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1st T20i India v England Pune

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Stella
Corporalhumblebucket
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trebellbobaggins
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Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler
Mad for Chelsea
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Post by skyeman Thu 20 Dec - 13:29

First topic message reminder :

As much as i hate this format, Come on you youngsters.

India won the toss and will bowl, dew expected all night.

India team
G Gambhir, AM Rahane, V Kohli, Yuvraj Singh, SK Raina, RA Jadeja, MS Dhoni*†, R Ashwin, PP Chawla, AB Dinda, P Awana
England team
AD Hales, MJ Lumb, LJ Wright, EJG Morgan*, SR Patel, JC Buttler†, TT Bresnan, JC Tredwell, SC Meaker, DR Briggs, JW Dernbach


Not much hope being given to England, but this format is a lottery to me.

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Post by trebellbobaggins Thu 20 Dec - 16:36

easy win but in the end the loose dire bowling might have been the difference. Dernbache should go.

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Post by skyeman Thu 20 Dec - 16:39

trebellbobaggins wrote:
skyeman wrote: "Test series defeat forgiven and forgotten, India completes rehabilitation."

Love it.

who would say something ignorant like that against a second string in a game of noddyball?


An Indian fan on cricinfo being sarcastic me thinks. Not ignorant.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Thu 20 Dec - 16:41

anyway, England have a few issues for me:
- run accumulation. Not a new problem, had the same issue in the World T20. too many dots through the middle cost them dear. Patel particularly culpable, but also Lumb.
- way too many wides. There were mitigating circumstances, with most of the bowlers not having bowled at all all tour, and the dew factor, but 10 wides is way way too many nonetheless.
- Tredwell just darting it in. He's a better bowler than that.
- fielding was a bit uneven, though again the dew clearly didn't help.

However, there were a few positives too:
- Hales is developing into a seriously good player, particularly pleasing the way he hit the spinners down the ground.
- signs that Buttler is at last reaching his potential. Kept well too.
- Meaker's got serious pace, and looks a real prospect, though his fielding isn't good enough at the moment.
- they learned as they went along (smashed after bowling too full for three overs, but got rewards when changing to a shorter length).

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Post by trebellbobaggins Thu 20 Dec - 16:43

skyeman wrote:
trebellbobaggins wrote:
skyeman wrote: "Test series defeat forgiven and forgotten, India completes rehabilitation."

Love it.

who would say something ignorant like that against a second string in a game of noddyball?


An Indian fan on cricinfo being sarcastic me thinks. Not ignorant.
oh gottya.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 20 Dec - 16:48

Meh. India beat England quite easily in a T20 game. Just quite sure what we can gauge from this considering England have a lot of first-teamers missing. Isn't there another one on the weekend? Meh.

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Post by VTR Thu 20 Dec - 17:36

Devastated that the England 2nd Team lost to India in a pointless match. It will take me a long to get over this. Roughly 1.5 hours I would think!

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Post by Liam Thu 20 Dec - 18:09

Lumb highlighted today why I said I wanted Root in the side. He didn't look comfotable at all out there against the spin. Root has played Ashwin and Chwala in the last Test, he's young and in form, give him a go at the top of the order with Hales. I have yet to see Lumb do anything at International level to justify his selection.

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Post by msp83 Thu 20 Dec - 18:23

Good to see India back to winning something. Of course England were missing Pietersen, Swann and Broad, but then India too gave Rahane a chance and with Raina also joining Jadeja and Kohli the fielding looked better. Awana and Dinda also got some game time and Dinda I thought bowled with sense. Can't judge a bowler on debut from a T-20I spell of 2 overs, but I hope the selectors and team management would give Awana more time with the ODI and test sides. Chawla what is the point though? Even Dernbach is better.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 20 Dec - 18:49

msp83 wrote:Good to see India back to winning something. Of course England were missing Pietersen, Swann and Broad, but then India too gave Rahane a chance and with Raina also joining Jadeja and Kohli the fielding looked better. Awana and Dinda also got some game time and Dinda I thought bowled with sense. Can't judge a bowler on debut from a T-20I spell of 2 overs, but I hope the selectors and team management would give Awana more time with the ODI and test sides. Chawla what is the point though? Even Dernbach is better.
You are forgetting Finn, who is far, far better than Broad.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 20 Dec - 19:30

How does Dirtbag get into the England side? picard picard

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 20 Dec - 19:35

Sami Patel why oh why do we persist with him. Their can't be another player with a major nation who is zone consistently useless yet gets picked for all 3 formats. Almost makes me miss bopara

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 20 Dec - 19:36

ShankyCricket wrote:How does Dirtbag get into the England side? picard picard

By offering variety and having decent career figures?

