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India v England 4th Test, Nagpur

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Post by msp83 Wed 12 Dec 2012, 3:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

So we are reaching the last lap of the series with lots of things at stake.
England are 2-1 up, and this is a historic chance for Alastair Cook's side to make history by winning a series in India after 28 years. After a dreadful year where they lost 7 test matches and the well earned number one ranking, England seem to be getting firmly back on track.
Captain Cook is leading from the front, Kevin Pietersen and Matt Prior are backing him well with the bat and Nick Compton has been solid if not spectacular. Of late Jonathan Trott also found some form. James Anderson has been good, Monty Panesar and Graeme Swann comfortably outbowled their Indian spin counterparts.
There are injury concerns though Steven Finn, who bowled very well in the last match is almost ruled out. Stuart Broad won't be able to step in for him, as he's already ruled out. That leaves a straight choice between Tim Bresnan and Graeme Onions. Bresnan has struggled to match his ashes form since his elbow troubles, and was pretty poor at Ahmedabad in the first test. Onions didn't have a great time in the tour matches. I would personally go for Onions, who has more pace than Bresnan has and bowls a wicket to wicket line. But England might prefer Bresnan's experience and his previous record in the sub-continent. There are questions over Samit Patel's place as well. Patel hasn't really gone on to play a big innings so far, but he has got a few important starts. If Finn's ruled out, his 5th bowling option would be more handy for England.
As far as India go, its a test match at the crossroads for them. The team has lost 2 back to back home tests after 12 years. They are facing the prospect of a home series loss after 8 years. All these come on top of the disasters in England and Australia. The batting isn't firing, the spinners are being outbowled. The leader of the pace pack is send packing by the selectors. There are shrill calls for the captain's head.
Captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni expects his side to show some character in these circumstances. He expects Gautam Gambhir to convert one of those starts into a big one and he believes Sachin Tendulkar, as he has often done will deliver for his team and prove the speculators wrong. He things he can handle the criticism coming his way.
They are sure to go in with 2 changes as Zaheer Khan and Yuvraj Singh who played the previous matches are dropped. It could be Ajinkya Rahane's much anticipated test debut. He might bat 6 in place or else they can bat him at 5 and push Virat Kohli to 6. The other option is to pick Ravindra Jadeja who has been in the form of his life in the Ranji Trophy this season. Jadeja has already scored over 800 runs with 2 triple hundreds for Saurashtra and has picked 26 wickets with his left-arm spin. Playing Jadeja would mean they can play 3 spinners without losing the balance of the attack. The absence of Zaheer and the unavailability of the injured Umesh Yadav might mean that Ishant Sharma's experience might see him playing. Remains to bee seen as to who would partner him in the seam bowling department. Ashok Dinda has been in the squad for some time, Parvinder Awana has good pace and recent good form.
As far as the pitch goes, cricinfo reports that it hasn't been watered for the last couple of days. So the dry pitch should turn. From when onwards and how much remains to bee seen.
Weather is expected to stay good.

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 13 Dec 2012, 3:05 pm

monty has more chance getting 10 wickets than 10 runs

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Post by Fists of Fury Thu 13 Dec 2012, 3:06 pm

I'd be beside myself with glee if we made 350. As it is, I see us either making 250 or 300.

250 (tops) if we lose an early wicket in the morning session, 300 if we have a solid first hour. I fear wickets may tumble quickly as we get to the lesser batsmen on this pitch...the likes of Swann will detest it.

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Post by Guest Thu 13 Dec 2012, 3:42 pm

I'm expecting c.270-290, which I'd be okay with too. As long as India's batting hasn't dramatically improved I think we can end the first innings all square, then get a second bash at them with Cook and Compton bettering their first innings totals.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 13 Dec 2012, 3:48 pm

I say we block out the whole of tomorrow and end on 300-9 with Jimmy and Monty blocking out the last session scoring 15 runs in 30 overs!
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Post by mystiroakey Thu 13 Dec 2012, 3:50 pm

not a bad idea olly- i mean we only actually need a draw- but that is kinda boring!

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Post by Guest Thu 13 Dec 2012, 3:53 pm

I say Prior leads the way, notches a century, Joe Root bats the whole day through for his maiden century, and we get 450-5. A slow day, but one that India can't recover from. God I love cricket, so many what-ifs Laugh

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 13 Dec 2012, 3:54 pm

Who cares about the entertainment we want the series!! BLOCK TILL THE DEATH!
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Post by Guest Thu 13 Dec 2012, 3:58 pm

I don't think Monty is capable, despite Cardiff. God loves a trier though.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 13 Dec 2012, 4:02 pm

Monty can do anything.
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Post by VTR Thu 13 Dec 2012, 4:13 pm

Olly wrote:Monty can do anything.

I'd try him as a wicketkeeper. See how he goes!

