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England v Ireland and Brazil v England

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Post by Duty281 Wed May 29, 2013 12:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

The regular season might be over, but Roy Hodgson's England have two friendlies to negotiate before they can put their feet up for the summer. Tonight, England host Ireland in the first game between the sides since the abandonment of 1995 sparked by crowd trouble. Then on Sunday, England make the long trip to Brazil to sample the conditions and atmosphere ahead of next summer's carnival.

Player-wise, Steven Gerrard (shoulder), Andy Carroll (heel), Jack Wilshere (ankle), Tom Cleverley (calf) and Kyle Walker all miss out for England tonight. Ashley Cole, England's only consistent world-class player over the last decade, will captain his country against Ireland. Predictions:

England 2-0 Ireland
Brazil 1-3 England


Last edited by Duty281 on Fri May 31, 2013 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Adjusted prediction)

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Post by Thomond Wed May 29, 2013 8:59 pm

Wes Hoolahan playing for Ireland in what is kind of a meaningful game? Not until the last ten minutes if you're lucky.

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Post by Crimey Wed May 29, 2013 9:01 pm

Ben Foster is on for Joe Hart.
Phil Jones for Glen Johnson.

Think Phil Jones needs to find his strongest position and quickly, he's going to end up being too versatile for his own good. I don't think he's a right back, not sure whether he's a centre back or a midfielder though. Not good enough on the ball to be a central midfielder, not good enough at reading the game to be a central defender, hopefully Moyes will make a decision where to play him and let him get good at that position.


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Post by Thomond Wed May 29, 2013 9:02 pm

Crimey wrote:
Thomond wrote:England wouldn't have had a hope of beating France or any of the other sides, don't delude yourselves no lads! Zidane wasn't entirely carrying France, they had a solid team, and it was more than Zidane to it, although the man was playing superb stuff, as good as he had been. England were "close" but never had a shot.

They scraped past Portugal in the next round, I'm not saying that England were certain or even likely to win the World Cup, just that looking back they were closer than I realised. None of the sides stood out that year.


No side really stood out at the 2010 World Cup either, Spain were winning games but not too convincingly, if you were going on who played the best you could argue it was Holland who were favourites. In the majority of the more modern Era World Cups, there hasn't been a stand out side, that's part of winnign it, just doing enough to get the win and move on.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 9:03 pm

Thomond

so although you state that. You dont think england had a chance!!

even though they rarely lose in full time!

And its normally pens that kick us out??

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Post by Thomond Wed May 29, 2013 9:06 pm

Penalties are about a mentality, that the present England side have never had, there was no way that they should have drawn with Italy for example, could have beaten Portugal in 04/06, but Portugal could have easily beaten them. There's a difference between the likes of England and the French sides of the past and the German and Spanish sides now, England lacked that top 2 inches that gets you that little bit further

(I don't think it needs to be said that Ireland don't have it!)

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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed May 29, 2013 9:08 pm

Glenn Johnson had a terrible game tonight, glad to see the back of him.

Been a very tight game.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 9:11 pm

Thomond wrote:Penalties are about a mentality, that the present England side have never had, there was no way that they should have drawn with Italy for example, could have beaten Portugal in 04/06, but Portugal could have easily beaten them. There's a difference between the likes of England and the French sides of the past and the German and Spanish sides now, England lacked that top 2 inches that gets you that little bit further

(I don't think it needs to be said that Ireland don't have it!)


So your saying that although england got results there were lucky time after time after time again!

And yes your right Ireland are not a top side.. That truely doesnt need to be said!


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Post by Thomond Wed May 29, 2013 9:15 pm

It's not that they are lucky, if I was to compare them to a premier league team it would probably be Everton, always around the top 8 or so but one who will never push on unless things change drastically there (finances for Everton, playing structure/style for England)


Last year I did a piece for the journal, on how England can move forward and where they should go next. Give it a read and get back to me, if you think I'm blowing smoke. http://v2journal.com/england-where-next.html

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed May 29, 2013 9:22 pm

No Wessi so far Sad
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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 9:25 pm

I don't think your blowing smoke. I just know that over the years of being an England fan we have lost out on decisions that could go either way time and time again..

