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Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

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Post by red_stag Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:00 pm

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.
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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:14 pm

red_stag wrote:
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)


Most important one for me.

The tour (such as it it) should be heralded to the players involved as a punishing one. Not a holiday or a just-get-some-results one;- a punishing one in training and what is demanded of the players when they get onto the field. The coaches should be in barking and ordering mood, there should be no chat about it being an enjoyable camp to be in after the trials of Provincial duties are over. Ireland must be a tougher place to be than Provincial.

Prepare as if preparing to face a SH giant and play both games as if playing against SH top sides. Play hard and fast for 80 minutes...and work through the issues that seems to always stop Irish sides putting a sequence of high-intensity games together. The step-up needed must be appreciated by the new young hopefuls - they must perform in training and on gameday, and sustain a pressure they'd need to exert against a top 3 side rather than to jog through the processes needed to beat sub top 10 sides.


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Post by red_stag Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:15 pm

Agree with you Fly. Rest a guy like Ross and Murray claiming that fresh legs are needed on this gruelling tour.
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Post by Ozzy3213 Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:17 pm

Where do you see Dave McSharry in the pecking order at 12 Stag? Has impressed me every time I've watched him this season.
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Post by George Carlin Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:23 pm

I like that team Staggy.

Canada away from home won't be a walk in the park, incidentally. They're ranked 14th in the world at the moment (only just behind Fiji) in comparison to Ireland's 9th. They'll have a pair of Glasgow Warriors on the wings (Van Der Merwe and Paris) and they'll have O'Toole and Cudmore in the boiler room.

The team you mention will have enough to win and win well and this is the utility of these games. Nothing like getting the international side winning international games again. Can't be sniffy about that. It's one of the reasons why Scotland did the Australia and Pacific Islands tour and I cannot fathom for the life of me why the IRU thought that a tour like this last year was an inferior option to setting up three murderously difficult games against the best side in the world.
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Post by red_stag Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:26 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Where do you see Dave McSharry in the pecking order at 12 Stag? Has impressed me every time I've watched him this season.

He has impressed me too. I see him currently behind Luke Marshall and possibly Fergus McFadden. McFadden isn't playing 12 regularly but is well used to the position and also offers cover for wing and a goal kicking option.

I suspect that he would rank behind those two.
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Post by marty2086 Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:30 pm

I dont think Heaslip should go, give him time off drop him or just ignore him but maybe time to try something different at 8 maybe a chance to give Roger Wilson a go at 8 but Chris Henry is the best openside in Ireland and deserves a run at 7 and would be a natural leader in an inexperienced team

The half backs will probably be rotated Marmion deserves a chance and has probably been in better form than Marshall this season but Jackson needs game time and kicking practise but Madigan is deserving of his chance.

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Post by rodders Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:30 pm

Surely Paddy Wallace is ahead of McFadden? D'arcy is still first choice 12 too.
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Post by geoff998rugby Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:32 pm

I like the drift of the proposed team.

I would actually put Tuohy in front of McCarthy who I think has been blown up over and above his ability.

I would put McSharry behind Marshall but above McFadden.
McFadden needs to start playing 12 for Leinster first.

Take a few quality fringe players as well who play in a position of weakness for Ulster I suggest Henry fits that description.

Also take some promising kids like Olding at Ulster.

I am sure the other provinces cn come up with similar names who fit those descriptions e.g. I would like a young promising 13 on tour to back up Cave.

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Post by red_stag Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:34 pm

marty2086 wrote:Jackson needs game time and kicking practise

I know a sure fire way to do that. Take a dozen rugby balls and spend an hour each day doing kick after kick after kick.

Someone like Jonny Wilkinson wasnt born a great kicker. He practised religiously finding a routine he was happy with guinness
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Post by red_stag Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:35 pm

I didn't include Chris Henry as I don't know what his fitness will be like. Same with Richard Strauss. Didnt want to include them and then be told they wouldnt be fit.
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Post by marty2086 Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:41 pm

red_stag wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Jackson needs game time and kicking practise

I know a sure fire way to do that. Take a dozen rugby balls and spend an hour each day doing kick after kick after kick.