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Post by skyeman Thu 20 Dec - 19:49

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Sami Patel why oh why do we persist with him. Their can't be another player with a major nation who is zone consistently useless yet gets picked for all 3 formats. Almost makes me miss bopara


God, must be bad Smile

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Post by skyeman Thu 20 Dec - 19:54

Like Bopara, Patel is one that they thought they saw something in and they just don't want to admit their mistake too soon, but with their recent admissions/inclusions on form, hopefully that will be a thing of the past.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 20 Dec - 19:57

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:How does Dirtbag get into the England side? picard picard

By offering variety and having decent career figures?
The only T20 that matters is the World T20 and I don't seem to remember him conjuring up even half decent figures in that tournament.

As far as his variety is concerned, I'd have to agree. He offers wonderful variety to the side in terms of economy rate ranging nicely from 9 rpo to 12 rpo. thumbsup

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Post by skyeman Thu 20 Dec - 19:59

Dernbach, apart from the very rare brill outing is a useless Poopie bag imo.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 20 Dec - 20:02

From what I saw of Buttler today, he seems to be fairly tidy behind the stumps and a better gloveman than Kieswetter and not the part time keeper he was made out to be. No reason why he shouldn't keep in ODIs.

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Post by msp83 Thu 20 Dec - 20:05

Dernbach's slow balls and even slower ones were a novelty ones upon a time. But England's concept of him as the ultimate death bowler is a feeling happily shared by opposition batsmen these days!.

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Post by msp83 Thu 20 Dec - 20:08

Buttler did keep well and I was impressed. Certainly far from being a less than average keeper. Might be worth a shot with the gloves in the ODI side.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 20 Dec - 20:11

msp83 wrote:Buttler did keep well and I was impressed. Certainly far from being a less than average keeper. Might be worth a shot with the gloves in the ODI side.
Unless they want to recall Prior (which I obviously won't mind), Buttler seems the logical choice. Far better than Kieswetter in both the departments. Bairstow is another option though is an inferior keeper and is probably not quite suited to playing the finishers' role. Needs time to get in. So at 6, I'd have Buttler.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 20 Dec - 20:12

msp83 wrote:Dernbach's slow balls and even slower ones were a novelty ones upon a time. But England's concept of him as the ultimate death bowler is a feeling happily shared by opposition batsmen these days!.
Dernbach still does trouble the batsmen. Very difficult to decide whether to hit him for a six or a four.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 20 Dec - 20:17

ShankyCricket wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:How does Dirtbag get into the England side? picard picard

By offering variety and having decent career figures?
The only T20 that matters is the World T20 and I don't seem to remember him conjuring up even half decent figures in that tournament.

As far as his variety is concerned, I'd have to agree. He offers wonderful variety to the side in terms of economy rate ranging nicely from 9 rpo to 12 rpo. thumbsup


His economy rate is about 8, like any borrowing in this format he sometimes gets tanked especially as he now tends to bowl the powerplays.
I'm no great fan but he's not as bad as some people make out, especially in a team of makeweights.
It's a but unfair he's copping all the sauce when wonderkind got robbed for 18 and sat down

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Post by skyeman Thu 20 Dec - 20:18

Or gives 9 ball overs.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 20 Dec - 20:20

Bresnan doesn't look international standard either, at present. Alas! With so many first choice players rested, would've been the best chance to try out someone like Topley (leading wicket taker in FL T20 last season). Need that left arm variety. Instead, we've picked Harris, who is much better in FC cricket.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 20 Dec - 20:21

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:How does Dirtbag get into the England side? picard picard

By offering variety and having decent career figures?
The only T20 that matters is the World T20 and I don't seem to remember him conjuring up even half decent figures in that tournament.