The past is the past. It hurts to much to reflect on it.

I check out the English talent all the time. I am a big fan of the age levels..

I think things are changing. And we have put a lot of ideas and money behind changing the outlook and the structures. Everton lack real Drive.. England don't..

It doesn't mean we will win anything In our lifetimes.. But it's a tough game international football. We don't need to expect it. We just want to compete and be proud of our game and system. And give it a few years or so and I think we will be.


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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed May 29, 2013 9:28 pm

Olly wrote:No Wessi so far Sad

Because he sucks

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Post by Thomond Wed May 29, 2013 9:32 pm

Things can change around in the span of 10 years in international football, Germany went from a shock horror in the Euro 2000, to finalists in Euro 2008, and serious contenders in Wc 2010 and Euro 2012 (ignoring World Cup 2002, if ever the phrase one-man team was apt it was for that Germany team and Ballack!)


I won't predtend to know a lot about English youth level football, I remember reading a few years ago that the structure was atrocious, and that their style was getting crucified by other teams.

They mightn't win anything but given the resources and population with a change in approach there is no reason why England shouldn't be at least competing seriously for major honours.


In Ireland, I can tell you that it's bleak, and our added problem is a population who doesn't give a shoite about our national league, an a Football Association who aren't doing enough to help it. I'm not exactly for Trap, there is a lot of talent he is ignoring and refusing to play (Hoolahan, why he persists with McGeady and Whelan ahead of the likes of Fahey, Meyler)

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed May 29, 2013 9:32 pm

Jeff Hendrick > Wes Hoolahan.

#headsgone
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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed May 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Hendrick is a lot better Olly.

This half England have been shocking, Ireland looked a lot better IMO. To many average players for England tonight.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed May 29, 2013 9:36 pm

This half has been pants. Dont think either keeper has made a save
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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 9:36 pm

"I won't predtend to know a lot about English youth level football, I remember reading a few years ago that the structure was atrocious, and that their style was getting crucified by other teams"

Rolling Eyes

Check out englands youth teams performances in recent years. add to that out our 21 team havent conceaded a goal in 10 games of football!! and have won the last 14!!!!

If you are going to post articles and have your strong stance . Youi really need to get your facts straight mate..

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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 9:39 pm

Ox should have finished that!!

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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed May 29, 2013 9:40 pm

What a miss.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed May 29, 2013 9:40 pm

And now Conor bloody Sammon ahead of Wes.

Wow. Just wow.
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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 9:42 pm

Millwall keeper having a good day for once!!

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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed May 29, 2013 9:44 pm

Have to say i have never been impressed with Forde, but he has had a great game tonight.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed May 29, 2013 9:45 pm

When will Trap ever learn that sitting back amd defending a draw / lead is the wrong thing to do. The guy is clueless.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 9:48 pm

Well done Ireland.. Good defensive effort and didn't look outclassed at all!


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Post by Thomond Wed May 29, 2013 9:49 pm

Tp be fair that article was written a year ago, the U-21s weren't looking that promising then, there is some talent in there, as for their other youth teams. The only way to gauge proper underage success is through repeated wins or runners up.

England's U-17 team won in 2010 (I'm assuming the majority of that team are playing U-21 showing that it is a good group). Are things improving certainly, in the last 5 years, England have won and finished runners up in consecutive years at U-17 level, their structures are showing results, but are they significantly different from what they were in the early 2000s (England came 3rd consecutively and then 4th)?

Have things really changed is the thing? At the moment, I don't think you can say that they have, in terms of pure results, style of play perhaps.

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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed May 29, 2013 9:50 pm

What a crap 2nd half.

Brazil are going to smash us on Sunday.

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Post by Duty281 Wed May 29, 2013 9:52 pm

Well that had a very end of season feel to it. England blustered without any real conviction. Ireland defended deeper and deeper as the game wore on. Crossing was very poor from England in particular. You can't say anyone from this game stood out really. A dull 1-1 draw.