Someone like Jonny Wilkinson wasnt born a great kicker. He practised religiously finding a routine he was happy with guinness

Nothing beats kicking in a game though, his judgement is bad conditions are part of the problem doubt he'll face that in North America though

I didn't include Chris Henry as I don't know what his fitness will be like. Same with Richard Strauss. Didnt want to include them and then be told they wouldnt be fit..

Henrys could be back this weekend against Leinster so the summer shouldnt be a problem

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Post by red_stag Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:42 pm

If Henry is back then definitely include him. I think he is an excellent player.
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Post by rodders Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:43 pm

red_stag wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Jackson needs game time and kicking practise

I know a sure fire way to do that. Take a dozen rugby balls and spend an hour each day doing kick after kick after kick.

Someone like Jonny Wilkinson wasnt born a great kicker. He practised religiously finding a routine he was happy with guinness

Same with ROG he was pants until he was in his mid/late twenties. Eric ''radar boot' Elwood made a career out of missing kicks. Humphs wasn't even a great goal kicker either.... but hey keep all that to yourselves lest some people be deluded into thinking Jackson might just have the potential to be the best of the lot.


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Post by UlstermaninGlasgow Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:46 pm

I'd agree in the main with your team Stag, apart from maybe Ryan will tour as well, leaving us light a second row.

If Paulie doesn't tour then I'd expect D Ryan to go in his place, and in that case I'd much rather see someone like Tuohy or Stevenson get a shot ahead of Toner or O'Callaghan/O'Connell.

Realistically if POC isn't fit for the Lions he should get the summer off to recuperate and O'Callaghan is not one for the future. Similarly Toner can't call a lineout, while Dan Tuohy has been doing so at Ulster in Muller's absence so I'd have him in there ahead of Stevenson/Toner.

Agree with the back selection, Marshall (P) isn't a good starter for Ulster anyway so would be a poor choice, and as you say Marmion deserves a reward for his good form for Connacht. Madigan/Jackson is 50/50 with Madser slightly ahead at this point.

The biggest questions are who goes along as the backups?

Prop - Court, Hagan?, Buckley (D)?, Loughney?, Ross?
Hooker - Sherry, Herring?, Varley?, Harris-Wright?
Second Row - Tuohy, Stevenson, Toner?, Browne? Kearney?
Back Row - Henry, O'Mahoney, Murphy?, Coughlan?, Diack?
Scrum Half - Marshall, Murray? (Lions?), Heaney?, Boss? Reddan?
Out Half - Jackson, Keatley?, Hanrahan?
Centre - McFadden, Olding?, McSharry?, Griffen?, O'Malley?
Wing - Trimble, O'Halloran?, D. Kearney?, Allen?, Bowe? (Lions?), O'Dea?
FB - Kearney? (Lions?), Jones?, Nelson?, Andrew?

Bold are my definites
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Post by marty2086 Mon 25 Mar 2013, 4:54 pm

red_stag wrote:If Henry is back then definitely include him. I think he is an excellent player.

stag I couldnt agree more, start of last season I thought he may be on his way out he was a great worker but every time he tried to carry the ball he knocked on or would get pinged at the breakdown now hes really come into his own and a real asset at 7 and should maybe be a starter for Ireland on form and maybe SOB to 8 just to get Heaslip out of the team and give a bit more dynamism in the back line

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Post by The Great Aukster Mon 25 Mar 2013, 6:35 pm

Can't see Gatland leaving the Irish captain out of the Lions squad.

The team should be all about building for 2015. If players aren't going to be around then, they shouldn't go this summer. The squad should be no more than 30 strong to mirror the RWC guidelines, especially with only two games to play.
This is an opportunity for established players to meld with the cover players, so apart from Ross (who is a special case), I'd take every other "first choice" player available.
Much as I'd like to see Marmion (and PM on the bench), Murray should start as these are invaluable opportunities to get him playing with Jackson/Madigan. The more they play together the better the understanding.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Mar 2013, 6:59 pm

Not just 'playing with' but speeding up the processes between... This tour must have homework...it must be done with a view to working on player/coaching miscommunications - if any, and most of us say there are plenty.

