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NZ's best bowling attack for future Test Matches

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Post by gboycottnut Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:45 pm

Looking back on the recently finished NZ V England test series, it seems that NZ have now got a very good healthy selection of at least 5 excellent pace bowlers in/around their current test and ODI squad. What is a weakness for them is in the spin bowling department, where apart from the ageing Daniel Vettori there just doesn't seem to be anyone promising in their domestic scene who looks likely that he is going to be a matchwinning spinner for NZ in the future. Bruce Martin looked like that player to fill Vettori's shoes for when Vettori eventually retires but based on his performances with the ball in the 3rd test at Auckland he just doesn't seem like a bowler who is going to be running through test match level batting lineups with 5+ fors with the ball on a consistent basis. Anyway assuming that NZ stick with a same format/plan of using just a 4 man specialist bowling attack in the near future, what then is their best quartet of bowlers? Is it Boult, Southee, Bracewell, Vettori? is it Boult, Wagner, Bracewell, Vettori or is a very young but very exciting all-pace attack of Boult, Bracewell, MacClenaghan and the very express pace of young Adam Milne NZ's best hope/chance of having a bowling attack that can win test matches for NZ on a regular basis against opposition teams with strong batting lineups like SA, India, Australia and England.

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:53 am

If Vettori is to be in the side that I prefer NZ to go with five bowlers. Boult, Southee, Bracewell, Wagner and Vettori because in that condition they will have five specialist bowlers and again Vetorri can be handy with the bat also. Regarding MacClenaghan he is a promising bowler who can lead the NZ attack so it all depend on selectors and team Management to use him effectively. He is still to play a test and I believe he should get a chance in England in May.
I was just watching him in SL he was bowling well, but unfortunately he didn't get any chances after that. What so ever be the reason but I think NZ bowling is going to be one of the best in terms of Pace attack in recent future. Regarding spin attack in this series against England the duo of Martin and Williamson proved handy. But coming of vettori will bring some more confidence in the side. Real test of all the NZ pace attack will be when they will tour India. If you bowl well in odd condition you come across the difficulties of your art.
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Post by msp83 Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:04 pm

Martin's at the same age range as Vetori is, so it is unlikely that he'd step up when Vetori retires. Vetori is back after injuries that have troubled him for the last couple of seasons, I hope he'll now be back to the top of his game. Vetori is a quality all-rounder, more than capable to bat 7 for New Zealand. McCullum can bat 5, Watling at 6, and Vetori at 7. Brownlie is capable of scoring test runs, but his consistency is not really at the level of a test batsman. So while he has to be around the squad to step in when needed, I won't have him as a regular playing member as of now.
Had the atrocious attack not taken place, I would have had Jesse Ryder batting at 5, and Vetori playing as part of a 4 man attack. But alas not to be for now.
Fulton
Rutherford
Williamson
Taylor
McCullum
Watling
Vetori
Southee
Bracewell
Wagner
Boult.

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Post by gboycottnut Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:33 pm

msp83 wrote:Martin's at the same age range as Vetori is, so it is unlikely that he'd step up when Vetori retires. Vetori is back after injuries that have troubled him for the last couple of seasons, I hope he'll now be back to the top of his game. Vetori is a quality all-rounder, more than capable to bat 7 for New Zealand. McCullum can bat 5, Watling at 6, and Vetori at 7. Brownlie is capable of scoring test runs, but his consistency is not really at the level of a test batsman. So while he has to be around the squad to step in when needed, I won't have him as a regular playing member as of now.
Had the atrocious attack not taken place, I would have had Jesse Ryder batting at 5, and Vetori playing as part of a 4 man attack. But alas not to be for now.
Fulton
Rutherford
Williamson
Taylor
McCullum
Watling
Vetori
Southee
Bracewell
Wagner
Boult.