Roll on Brazil, they might try and play football!

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Post by Thomond Wed May 29, 2013 9:52 pm

Seeing as we went into the game with a one goal lead we won right? Whistle

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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 9:53 pm

Thomond wrote:Tp be fair that article was written a year ago, the U-21s weren't looking that promising then, there is some talent in there, as for their other youth teams. The only way to gauge proper underage success is through repeated wins or runners up.

England's U-17 team won in 2010 (I'm assuming the majority of that team are playing U-21 showing that it is a good group). Are things improving certainly, in the last 5 years, England have won and finished runners up in consecutive years at U-17 level, their structures are showing results, but are they significantly different from what they were in the early 2000s (England came 3rd consecutively and then 4th)?

Have things really changed is the thing? At the moment, I don't think you can say that they have, in terms of pure results, style of play perhaps.

The problem is if these players are going to get first team football or bench warm at top clubs!!

But anyway. I talk about this all day long.. If Zaha is wasted next year I am gonna go nuts..

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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed May 29, 2013 9:54 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
Thomond wrote:Tp be fair that article was written a year ago, the U-21s weren't looking that promising then, there is some talent in there, as for their other youth teams. The only way to gauge proper underage success is through repeated wins or runners up.

England's U-17 team won in 2010 (I'm assuming the majority of that team are playing U-21 showing that it is a good group). Are things improving certainly, in the last 5 years, England have won and finished runners up in consecutive years at U-17 level, their structures are showing results, but are they significantly different from what they were in the early 2000s (England came 3rd consecutively and then 4th)?

Have things really changed is the thing? At the moment, I don't think you can say that they have, in terms of pure results, style of play perhaps.

The problem is if these players are going to get first team football or bench warm at top clubs!!

But anyway. I talk about this all day long.. If Zaha is wasted next year I am gonna go nuts..

Zaha sucks

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Post by Duty281 Wed May 29, 2013 9:54 pm

Crimey wrote:To clarify, I was joking when I said Wayne Bridge... Laugh

In hindsight the 2006 World Cup was probably our best recent chance to win the World Cup, no team stood out as great, Italy were quite good but a fairly poor France side nearly beat them in the final. England beat Portugal on penalties then they have to beat France who were being carried by Zidane and an Italy side that were strong defensively but poor going forward.

I never thought about that before.

We would have been missing Owen and Rooney for the rest of the tournament, as well as JT for the semi against France. I don't think winning the 2006 World Cup was ever realistic after Owen got injured, and because of Sven's odd selections. 2002 was our best recent chance I reckon, we were the only team in that tournament to truly test Brazil.

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Post by Duty281 Wed May 29, 2013 9:55 pm

Gary Lineker's just tweeted:

"Even though results haven't been great, felt tactically England were maturing, but this is a step back to the dark ages of 2 lines of 4."

Spot on. Very static by England today. clap

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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 9:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:Gary Lineker's just tweeted:

"Even though results haven't been great, felt tactically England were maturing, but this is a step back to the dark ages of 2 lines of 4."

Spot on. Very static by England today. clap


I am going to put it down to post season blues..

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed May 29, 2013 10:06 pm

I dunno what makes me sadder, the fact Conor Sammon played ahead of Wes Hoolahan, or the fact England couldn't beat a team that brought on Conor Sammon
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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 10:08 pm

A wave of realism just came over me


Roy Hodgson is Rubbish.!

He really is.. I hate the FA

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Post by Thomond Wed May 29, 2013 10:09 pm

To be fair to us, we actually played pretty decent football at times, England had their fair share of chances though and could easily have one, bar our goal, we didn't provide much of a goalscoring threat.

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Post by westisbest Wed May 29, 2013 10:30 pm

Decent result for us.
Certainly fired up.
Coleman rightfully MOM.
McCarthy/McGeady thought played well.
Great support as always.

Still look shabby at centre back.
Forde played well.

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Post by Duty281 Wed May 29, 2013 10:30 pm

mystiroakey wrote:A wave of realism just came over me


Roy Hodgson is Rubbish.!