As far as his variety is concerned, I'd have to agree. He offers wonderful variety to the side in terms of economy rate ranging nicely from 9 rpo to 12 rpo. thumbsup


His economy rate is about 8, like any borrowing in this format he sometimes gets tanked especially as he now tends to bowl the powerplays.
I'm no great fan but he's not as bad as some people make out, especially in a team of makeweights.
It's a but unfair he's copping all the sauce when wonderkind got robbed for 18 and sat down
I'm talking about the World T20. Went for over 40 in all the matches that he played except Afghanistan.

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Post by skyeman Thu 20 Dec - 20:25

I would love to see a stat on the most wides by a bowler in T20i for the last two years, i would put a ton on JD being high on the list. Which show's poor bowling.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 20 Dec - 21:46

Oh sorry I didnt realise we were judging people solely on their bad performances.

How did Jeeves Butler get on in the world T20?
Nudges his career average up to 17 and suddenly hes Adam Gilchrist?

The question was why does he get picked? The answer is because hes has in the past performed well and has ability. If he doenst start doing it again he'll get dropped...unless hes Samit Patel. To be honest yeah he probably should be for the next game, but dont try and pretend he was only picked as a joke or to go easy on the Indians. Hes done far better in the past than certain people are willing to credit him for, and weve seen much worse performances from players with far more caps and bigger reputations at times.

The way some of you carry on its like he was Micheal Lumb or something.

We all have our favourites but please dont deliberately cherry pick which performances count vs those that dont just to suit your own prejudices. Luke Wright has had far more bad games for England than Dernbach has caps, yet everyone suddenly "always knew he'd come good".

90% of the internet is in love with Bairstow, despite him having a worse record in all formats than Bopara (Ok hesactually slightly better in tests batting but for the sake of the point Im trying to make can we imagine he isnt please or maybe count Boparas one wicket as 100? thanks!)

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Post by skyeman Thu 20 Dec - 21:55

Wright, Bopara, Lumb, Dernbach all Poopie and no where near an England Team.

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Post by skyeman Thu 20 Dec - 21:58

And give me strength, if it were not for TWO decent games, his figures would be worse than the worst.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Thu 20 Dec - 23:14

It's curious that Meaker often has not been trusted to play for Surrey in limited overs matches. Often leaks runs. But he has been really good for Surrey in the county championship for a couple of seasons. I suspect England are getting him used to the England set up via the Lions and now via limited overs. But it is really test match cricket that they are preparing him for. He may or may not make that. And perhaps more likely than seemed a while back if Broad and Bresnan are going through really difficult period.

Dernbach fundamentally lacks control. He had masses of variation, but has been found out. If you get a reputation as a good "death" bowler in T20 that's a pretty exposed position to occupy. Lose the plot and you are being carted around at 10+ an over.... and leaking wides all over the place in an effort to avoid being hit for repeated boundaries.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 21 Dec - 8:36

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:It's curious that Meaker often has not been trusted to play for Surrey in limited overs matches. Often leaks runs. But he has been really good for Surrey in the county championship for a couple of seasons. I suspect England are getting him used to the England set up via the Lions and now via limited overs. But it is really test match cricket that they are preparing him for. He may or may not make that. And perhaps more likely than seemed a while back if Broad and Bresnan are going through really difficult period.


Also see Root, Bairstow and the lad Harris. Even Buttler doesnt have a wonderful domestic T20 record, its List A hes excelled in...yet only has one cap in ODIs

England clearly see a hierachy with these formats, and out T20 team is suffering as a result. How great it is for these guys to be exposed to international cricket in their weakest formats first and forced to try and adapt their natural game too Im not sure either...although Bresnan and Broad did come through that route.


skyeman wrote:And give me strength, if it were not for TWO decent games, his figures would be worse than the worst.

Actually its the other way round. hes only had 5 games with and economy rate worset than 7.75, half his games its been 6.5 or lower. Hes only been wicketless on 5 out of 17 games.
Its his few bad perfomances that have dragged his stats down. The problem is hes had 4 in a row plus one earlier in the year.
he has had a good year in ODIs though, except his last one...which again is probably where the hate comes from. hes had a really bad run of games, and frankly was a "left field" pick in the first place.
I dont think hes ever been anyones favourite player ( except KP Fan who insisted teaming him with Finn was Englands only hope on this tour) and frankly he is playing himslef out of the team.

