BT Sport makes its move

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22462525

BT Sport 1 and 2 will be free to BT Broadband customers. That is quite a lot of sport, including 38 live Premier Games. Quite incredible move, and might break the near-monopoly of Sky Sports. Hats off to BT for that.

Kay Fabe wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I hate their studio stuff, and they have been using a commentator I dont like, one of the older guys, and hes awful.

Ian Darke? I love him, he was the voice of Monday Night Football when the Premiership began back in 92, prefer him to any other English commentator these days.

I also love the BT Studio stuff they do, its fresh, its a zillion times above ESPN and I find it just as good if not better at times than SKY...their coverage of Scottish Football blows SKY out the water, SKY treat us like an inconvenience

I dont like Darke any more, I think he sounds a bit too old and he doesnt have the changes of tone in his commentary for me. I think there were younger commentators they could have used to move themselves on and look (well, sound) really fresh. 

I do like how much they seem to care about their stuff, which I would imagine comes across in their scottish football coverage (I will admit, I havent watched it). Above all else, they blow ESPN out of the water. And for fans of some of the other content they have done really well. UFC coverage is a cracking acquisition, massive growing audience. Not to bring wrestling into too many areas, but TNA should definitely look to move over to BT Sport.

Hero wrote:If you were to rank the top ten clubs in Europe at this moment in time what would they be?

1. Bayern Munich
2. Barcelona
3. Real Madrid
4. Borussia Dortmund
5. Juventus
6. PSG
7. Chelsea
8. Napoli
9. Manchester United
10. Manchester City

Crimey wrote:

Hero wrote:If you were to rank the top ten clubs in Europe at this moment in time what would they be?

1. Bayern Munich
2. Barcelona
3. Real Madrid
4. Borussia Dortmund
5. Juventus
6. PSG
7. Chelsea
8. Napoli
9. Manchester United
10. Manchester City

I'd go the same ten but in a different order.

1. Bayern Munich
2. Real Madrid
3. Barcelona
4. Borussia Dortmund
5. Chelsea
6. Juventus
7. Man City
8. PSG
9. Man Utd
10. Napoli

Taking into account last season and not having enough to go this season.

1. Bayern Munich
2. Borussia Dortmund
3. Barcelona
4. Man United
5. Real Madrid
6. Man City
7. Juventus
8. Chelsea
9. PSG
10. Napoli

Not sure on what basis the current english champions are behind City, Chelsea, Napoli and PSG.

Crimey wrote:

Hero wrote:If you were to rank the top ten clubs in Europe at this moment in time what would they be?

1. Bayern Munich
2. Barcelona
3. Real Madrid
4. Borussia Dortmund
5. Juventus
6. PSG
7. Chelsea
8. Napoli
9. Manchester United
10. Manchester City

I would pick that same 10 based on last seasons performances but I also think that Monaco in the next couple of years are going to be pushing the top 10 teams.

Crimey wrote:

Hero wrote:If you were to rank the top ten clubs in Europe at this moment in time what would they be?

1. Bayern Munich
2. Barcelona
3. Real Madrid
4. Borussia Dortmund
5. Juventus
6. PSG
7. Chelsea
8. Napoli
9. Manchester United
10. Manchester City

Pahahaha, can tell you're a Liverpool fan.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Crimey wrote:

Hero wrote:If you were to rank the top ten clubs in Europe at this moment in time what would they be?

1. Bayern Munich
2. Barcelona
3. Real Madrid
4. Borussia Dortmund
5. Juventus
6. PSG
7. Chelsea
8. Napoli
9. Manchester United
10. Manchester City

Pahahaha, can tell you're a Liverpool fan.

How? 

Hero ranked Manchester United 9th as well, and he's a United fan. 

I don't think it's unfair on any of those teams to rank them in their positions. I wasn't sure on Chelsea, but I have a feeling this year will prove me right.

Can I ask how you have the english league champions behind Chelsea and City other than predicting the future?

To have a bunch of teams who finished behind United, ahead of United in a list of best teams is absurd.