He really is.. I hate the FA

Nonsense. Roy Hodgson was born with a purpose in life: To lead his country out of the wilderness and into the promised land. Only about 53 weeks till the World cup!

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Post by mystiroakey Wed May 29, 2013 10:37 pm

Shouldnt you get your ENGLAND TO GLORY THREAD up and running.

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Post by westisbest Wed May 29, 2013 10:41 pm

NickisBHAFC wrote:Hendrick is a lot better Olly.

This half England have been shocking, Ireland looked a lot better IMO. To many average players for England tonight.

Hendrick alot better than Hoolahan. No chance.

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Post by Crimey Wed May 29, 2013 10:53 pm

Such a flat game. None of the England players looked bothered.

Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain seems to have gone backwards over the past year, Wenger's odd choice to give him very little first team football has left him raw and without a refined finished product. A lot of flash and a lot of pace, but doesn't have a good enough pass, shot or cross in him. Needs more first team football if he is to be considered a genuine option for England.

Sturridge was unlucky to get injured, he was looking quite good, a much better option than Welbeck, probably better than Defoe these days as well if Sturridge can keep his scoring form up.

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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed May 29, 2013 10:54 pm

I was hoping Olly would bite mate! But fair play to him, he resisted!!!

I was shocked Hoolahan wasn't starting let aknown was an un-used sub!

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Post by dummy_half Thu May 30, 2013 10:45 am

I feel some of the cirticism of England is a bit harsh - Ireland produced one goal-scoring chance (and shouldn't have managed that if Glenn Johnson had just held the defensive line - needs lessons from Lee Dixon on that one), while we produced a string of decent opportunities. On another day we could easily have won 2 or 3-1.

We do have some issues though:
1 - Lack of a top quality centre forward. Sturridge and Defoe are both good finishers, but are weak in possession, so don't get too involved in the lead up, particularly with their back to goal.
2 - Quality of delivery from wide areas. Both Walcott and Ox had the beating of their fullbacks but rarely produce top quality crosses. Our fullbacks are at the moment better crossers than our wingers.
3 - Distribution from our defence (particularly the central defenders) into midfield is poor, and too often puts the man receiving the ball under pressure or leads to one of our central midfielders dropping very deep to take a square ball from the defenders.
4 - Movement off the ball. In part relates to #3, because one of our central midfielders is taking the ball so deep there is a lack of passing targets upfield, and so we end up looking static.

I see there has been a lot of criticism of Hodgson's choice of a notional 4-4-2 system, but to be fair what else was he going to pick in the absence of Gerrard, Wilshire and Cleverly?

If we want to compete with Brazil, we will have to play better, but the team that was picked is capable of doing that - just looked a bit like they were going through the motions last night.

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Post by Crimey Thu May 30, 2013 10:47 am

If I was Hodgson, I'd pull Rooney deeper and play a 4-3-3, I think it'd make the team more fluid and more attacking.

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Post by GSC Thu May 30, 2013 10:48 am

I think Roy and the FA accept its a long term job, and we're probably looking more at being competitive in 2016/18 than Brazil next summer.
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Post by Guest Thu May 30, 2013 10:56 am

We need a target man up front if Rooney is to continue playing so deep. I see no reason why Carroll could not do that for us. Can`t believe the tiredness excuse was used after 80 mins. Rooneys played one game in may, ox has been benched all year, along with Defoe. We knew about their shocking delivery. Everyone raves about Walcott this season but he can't cross consistently, same with Lennon. I thought the Ox was woeful last night. Yes, he shows willing and speed but the final execution is never there. I`ve never rated Cahill, mistakes or bad passes are just around the corner. Jags is solid but without rio`s passing ability they offer nothing coming forward.

I don't see how we are assured of qualification. Poland at home and Ukraine away are tough and the we face Montenegro again. I worry for us but in reality we are simply not good enough, embarrassing at times. Hodgson is in trouble and time is already running out. Brazil game will be interesting.....