So coaches must be finally clear about the game they want played and be determined in getting a clear gameplan across, one that doesn't collapse midway through a game. A plan and a few plan Bs to counter unexpected issues.

It can't be simply a tour of Trappatonian 'let's try this player with that one'. Let's not.
Let's try to tell players what's required and see if they can carry out instructions.

So yes, Murray with Jackson/Madigan..but not just to see how they go. Clear objectives for them to meet within the team (like all players) and sturdy words if they they are giving less than full commitment.

An example: if coaches don't want their 10 standing off so deep then tell him and then see how he carries out instructions. He slides back deep of his own accord during a game then stern words from coaches should root it out of the following game. And the same for all positions. Strong outline and then solid questions for players who refuse to listen.

We have to get past this stage where players keep saying it's them doing all the wrong things and the coaches saying they have all the right plans if they had all the right players. Someone is lying.. time to find out who.

A more demanding coaching staff must lay down the laws if they continue to say they believe in their patterns. Calling a spade a spade must be introduced.

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Post by Standulstermen Mon 25 Mar 2013, 7:12 pm

Really like that team Stag. I would make one change (probably not a popular one) but i would take out Ryan or mcCarthy and put henderson into the row. Our tight five is seriously lacking in mobility compared with other nations and the only solution i can see on the horizon is Henderson. If Tuohy gets back some form then great but at present i would go with henderson. Im not so certain we have a standout 6 yet to be capped.

Marmion, Madigan, Zebo, Marshall, Cave, Gilroy, Henshaw

is mouthwatering

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Post by B91212 Mon 25 Mar 2013, 7:21 pm

George Carlin wrote:Canada away from home won't be a walk in the park, incidentally. They're ranked 14th in the world at the moment (only just behind Fiji) in comparison to Ireland's 9th. They'll have a pair of Glasgow Warriors on the wings (Van Der Merwe and Paris) and they'll have O'Toole and Cudmore in the boiler room.
Cudmore generally doesn't bother unless its a world cup or something equally high profile so the Irish pack should make it through without any limbs missing. I could be wrong but he is not currently listing in the squad and only made himself available shortly before 2011 in NZ so I expect he will revert back to his self imposed exile. I'm not 100% sure but I think Van Der Merwe generally plays at 13 so he is more involved.

Tickets are currently on sale at $19 if anyone is thinking of 'popping' over to Toronto for the game!

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Post by Notch Mon 25 Mar 2013, 7:50 pm

There's two games so I'd really like to see a good degree of rotation- somewhere between 5 and 8 unforced changes.

You say the Ulster partnership of Marshall and Jackson is more likely than Marmion and Madigan, but I really want to see both start. Could also be looking at Tommy Bowe being available but assuming your list of Lions is accurate;

Team vs USA;

1. Kilcoyne
2. Cronin
3. Archer
4. McCarthy
5. Ryan
6. Henderson
7. O'Donnell
8. Heaslip (c)
9. Reddan
10. Madigan
11. Zebo
12. Marshall
13. Cave
14. Gilroy
15. Henshaw

16. Strauss 17. Court 18. Hagan 19. Tuohy 20. O'Mahony 21. Marshall 22. Jackson 23. Trimble

Team vs Canada

1. Court
2. Strauss
3. Hagan
4. Tuohy
5. Ryan
6. Henderson
7. O'Mahony
8. Heaslip (c)
9. Marshall
10. Jackson
11. Trimble
12. Marshall
13. Cave
14. Gilroy
15. Zebo

16. Cronin 17. Kilcoyne 18. Archer 19. McCarthy 20. O'Donnell 21. Reddan 22. Madigan 23. Henshaw

Basically we've got guys in the tight five, halfbacks and back three all pushing each other for places in the autumn.

And I quite liked the look of Zebo when he had to fill in at 15, so I'd like to see that again.
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Post by doctor_grey Mon 25 Mar 2013, 9:21 pm

I think if Zebo is healthy in time, you won't see him in an Ireland jumper this summer. He may (should) be with the Lions, in my opinion.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon 25 Mar 2013, 10:56 pm

I heard the wolfhounds are playing a tournament with SA 'A', Georgia and Uruguay. Is this true?

