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Saracens vs Edinburgh - Heineken Cup Round 6.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Jan 2013, 12:39 pm



Saracens vs Edinburgh


15 Chris Wyles
14 Chris Ashton
13 Owen Farrell
12 Brad Barritt
11 David Strettle
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Richard Wigglesworth
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 George Kruis
6 Kelly Brown
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 John Smit
17 Rhys Gill
18 Petrus du Plessis
19 Mouritz Botha
20 Nick Fenton-Wells
21 Neil de Kock
22 Joel Tomkins
23 Duncan Taylor

Unfortunately Saracens have carried on the foolish and ineffectual experiment of Farrell at 13. Goode misses out again due to injury. Good to see Hodgson,Vunipola and Kruis all come in though.


http://www.edinburghrugby.org/news/edinburgh-news/4636-one-change-for-sarries-cup-clash



Edinburgh Rugby team v Saracens, Heineken Cup Round 6
Vicarage Road, Sunday 20 January (KO 12.45pm)

15 Greig Tonks

14 Dougie Fife
13 Ben Cairns
12 Matt Scott
11 Tim Visser



10 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN

9 Richie Rees



1 Robin Hislop
2 Steven Lawrie

3 Willem Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Sean Cox
6 Stuart McInally
7 Dimitri Basilaia
8 Netani Talei

Substitutes
16 Andy Titterrell
17 Alex Allan
18 Geoff Cross
19 David Denton
20 Roddy Grant
21 Piers Francis

22 Ben Atiga
23 Lee Jones

Edinburgh have made one change to their team and bizarrely Denton is on the bench.


Thoughts?





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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:17 pm

It's a good selection from Bradley. Most importantly continuity from last week, but also suggests that he hasn't bowed to any pressure from the SRU to play Scots players in certain positions.

I'd have included Denton ahead of McInally personally, but happy for Denton to come on as an impact sub. Talei was sorely in need of a game, he's barely featured this season, so hopefully he'll bring some anger and frustration to the party. When on form he's an excellent carrier and offloader.

Based on the Murrayfield game, I see nothing other than a comprehensive Sarries win. Would be nice if we could score some points this time!

Some interesting match-ups as well from a Calcutta Cup perspective:

Visser vs Ashton

Scott vs Barritt

Laidlaw vs Farrell (if Farrell gets moved to 10 at any stage)

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:30 pm

FES I agree.

I'll be generous you can have 3 tries if we score 7.

How does that sound?

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:33 pm

beshocked wrote:FES I agree.

I'll be generous you can have 3 tries if we score 7.

How does that sound?
Arrogant Laugh

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Post by RDW Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:36 pm

Wow - the first time all season that Bradley has gone for continuity. I'd be happy with respectibility and a few tries. Sarries just need to win the game as far as I know so can't see them going for an all out attacking game, more capitalise on our indiscipline (and we lost a lot of penalties last week - rightly or wrongly)

Strange call to drop Denton to the bench but Talei will be chomping at the bit and Denton is about to have a brutal few months, so no harm in giving him 20 mins to keep him match fit but leave him on the bench.

Gonna go for Sarries 25 Edinburgh 18 - Edinbrugh getting their first point of the HK!

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:39 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Wow - the first time all season that Bradley has gone for continuity. I'd be happy with respectibility and a few tries. Sarries just need to win the game as far as I know so can't see them going for an all out attacking game, more capitalise on our indiscipline (and we lost a lot of penalties last week - rightly or wrongly)

Strange call to drop Denton to the bench but Talei will be chomping at the bit and Denton is about to have a brutal few months, so no harm in giving him 20 mins to keep him match fit but leave him on the bench.

Gonna go for Sarries 25 Edinburgh 18 - Edinbrugh getting their first point of the HK!
They need a BP to be in with a shout of a home QF unless Ulster lose.

However they are a team that can score 37 points with only 1 Try.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:39 pm

The key for us will be not injuring David Strettle. I want him on the wing at Twickenham - he scores ever fewer tries than Sean Lamont!!

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Post by RDW Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:43 pm

I'm impressed Strettle is playing - did he not go off with a serious looking injury last week?

Good point Jenifer - did Farrell not kick 25 points or something? Incredible. I think it's fair to say we need to be disciplined!

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Post by Geordie Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:44 pm

Ah why on earth are they playing Farrell at 13!!!!???

