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England summer tour of Argentina

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Post by king_carlos Sun 24 Mar 2013, 6:16 pm

Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!


Last edited by king_carlos on Sun 02 Jun 2013, 5:22 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 24 Mar 2013, 6:33 pm

Hard to argue with that team. But with regard to the wings i would like too see Varndell get a chance to prove what he can do.

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Post by sickofwendy Sun 24 Mar 2013, 10:15 pm

Here's my 2 bobs worth.
We are playing 4 games on tour,I believe they are 2 tests and 2 dirtrackers.
I read the other day we are taking 40 players,based on that and discounting players I think will tour with the lions my 40 would be as follows
Foden,goode,daly
May,wade,varndell,sharples,
Joseph,tomkins eastmond
36,casson
Burns,flood,ford
Care,dickson,Simpson
Marler,vunipola,mullan
Wilson,Thomas,pdj
Youngs,paice,webber
Attwood,slater,launchbury /kruis
Kitchenor,lawes
Croft,Johnson,fearns/kruis/Clark
Kvesic,Fraser
Vunipola,crane


The locks and wings were biggest problem.Ashton to be rested,strettle will probably get a place if .sl is consistent.was tempted to pick haskell but he needs a rest so I put Johnson in for experience.I couldn't decide whether or not gatland will pick both so played safe.I really can't see garvey getting picked as he's playing 6 and not very well apparently.I could easily see .sl picking waldrom or Dowson in front of crane.
George lowe is a fine player but seems to have fallen down the pecking order.As for Allen and jth their out and Carson and eatmond who hopefully will cover12/13 come in.

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Post by Geordie Mon 25 Mar 2013, 9:52 am

hat's assuming Youngs, Cole, Parling, Wood, Croft, Robshaw, Youngs, Care, Farrell and Tuilagi will travel with the Lions - they're who I'd take anyway

Im not sure how Croft has been able to show any form to go on a lions tour. With so many 6's available he's not at the forefront...and personally i wouldnt even have him on the England (Argentina) tour.

Also...they will take Youngs or Care...not both. And too be honest on form...maybe even neither will go.

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Post by sirtidychris Mon 25 Mar 2013, 10:07 am

If they don't take youngs or care then they will be muppets, they are the perfect players for SH rugby.

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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Mar 2013, 10:14 am

I wouldn't pick Care to go on the Lions by the way he's been playing recently!

Hasn't shown any form at international level and getting run over by Mako Vunipola at club level doesn't exactly help.......

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Post by king_carlos Mon 25 Mar 2013, 12:35 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
hat's assuming Youngs, Cole, Parling, Wood, Croft, Robshaw, Youngs, Care, Farrell and Tuilagi will travel with the Lions - they're who I'd take anyway

Im not sure how Croft has been able to show any form to go on a lions tour. With so many 6's available he's not at the forefront...and personally i wouldnt even have him on the England (Argentina) tour.

Also...they will take Youngs or Care...not both. And too be honest on form...maybe even neither will go.

Croft I'd take as he offers something different. IMO there's little point of taking 3 blindsides if they all offer very similar things and with Ferris as good as out Wood, Lydiate and Brown are all very similar options. Croft offers a lot of pace, a high workrate and a great option to run the line-out which allows you to pick two brutes in the second row if you want. He offers options to the squad and even if he doesn't test will give the coaches a bit of variety if needed.

If it were a tour of SA or NZ I'd be hesitant to take Youngs or Care but on hard ground in Australia they are pretty perfectly suited to the series for me. Also with none of our options at 10 offering a big threat themselves both of Care and Youngs of an threat to the line at half-back. Phillips would be my other 9 - Laidlaw is very close behind but given his struggles in defence I just wouldn't want him covering Genia!

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Post by yappysnap Mon 25 Mar 2013, 1:37 pm

Depending upon who was taken by the Lions i'd look at a team of:

1.Vunipola- Massive carrier and a real brute
2.Youngs- Good at hitting rucks and adds dynamism
3.Wilson- Technical scrummager
4.Lawes- Tackler and lineout jumper
5.Garvey/Slater-Grunt in the tight five
6.Croft- Lineout leader and jumper
7.Fearns-All rounder
8.Vunipola-carrier
9.Care-Experienced player and pacey
10.Flood-Experienced player
11.Wade-Flyer
12.Twelvetrees-Supports Flood and a good tackler/carrier
13.Tomkins- Big unit with a good off load
14. May-Flyer
15. Brown- String puller and good defender

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 25 Mar 2013, 1:50 pm

With two midweek matches added to the tests (one in Venezuela i think) we may see a slightly larger party than otherwise expected. I still struggle to see Lancaster selecting Kearns over Kvesic and Fraser (and possibly wallace). Past precedent suggests Garvey is unlikely to go but I hope that botha, Palmer and possibly even Robson are all pensioned off.