And Napoli came second last season but were knocked out early doors in both domestic and european competitions by relative nobodies. Certainly not enough to place ahead of United.

PSG also requires a lot of speculation and ignoring of actual achievement as all they did last season was win a crap domestic league for the first time in 20 yrs. That a QF's in Europe.

Whereas United were cruising against Madrid before Nani was absurdly sent off for having a playing run into his foot, also reminds me of who my most hated former player is.

Reason I have Utd 9th is because I based it upon the question I asked of ranking them 'at this moment in time'. Not at the end of last season, not in the QFs of last seasons CL, but at this moment.
Utd clearly have not addressed their weaker areas as they wished to in the transfer market, they've lost what was their strongest asset in SAF and rivals have delved into the transfer market with intent.
This isn't wild projections, the bookies clearly agree too at this present moment in time to place Utd a distant third favourites for the title.

It was still a definite red card

Hero wrote:Reason I have Utd 9th is because I based it upon the question I asked of ranking them 'at this moment in time'. Not at the end of last season, not in the QFs of last seasons CL, but at this moment.
Utd clearly have not addressed their weaker areas as they wished to in the transfer market, they've lost what was their strongest asset in SAF and rivals have delved into the transfer market with intent.
This isn't wild projections, the bookies clearly agree too at this present moment in time to place Utd a distant third favourites for the title.

I would agree with this.

So it is in fact based on pure speculation rather than any evidence on the pitch where City lost to Cardiff, Chelsea never looked like beating United and PSG have drawn twice.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:So it is in fact based on pure speculation rather than any evidence on the pitch where City lost to Cardiff, Chelsea never looked like beating United and PSG have drawn twice.

Isn't that what all your posts have been about?

1. Bayern Munich
2. Real Madrid
3. Barcelona
4. Borussia Dortmund
5. PSG
6. Juventus
7. Chelsea
8. Man City
9. Man Utd
10. Arsenal

I use common sense rather trying to suggest a foreign league is more popular than the home league and backing it up rather than going silent when challenged.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:I use common sense rather trying to suggest a foreign league is more popular than the home league and backing it up rather than going silent when challenged.

Quote where I said the league is more popular?

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:So it is in fact based on pure speculation rather than any evidence on the pitch where City lost to Cardiff, Chelsea never looked like beating United and PSG have drawn twice.

And Utd looked abysmal v Liverpool you forgot to mention.

No it's based on being aware of clubs that have improved through transfer dealings, being aware of odds offered by bookies (unsurprisingly they don't tend to make the teams they think will win things at long odds, they have Chelsea as more likely winners of the CL than Utd too), believing that the upheaval at Utd will take a while to settle due to the length of service of SAF. A lot of bookies have Utd at the same odds for the CL as PSG and City, I believe that's generous to Utd personally.
Everyone's views on it are their own, there's no definitive proof until the end of the season comes round and the titles are handed out, but my personal view is Utd are looking a wounded animal.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:So it is in fact based on pure speculation rather than any evidence on the pitch where City lost to Cardiff, Chelsea never looked like beating United and PSG have drawn twice.

Isn't that what all your posts have been about?

pot.....kettle.......black.......

The question is one that requires speculation, I speculated that this year City and Chelsea would perform better than Manchester United and as of right now I think they're better. I might not be right, but it's a very subjective question. 

You are speculating that Manchester United would have beaten Real Madrid if Nani hadn't gotten sent off, which I don't agree with. I think asserting that Manchester United were "cruising" against Madrid is ridiculous.

It is not a question that requires speculation or forecasting.

It is not "who will be the best 10 teams in 12 months time", which is the question you're apparently answering.

It does require speculating because at this given moment in time those clubs are not facing one another, it cannot be judged upon last seasons performance as the clubs have changed both players and management so has to be based upon what we believe is the current strongest set up of the individual teams.

Chelsea and United HAVE just faced eachother though and Chelsea could muster little, was a very even game. Chuck in United winning the EPL at a canter last season with Chelsea effectively nowhere and the only way you can have Chelsea ahead of United in such a list is pure speculation and forecasting, essentially guesswork that doesn't answer the question.