I feel that when NZ tour England in May, they will bring their strongest squad of players since their tour of England in 1986 when the likes of Hadlee, Wright, the Crowe brothers, Coney, John Bracewell and Ian Smith played for them. Apart from the playing XI that played in all 3 of the tests V England, they also have guys like Tom Latham, Doug Bracewell, Mitchell MacClenaghan, and possibly the former Aussie wicketkeeper Luke Ronchi with which they can include in their final touring party for England.

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Post by Shelsey93 Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:46 pm

Lets not get ahead of ourselves on NZ... they played better than expected, but the same players got destroyed by SA a couple of months ago. It was as much our poor showings as NZ's strength which led to us to not winning the series.

To progress beyond 8th in the world they'll need to stick to a team. In England that should be the same XI that played in NZ. However, going forward I'm not sure Fulton or Brownlie will stick around for much longer.

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Post by alfie Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:32 pm

Wasn't the same players though , was it , Shelsey ? Top order batting was completely different , McCullum down the order was a different player , Southee added to the attack...Englnd were a bit off the boil certainly , but I am inclined to give NZ more credit and wait and see how they do going forward.
Might not be world beaters , but they have the basis for a decent team , especially if Vettori returns as the all rounder.
Won't be a pushover in England either.

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Post by Shelsey93 Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:42 pm

It wasn't far off the same team. Guptill, who most would say is one of NZ's best players, and Daniel Flynn - who was well out of his depth - were the only two that played in SA but not v England (batsmen). Agree that McCullum down the order worked superbly.

NZ did play much better and indeed they won't just roll over in England (probably - although WI rolled over in England after beating us in WI a few years ago).

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Post by chrisss Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:25 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:It wasn't far off the same team. Guptill, who most would say is one of NZ's best players, and Daniel Flynn - who was well out of his depth - were the only two that played in SA but not v England (batsmen). Agree that McCullum down the order worked superbly.

NZ did play much better and indeed they won't just roll over in England (probably - although WI rolled over in England after beating us in WI a few years ago).

If people do, they are vastly overrating him. He only averages more than 30 against the West Indies, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh and has scored 2 centuries- 1 against Zimbabwe and 1 against Bangladesh.

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Post by gboycottnut Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:02 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:Lets not get ahead of ourselves on NZ... they played better than expected, but the same players got destroyed by SA a couple of months ago. It was as much our poor showings as NZ's strength which led to us to not winning the series.

To progress beyond 8th in the world they'll need to stick to a team. In England that should be the same XI that played in NZ. However, going forward I'm not sure Fulton or Brownlie will stick around for much longer.

It was not the same playing XI that did well against England that a month or two earlier had performed so badly in South Africa. Firstly NZ managed to get a decent pair of openers against England in Fulton and the youngster Rutherford. Another significant different is that one of their best batsmen in world cricket (Ross Taylor) came back into their test side and in the bowling lineup they managed to find a decent enough spin bowler in Bruce Martin who could also bat a bit at the crucial number 8 spot in the test side in the absence of their senior spinner Dan Vettori.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:04 pm

IMO 4 seamers is their best option...

8.Bracewell
9.Southee
10.Wagner
11.Boult


however I would have Martin over Vettori in test cricket to be honest based on current form...and in that circumstance i would leave out Wagner

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Post by msp83 Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:41 pm

No team would do all that well to just go in with only 4 seamers and no decent spin option. Such specialities are reserved for the likes of the 1980s West Indies who could just put together 11 out and out fast bowlers if they wanted. I don't think it would be a good option even for South Africa. It has to be a madcap green seemer of a pitch to even consider goin in without a spinner.
NZ can go in with 4 seamers, only and only if Vetori plays, or they somehow unearth a spin bowling all-rounder in his mold.

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Post by Shelsey93 Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:51 pm

I wonder if Vettori will ever play Tests again to be honest. His joints seem to be creaking after the period in which he was Mr. NZ Cricket. He hasn't played the long format since July last year, and I get the feeling he prefers the one-dayers.