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu 13 Dec 2012, 4:14 pm

To be fair I've seen many worse batsmen that Monty in international cricket. Its his fielding that's really sub-standard, but even then at least he tries hard which is more than can be said for some of the Indian fielders.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 13 Dec 2012, 4:17 pm

With the size of his hands he wouldnt have to dive as a wicketkeeper, just stick out a paw and gobble it up.

I love his enthusiasm for the game.
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Post by VTR Thu 13 Dec 2012, 4:18 pm

Agree with that Shelsey. Mullally, Kirtley, Tuffnell all far, far worse and that's only ones from England I can think of in 3 seconds.

Didn't Monty block an end on Test debut as Collingwood added some runs? And slog swept Murali for 6. And Cardiff of course. Not the worst CV for the supposed worst batsman in history!

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Post by dummy_half Thu 13 Dec 2012, 4:57 pm

VTR wrote:Agree with that Shelsey. Mullally, Kirtley, Tuffnell all far, far worse and that's only ones from England I can think of in 3 seconds.

Didn't Monty block an end on Test debut as Collingwood added some runs? And slog swept Murali for 6. And Cardiff of course. Not the worst CV for the supposed worst batsman in history!

Add Devon Malcolm to your list VTR - generally looked confused about which end of the bat was which. And he (along with Phil the cat Tuffnell) was a poorer fielder than Monty, who at least tries hard even if he lacks any great athletic ability.

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Post by liverbnz Thu 13 Dec 2012, 4:59 pm

Was actually discussing Tufnell's batting with someone last night. I think he invented the sideways defensive! He also fell over a few times trying to play with his pads to Warne. Warne was in stitches too.

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Post by VTR Thu 13 Dec 2012, 5:03 pm

Malcolm is an excellent shout. Though paradoxically if he had had any clue he'd never have taken that 9-for!

You can't beat a proper number 11. A dying breed sadly as most players can hold a bat these days. If Monty had been in the team in the 90's, he'd probably have batted at 7!

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Post by msp83 Thu 13 Dec 2012, 5:20 pm

Guys Chris the Fantom hasn't retired as yet. The most entertaining batsman on the planet!!. That cover drive is as good as that of any others, not his problem the damn ball doesn't connect with the bat too often!.

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Post by teassoc Thu 13 Dec 2012, 5:23 pm

I updated Bell's figures for his overseas matches this year.

51 vs Pakistan in 6 innings
83 vs Sri Lanka in 3 innings, and
56 vs India in 5 innings.

Gives him an overseas average now of just under 14 this year to date.

In contrast, his average from the home series this year against the West Indies and South Africa is just under 37.

These figures include a few not out scores so will have understated his performances somewhat.

So not a particularly good set of figures however you look at it. Especially for one of England's so called senior batsmen. In hindsight I believe it was a mistake to bring him to India.

I definately wouldn't have selected him for the third or fourth tests.

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu 13 Dec 2012, 6:09 pm

Well, he's had a poor year in comparison to 2010 and 2011, and a woeful time in Asia.

But to my mind he remains one of our best batsman, and indeed one of the best in the world. Although this series has been a shocker thus far, nothing has really suggested he's been all at sea against spin. My only comment would be that he could learn from watching Cook how to pace an innings against spin - Bell seems to like to either start hitting over the top at the start of his innings, or block at the start and neither have really worked.

I maintain that he's one of our best though and even if we had a tour of the UAE rather than NZ in the new year I'd still pick him.

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 13 Dec 2012, 7:08 pm

one of our best or the world..

When has he ever been apart of winning big test matches.!!

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Post by Carrotdude Thu 13 Dec 2012, 8:07 pm

I imagine Bell will get runs against New Zealand and Australia in the next year, his troubles mainly come in the subcontinent and this is the last match here for a while so I'm not too worried. The other options for the middle order aren't that great although Bairstow will surely soon be a regular, Root may bed down in the number 5/6 position until Compton or Trott aren't about and James Taylor is obviously around but there isn't a stonewall replacement lined up for him.

I also think his experience could be vital in the back to back ashes series.

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Post by Carrotdude Thu 13 Dec 2012, 8:11 pm

As for today, I think we've done OK. The pitch is a pile of turd making for an extremely dull spectacle but the battling has been good. The frustrating thing is Trott, Bell and to a lesser extent Compton gave their wickets away by pretty stupid shots and Cook got a horrible decision so we could and really should have ended today in a much stronger position.

Because of this it's hard to say what a good score is, I think if we get 275+ we'll be able to restrict India to something similar.

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Post by Guest Thu 13 Dec 2012, 8:12 pm

India look so disprited in the field, its pitiful!

even when they were on top this morning, they all still looked bored, dis-intrested, and to be honest they looked like they couldnt give a Poopie.

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 13 Dec 2012, 8:18 pm

i actually thought they looked well up for it in the first session.

not at the end though!!