On the plus side...Kruis is starting at lock...hes one i rate very highly...be interesting to see how he goes...if he can follow up that performance v Munster...

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:51 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm impressed Strettle is playing - did he not go off with a serious looking injury last week?

Good point Jenifer - did Farrell not kick 25 points or something? Incredible. I think it's fair to say we need to be disciplined!
They were all drop goals. The biased "French" ref wouldn't give a penalty against Racing. Laugh

Actually 37 minus 5 is 32 points. The lad's a fockin serious kicker. Good tackler too and very tough for his age.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:54 pm

He's also not a 13, so a good thing that Sarries keep using him there. I'll bet Lancaster is delighted.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:57 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Wow - the first time all season that Bradley has gone for continuity. I'd be happy with respectibility and a few tries. Sarries just need to win the game as far as I know so can't see them going for an all out attacking game, more capitalise on our indiscipline (and we lost a lot of penalties last week - rightly or wrongly)

Strange call to drop Denton to the bench but Talei will be chomping at the bit and Denton is about to have a brutal few months, so no harm in giving him 20 mins to keep him match fit but leave him on the bench.

Gonna go for Sarries 25 Edinburgh 18 - Edinbrugh getting their first point of the HK!
They need a BP to be in with a shout of a home QF unless Ulster lose.

However they are a team that can score 37 points with only 1 Try.

We of course beat Edinburgh 45-0 in the away fixture with 5 tries so are well capable of scoring tries.

Saracens focused on punishing Racing Metro's errors. When you have such a strong side at the breakdown and an excellent goal kicker then why not kick the points on offer?

Saracens have the advantage that they are playing their game after the Leicester vs Toulouse match and Castres vs Ulster match so will know what they need to get a home quarter final.

If Ulster get a try bonus point win then the home quarter final is gone anyway.


Geordiefalcon I don't know why Farrell Jr is at 13. I haven't got a satisfactory justification.

Yes I am pleased Kruis is there. Younger,more athletic etc than Botha.

RDW Scotland he got knocked unconscious but after the game he was allegedly up and about.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 18 Jan 2013, 1:59 pm

Why is Laidlaw at 10? If Francis isn't good enough, why was he given a contract? Scotland need Laidlaw at 9 Headscratch

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Post by RDW Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:00 pm

beschocked - I'm not saying it's a bad thing to play tight and go for penalties! I was more meaning that a win is the bare minimum Sarries need so they will secure that first before chasing a BP.

True that you scored 5 tries against us but lets be honest - we were so bad at that stage of the season, and played so horrifically badly in that game, that Carlisle's under 10s girls football team could probably have beaten us!

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:00 pm

Leicester vs Toulouse is the last game of the weekend lad.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:06 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Leicester vs Toulouse is the last game of the weekend lad.

Oh $%^& you are right.

Try bonus needed then.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:10 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:beschocked - I'm not saying it's a bad thing to play tight and go for penalties! I was more meaning that a win is the bare minimum Sarries need so they will secure that first before chasing a BP.

True that you scored 5 tries against us but lets be honest - we were so bad at that stage of the season, and played so horrifically badly in that game, that Carlisle's under 10s girls football team could probably have beaten us!

Let's be honest you've hardly been on fire this season!

Yes Saracens need a win bare minimum but going away to RavenHill but would be very difficult if indeed we do win.

Hodgson at fly half shows an intention to be more attacking. In the game at Murrayfield Saracens were quite conservative. Only really going for the try bonus when 19-0 up. Need to start that process earlier on.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:12 pm

beshocked wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:beschocked - I'm not saying it's a bad thing to play tight and go for penalties! I was more meaning that a win is the bare minimum Sarries need so they will secure that first before chasing a BP.

True that you scored 5 tries against us but lets be honest - we were so bad at that stage of the season, and played so horrifically badly in that game, that Carlisle's under 10s girls football team could probably have beaten us!

Let's be honest you've hardly been on fire this season!

Yes Saracens need a win bare minimum but going away to RavenHill but would be very difficult if indeed we do win.

Hodgson at fly half shows an intention to be more attacking. In the game at Murrayfield Saracens were quite conservative. Only really going for the try bonus when 19-0 up. Need to start that process earlier on.
Saracens in "being conservative" shocker! Call the daily mail.