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Post by Tiger/Chief Mon 25 Mar 2013, 2:12 pm

Beshocked I think you're being unfair on care! Vunipola with a run up would run through most scrum halves! The man is a beast and still only 22!

I want to see a pack with real "grunt" and some pace on the wings! Why not give Tom Varndell a chance to prove himself again? The coaches would get a month to look at and work with him and he's absolutely on fire for wasps probably playing better than Christian Wade who everyone's salivating over!!!

My team

Vunipola
Youngs
Corbesiero
Lawes
Attwood
Croft
Fraser
Vunipola
Care
Flood ( might tour though)
May
Twelvetrees
Daly
Varndell
Foden

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 25 Mar 2013, 2:23 pm

Pretty sure that rehab m,eans Corbs will not tour, and while he can cover tighthead, he is really a loosehead.

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Post by yappysnap Mon 25 Mar 2013, 3:51 pm

I'd have no problem with any of Kvesic, Fraser, Savage, Fearns or Wallace getting picked in the backrow. Only went with Fearns as he was taken on the summer tour last season and can fill multiple positions which Lancaster seems to like.

Varndell should get another shot, he looks hungrier then i've ever seen before and defencively is a million times better then he was. Still can't see the England selectors going for him though now that he's been in the bad books. I wonder if any other leagues all time top try scorer was completely ignored by their Int side?

Care for more did as much as he could against Vunipola, and tbh showed massive balls as one of the only Quins players to repeatedly put his body where it hurts against the massive Sarries forwards. He's probably the best at balancing attack and defence as a scrumhalf in the league.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:04 pm

I know that Fearns has been injured, but just feel that with Kvesic and Fraser training with the England squad during 6Ns that they are now ahead in the pecking order.

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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:44 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I know that Fearns has been injured, but just feel that with Kvesic and Fraser training with the England squad during 6Ns that they are now ahead in the pecking order.

Rightly so too. Fraser and Ksevic are two of the form 7s in England in my opinion.


True Tiger/Chief. Maybe I am being harsh on Care but I haven't been impressed by his recent form. I don't think he's done enough for a Lions slot.

He's been decent at club level for Quins this season, in particular against Leicester but just haven't seen much at international level.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:55 pm

All I'm asking is to see a couple of in-form wingers (playing on the wing, that is SL). And Morgan, if only to see whether he can actually survive a series.
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Post by doctor_grey Mon 25 Mar 2013, 9:24 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:All I'm asking is to see a couple of in-form wingers (playing on the wing, that is SL).
You are quite a radical, aren't you?

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 26 Mar 2013, 7:17 am

In some ways I am more interested to see what coaches travel.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 26 Mar 2013, 8:37 am

I guess it won't be from any teams in the top four. Don't mind too much as long as they're not from Sale!

It'll be what a forwards and a defence coach right?

Maybe this could be a chance to try a coach or two from a different league? Could be very useful to get a non-English/Aviva Prem look at the squad.

Or Dean Richards...just sayin

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Post by englandglory4ever Tue 26 Mar 2013, 8:59 am

"6.Croft- Lineout leader and jumper"

I can't tell you how irritating, annoying and just plain wrong-thinking this sort of statement is. It crops up time and time again.

No6s aren't picked in a team because they are good at lineouts FFS!

They have to be good at ball winning at the breakdown, destructive ball carrying and destructive tackling first and foremost and if they aren't good in those areas then they should not be selected. Lineout work is secondary for a No6.

If that's all Croft is good at then he should not be anywhere near the England squad IMO.

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Post by beshocked Tue 26 Mar 2013, 9:08 am

Yappysnap you say that but according to the daily mail the RFU are looking at Paul Gustard and Alex Sanderson which worries me.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2298195/England-Saracens-set-row-staff.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

No not Dean Richards. warning


englandglory4ever I agree with that. Unfortunately I didn't see much from Croft in the loss vs Wales to be particularly optimistic.

Which other 6s will there be in the England squad?

Haskell? Please not him. Johnson? Can do a job I suppose but is not the future.

Who else?

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 26 Mar 2013, 9:52 am

I would say that England can definitely afford to take an inexperienced squad, as I heard that most of Argentina's best players are in France and likely unavailable for the test series.

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Post by Geordie Tue 26 Mar 2013, 9:57 am

England 4 Glory...