Who cares?

May is when it matters, until then the rest can just blow smoke.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Chelsea and United HAVE just faced eachother though and Chelsea could muster little, was a very even game.  Chuck in United winning the EPL at a canter last season with Chelsea effectively nowhere and the only way you can have Chelsea ahead of United in such a list is pure speculation and forecasting, essentially guesswork that doesn't answer the question.

Chelsea set their self up to contain United, it's hard to judge the quality of both sides when Chelsea played in a way designed to just block out United rather than score themselves. I think Mourinho went out for the 0-0 draw and so in a way they succeeded more than United did.

I don't think it's ridiculous to put United below them, in fact judging by predictions by pundits and fans alike, most people would agree with me and Hero. Last season was very different, the top three clubs have three different managers and two have very different first team squads. 

You also can't tell the person who asked the question, that they're not answering the question. Clearly Hero meant there to be speculation and forecasting involved. It's a very subjective matter anyway, as it depends on what you classify as the 'best'. 

If it was any other club put ninth, you wouldn't have such a problem, it's simply because you're a United supporter and don't want to admit that perhaps you've been left behind this summer a bit.

That's convenient. Rate Chelsea several places ahead of United even though they couldn't be split when actually playing eachother and ignore recent successes and evidence but speculate into the future.

I'm a United supporter and an objective realist who prefers to deal in facts figures and evidence not wild subjective speculation. Fact is nobody that's rated them so low has been able to justify it, that tells you all you need to know.

TopHat24/7 wrote:That's convenient.  Rate Chelsea several places ahead of United even though they couldn't be split when actually playing eachother and ignore recent successes and evidence but speculate into the future.

"Several" being two?

I don't understand what you find hard to understand that a lot has changed since May, so it does require speculation based on evidence. Based on the level of players signed, based on the form towards the end of the season, based on new managers coming in and the success of those managers, based on the match between the two clubs which I felt was more of a success for Chelsea than it was for United and based on this seasons form where United have looked quite poor, not scoring in two of their games, albeit against better opponents than Chelsea have had to face.

Five titles in 7 years coming second twice, once on goal difference and once by one point yet we're only the tenth best team in europe behind Chelsea, City, PSG and Napoli.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Five titles in 7 years coming second twice, once on goal difference and once by one point yet we're only the tenth best team in europe behind Chelsea, City, PSG and Napoli.

Exactly.

Crimey wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:That's convenient.  Rate Chelsea several places ahead of United even though they couldn't be split when actually playing eachother and ignore recent successes and evidence but speculate into the future.

"Several" being two?

I don't understand what you find hard to understand that a lot has changed since May, so it does require speculation based on evidence. Based on the level of players signed, based on the form towards the end of the season, based on new managers coming in and the success of those managers, based on the match between the two clubs which I felt was more of a success for Chelsea than it was for United and based on this seasons form where United have looked quite poor, not scoring in two of their games, albeit against better opponents than Chelsea have had to face.

Looking quite poor but still a team rated 2-4 places higher couldn't beat them??

Like I said, you're conveniently avoiding fact and results and evidence in order to speculate into the future to knock United down a peg or three.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Crimey wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:That's convenient.  Rate Chelsea several places ahead of United even though they couldn't be split when actually playing eachother and ignore recent successes and evidence but speculate into the future.

"Several" being two?

I don't understand what you find hard to understand that a lot has changed since May, so it does require speculation based on evidence. Based on the level of players signed, based on the form towards the end of the season, based on new managers coming in and the success of those managers, based on the match between the two clubs which I felt was more of a success for Chelsea than it was for United and based on this seasons form where United have looked quite poor, not scoring in two of their games, albeit against better opponents than Chelsea have had to face.

Looking quite poor but still a team rated 2-4 places higher couldn't beat them??

Like I said, you're conveniently avoiding fact and results and evidence in order to speculate into the future to knock United down a peg or three.

Yeah but who cares? We will see in may - this time last year people would have probably ranked united as low.