But lets not rewrite history here. He has done well for England till the last few months where his forms dissapeared, and I agree that this may partly be teams analysts working him out and preparing their batsmen to deal with him


Which is another thing. England dont seem to have planned much for this, not in the same way they did for the tests anyway. It appears they had a theory for the spinners though ..to chuck it in quick rather than finviting the Indians to hit them out the park. It didnt work.I'll give Lumb the benefit of the doubt and say he was asked to play a sort of anchor role whilst Hales scored freely, if thats the case why not just pick Root and be done with it.

And poor old Briggs, hes had a tough start to his international career. needs to start delivering at some point...otherwise shoudl we look back to Panessar as a second spin option? Or recall Borthwick who did really well on his debut?


Theres plenty of options out there, Id like to think the make up of the T20 side is quite open. With the likes of Bresnan, Broad, Swann, Keisweter, Bopara, (yeah I said it!), Finn and KP theres a lot of experience out there as well as guys like Stokes or Taylor whove been overlooked for now and untried kids like the lad Vince.


Whats for sure is that this current side look limp and short on quality.

Lumb and Patel have never done it. Wright has had a few good inning since his recall but still dissapoints more often than not, this game he did well with bat and ball and deserves to stay in ...for the make up of the side as much as anything else. Morgans had a pretty poor 2012 but hes still the one proven class batsman in that side, although Hales is establishing himself quickly as a real force...certainly those are two who must stay. Buttler as a keeper batsman hes showing signs he could improve on his poor start, certainly a better option than Bairstow...but still has plenty to prove and is perhaps lucky that England seem to have drawn a red line under Prior. The current bowlers are an easily forgettable bunch, Dernbachs in woeful form, Briggs isnt delivering (although early days), Tredwells a pretty average player place sitting for Swann, the lad Meaker is obviously deputy Finn and yeah may go on to do something of note but currently is just a lad who bowls quick rather than a fearsome international bowling force.

Of them Id say only Hales and Morgan are secure class players. Buttler could well become that, Briggs Meaker Wright deserve continued chances to get there.
The rest...meh. Even looking at the squad guys theres guys like Root and Harris who I just dont see as likely to become great T20 players. Woakes though is the internets great hope, maybe just maybe England will play him?

Mind theyll probably go and rack up 300 in the next game and bowl India out for 50 then we'll all be saying what world class players this lot are

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 21 Dec - 10:12

that's actually a very good post PSW, certainly a more measured response than some of the knee-jerk reactions that have been thrown around, the daftest probably being whoever claimed Buttler was a far better keeper than Kieswetter: No he isn't! otherwise he would be first choice keeper for Somerset, which he isn't (Kieswetter is). Buttler kept well yesterday, I was quite impressed given I thought he was a real part-time keeper: his movement was sharp, and he certainly looked better behind the stumps than Bairstow did in the T20 WC. However, let's not kid ourselves, that was one of the easiest innings to keep wicket you're ever likely to have: no chances, only a few wides to gather, even bounce on a true pitch, and not one take needed off the spinners. So it's still very early, and if he has a poor time in the next game I'm sure people will immediately be on his back.

On Dernbach, I'm not sure it's a case of teams working him out, more a case of him not bowling well, simply put. Yesterday he didn't actually bowl a slower ball in the PP, his pace was good and he swung it, but his lines were all over the place. It's worth nothing that he bowled his two PP overs before England came up with the plan of bowling short, so that didn't help, but still he bowled badly.

I still think he's a good bowler worth persevering with, but going through a bad patch at the moment.

tempted to pick Root instead of Lumb for the next game, but other than that wouldn't chance much. Simply put, England are missing KP, Swann, Broad and Finn. That's pretty much (with Morgan, and maybe now Hales) the spine of the team. Any team would be struggling in those conditions, so let's not be all doom and gloom.

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Post by Stella Fri 21 Dec - 10:15

Buttler like Bairstow is at best competent behind the stumps.

The latter has flown home, btw.
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Post by Fists of Fury Fri 21 Dec - 10:55

Buttler is a decent keeper, nothing more, and a very exciting batsman. To suggest that he is a better keeper and batsman than Kieswetter is incorrect.

He clears those ropes though, and that is exactly what is required in this format. I like the look of him, he easily makes my side.