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Post by Mat Thu May 30, 2013 11:21 am

Firstly, what a header by Longy. Though Roy should have known not to play Cahill, as Long has destroyed him every time he's played against him for Albion.

Not sure what Lineker was on about. I thought Rooney had a very free role in the line-up, it was hardly a gun barrell straight 4-4-2. Also, to be fair to Roy, I think he's mixed the formations around really well since he took over, from my memory, we haven't played 4-4-2 that often. I see a lot of the tabloids are up in arms over this, strange that they were singing Roy's praises when we beat Brazil...I'm just waiting for a mention of Harry Redknapp!

It's a shame that players will willingly play through the pain barrier for their club, but withdraw from the England squad with the slightest injury. We need Wilshere to be fully fit, which is as much Arsenal's doing as it is England's, Wenger has readily admitted he rushed Wilshere back but then complains when he is picked by England?!

And the most important thing is, we just aren't that good anymore. You only have to look at our centre back options to see that. Jagielka is a solid premier league defender, nothing more. Cahill is no more than that. I think Phil Jones is the future in that position but until he can tie down a place at United, he isn't realistically going to start every game for England. I like Caulker at Spurs but again he's got to get a regular run of games in the side first.

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Post by Duty281 Thu May 30, 2013 12:38 pm

I think Andy Carroll should be our first pick centre forward. He's developed really well this season, good with the ball at his feet or at his head. He can hold the ball up well, and he can finish as well. Carroll is also a nightmare for defenders to deal with just because of his sheer presence and size. He's a better finisher than Welbeck, and he can hold the ball up better than Defoe or Sturridge. I think our best team is probably this, developing into a 4-3-3 when on the ball:

http://footballformation.co.uk/team/created.php?f=114864

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Post by Crimey Thu May 30, 2013 1:21 pm

I think I'd rather see this:

Spoiler:

I'm a big fan of Carroll but I just don't think that England has the wingers to get the best out of him. While he's more than just a big, header of the ball, that his main strength and if we can't get the best out of him that way then I don't think there's any point using him.

I'm not a huge supporter of Sturridge but right now he's obviously the best option up front for England, Defoe is out of form and can't hold the ball up well enough, Welbeck doesn't score goals and has a dreadful first touch. Sturridge is in good form and isn't afraid to come deep or move out wide meaning we can have a more fluid attacking side.

Rooney is still the best option we have behind him, but I'm not convinced by him internationally at all. He hasn't had a good game for England in a long time, and definitely shouldn't be considered as undroppable as he has in the past.

Wingers wise I think Lennon and Walcott are the best options, they are the ones who perform best for the clubs. Young is dreadfully inconsistent, Milner doesn't have the pace or ability to beat his man, the Ox doesn't play enough football.

Gerrard and Wilshere should definitely be the first choice pair in midfield, Carrick for me doesn't have the ability to change the game like Gerrard does nor the influence in the middle. I know a lot rate him for United, but for England he has been remarkably average. Lampard is aging and doesn't warrant a spot in the middle anymore. Wilshere and Gerrard could dominate games. I'd expect Wilshere to be the box to box as Gerrard stays deep.

Full back wise, I think if Baines moves to United and continues playing as well, Cole will be dropped. I think that's the hardest position to pick who to play there, for good reasons. Cole hasn't done anything particularly bad to deserve to be dropped, but Baines has been playing well enough to be picked. Johnson is still a much better option than anybody else currently at right back. Micah Richards for me is the only one with the potential to oust him, but we'll have to wait and see what he does next year.

Hopefully Lescott will secure move away from City, preferably back to Everton, I think him and Jagielka would be the best partnership. They've played together before and are both good defenders. I am not convinced at all by Cahill, Caulker and Jones don't play enough at central defenders and Rio offers no future.

Hart in goal is no brainer.

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Post by GSC Thu May 30, 2013 9:14 pm

Games off as the Maracana is unsafe apparently
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Post by Duty281 Thu May 30, 2013 10:07 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22725420

Subject to review apparently after a court order. Will the World Cup still be hosted in Brazil? They've had near enough 6 years so far to prepare.

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