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Post by stevetynant Mon 25 Mar 2013, 11:51 pm

Can't believe you Irish guys are not looking at Copeland at the blues.every time I see this guy play he is the stand out player. Big and athletic given the right coaching he could be an Irish international for years to come. Get in quick before Wales come calling.

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Post by profitius Tue 26 Mar 2013, 1:10 am

I see no point in bring along the established internationals. I see it as an opportunity for them to have a well earned break.

I would fill the squad with young, up and coming players and players just outside the first team.

An example of a team I'd pick

1 McGrath/Kilcoyne/McAllister/Buckley
2 Sherry/Strauss
3 Archer/Fitypatrick/Moore/Hagan
4 Tuohy/Stevenson/ben Marshall
5 Henderson
6 Muldoon/Dom Ryan/O'Donnell
7 Faloon/Dougal
8 McKeon/Jordi Murphy

9 Heaney/Marshall/Cooney/Sheridan
10 Madigan/Jackson/Hanrahan
11 Conway/Allen
12 McSharry/Olding
13 Griffin/O'Malley
14 D Kearney/O'Dea/McFadden
15 Keatley/Henshaw


Thats just a rough example off the top of my head. The yanks won't care what team Ireland select so theres no issue with star names missing.

Ihave not seen enough of Copeland to judge but I wouldn't rule him out either.
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Post by George Carlin Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:33 am

B91212 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Canada away from home won't be a walk in the park, incidentally. They're ranked 14th in the world at the moment (only just behind Fiji) in comparison to Ireland's 9th. They'll have a pair of Glasgow Warriors on the wings (Van Der Merwe and Paris) and they'll have O'Toole and Cudmore in the boiler room.
Cudmore generally doesn't bother unless its a world cup or something equally high profile so the Irish pack should make it through without any limbs missing. I could be wrong but he is not currently listing in the squad and only made himself available shortly before 2011 in NZ so I expect he will revert back to his self imposed exile. I'm not 100% sure but I think Van Der Merwe generally plays at 13 so he is more involved.

Tickets are currently on sale at $19 if anyone is thinking of 'popping' over to Toronto for the game!
DTH usually plays 11 for Glasgow, although you're right, he's a good enough footballer to do a stint at 13.

Scored 8 again this season already despite having been injured - best news of the year when he re-signed for us again.
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Post by marty2086 Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:01 am

Who goes may well depend on whos in charge, if Kidney is still around we won't know what he'll do and if a new guys in charge they could well want to look at some of the more experienced player and blend new players with established one wanting to create their own team

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Post by Notch Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:10 am

Van Der Merwe was mainly at 13 for Canada in the RWC iirc. Makes sense; they want him on the ball as much as possible. No offence to their other three quarters!
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Post by red_stag Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:17 am

profitius wrote:I see no point in bring along the established internationals. I see it as an opportunity for them to have a well earned break.

I would fill the squad with young, up and coming players and players just outside the first team.

An example of a team I'd pick

1 McGrath/Kilcoyne/McAllister/Buckley
2 Sherry/Strauss
3 Archer/Fitypatrick/Moore/Hagan
4 Tuohy/Stevenson/ben Marshall
5 Henderson
6 Muldoon/Dom Ryan/O'Donnell
7 Faloon/Dougal
8 McKeon/Jordi Murphy

9 Heaney/Marshall/Cooney/Sheridan
10 Madigan/Jackson/Hanrahan
11 Conway/Allen
12 McSharry/Olding
13 Griffin/O'Malley
14 D Kearney/O'Dea/McFadden
15 Keatley/Henshaw


Thats just a rough example off the top of my head. The yanks won't care what team Ireland select so theres no issue with star names missing.

Ihave not seen enough of Copeland to judge but I wouldn't rule him out either.

Ah throw the baby out with the bathwater. Seriously thats excessive in some parts. Cooney, Heaney and Sheridan? Thats just wasting a test spot. They are behind Marshall, Murray, Marmion, Reddan and Boss. You're delving as deep as our 9th choice scrum half. And for what? How much involvement will Cooney really have for Ireland in coming years? For Leinster for that matter.