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Post by msp83 Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:52 pm

When Vetori retired from T-20Is, he said he wants to focus more on test cricket in the remaining part of his career.

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Post by msp83 Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:54 pm

If injuries continue to trouble him, NZ could look at Martin for now, or todd Astle in the future. Both are quite capable with the bat as well. Astle is regarded as an all-rounder, and Martin has showed he is a pretty handy number 9.

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Post by gboycottnut Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:27 pm

Vettori I believe has batted at number 6 in test matches for NZ and so therefore taking into account the current concerns about his physical ability to bowl many overs during a test match, I could see NZ going in with a 5 man bowling attack of 3 seamers and 2 spinners if the wicket is slow or with 4 seamers and a spinner if the wicket offers a lot of pace and assistance to the seamers.


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Post by ShankyCricket Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:02 pm

msp83 wrote:Martin's at the same age range as Vetori is, so it is unlikely that he'd step up when Vetori retires. Vetori is back after injuries that have troubled him for the last couple of seasons, I hope he'll now be back to the top of his game. Vetori is a quality all-rounder, more than capable to bat 7 for New Zealand. McCullum can bat 5, Watling at 6, and Vetori at 7. Brownlie is capable of scoring test runs, but his consistency is not really at the level of a test batsman. So while he has to be around the squad to step in when needed, I won't have him as a regular playing member as of now.
Had the atrocious attack not taken place, I would have had Jesse Ryder batting at 5, and Vetori playing as part of a 4 man attack. But alas not to be for now.
Fulton
Rutherford
Williamson
Taylor
McCullum
Watling
Vetori
Southee
Bracewell
Wagner
Boult.
Despite Martin's performance, you'd still have considered Vettori as a part of a 4 man attack despite his atrocious form before his injury, which I repeat again and again, is a lot worse than your enemy Harbhajan.

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Post by ShankyCricket Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:06 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:Lets not get ahead of ourselves on NZ... they played better than expected, but the same players got destroyed by SA a couple of months ago. It was as much our poor showings as NZ's strength which led to us to not winning the series.

To progress beyond 8th in the world they'll need to stick to a team. In England that should be the same XI that played in NZ. However, going forward I'm not sure Fulton or Brownlie will stick around for much longer.
Err.... you are forgetting that they also drew against SL in SL. To say that they're no better than the Number 8 team is insulting. They'd streamroller the Sri Lankans and West Indies at home. And they managed to compete with SL in SL and indeed draw the series. Dominated England for the better part of this series too. I still don't rate their batting but they have a quality seam attack.

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Post by ShankyCricket Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:11 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:Lets not get ahead of ourselves on NZ... they played better than expected, but the same players got destroyed by SA a couple of months ago. It was as much our poor showings as NZ's strength which led to us to not winning the series.

To progress beyond 8th in the world they'll need to stick to a team. In England that should be the same XI that played in NZ. However, going forward I'm not sure Fulton or Brownlie will stick around for much longer.
I'd say SA rolling them over just shows how far ahead they are of other teams, at the moment in conditions that assist seam bowling (although I still think they'll struggle in India or indeed against Pakistan in the UAE).

But in conditions that assist their seamers, they're unstoppable. Even Pakistan got rolled over in SA, didn't they? Are they also a poor side (bearing in mind what they did to England 14 months ago)?

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Post by msp83 Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:41 pm

If the pitches in the UAE have some life about them, we should see South Africa doing a great deal better than other non-sub-continent sides usually do in spinning conditions. South Africa have the batting to cope with spinning conditions with Amla, Kallis and AB all pretty decent players of spin. Robin Peterson is the best bet in the spin department for them, but he's no world beater. But Dale Steyn could be a handful even in these conditions. Have to see what Philander can produce.
But on seaming conditions, SA are pretty much ahead of other sides at the moment, and getting rolled by SA hasn't been an experience limited to New Zealand. Australia were rolled for 47, NZ for 45 and Pakistan for 49, all within the last year or so.