(Sorry. Couldn't resist Laugh )

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Post by RDW Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:16 pm

beshocked wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:beschocked - I'm not saying it's a bad thing to play tight and go for penalties! I was more meaning that a win is the bare minimum Sarries need so they will secure that first before chasing a BP.

True that you scored 5 tries against us but lets be honest - we were so bad at that stage of the season, and played so horrifically badly in that game, that Carlisle's under 10s girls football team could probably have beaten us!

Let's be honest you've hardly been on fire this season!

Yes Saracens need a win bare minimum but going away to RavenHill but would be very difficult if indeed we do win.

Hodgson at fly half shows an intention to be more attacking. In the game at Murrayfield Saracens were quite conservative. Only really going for the try bonus when 19-0 up. Need to start that process earlier on.

Not denying that or claiming anything to the contrary!

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:22 pm

Still got the 5 tries in that circumstance.

Weather could also have an impact.



The permutations are interesting:

Ulster on 19 points with 12 tries - Castres away

Saracens on 18 points with 10 tries - Edinburgh home

Toulouse on 18 points with 14 tries - Leicester away

Basically if Ulster win and get try bonus - home quarter final for them.
If both Ulster and Toulouse lose then Sarries just need a win
If Ulster wins but only gets 1 try then Saracens can overhaul them with a try bonus win for a home quarter final.

Toulouse can get a home quarter final if they get a try bonus and Ulster doesn't.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:23 pm

beshocked wrote:Hodgson at fly half shows an intention to be more attacking. In the game at Murrayfield Saracens were quite conservative. Only really going for the try bonus when 19-0 up. Need to start that process earlier on.

I agree with that. Munster made the mistake last weekend of leaving it too late to go for the 4 tries, and ended up with too much to do. You should also factor in that Edinburgh in the last month or so have finished games strongly, so you don't want to be needing two tries with 10 minutes to go. When the game is lost and there's nothing to play for, Edinburgh start to play. Just be warned. We usually sleep through the first 40 though, so I'd go for the jugular early doors, and try and go in with at least two tries at half time.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:27 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
beshocked wrote:Hodgson at fly half shows an intention to be more attacking. In the game at Murrayfield Saracens were quite conservative. Only really going for the try bonus when 19-0 up. Need to start that process earlier on.

I agree with that. Munster made the mistake last weekend of leaving it too late to go for the 4 tries, and ended up with too much to do. You should also factor in that Edinburgh in the last month or so have finished games strongly, so you don't want to be needing two tries with 10 minutes to go. When the game is lost and there's nothing to play for, Edinburgh start to play. Just be warned. We usually sleep through the first 40 though, so I'd go for the jugular early doors, and try and go in with at least two tries at half time.

Yes I hope we can do that. Certainly after last match vs Racing Metro I am sure the players will want to start stronger.

What's your fitness like?

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:31 pm

Fitness appears to be very good actually, one of the very few positives. We seem to be finishing matches strongly these days and tend to come out on top when there are long passages of play.

Where we've been beyond hopeless is game management. Our lineout is a total shambles so I expect Borthwick to have a field day, and if we get drawn into aerial ping pong you can rest assured that we'll be the ones to blink and either knock-on under the high ball, or slice a kick directly sideways into touch.

Watch out for another Edinburgh innovation, and that's the uncontested restart. It's when we manage to locate the opposition player with the biggest boot on him, kick the ball long to him, afford him all the time in the world and allow him to punt the ball back with interest into our half. Did I mention our lineout was a shambles....

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Post by RDW Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:34 pm

FES - our lineout isn't that bad, at least not until we are in the opponents 22 with an attacking platform. For my thoughts on that see previous comment on an under 10s girls football team...

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:38 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Fitness appears to be very good actually, one of the very few positives. We seem to be finishing matches strongly these days and tend to come out on top when there are long passages of play.

Where we've been beyond hopeless is game management. Our lineout is a total shambles so I expect Borthwick to have a field day, and if we get drawn into aerial ping pong you can rest assured that we'll be the ones to blink and either knock-on under the high ball, or slice a kick directly sideways into touch.

Watch out for another Edinburgh innovation, and that's the uncontested restart. It's when we manage to locate the opposition player with the biggest boot on him, kick the ball long to him, afford him all the time in the world and allow him to punt the ball back with interest into our half. Did I mention our lineout was a shambles....