Hales
Pietersen
Wright
Morgan
Buttler
Bairstow
Stokes/Woakes (though he's a far better FC bowler than T20 - excellent bat, however)
Broad
Swann
Wood (guy from Hants?...looks a fine bowler! Get him in!)
Finn

Might have missed someone, I'm still steaming drunk from my work Christmas do last night...like the undead this morning.

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Post by Stella Fri 21 Dec - 10:56

Buttler to keep?

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Post by Fists of Fury Fri 21 Dec - 11:36

Yeah I think so, Stella. He's a work in progress, but he is ok. I guess if we wanted to be truly comfortable with our keeper then Prior would have to be reinstated.

Kieswetter is decent...takes some spectacular catches but isn't quite up to scratch standing up to the spinners, that's perhaps his key weakness.

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Post by Stella Fri 21 Dec - 11:46

Yeah, he looks a better bet than Bairstow with the gloves.
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Post by Shelsey93 Fri 21 Dec - 11:48

I agree with most that Lumb doesn't look up to it. Its telling that Trescothick said on commentary that in county cricket he has a known weakness against off-spin. In T20Is that's a pretty major concern with Ashwin, Ajmal and others floating around to take the new ball against him. Given how short T20s are his innings was potentially pretty significant: turn 1 off 10 into 15 off 10 and it makes a big difference to the score. I know Lumb had success in 2010, but he's not in that sort of form now. I'd like some class at the top of the order, which should come from KP when he's not resting. I think Bell would be good in that role too. But for a variety of reasons I don't want Cook playing T20. Firstly, I'm not sure he quite has the shots to do more than rotate the strike and deal with the bad balls. Secondly, he's captain in the other two formats and doing that, and opening the batting is mentally draining: he needs a rest at some point and T20s are a good opportunity for that. I don't see the point in disrupting that just to test whether he can cut it in T20.

I'm quite happy with Hales and Wright in T20. I think Hales might ultimately end up being a frustrating player, but right now he looks pretty good. Wright is playing good T20 and hits the ball cleaner than most in the world - I don't see a role for him in the ODI squad, but he's doing a job in this format. Then we obviously have Morgan 4.

The keeping issue is interesting. I'm not sure I quite agree with MFC that Buttler not being first choice at Somerset necessarily means he's a worse 'keeper than Kieswetter. Kieswetter came first and did fine, and with him being in the England reckoning, it doesn't make sense to break with the status quo. But whenever I've seen Buttler keep he's done well. Bairstow has been managed a bit differently: as soon as he got in the team pretty much, Yorkshire were keen to give him the gloves (perhaps because they felt Brophy didn't earn a place with the bat; perhaps because they thought Bairstow's England chances would be boosted if he kept). For me, Buttler is a tremendous player. I think he has the potential to develop into a fine number 6. Some of his innings at domestic level, including against some pretty good attacks, have been world class. With how few T20Is they play, a player in that position is always likely to take a while to establish himself. But he's now twice shown what he can do.

I'd have Bairstow at 5 ahead of Patel usually. Given that Patel played a good knock in the last WT20 match and Bairstow's woes against spin in one-day cricket, it made sense to play Patel yesterday. But under normal circumstances I'm not sure Patel's good enough to be a member of our top six - he's not really a power player and faces a lot of dot balls. Just to throw another name in who I think is a cracking T20 player and is now England qualified, Gary Ballance could challenge his Yorkshire teammate.

Then with that top 6 we need 5 bowlers, with Wright and KP as cover. I think Bresnan may have run his race for now. I've been a big fan of his generally, but he just hasn't quite looked right since the elbow injury, even if he's got close a couple of times. Certainly I wouldn't take him in the Test squad to NZ. I'm a bit more confused about what to do in one-day cricket, as he balances things up pretty well by batting 7.

My 3 seamers are ideally Finn, Broad and, depending on conditions, Meaker or Wood. I think Finn and Broad are nailed on in this format. I think Dernbach has something to offer with his variations at the death (even Malinga goes round the park at the end from time to time), but his normal bowling is well below par. Thus, I'd like him to spend some more time developing his bowling with Surrey. I'm not convinced Meaker will be perfect for one-dayers, but at least he has pace. But I might call for Chris Wood, who has been a very consistent, if criminally undersung, young left-arm seamer in Hampshire's successful T20 sides. He's a good death bowler, gives us the left-armer and is much better with the new ball than Dernbach. Its hard to tell if he's international standard but he's worth a go.