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Post by KP_fan Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:02 am

NZ's bolwing looked good when I saw them in India last year...and I remarked upon it.
They do need a spinner...Patel ain't bad...not a match winner...but a competent 2nd inning bowler.

Vettori actually should be back as the 5th bowler cum 7the batsman.

That said I would read the last series more as a one off......NZ punched way abopve their weight...while Eng were just a bit too relaxed coming off a historic and difficult win
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Post by kingraf Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:19 am

yeah, in seaming conditions SA are streets ahead. probably as good as any team in history. But UAE is a different kettle. Steyn is gonna have to bowl fast and straight a la Holding, I think Morkel will be very key.

As for NZ, this seems to be building to be as good a team as they have put out in history. Kane Williamson is potentially world-class. Ross Taylor is world class. Dean Brownle and BJ Watling are at least test-class. Boult and Southee could probably earn a spot in any team (not spear heads, note) sans SA.
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Post by gboycottnut Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:01 pm

kingraf wrote:yeah, in seaming conditions SA are streets ahead. probably as good as any team in history. But UAE is a different kettle. Steyn is gonna have to bowl fast and straight a la Holding, I think Morkel will be very key.

As for NZ, this seems to be building to be as good a team as they have put out in history. Kane Williamson is potentially world-class. Ross Taylor is world class. Dean Brownle and BJ Watling are at least test-class. Boult and Southee could probably earn a spot in any team (not spear heads, note) sans SA.

I think the crucial factor in NZ's improvement from the SA test series has been that they now have a settled bowling attack, with other bowlers such as Bracewell, MacClenaghan, Milne, Bennett and the young leg spinner Todd Astle as a second string bowling attack with its players being good enough to get into most other countries test match bowling attacks in the world apart from perhaps SA's and Australia's. Anyway, I really would love to see NZ fielding an exciting all-pace quartet bowling attack V England in May consisting of their 4 fastest bowlers of Boult, MacClenaghan, Wagner and Milne but their is almost zero chance this is going to happen.

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Post by kingraf Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:25 pm

Its still too early, plus the captain isnt doing enough to justify a spot in the squad. But give it 15-20 tests, this NZ side will be top 4. That beat down by SA will help them long run
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Post by msp83 Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:53 pm

kingraf wrote:Its still too early, plus the captain isnt doing enough to justify a spot in the squad. But give it 15-20 tests, this NZ side will be top 4. That beat down by SA will help them long run
Well, think that is very harsh on the New Zealand skipper. The entire England tour, this has been the most consistent I've seen Brendon McCullum in his whole career. He did well in the T-20Is, ODIs and in all the tests as well.
Him not converting those 50s into hundreds is certainly a bit of a concern, but he has made important contributions with the bat throughout the series. Think he should bat ahead of Dean Brownlie though.

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Post by kingraf Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:57 pm

But without the gloves, I dont think that is enough.
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Post by msp83 Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:05 pm

I would agree McCullum didn't do justice to a batsman only ole for some time, but that's before this series. He didn't deliver in South Africa, and for almost a year up to that period, he didn't really justify a gloveless role in the team.
But in this series, he had scores of 74, 69, 38 and 67 not out. His overall average is 36. While none of this figures are standouts, I think to suggest that he doesn't deserve a place in the squad is stretching things quite a bit. We have to remember that other than Ross Taylor, not many New Zealand batsmen average over 40 in recent times.

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Post by kingraf Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:43 pm

So four innings justifies everything then? I am not calling for him to be dropped, but I am saying "NZ is really low on depth, so for them to punch above their weight it requires more concerted efforts from big players."
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Post by KP_fan Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:48 pm

KP_fan wrote:NZ's bolwing looked good when I saw them in India last year...and I remarked upon it.
They do need a spinner...Patel ain't bad...not a match winner...but a competent 2nd inning bowler.

Vettori actually should be back as the 5th bowler cum 7the batsman.