Already seen that before. Borthwick loved your lineout at Murrayfield. You need to play your way not ours. At Murrayfield you danced to the Saracens tune. You kicked the ball to us, we kicked the ball back even further until you dropped it.

The worrying thing is that Matt Stevens is actually making the scrum quite solid as well!

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:40 pm

The best side Bradley has picked for a while.

not convinced with chunk though, he isn't getting any better, fitter or younger with age and his once formidable reputation at the scrum has vanished over the last few games so releived to see the youngsters getting a chance.

As for the Sarries game, that was one of the worst performances I have ever seen from Edinburgh. Anything upon that last game would be a huge improvement.



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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:40 pm

I suppose that's true. If the lineout is in a pretty neutral place, we tend to be able to get it to Cox. At least that's been the case since Ross Ford got injured.

I do worry about Borthwick though, an excellent lineout operator at this level.

I also worry about Hislop against Stevens.

I worry about everything to do with Edinburgh basically.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:43 pm

Fair enough FES.

England fans deride Borthwick and Stevens but they are doing the business at club level.

I can't say I know about Cox or Hislop. Any good?

Ruggerradge are you pleased by Denton missing out or not?

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Post by RDW Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:45 pm

Hislop is a young loosehead (21 or so) who looks promising, but is a baby for a prop.

Cox has been one of our most consistent players the last couple of years. He was also the one booted in the arse by O’Gara last week! Not huge for a lock but good in the air and big work rate.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 18 Jan 2013, 2:49 pm

beshocked wrote:Fair enough FES.

England fans deride Borthwick and Stevens but they are doing the business at club level.

I can't say I know about Cox or Hislop. Any good?

Ruggerradge are you pleased by Denton missing out or not?

I don't know yet! McInally and Denton are completely differant No.8s. or Blind sides or wherever Bradley decides to play them. I can't really complain about Denton being on the bench since I rate Talei as one of our best players.

I'm not 100% sure if McInally will be effective at 6 though. He doesn't relish the contact the way Denton does. McInally tends use the top 2 inches very well and his speed to beat defenders rather than route 1 rugby.

Perhaps his style of play will better suit the Sarries style by negating their physicallity. Dunno tbh.

As for Cox he has been the corner stone for the Edinburgh pack for the last 2 seasons IMO. He runs a good lineout, he is also one of the only abrasive locks we have. Very happy with what cox brings to the table.

Hislop is a youngster and has a lot to learn but has improved his scrummaging a lot this season.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 3:05 pm

Agree with my esteemed fellow Edinburgh fans on Cox. He brings a bit of "nasty" to the Edinburgh pack, and plays with passion. He carries hard and makes a decent fist of calling the lineout (it's not his fault that Ford can't throw).

Hislop is a kid. He isn't nearly big enough or powerful enough yet, and has a lot of developing to do. In the loose he works hard, and he seems to be a keen learner. We'll know how good he is in about 5 years time. Stevens should be able to get the upper hand.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 18 Jan 2013, 3:07 pm

I just hope they give Hislop a chance. Noone at Edinburgh seemed to give Grant a chance and now he is one of the few players in the Scotland setup that we can't be without.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 3:11 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I just hope they give Hislop a chance. Noone at Edinburgh seemed to give Grant a chance and now he is one of the few players in the Scotland setup that we can't be without.

Agreed. Hopefully Edinburgh have learnt some lessons with Grant. Props need time to mature, in fact forwards generally. Grant, Kellock and Strokosch are all players who left Edinburgh only to find their stock rise in due course. Yet players like Marcus Di Rollo and Simon Webster seemed to be indispensable.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 18 Jan 2013, 3:13 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I just hope they give Hislop a chance. Noone at Edinburgh seemed to give Grant a chance and now he is one of the few players in the Scotland setup that we can't be without.

Agreed. Hopefully Edinburgh have learnt some lessons with Grant. Props need time to mature, in fact forwards generally. Grant, Kellock and Strokosch are all players who left Edinburgh only to find their stock rise in due course. Yet players like Marcus Di Rollo and Simon Webster seemed to be indispensable.

picard

It just shows how guff we were when they got Scotland caps. Now we have much better players for Edinburgh and Scotland.
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Post by RDW Fri 18 Jan 2013, 3:15 pm

Harsh on Webster - he did well for Scotland and was frequently one of the few attacking threats.