Totally agree about Croft. I just think he's a luxury...OR if he plays we simply have to play an absolute monstrous beast of a second row to make up for it.
I guess its down to him or Wood for that 6 spot at the moment...and for me its not even a competition...Wood takes it at a canter.

It will be interesting however should Kvesic or Fraser stand out in Argentina. Could we see either of them take the 7 shirt with Robshaw switching to 6?

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Post by Geordie Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:12 am

Which Second Rows are we looking at taking?

Will either of Parling or Launchbury get a lions call? Parling has been quite impressive so may go, and Launchbury has been so consistant and just doesnt have a bad game.

So that would leave us with options such as :

Lawes, Kruis, Slater, Kitchener, Attwood, Garvey ( Laugh sorry that was for comedy value) Deacon.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:42 am

This is Lancaster, so the second rows selected will be Lawes, Botha, Palmer and Clark (who will also be covering 6, 7 Wing and FB)

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:44 am

As to tom Croft, I am more than happy for him to be left with Leicester. Personally I feel it would be a loss for England but there we go.

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Post by Geordie Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:55 am

Croft doesnt half split opinion mind LT doesnt he...

This is Lancaster, so the second rows selected will be Lawes, Botha, Palmer and Clark (who will also be covering 6, 7 Wing and FB).

I would cry if he really did take those 4

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Post by beshocked Tue 26 Mar 2013, 11:18 am

Botha can't get in the Saracens 23 at the moment so I think he'll struggle to get back in England contention.

Geordiefalcon Croft is indeed an interesting player. I find myself continuously changing my opinion of him. He's definitely not your traditional blindside flanker!

I agree Wood should start at 6 if he misses out on Lions.


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Post by yappysnap Tue 26 Mar 2013, 12:23 pm

I was thinking that with a second row of Lawes and Garvey/Slater you'd need another quality lineout jumper, this is where Croft comes in. He's also massively experienced at int level, a Lion and by the summer tour could have played in Euro and Prem semi's and finals a perfect older head for all the youth.

Obviously he can tackle and turn over well especially out wide, that goes without saying though I don't think I need to spell it out.

Also in my team Wood is away with the Lions and it's not like we don't have bulk in that pack with two Vunipola's, a fat lock and Fearns!

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Post by yappysnap Tue 26 Mar 2013, 12:23 pm

Beshocked,

I can't believe Sarries would let the RFU pinch those two off you, especially not after Farrelgate!

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Post by yappysnap Tue 26 Mar 2013, 12:26 pm

LondonTiger wrote:As to tom Croft, I am more than happy for him to be left with Leicester. Personally I feel it would be a loss for England but there we go.

I can't see how England could ignore one of their only young players with over 20 caps and a lions tour under his belt. It'd be like Wales ignoring Alun Wyn Jones, or Ireland ignoring Earls.

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Post by bluestonevedder Tue 26 Mar 2013, 12:27 pm

1. Vunipola/Marler
2. Tom Lindsay
3. Davey Wilson
4. Attwood
5. Kitchener
6. Croft (C)
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola

9,. Care
10. Burns
11. Wade
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph
14. May
15. Brown

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Post by bluestonevedder Tue 26 Mar 2013, 12:29 pm

Think that'd be my starting lineup for the Argentina tour...A few changes.

Maybe Garvey in the boiler room too. Youngs at hooker is also a possibility, but loved Lindsay performance off the bench last weekend.

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Post by Effervescing Elephant Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:16 pm

Rob Baxter and Paul Gustard to join Stuart Lancaster as the coaching team for summer tour.
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Post by bluestonevedder Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:25 pm

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Rob Baxter and Paul Gustard to join Stuart Lancaster as the coaching team for summer tour.

Wow, I like the choice of Baxter- he's done wonders at Exeter, and I think him and Lancaster could actually make a very good coaching duo.

Exeter play a lovely brand of rugby at times, so I;m excited to see what he can bring to England.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:29 pm

Chief

Congrats also to Paul Gustard

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Post by Effervescing Elephant Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:31 pm

Still no attack coach though...
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Post by bluestonevedder Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:38 pm

Well, I think Mike Catt will be going, but whether he fulfills the first part of his title, I don't know.

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:39 pm

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Still no attack coach though...

Why not mike Catt?

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Post by Effervescing Elephant Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:41 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Effervescing Elephant wrote:Still no attack coach though...

Why not mike Catt?

Yep, he's going. I stand by my previous statement though.
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Post by Geordie Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:46 pm

At least the defence will be rock solid with Mr Gustard coaching.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 26 Mar 2013, 6:51 pm

Does Baxter actually coach at Exeter? I thought he was the guy above all that who did all the boring stuff. He's DoR isn't he?

