctly.

I doubt if you would see many fullbacks running the full length of the pitch to join in a fight like JPR regularly did lol

Cant beat a good old 99 call.

Have seen Gareth Thomas do that, bedford, when a mate is in trouble.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I doubt if you would see many fullbacks running the full length of the pitch to join in a fight like JPR regularly did lol

Who knows what we've got planned for them...though the fact i think we'll comfortably beat them next year means THEY might need the 99 call

Out of interest...which tests actually had the 99 called?

I know it was is 1989 Oz tour...when was Willie Johns and how many others?

Rugby used to be a lot rougher because officials either couldn't or wouldn't do as much to protect players as they do now. It was the culture of the game. These days players are expected to let the officials deal with matters, aided by technology, and players are penalised even when they retaliate in self-defence.

Colin Meads of New Zealand was a renowned hard man, whom I saw playing over here in 1963-4. Despite the change in rugby culture now, 'Pinetree' still topped a recent poll in New Zealand for the greatest-ever All Black.

In 1966 the Lions toured New Zealand. Their outside-half was Dai Watkins, who later had a great career in rugby league. In the final test, Watkins - for reasons only he could fathom - hit Colin Meads. It was like a fly swatting an elephant. The response from Meads, who was about 6 stones heavier, was immediate and devastating. He knocked Watkins out with one punch.

A few days later a group of New Zealand schoolchildren asked Colin Meads why he'd done that. The answer? It was self-defence!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Out of interest...which tests actually had the 99 called?

I know it was is 1989 Oz tour...when was Willie Johns and how many others?

Na wouldn't been the Oz tour, we're such nice guys anyway and usually just thugged against as the wallabies are just a bunch of soft angels really...

Think you'll find the 99 call was the 74 tour to SA

GeordieFalcon wrote:Out of interest...which tests actually had the 99 called?

I know it was is 1989 Oz tour...when was Willie Johns and how many others?

??????? No it was '74 Lions tour of SA.

All conquering 74 Lions tour of SA was where it developed from and Willie John said the ref couldn't send everyone off so one in all in

Of course, the thing is there were no subs or blood bins back in the day so players had to play on with injuries that today would be treated.

OzT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Out of interest...which tests actually had the 99 called?

I know it was is 1989 Oz tour...when was Willie Johns and how many others?

Na wouldn't been the Oz tour, we're such nice guys anyway and usually just thugged against as the wallabies are just a bunch of soft angels really...

Think you'll find the 99 call was the 74 tour to SA

Yup 74 lions tour.

Of course Aus were no angels in the 89 tour. All the biggest outbackers were selected for the warm up games to intimidate and damage. And a little bit of intimidation in the first test. I did love the media storm after the second test where we did an Israel and got our retaliation in first.

GASP LondonTiger, of course we were angels!!

Well I think having Mike Teague back for the last 2 tests rather stiffen up the Lions side!!

Having grown up through the 70's and been lucky enough to have had family who played at the top level with Newport, Ebbw and Abertillery listening to their stories even the 89 tour was mild compared to those days.

bw

My dad was playing decent level club rugby through most of the 70s, and he'd confirm most of the stories of how 'punchy' the game was back then and how important the hard men in the team were.

He also reckoned by far the worst, dirtiest and nastiest team he ever played against was South Wales Police (Hawick on the other hand were the most alcoholic...)

Knocking someone out with a punch is wrong. stamping on someones head is wrong.

however, if ritchie mccaw is laying over the ball in the ruck you should be allowed to tear the strip off his back with your studs.

rugby is getting "soft" and some if it is justified in taking it out the game, but some things should go back to how they were.

The laws should be enforced more which would help matters. Remember the days when the ball was put in straight at scrum time? This resulted in a fair contest for the ball. Because the ball is often put in a the 2nd row's feet, the contest for the ball has been removed so the scrum itself becomes the contest and this is where "the hit" has developed to win the scrum before the ball is put in. Put the ball in straight again and "the hit" will not be as important and will therefore stop happening. It will also mean less re-set scrums so more time to actually play the game.

but I digress.

Some "thuggery" needs removed for good, but dont break the game

bedford - Billy Mainwaring feature in those stories??

tiger,

I agree and am not condoning what went on in 70 but it happened and as no cameras etc went un punished in lot of cases.