Di Rollo on the other hand..

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 3:23 pm

Probably is harsh, but I don't think we have a knack of hanging on too long to dead wood (perhaps David Callum is a better example), and offloading decent players.


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Post by RDW Fri 18 Jan 2013, 3:35 pm

One example in the current squad is Steven Turnbull. I’m pretty sure he signed a 2 year deal recently and for the life of me have no idea why! He is more injury prone than Stephen Ferris and could only really be classed as a squad player at best. I only suspect that he signed a contract extension before the VDV deal came through. Can’t think why they would give him a two year deal if they knew VDV was coming.

Going off topic but as far as I am aware Cairnsy and Talei’s contracts are up this year. I’d like them both to stay, and I hope Cairnsy will be offered a new contract after his injury nightmare because he looks like he’s still got it.

Can see Talei moving on though.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 3:54 pm

I could live with Talei moving on if it freed up some wages. He's been disappointing this season and Denton is now firmly established as our top number 8 (much prefer him at 8 than at 6). I think Basilia should focus on making the 6 jersey his. I can see him becoming very useful indeed in that jersey.

If Talei left, I'd quite like us in the market for Mitch Eadie at Bristol. Whilst most were salivating over Mark Bennett's missed tackles at the JWC, I thought the real stars were James Farndale and Mitch Eadie, and I'd like them both prominent at Edinburgh next season.

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Post by RDW Fri 18 Jan 2013, 4:01 pm

Good shout on Eadie, although I see him as a similar player to McInally – a good ‘rugby’ player but just not big enough to make the step up to a top class player.

If Talei can start playing for us like he did last season I think he will be a big miss. On form a backrow of

6 Denton
7 Rennie
8 Talei

Was excellent for us last year and is something to build the team around.

As I have said on here before though the inside scoop is that Talei is a very lazy trainer. He’d much rather be bench pressing than working hard on the training field, which you can tell by his massive upper body but also his up and down form of late!

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 4:05 pm

That worked last season, but Denton's best stuff is at 8. I don't think he's in the game enough with ball in hand from 6. His covering back in the last couple of games has been outstanding.

If Talei were to return to last season's form I'd be happy, but this season he's been poor, and in Eadie there's a young Scots qualified player who we could develop.

I hear what you say about his size, but I like him as a footballer. He's got that right place right time quality, and he reads the game well. I don't think having both him and McInally around the squad is a problem.

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Post by tigertattie Fri 18 Jan 2013, 4:11 pm

What odds would I get on Sarries winning by 15+ points?

Surely thats a sure bet if ever there was one??????????
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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Jan 2013, 5:23 pm

Bookies have probably stopped taking bets on that scenario!

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Post by Artful_Dodger Fri 18 Jan 2013, 5:25 pm

Saracens to win by 13 or more going at 2/5 on PaddyPower, I wouldn't bother (Y)

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Post by Janecory Sat 19 Jan 2013, 10:12 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Why is Laidlaw at 10? If Francis isn't good enough, why was he given a contract? Scotland need Laidlaw at 9 Headscratch
Simply because he is second best 9, and first choice 10 at Edinburgh.

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Post by RDW Sat 19 Jan 2013, 1:38 pm

Denton has failed a late fitness test and is replaced on the bench by Perry parker.

hope it isn't too serious!

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Post by Imperialbigdave Sat 19 Jan 2013, 1:53 pm

well at least we'll actually have some lock cover for once. Why Parker wasnt starting this week is beyond me after the obvious lack of power in the engine room last week.
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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat 19 Jan 2013, 2:42 pm

Can Edinburgh start letting Leonard play at 10 please?
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Post by Imperialbigdave Sun 20 Jan 2013, 12:55 pm

Here we go, Edinburgh for the millionth time fail to deal with a maul properly. How has no one at the club ever questioned why our packs have been so powderpuff sh1te for the past 4 seasons?
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Post by Imperialbigdave Sun 20 Jan 2013, 12:59 pm

trebellbobaggins wrote:They just said a red card for one of the Racing team, so that's surely Munster through then?

safest bet of the day, after edinburgh rolling over and allowing themselves to get humiliated.
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Post by Imperialbigdave Sun 20 Jan 2013, 1:05 pm

looks like after abandoning the michael bradley aimless hoofing gameplan last week, theyve gone right back to it! I just dont understand these guys at times...
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