Then two spinners. Swann is one, and then who is the other? To stop Broad having to bat 7, you might find yourself having gone round the circle and coming back to Patel. Certainly I wouldn't dismiss him as a bowling option. But I think that Tredwell and Rafiq in particular are better. I was a bit disappointed that Rafiq, who bowled very well for Yorks in T20 last year, and who also bats a bit (probably 8 in my side, ahead of Swann) only played in 1 match on the EPP tour and didn't do much. I think he could have something to offer to the England T20 team. Briggs is an option if you want a left-arm spinner, and he's been excellent in T20 in county cricket. But I'm not sure he does enough with the ball to be first pick in Asia in particular - at international level the batsmen like the look of him. And I'd raise the question that, if Briggs doesn't bat and isn't a great fielder, then why not Monty? Of the other spinners in the EPP, Borthwick has had a go but I'm not quite sure about him, whilst Kerrigan has primarily played FC thus far.

So, my T20 XI would be:

1. Hales
2. Pietersen
3. Wright
4. Morgan
5. Bairstow
6. Buttler (wk)
7. Broad
8. Swann
9. Rafiq
10. Wood
11. Finn

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Post by JDizzle Fri 21 Dec - 12:01

Just a note on Buttler, it has always been my impression that when I watch Somerset when Buttler and Kieswetter are both playing that Kieswetter keeps wicket not because he is a vastly better keeper than Jos, but because Jos is a vastly better outfielder than him. I'm no expect on keeping, and Kies may well be better than Buttler behind the stumps but it's certainly not a massive gap in quality and ironically Jos's natural ability in the outfield stops him from keeping a lot more.

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Post by JDizzle Fri 21 Dec - 12:09

As for Lumb, he deserved his run in the side as he had the experience of winning the T20 in '09 when we had a very inexperienced batting line up before this last WC, and he had been in decent form over the summer but he is certainly behind KP and Hales in the opener berth now.

Whilst I don't see Wood as ever being able to make the grade as an international bowler right now (I just don't think he has the cutting edge on his bowling that is needed for T20 cricket, or the wily nature of how to figure out a batsman at this stage of his career) I wouldn't complain if he was given a chance, but I really like Rafiq. A clever little bowler and he always looks like he should score more runs when I see him play than his stats suggest he does, and add in he is another exceptional athlete to go with Buttler, Bairstow, Morgan and Wright (even Hales has a great pair of hands, even if he does look slightly ungainly now and again) and that definitely counts in his favour in T20's.

Hales
KP
Wright
Morgan
Bairstow, seen as Taylor is never going to get a go raspberry
Buttler (wk)
Rafiq
Broad
Swann
Finn
Plus another seamer, maybe Woakes as he could get away with bowling out mainly with the new ball with Broad and Finn doing the death stuff and he would add length to the batting.

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Post by Gregers Fri 21 Dec - 12:11

Why isn't Prior considered for T20? He (along with Wright and Nash, another who should be near the squad) have been Sussex's stand out batsmen over the past few t20 seasons.

Agree on Wood though, great T20 bowler.

1) Hales
2) Pieterson
3) Wright/Nash
4) Prior (wk)
5) Morgan
6) Buttler
7) Broad (c)
8) Swann
9) Briggs/Woakes (If Woakes plays then him at 7 with Broad and Swann moving down 1)
10) Wood
11) Finn

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Post by Shelsey93 Fri 21 Dec - 12:19

Gregers, I would not doubt that Prior could be a fantastic asset for the T20 side (at 5) and for the ODI side (at 6). However, the stats show that when he played in the formats he was worse than Kieswetter has been, and there are reasonable doubts about how he adapts his technique to the one-day game. Meanwhile, I think they might have got to a stage where they realise that not playing ODIs might help his Test Match longevity. Certainly, were he to play all formats he would need a lot of rests, and that would be more disruptive if it were the 'keeper.

I advocated Nash as a wild-card pick before the World T20. However, at this stage I think the chance to pick him may have passed. Whilst he's been consistently good in all forms of the game for Sussex, he hasn't produced the knockout season to seriously challenge for the vacant Test openers spot or really for a T20 place.