That said I would read the last series more as a one off......NZ punched way abopve their weight...while Eng were just a bit too relaxed coming off a historic and difficult win

PS* and in addtion to the above in bold...let me remind who was out of the playing XI of England........without "him" they came within a whisker of losing laughing
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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:36 am

Vettori isn't going to be fit to pay the tests in England (he's played 2 domestic 50 over matches on his return from injury but will play in the IPL) though he's hoping to make the ODI series vs England and the Champions Trophy. Hence I expect the spinners for the tests will be Bruce Martin (who's only 32 so probably has a role for a couple of years as a stop gap - a la Paul Harris) and (possibly) Patel if he's gotten his head right.
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Post by msp83 Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:48 am

Vetori said at the time of the England series that he was hoping to be back for the return leg didn't he? Has any new fitness concerns developed? Or is it just that he's not quite ready for the rigours of a 5 day game?

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:55 am

msp83 wrote:Vetori said at the time of the England series that he was hoping to be back for the return leg didn't he? Has any new fitness concerns developed? Or is it just that he's not quite ready for the rigours of a 5 day game?

The latter basically http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8481530/Vettori-to-play-limited-role-at-best-on-tour
At his age getting ready for test matches after 6 months on the sidelines takes a bit more than a couple of one dayers and some IPL games.
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Post by msp83 Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:31 am

So Vettori is coming out of ODI retirement. And the article seems to indicate that his test career is almost over. I feel Vettori has a couple more years of test cricket left in him at this stage and along with Ryder, I hope to see him back him in test action sooner rather than later.

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Post by msp83 Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:34 am

Also interesting that Martin Guptill is being considered for a middle order role as the new openers have got off to a decent start. Think that won't be a bad move at all. So there is added pressure on Dean Brownlie.
Kane Williamson had reasonable success at 3, but I would like to see him batting at 5 if Guptill is coming back. Guptill could bat 3, and McCullum could continue at his recently preferred number 6.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:21 am

msp83 wrote:Also interesting that Martin Guptill is being considered for a middle order role as the new openers have got off to a decent start. Think that won't be a bad move at all. So there is added pressure on Dean Brownlie.
Kane Williamson had reasonable success at 3, but I would like to see him batting at 5 if Guptill is coming back. Guptill could bat 3, and McCullum could continue at his recently preferred number 6.

As good as Guptill is opening in limited overs he simply hasn't performed there at test level. I'd be inclined to leave KW at 3 given that he's performing (I know he's only 22, but he's already the test vice captain, so clearly mature beyond his years). If Guptil can settle in at 5 I'd say he's a better bet than Brownlie, who's a little too much of a back foot player for my liking.
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Post by msp83 Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:04 am

Vettori indeed misses out on the test squad and is selected for the ODI squad. Mark Gillespie makes a comeback to the test squad. Martin Guptill is also back after injury, putting Dean Brownlie under pressure for his spot. Bruce Martin's the only spinner in the squad. Wagner, Southee, Boult and Bracewell constitute a strong pace unit along with Gillespie.
Former Australian wicketkeeper Luke Ronchi gets his first New Zealand call up for the ODI squad.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-new-zealand-2013/content/current/story/628171.html

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NZ's best bowling attack for future Test Matches Empty Re: NZ's best bowling attack for future Test Matches

Post by gboycottnut Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:15 am

msp83 wrote:Vettori indeed misses out on the test squad and is selected for the ODI squad. Mark Gillespie makes a comeback to the test squad. Martin Guptill is also back after injury, putting Dean Brownlie under pressure for his spot. Bruce Martin's the only spinner in the squad. Wagner, Southee, Boult and Bracewell constitute a strong pace unit along with Gillespie.
Former Australian wicketkeeper Luke Ronchi gets his first New Zealand call up for the ODI squad.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-new-zealand-2013/content/current/story/628171.html

Can't believe NZ went back to Mark Gillespie despite having other pace bowlers to choose from who are not only younger than Mark but are crucially also faster than him such as MacClenaghan, Milne, Henry.

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