Similarly why ignore Cave to bring in O'Malley and Griffin? Surely Cave is the more likely to have an international contribution to make in the foreseeable future.

If we go down that road all that will happen is that in 20 years time we have half a dozen guys who can tell their kids about when they got picked once to represent Ireland on tour in North America.

I think even if the opposition are weak there is no reason we should be playing 6th and 7th choice players. We need to try out combinations but they need to have a realistic purpose.
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Post by geoff998rugby Tue 26 Mar 2013, 12:34 pm

Heaney is worth taking he will leap frog Marshall at Ulster and it makes more sense taking him than Boss

My 3 SH's would be Murray, Marmion and one of the Ulster boys - I'd take Heaney but I think it will be Marshall

Other than that position agree with Stag

Taking Faloon and Dougal and not Henry would be an act of complete madness
Taling O'Malley and Griffin and not Cave is likewise madness.

Allen is a great lad but nowhere near ready for International rugby - another crazy suggestion.

By all means leave the older players behind - Boss, Reddan, DOC, McCarthy, D'Arcy etc etc but lets not get silly and ignore the likes of Ryan, Healy, Best, SOB, Fitzgerald, Murray, Henry and Cave

Thats going way to far the other way

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Post by The Great Aukster Tue 26 Mar 2013, 12:40 pm

Agree Red Stag, nothing will be learned by composing a scratch side that will never take the field again.

There are less than two dozen games between now and the next RWC and the vast majority of them will have (and need) first choice players available. These two games may be the only chance some Understudies get to build a rapport with the established players around them, and at least prepare them if they are called up to the team at short notice.

Healy will be with the Lions this summer but will be first choice loosehead for the RWC, so these games allow Kilcoyne and Court to both get team experience. These three loosies are by far the most likely to be in the squad in 2015, so why give any time to a fourth or lower choice? Of course Ireland will have to take a third LH to North America for cover in case of injury (probably McGrath), but there isn't any point in playing him at all when DK and TC are ahead of him and have limited enough time with the rest of the team already.

This same thinking should apply to every position.

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Post by profitius Tue 26 Mar 2013, 12:52 pm

I forgot about Cave and Marmion and maybe one or two others. Its was just off the top of my head.

I still think that taking a new side would be the way to go. The more established players have been injured all season and could do with a longer summer off. The new players would give the squad some freshness as well as being more than good enough to win the games. It would also allow the coaches to see who steps forward as leaders etc.
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Post by red_stag Tue 26 Mar 2013, 12:58 pm

Profitius yes to some extent. We are going to be missing our Lions players. I'd definitely rest Mike Ross as mentioned above and in some key positions (outside centre, props, second rows, scrumhalf and fullback) I definitely want to see new faces.

Older guys like Darcy and O'Callaghan should be left behind but by grab every young player just to wait and see.

I'd rather see us looking at 6-8 well thought out newcomers across the squad instead of having a token international or two amongst the new boys.
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Post by The Great Aukster Tue 26 Mar 2013, 2:49 pm

Kilcoyne, Court, (McGrath)
Strauss, Cronin, (Sherry)
Archer, Bent, (Hagan)
Ryan, Tuohy
McCarthy
Henderson (McLaughlin)
Henry, TOD
POM
Murray, Reddan, Marmion
Madigan, Jackson
Zebo
LMarshall, (McFadden)
Cave
Gilroy, (Trimble)
Kearney, Henshaw

The guys in brackets I wouldn't play at all unless there were injuries. For SH I'd start Murray one game and Reddan the other with Marmion on the bench on both occasions.

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Post by brennomac Tue 26 Mar 2013, 3:01 pm

B91212 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Canada away from home won't be a walk in the park, incidentally. They're ranked 14th in the world at the moment (only just behind Fiji) in comparison to Ireland's 9th. They'll have a pair of Glasgow Warriors on the wings (Van Der Merwe and Paris) and they'll have O'Toole and Cudmore in the boiler room.
Cudmore generally doesn't bother unless its a world cup or something equally high profile so the Irish pack should make it through without any limbs missing. I could be wrong but he is not currently listing in the squad and only made himself available shortly before 2011 in NZ so I expect he will revert back to his self imposed exile. I'm not 100% sure but I think Van Der Merwe generally plays at 13 so he is more involved.