Last edited by Shelsey93 on Fri 21 Dec - 12:25; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Stella Fri 21 Dec - 12:22

Wright
Hales
Pietersen
Patel
Morgan
Bairstow
Buttler
Broad
Swann
Finn
Dernbach
Stella
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Post by Gregers Fri 21 Dec - 12:26

Shelsey93 wrote:Gregers, I would not doubt that Prior could be a fantastic asset for the T20 side (at 5) and for the ODI side (at 6). However, the stats show that when he played in the formats he worse than Kieswetter has been. Meanwhile, I think they might have got to a stage where they realise that not playing ODIs might help his Test Match longevity. Certainly, were he to play all formats he would need a lot of rests, and that would be more disruptive if it were the 'keeper.

I advocated Nash as a wild-card pick before the World T20. However, at this stage I think the chance to pick him may have passed. Whilst he's been consistently good in all forms of the game for Sussex, he hasn't produced the knockout season to seriously challenge for the vacant Test openers spot or really for a T20 place.

Is constantly good worse than one or two sensational knocks? Personally I'd like to see Nashdog given a go even if it was just a test. He can't do worse than Lumb! Prior for me should be at 3 or 4 in T20s (as he is for Sussex) as he is so destructive against all types of bowling. I didn't realize his stats were so bad compared to Craigs, although presumably the keeper stats are in Priors favour?


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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 21 Dec - 12:50

Prior unfortunately isn't a good batsman in limited overs at international level. England have tried him pretty much everywhere in the batting order, and it just hasn't worked. I think it's mainly because his scoring areas are somewhat limited (he doesn't hit well down the ground for instance). I don't see what's changed in Prior's game since the 2011 WC that makes him a better pick now than he was then.

He scores at County level because the bowling is much less consistent than at international level, so he gets plenty to feed off. Kieswetter is an inferior batsman, but has more scoring options, and hence will be more suited to limited overs.

Ballance is an interesting name to throw out there. Watched a bit of him in the CL and got the impression that his main scoring shot is the big hit over mid-wicket, so feel sides could work him out pretty quickly.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 21 Dec - 12:53

Prior didnt even play as keep in internationals to begin with, but his glovework has improved dramaticaly since he first played for England

The debate will always rage, but the Flowerpowers have their reasons for keeping him out.

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Post by msp83 Fri 21 Dec - 14:15

Isn't Ballance playing his winter cricket in his home land? Now then they are back to test cricket, won't be surprised if he's offered an opportunity to play test cricket. I don't see him playing tests for England. No idea about the contractual regulations though. Would like to see him play for Zimbabwe. He's already in the EPP. Hope Zimbabwe would select him for the national side at the earliest available opportunity.

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Post by Shelsey93 Fri 21 Dec - 14:33

I'm pretty certain if he had aspirations to play for Zimbabwe he would have by now - he's 23 and his FC average of 51.21 (albeit boosted by playing Zim domestic cricket) would make him comfortably their second best player, after Brendan Taylor.

He hasn't played any Zim domestic this year, so it may be that he's now focusing on getting into the England team.

Logically he would start in one-day cricket, but with his FC record its not inconceivable that he could make it in Tests.

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Post by msp83 Fri 21 Dec - 14:46

I'll be very disappointed if Ballance is lost to Zimbabwe cricket. They are making a come back to international cricket and the ZC should do everything possible to make best use of all available tallent. The ICC should help them in this, as they can't even match the riches offered by county cricket.

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Post by ShankyCricket Fri 21 Dec - 19:40

Shelsey93 wrote:I agree with most that Lumb doesn't look up to it. Its telling that Trescothick said on commentary that in county cricket he has a known weakness against off-spin. In T20Is that's a pretty major concern with Ashwin, Ajmal and others floating around to take the new ball against him. Given how short T20s are his innings was potentially pretty significant: turn 1 off 10 into 15 off 10 and it makes a big difference to the score. I know Lumb had success in 2010, but he's not in that sort of form now. I'd like some class at the top of the order, which should come from KP when he's not resting. I think Bell would be good in that role too. But for a variety of reasons I don't want Cook playing T20. Firstly, I'm not sure he quite has the shots to do more than rotate the strike and deal with the bad balls. Secondly, he's captain in the other two formats and doing that, and opening the batting is mentally draining: he needs a rest at some point and T20s are a good opportunity for that. I don't see the point in disrupting that just to test whether he can cut it in T20.