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Post by skyeman Thu 13 Dec 2012, 8:34 pm

That seems to be India's fielding problem, when the going gets tough, the tough don't get going.

But after this series, whatever the result, it should get better with the younger blood.

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Post by skyeman Thu 13 Dec 2012, 8:39 pm

I frigging hate T20 with a passion, but one thing it will achieve is to improve fielding standards.

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 13 Dec 2012, 8:57 pm

I enjoy t20, but its not a test match!! not by a long way. And if it impacts on the best version of the game I would worry about its worth!!


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Post by skyeman Thu 13 Dec 2012, 9:06 pm

mystiroakey wrote:I enjoy t20, but its not a test match!! not by a long way. And if it impacts on the best version of the game I would worry about its worth!!



I can see how some will enjoy it, but to me it is a total frigging lottery as who will win from one day to the next, that is not competitive sport to me.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 13 Dec 2012, 9:09 pm

KP Interview

The viewers have got no interest in what I've got to say because they switched off four or five hours ago.

Brilliant

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Post by skyeman Thu 13 Dec 2012, 9:12 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:KP Interview

The viewers have got no interest in what I've got to say because they switched off four or five hours ago.

Brilliant


PMSL

And he was the England Captain. Smile

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Thu 13 Dec 2012, 9:42 pm

England have ultimately done OK today but we really need to grind out some more runs tomorrow, preferably get at least 270 and stick around until well after lunch.

Selection of Root working out well so far. Prior yet again coming to the rescue with an important innings. Hope Bresnan improves on his recent poor bowling form.

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Post by Shelsey93 Thu 13 Dec 2012, 9:52 pm

skyeman wrote:That seems to be India's fielding problem, when the going gets tough, the tough don't get going.

In fairness its pretty natural that when the opposition get on top, performance levels will drop. It happened to us in the summer when Amla was scoring all those runs.

It seems to be worse for India. That's partly a result of lack of interest in fielding, partly (and less valid now) a result of some ageing players and partly probably that they aren't very confident in their bowlers being able to turn things round.

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Post by skyeman Thu 13 Dec 2012, 9:57 pm

It really sums it up for me when Bangladesh can win in T20, but when it comes to the other formats Wink

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Post by skyeman Thu 13 Dec 2012, 10:03 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:
skyeman wrote:That seems to be India's fielding problem, when the going gets tough, the tough don't get going.

In fairness its pretty natural that when the opposition get on top, performance levels will drop. It happened to us in the summer when Amla was scoring all those runs.

It seems to be worse for India. That's partly a result of lack of interest in fielding, partly (and less valid now) a result of some ageing players and partly probably that they aren't very confident in their bowlers being able to turn things round.


I agree with that, but when it happens to India it can look embarrassing and even their own famous ex-pro's put the daggers in.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 13 Dec 2012, 10:42 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:Well, he's had a poor year in comparison to 2010 and 2011, and a woeful time in Asia.

But to my mind he remains one of our best batsman, and indeed one of the best in the world. Although this series has been a shocker thus far, nothing has really suggested he's been all at sea against spin. My only comment would be that he could learn from watching Cook how to pace an innings against spin - Bell seems to like to either start hitting over the top at the start of his innings, or block at the start and neither have really worked.

I maintain that he's one of our best though and even if we had a tour of the UAE rather than NZ in the new year I'd still pick him.
Why?? What exactly has he done on subcontinental pitches to pick him?

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 13 Dec 2012, 10:44 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:Well, he's had a poor year in comparison to 2010 and 2011, and a woeful time in Asia.

But to my mind he remains one of our best batsman, and indeed one of the best in the world. Although this series has been a shocker thus far, nothing has really suggested he's been all at sea against spin. My only comment would be that he could learn from watching Cook how to pace an innings against spin - Bell seems to like to either start hitting over the top at the start of his innings, or block at the start and neither have really worked.

I maintain that he's one of our best though and even if we had a tour of the UAE rather than NZ in the new year I'd still pick him.
Haha. Certainly not in the top 10. Maybe in the top 20? I wouldn't describe that as "one of the best in the world". Just a hometown bully.

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Post by Mike Selig Thu 13 Dec 2012, 10:49 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
When has [Bell] ever been apart of winning big test matches.!!

Oh not this one again... India at Trent Bridge (? 2nd test, where Broad got the hat-trick but England still trailed by 50odd and lost Cook and Strauss relatively early (2 down and still in deficit), with Trott injured) for one, where he made 150something. Simply a brilliant innings, it was him and not KP who dominated their partnership and effectively finished India off.

People forget it, but India had their moments in those first two tests (ultimately nearly saved the first test, had England in trouble on day 1, then made a strong start in reply before Broad's excellent spell, then really got stuck into England 2nd time around until Prior and Bresnan took the game away).