Tickets are currently on sale at $19 if anyone is thinking of 'popping' over to Toronto for the game!

What's the date of the Toronto match B91212, son is gap year working just outside Toronto for a year and wants an excuse to show his silly leprecaun hat again after giving it its debut in the Paddy's Day parade in Toronto. Also what ground are they using for the Ireland game?/

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Post by Golden Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:19 pm

Saturday 15th of June at the Toronto BMO stadium.

Ill be stateside for the summer but the games still look a bit far away. Sad

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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:43 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Kilcoyne, Court, (McGrath)
Strauss, Cronin, (Sherry)
Archer, Bent, (Hagan)
Ryan, Tuohy
McCarthy
Henderson (McLaughlin)
Henry, TOD
POM
Murray, Reddan, Marmion
Madigan, Jackson
Zebo
LMarshall, (McFadden)
Cave
Gilroy, (Trimble)
Kearney, Henshaw

The guys in brackets I wouldn't play at all unless there were injuries. For SH I'd start Murray one game and Reddan the other with Marmion on the bench on both occasions.

I like this although I do think that Kearney will tour and Murray should be left at home. Also McCarthy has to pull up his socks.
Otherwise completely agree

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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:45 pm

PS: I believe this tour is vital importance to the next coach there are some guys like Marshall, Zebo, henshaw, Madigan, Tuohy, Archer who are going to be vital to 2015

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Post by Golden Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:53 pm

Well if the new Coach is installed before this tour then i think he will be keen to get as much time with his likely squad as possible. So it could be full strength (excluding lions).

If we dont have the new coach yet then who will manage them? Ruddock should be busy with the under 20s. Surely there is no point in Kidney having any involvement.

Michael Bradley will be free and has done the job before. Maybe Elwood can be convinced to take the job for about a month?

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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 27 Mar 2013, 9:39 am

Golden wrote:Well if the new Coach is installed before this tour then i think he will be keen to get as much time with his likely squad as possible. So it could be full strength (excluding lions).

If we dont have the new coach yet then who will manage them? Ruddock should be busy with the under 20s. Surely there is no point in Kidney having any involvement.

Michael Bradley will be free and has done the job before. Maybe Elwood can be convinced to take the job for about a month?

I hope it is not full.
Having certain guys there to provide experience is important but there are some guys I would not want to see tour example: Ross, Darcy, Reddan, Coughlan etc.

Stag, do you not think that Zebo could be with the Lions?

Some guys I really want to see get gametime:

Kilcoyne: Should kick on further and has the ability to do so. The more gametime he gets the better.
Bent: Feek has said he is learning at a really quick pace. Has a lot to learn but I think he is so good around the field that if he can get his scrummaging up to scratch then he could do well for us (he is still very young)
Tuohy: I think he is going to have a big part to play in the RWC 2015 and beyond. Good lineout caller and a tough bloke and could overtake McCarthy soon and be behind POC (if he remains fit).
Henderson: I would like to see him at lock but imagine he will play 6 this summer and I think the more gametime he gets the better. Ideally I see that him playing at 6 will aid his development in to an athletic mobile lock in years to come.
Marmion: Personally I think he is the best 9 (possibly behind Murray) in Ireland. Looks outstanding, I want him to start both games.
Madigan: I think he should start both games too. I hope he gets to play one game in the pouring rain to show he can control, manage and direct a game.
Henshaw: I hope he starts putting pressure on Kearney as Kearney always seems to perform better when he has someone breathing down his neck. Henshaw looks great with ball in hand however he needs to cut down his error count.

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Post by red_stag Wed 27 Mar 2013, 10:06 am

Hi Pete,

Zebo certainly could be with the Lions. I don't think he will though. He played basically one 6 Nations game against Wales. He missed the Italy, France and Scotland games along with most of England match. He will miss Munster's Heineken Cup quarter final with Harlequins.