I'm quite happy with Hales and Wright in T20. I think Hales might ultimately end up being a frustrating player, but right now he looks pretty good. Wright is playing good T20 and hits the ball cleaner than most in the world - I don't see a role for him in the ODI squad, but he's doing a job in this format. Then we obviously have Morgan 4.

The keeping issue is interesting. I'm not sure I quite agree with MFC that Buttler not being first choice at Somerset necessarily means he's a worse 'keeper than Kieswetter. Kieswetter came first and did fine, and with him being in the England reckoning, it doesn't make sense to break with the status quo. But whenever I've seen Buttler keep he's done well. Bairstow has been managed a bit differently: as soon as he got in the team pretty much, Yorkshire were keen to give him the gloves (perhaps because they felt Brophy didn't earn a place with the bat; perhaps because they thought Bairstow's England chances would be boosted if he kept). For me, Buttler is a tremendous player. I think he has the potential to develop into a fine number 6. Some of his innings at domestic level, including against some pretty good attacks, have been world class. With how few T20Is they play, a player in that position is always likely to take a while to establish himself. But he's now twice shown what he can do.

I'd have Bairstow at 5 ahead of Patel usually. Given that Patel played a good knock in the last WT20 match and Bairstow's woes against spin in one-day cricket, it made sense to play Patel yesterday. But under normal circumstances I'm not sure Patel's good enough to be a member of our top six - he's not really a power player and faces a lot of dot balls. Just to throw another name in who I think is a cracking T20 player and is now England qualified, Gary Ballance could challenge his Yorkshire teammate.

Then with that top 6 we need 5 bowlers, with Wright and KP as cover. I think Bresnan may have run his race for now. I've been a big fan of his generally, but he just hasn't quite looked right since the elbow injury, even if he's got close a couple of times. Certainly I wouldn't take him in the Test squad to NZ. I'm a bit more confused about what to do in one-day cricket, as he balances things up pretty well by batting 7.

My 3 seamers are ideally Finn, Broad and, depending on conditions, Meaker or Wood. I think Finn and Broad are nailed on in this format. I think Dernbach has something to offer with his variations at the death (even Malinga goes round the park at the end from time to time), but his normal bowling is well below par. Thus, I'd like him to spend some more time developing his bowling with Surrey. I'm not convinced Meaker will be perfect for one-dayers, but at least he has pace. But I might call for Chris Wood, who has been a very consistent, if criminally undersung, young left-arm seamer in Hampshire's successful T20 sides. He's a good death bowler, gives us the left-armer and is much better with the new ball than Dernbach. Its hard to tell if he's international standard but he's worth a go.

Then two spinners. Swann is one, and then who is the other? To stop Broad having to bat 7, you might find yourself having gone round the circle and coming back to Patel. Certainly I wouldn't dismiss him as a bowling option. But I think that Tredwell and Rafiq in particular are better. I was a bit disappointed that Rafiq, who bowled very well for Yorks in T20 last year, and who also bats a bit (probably 8 in my side, ahead of Swann) only played in 1 match on the EPP tour and didn't do much. I think he could have something to offer to the England T20 team. Briggs is an option if you want a left-arm spinner, and he's been excellent in T20 in county cricket. But I'm not sure he does enough with the ball to be first pick in Asia in particular - at international level the batsmen like the look of him. And I'd raise the question that, if Briggs doesn't bat and isn't a great fielder, then why not Monty? Of the other spinners in the EPP, Borthwick has had a go but I'm not quite sure about him, whilst Kerrigan has primarily played FC thus far.

So, my T20 XI would be:

1. Hales
2. Pietersen
3. Wright
4. Morgan
5. Bairstow
6. Buttler (wk)
7. Broad
8. Swann
9. Rafiq
10. Wood
11. Finn
Agree with that team except Meaker or Topley for Wood (whom I don't know a lot about) and Patel for Bairstow (given that the next 2 World T20s are in Asia. Seriously, why would have Bairstow in Asia? He has looked absolutely clueless at every sight of spin in Asia and doesn't even have a great t20 record at domestic level. Ideally I'd like Shah in there but its not gonna happen. So Patel for now. Bairstow would have to show a hell of a lot of improvement against spin if he's to be considered).

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