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Post by Tiger/Chief Tue 26 Mar 2013, 9:00 pm

Would now expect our stand out players to tour!!! Step forward Luke Arscott and Tom Johnson

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Post by Tiger/Chief Tue 26 Mar 2013, 9:02 pm

And YappySnapp Baxter is currently DOR and forwards coach at the chiefs, though they've just signed mark hunter from Eng u20 to be full time forwards coach as off next season

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England summer tour of Argentina Empty Re: England summer tour of Argentina

Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 27 Mar 2013, 6:14 am

yappysnap wrote:Does Baxter actually coach at Exeter? I thought he was the guy above all that who did all the boring stuff. He's DoR isn't he?
Not at all, yappy, Rob is very hands on at SP as Tiger/Chief suggests

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 27 Mar 2013, 6:59 am

bluestonevedder wrote:Think that'd be my starting lineup for the Argentina tour...A few changes.

Maybe Garvey in the boiler room too. Youngs at hooker is also a possibility, but loved Lindsay performance off the bench last weekend.

Yes it was awesome! I'd like to see some more of Eliot Daly on tour aswell. He would be a good bench option.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 27 Mar 2013, 8:49 am

Effervescing Elephant wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Effervescing Elephant wrote:Still no attack coach though...

Why not mike Catt?

Yep, he's going. I stand by my previous statement though.

With Farrell, Barritt and Tuilagi in midfield you blame the lack of creativity on the coach...????

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 27 Mar 2013, 10:57 am

I reckon Billy Twelvetrees is going to have to get a proper chance during the tour, hopefully not shoehorned into a centre partnership with Barritt (bet it happens). I would just like to see everybody playing their correct positions, a no. 8 playing at no.8, a winger actually on the wing! I am now coming around to the idea of Varndell on the wing too, I have resisted the idea in the past because of his poor defensive skills, but I am wondering if he could actually be any worse than Ashton in this area. Saying that, we have a number of very promising young wingers to choose from and I would be happy to see them get a go (Ashton and Brown it is then!). Hopefully Foden will be fit and on form again too, people seem to forget that he was one of our best players over the last couple of years, he is a better strike runner than either Brown or Goode. The need for a second play maker at fullback should be removed if Flood plays or we can get Burns and/or Twelvetrees starting.

I believe that against Wales part of the problem was that the back five of the scrum were all too tall and willowy, there wasn't enough carrying ballast to break the line. You either have Wood OR Croft in my opinion.

01. Mako Vunipola (Marler has had a long season because Quins rely on him more than Sarries rely on Mako. Corns should just have the summer off to get right)
02. Joe Gray (very much depends on if Youngs and Hartley tour with the Lions. I would definitely look to include Lindsay in the squad).
03. Davey Wilson (lack of options, would probably have PDJ, Henry Thomas and Kieran Brookes in the squad too.
04. Courtney Lawes (his line out work is improving, reckon someone like Robson will go as well though. Parling and Launchbury will be away with the Lions IMO)
05. Matt Garvey (although there are a number of options who are just as/ more likely)
06. Carl Fearns (I would happily have Croft, but I think he was thrown back into international rugby too soon and I would let him work his way back at a slower pace.)
07. Matt Kvesic (would happily see Fraser or Wallace get a go too.
08. Ben Morgan (If he is fit, Billy Vunipola, Jordan Crane or James Haskell if not).

09. Lee Dickson (reckon Youngs and Care will be with the Lions. Would take Dan Robson and Ben Spencer for experience too)
10. Freddie Burns (Farrell could be with the Lions. Would be happy for Flood to start too).

11. Jonny May
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Jon Joseph/ Matt Banahan (I know people will scratch their heads at Banners but he is playing well and could add go forward to the midfield).
14. Christian Wade
15. Ben Foden


Last edited by Cumbrian on Wed 27 Mar 2013, 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Cumbrian Wed 27 Mar 2013, 11:06 am

That should be Corbs not Corns, damn you iPad!
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Post by Effervescing Elephant Wed 27 Mar 2013, 11:07 am

Yes.
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Post by bluestonevedder Wed 27 Mar 2013, 11:23 am

Nice backline Cumbrian. Differs only slightly from mine, but makes you realise how potentially threatening England's backs could be in a few years.

Can't believe I forgot about Fearns in the backrow!!

I'd look at starting Lindsay to be honest. Gray doesn't impress me with ball in hand. I think he often goes missing against bigger opposition, when ideally you'd want your hooker being abrasive and carrying hard. Shame, because he's a good thrower, but he doesn't quite have the x factor for me.

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