I think if a returning winger will travel it is Tommy Bowe.
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Post by geoff998rugby Wed 27 Mar 2013, 11:10 am

I think Ross has to tour just in case but I would tend to put him on the bench

I'd take Ross, Archer, Bent, Court, Kilcoyne as my props.

Well actually I'd take Andress instead of Ross but that is never going to happen.

To me pick leave behind older players like
D'Arcy, DOC, POC, Reddan, Boss
and players who are not key but have played a fair bit
Earls, McFadden

(I am assuming Healy, Best, SOB, Sexton, BOD etc will be on the Lions)

The likes of Kearney and Heaslip can provide the experience we need and it will be good test of their leadership skills

So a team something like

Kilcoyne, Strauss, Bent/Archer, Ryan, Tuohy, Henderson, Heaslip, Henry, Murray, Madigan, Gilroy, Marshall, Cave, Zebo, Kearney

Bench: Court, Sherry, Ross, Toner, O'Donnell, Marmion, Jackson, Henshaw

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Post by Notch Wed 27 Mar 2013, 12:00 pm

geoff about Ross- just in case what?
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Post by geoff998rugby Wed 27 Mar 2013, 12:20 pm

The other are not good enough

Neither Bent or Archer inspire much confidence and one or both of them being mullered in the scrum by a decent Canadian would not surprise me in the least.

We do not want to be losing to Canada because of penalty after penalty at the scrum. We need to see what they can do but lets have Ross as insurance.


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Post by red_stag Wed 27 Mar 2013, 12:23 pm

Archer and Bent aren't that bad Geoff.

I would rather they had a game where they got turned inside out a few times and learned from it.

That 2010 humiliation by Toulouse was the making of Healy IMO. A rite of passage that made him a top player.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 27 Mar 2013, 1:00 pm

What about Loughney? Also Hagan should be ahead of Bent anyway.

give Bent the rest as he has been pretty much going all season.

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Post by rodders Wed 27 Mar 2013, 1:16 pm

red_stag wrote:Archer and Bent aren't that bad Geoff.

I would rather they had a game where they got turned inside out a few times and learned from it.

That 2010 humiliation by Toulouse was the making of Healy IMO. A rite of passage that made him a top player.

Healy was only a young fella then and had the capacity to make significant physical improvements.

The other two guys are in their mid twenties and don't. If they are getting mullered now then henceforth the same outcome shall endure......
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Post by Notch Wed 27 Mar 2013, 1:17 pm

Yeah, I hope Bent is rested for Hagan. Bent looks knackered and off form. Perhaps because he's been playing longer due to the overlap in SH/NH seasons and has had to adjust to a change in standard and style of rugby but even so- Hagan is better right now.

But think it won't happen as a) IRFU will be too stung on the bad press of Bents poor form since his debut and want to show it was the right call to fast track him and b) Hagan is on his way out to L. Irish and as far as foreign-based players are concerned we cut off our nose to spite our face.
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Post by Notch Wed 27 Mar 2013, 1:18 pm

rodders wrote:
red_stag wrote:Archer and Bent aren't that bad Geoff.

I would rather they had a game where they got turned inside out a few times and learned from it.

That 2010 humiliation by Toulouse was the making of Healy IMO. A rite of passage that made him a top player.

Healy was only a young fella then and had the capacity to make significant physical improvements.

The other two guys are in their mid twenties and don't. If they are getting mullered now then henceforth the same outcome shall endure......

Physical improvements maybe not, but technical improvements- absolutely.
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Post by rodders Wed 27 Mar 2013, 1:20 pm

Notch wrote:
rodders wrote:
red_stag wrote:Archer and Bent aren't that bad Geoff.

I would rather they had a game where they got turned inside out a few times and learned from it.

That 2010 humiliation by Toulouse was the making of Healy IMO. A rite of passage that made him a top player.

Healy was only a young fella then and had the capacity to make significant physical improvements.

The other two guys are in their mid twenties and don't. If they are getting mullered now then henceforth the same outcome shall endure......

Physical improvements maybe not, but technical improvements- absolutely.

Accepted but likely that is not going to be enough to turn a deck chair into a world beater.... a la Healy
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