Dummy,

Agreed he also said that not many of the big players of the day who were current Welsh internationals liked coming upto Eugene Cross or Pontypool Park on a wet cold wednesday night mid Jan or Feb

Most physical teqam I ever faced was Treorchy (mid-late 80s). Some old boys in the team reckoned they were wimps compared to the 70s

If you like a good punch up you should watch Ireland v Australia combined rules annual series. Its a riot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_-J3zs_82k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

..par example.

OzT wrote:GASP LondonTiger, of course we were angels!!

Well I think having Mike Teague back for the last 2 tests rather stiffen up the Lions side!!

What a guy. Gloucester hero. His pub 'Teagues' is across the street from the ground.
Pub is full of display cases with England and Lions parapernalia Teague brought home.

Have to say the beer is better in the Kingsholm Inn just up the street.

Original '99' 1974 - It was no ice cream either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnPVfbG3rVM

And 1989, Aussies did not want to be left out of this Lions tradition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Z2m6DgwQ4

1989 was one of the best tours ever, the Welsh basically caused all the problems all the way through mike griffiths and robert jones. Griffiths lamped an aussie the Aussies screamed blue murder! and the welsh blamed the english and the scottish and irish agreed with us and blamed the english too. But no all the naughty things were started by the welsh!

Sadly they didnt half make Wales pay when we toured there a couple of years later.

In the 89 video do my eyes deceive me, or was Wade Dooley actually breaking up the first punch up?

Love that it all kicked off with Robert Jones and Nick Farr-Jones - probably the two smallest players on the pitch.

Celts LOVE to blame the infidel English for everything.
It's amazing there ever is a GB&I tour with all the bitching.
Still, it keeps coming around every 4 years regardless.
Long may it continue.

1989 SHs - small man syndrome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYu5UqPFaV8

Mike Teague in more humourous mode.

If the All Black hooker hadn't knocked out the Welsh player the other day how would people view that incident?

Thuggery, cheapshot or old school?

Cheapshot from behind.

I agree it was a cheapshot, but I'm sure the Welsh guy would have got his own back at some point in the game.

GunsGerms wrote:If you like a good punch up you should watch Ireland v Australia combined rules annual series. Its a riot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_-J3zs_82k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

..par example.

I'm guessing that video is made from an Aussie perspective, because it looks like the Irish are getting the bejeesus kicked out of them for most of it! I refuse to believe the Irish haven't given as good as they get in these games

VictorU3 wrote:I agree it was a cheapshot, but I'm sure the Welsh guy would have got his own back at some point in the game.

There was definately an element of getting your own back and I dare say the players dishing it out in the first place expected a bit back in return

The game now is nothing more than an inferior hybrid of Union and League .
The worst thing to happen is the card system,substitutes,every thing is now mollycoddling.
In 1963 Willie John McBride knocked Colin Meads down,Whineray said get up we need you.Later on tour Meads was sent from the field versus Scotland for careless use of the boot.He kicked out at the ball in the vicinity of Alex Hastie no contact was made but was deemed careless.
Meads with Cyril Brownlie were the only players sent from the field before the card system [as far as I can Recall.
Players played on as long as they could stand now a slight cut and off they go
because there is so much money involved etc.
If you want examples of real mayhem google the Battle of Solway circa about 1926 when players and spectators were involved in a pitched battle.

The flip side of the "hardman" is that a smart team can wind him up into giving away penalties. Martin Johnson was a great example of this in his earlier career.. You knew you could get a few penalties from him, but he realised what was happening and controlled his temper and that was when he became a great player.

Ah my mistake i thought they'd called it in 89...but it was just a barney...

Good to hear that Im not alone! May we should start a 'Bring Back the Knuckle Campaign'.

I dont know if anyone has ever watched any State of Origin Football, but their commentators have a refreshing attitude to on field violence, I once heard them enthuse 'we've had some great fights in origin and this is one of the best!'

Google best state of origin fights, they have some crackers. Its worth paying the sky subscription just for those 3 games.

I'd post a link, but i'm new so can't

I liked Brian Moore's commentry on a recent England v France match. An English player punched a French guy in the face and Moore said ...oh we dont like to see that in rugby, then paused and said actually thats not true I think we all like to see a good fight which is if your honest absolutly true.

Calder's 89 Lions I think were one of the best Lions teams. It was ateam that was physical and skillful all at the same time.

Gavin Hastings selling that Dummy to Campese too is one of my favourite Rugby moments.

Radge,
yes, I think Campo was much happier buying the dummy than actually tackling anyone esp Hastings. Still top marks to Gavin though. Be nice to see a link on that ...