Fsct and results show Utd are behind Chelsea and City currently in the table.

And where were they 5 games ago?

Don't see anyone putting Liverpool in the top10 yet they've been the best team by far so far this season.

Hero wrote:Fsct and results show Utd are behind Chelsea and City currently in the table.

After 3 games?

Behave.

1 Bayern
2 Barca
3 Dortmund
4 Real
5 Juve
6 United
7 PSG
8 Chelsea
9 Napoli
10 City

Fuller expect United to drop down that list in 12 months down. Good chance Monaco move into it. But that's how it stands, IMO, as at 09.09.13.

Crimey wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:That's convenient.  Rate Chelsea several places ahead of United even though they couldn't be split when actually playing eachother and ignore recent successes and evidence but speculate into the future.

"Several" being two?

I don't understand what you find hard to understand that a lot has changed since May, so it does require speculation based on evidence. Based on the level of players signed, based on the form towards the end of the season, based on new managers coming in and the success of those managers, based on the match between the two clubs which I felt was more of a success for Chelsea than it was for United and based on this seasons form where United have looked quite poor, not scoring in two of their games, albeit against better opponents than Chelsea have had to face.

I agree with you. At this present moment in time 9/9/2013 chelsea are above united in terms of having a better team and more chances of winning things. Man united look totally confused with thier summer transfers and changing their manager.

'At the present moment in time' ergo - speculating what's going to happen in the next 12 months

Citeh get a couple of injuries as do Chelski and United spend £100m at Xmas and everything is turned on its head = why forecasting doesn't answer the question.

TopHat24/7 wrote:'At the present moment in time' ergo - speculating what's going to happen in the next 12 months

Citeh get a couple of injuries as do Chelski and United spend £100m at Xmas and everything is turned on its head = why forecasting doesn't answer the question.

But everything is speculation, saying United will finish higher than Stoke is speculation based on subjective and objective evidence.

Or you can use the facts of what has recently happened.

English league champions 2012/2013

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Or you can use the facts of what has recently happened.

English league champions 2012/2013

That was 2012/2013 we are now in 2013/2014

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Or you can use the facts of what has recently happened.

English league champions 2012/2013

It's like 'notbeingabletocount-gate' all over again....

TopHat24/7 wrote:

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Or you can use the facts of what has recently happened.

English league champions 2012/2013

It's like 'notbeingabletocount-gate' all over again....

Typical Man U supporters in denial that their club has gone backwards this season and other clubs have gotten stronger than them.

Keep saying that man U won the league last year because that is going to help Man U win the league this year and the Cmapions league this year

What's all this arguing about?

Manchester United are England's premier football club at the moment. That is an indisputable fact, backed up by statistics. On any European club ranking list therefore, Manchester United should always be placed above City or Chelsea.

Duty281 wrote:What's all this arguing about?

Manchester United are England's premier football club at the moment. That is an indisputable fact, backed up by statistics. On any European club ranking list therefore, Manchester United should always be placed above City or Chelsea.

Are they? They look pretty poor this season and have a new manager and very oor transfers this summer. What makes them the best team in England right now?

Duty281 wrote:What's all this arguing about?

Manchester United are England's premier football club at the moment. That is an indisputable fact, backed up by statistics. On any European club ranking list therefore, Manchester United should always be placed above City or Chelsea.

Last time I checked Chelsea are higher up than United in the UEFA coefficient by 10.000 points. So clearly they aren't the "premier club".

If Utd are considered stronger then can someone answer me why they have longer odds for both the league and Champions League than Chelsea?
Bookies as far as I'm aware are quite loathe to lose money.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Duty281 wrote:What's all this arguing about?

Manchester United are England's premier football club at the moment. That is an indisputable fact, backed up by statistics. On any European club ranking list therefore, Manchester United should always be placed above City or Chelsea.

Are they? They look pretty poor this season and have a new manager and very oor transfers this summer. What makes them the best team in England right now?

Oh I don't know. Current English league champions might make them the best team in England right now.

No it made the best team in England in May when they won the title, not right now.