Plenty of contributions to wins and draws during England's last series in South Africa as well IIRC, and crucial hundred at Sydney in the ashes (against, to be fair, a terribly disaffected Aussie side).

The argument that Bell only does well when the team does is a bit out of date.

He's in desperately poor form, but do people really think Bairstow, Morgan, Root are better players?

Must say I missed all of today's play.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 13 Dec 2012, 10:52 pm

Root looked like a very solid little player today I must say
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Post by Guest Thu 13 Dec 2012, 11:00 pm

Olly wrote:Root looked like a very solid little player today I must say
We'll see how he does in the morning, but he's like Cook in that you can't faze him. Hopefully that carries into Test cricket too, because having guys like him, Cook and Trott is very important when you have the likes of Bell giving the farm away.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 13 Dec 2012, 11:28 pm

Mike Selig wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
When has [Bell] ever been apart of winning big test matches.!!

Oh not this one again... India at Trent Bridge (? 2nd test, where Broad got the hat-trick but England still trailed by 50odd and lost Cook and Strauss relatively early (2 down and still in deficit), with Trott injured) for one, where he made 150something. Simply a brilliant innings, it was him and not KP who dominated their partnership and effectively finished India off.

People forget it, but India had their moments in those first two tests (ultimately nearly saved the first test, had England in trouble on day 1, then made a strong start in reply before Broad's excellent spell, then really got stuck into England 2nd time around until Prior and Bresnan took the game away).

Plenty of contributions to wins and draws during England's last series in South Africa as well IIRC, and crucial hundred at Sydney in the ashes (against, to be fair, a terribly disaffected Aussie side).

The argument that Bell only does well when the team does is a bit out of date.

He's in desperately poor form, but do people really think Bairstow, Morgan, Root are better players?

Must say I missed all of today's play.
Given that he averages 16 in 8 Tests in India and below 15 in 8 Tests in Asia this year to go along with a poor series against SA at home, the arguments that he is one of the best batsmen in the world are indeed laughable.

I have no issue with him playing in NZ. Just don't play him in the SC. Not necessarily saying Patel is better but there must be someone in England who can do better than what Bell's managed in Asia so far. This is 3rd test tour of India and 7th test tour overall in Asia (excluding Bangladesh). Not to mention he has played quite a few ODIs too in Asia. He is clearly more than experienced enough in these conditions so his numbers are even more inexplicable. Novices have shown better application than him. And he's not even getting out to good balls. I find it hard to believe that he deserves another tour of Asia to prove his worth. This should hopefully be his last Test in Asia.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 14 Dec 2012, 4:46 am

what a partnership!!

we havent had one of these with 6 and 7 for a long time!!

Root looks brill and prior has come good..

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 14 Dec 2012, 4:49 am

So Root looking to become the England player with the best average!! Smile

only a couple more and he has his first test 50!

come on lad dig in!

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 14 Dec 2012, 4:58 am

Roots tecnique is really good. Cimpton has done ok but I think we could have found our new long term opener..

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 14 Dec 2012, 5:02 am

drinks, and a really good first hour for England, not only have they not lost a wicket, but they've ticked the score along nicely too. Prior and Root have both reached fifties, the partnership going past the 100 mark. Very well played both of them clap have England finally found a solution to the n°6 spot?

the pitch actually looks a bit quicker than yesterday, though still very slow and low. certainly run scoring has been somewhat easier. The odd ball has turned, which is promising for England.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 14 Dec 2012, 5:08 am

argggg. prior bamboozled..

out bowled.

but still decent innings

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 14 Dec 2012, 5:10 am

and the drinks break does it for India, with Prior just missing a straight ball from Ashwin. Nice little innings from him, but he'll be disappointed with that, ball was an off-spinner and Prior played for turn which simply wasn't there. Can India pry open the hatch now?

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 14 Dec 2012, 5:14 am

bresnan...! Doh


Jeasus poor old root isnt gonna have anyone left at this rate!


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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 14 Dec 2012, 5:15 am

Bresnan lasts all of two balls as Sharma gets one to reverse back into the pads and traps him plumb in front. Just planted his front foot a bit there Bresnan, and the door is truly open for India now.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 14 Dec 2012, 5:32 am

Ok so England looking to get 300 at the moment.

Decent innings that will be..


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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 14 Dec 2012, 6:09 am

lunch, not a bad session for England. They avoided early wickets with Prior and Root pushing their partnership past the 100 mark, and when they did lose two quick wickets Swann and Root stabilised things very nicely. At the start of play, England would have thought anything over 300 is pretty decent, and they're on course for that.

Root's played very nicely indeed, what's impressed me among other things has been his concentration levels. To have batted for four hours in tough conditions and still have the presence of mind to pull out the full length dive (which saved him from being run out) is quite impressive. He's looked very organised, running hard between the wickets too.

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