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Champions Trophy - England and Wales 2013

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jun 2013, 1:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

Jimmy ends up with 2 wickets for his troubles and Broad leads England with 3.

Its a funny game.
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Post by Marcus Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:36 pm

The only solution is to build a new team around Jade Dernbach.

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:54 pm

That really was a superb win for India. Just stopped myself from commenting during the 2nd innings till it was done. Just reliving the moments. Feeling very happy. At last, after coming unstuck after the 2011 world cup, after 18 months of significant suffering, Team India continues to go forward. First the test series win against the Australians, and now this. We all know they didn't reach England in the best possible backdrop. But they have won everything including the warm-ups. Well done to Captain Cool, he kept his side together and kept them protected. This really is Mahendra Singh Dhoni's team. Fine transformation as captain from MS. When the big guns were on top of their game, he gave them space to express themselves, ones they started fading he seemed a bit lost, but thanks to England again, the test series loss last year started a much needed transformation process, Dhoni took greater control of things, started rebuilding, became more assertive as well as demanding of his players, and led from the front.
Everything fitted in very well. India seem to have found a new ODI opening combination as well.

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:54 pm

All players contributed to India's win. Shikhar Dhawan has been superb, and although there will be greater test on his way, he does fill one with hope. I have been no fan of Rohit Sharma, but he has done just enough to earn for himself a chance for the next series on the back of performance, and believe me that doesn't happen too often. Hopefully this is a new start for Sharma. Kohli provided runs just when they mattered, Karthik scored a 50 against Lanka, Raina took some fine catches and bowled a few crucial overs, the skipper was brilliant behind the stumps and led the side well, Jadej was India's player of the tournament, Terrific with ball, very handy with the bat, and as always, fantastic in the field. R Ashwin has taken over the senior spinner's role very well, the 3 seamers, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Umesh Yadav and Ishant all chipped in at different points.

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 10:01 pm

As for England, they played to reach the finals. They had India under control for the 15 overs of their innings, and regardless of the late fightback from Kohli and Jadeja, they didn't let them get away. But they lost Cook early, Bell didn't get going, and Trott, who looked like he was in control was out to a fine stumping from Dhoni. Still they should have scored 20 of 16 with 6 wickets remaining. They had a collapse then, India too had one, but India had Kohli and Jade to save the situation, but England had none.
Still it was a good effort to reach the finals. James Anderson was a joy to watch with the ball, Jonathan Trott showed a greater range to his game, adapting to circumstances, batting a lot more positively, bating long,, and this whild remaining as consistent as ever. James Tredwell also had a very handy tournament. Ravi Bopara made a fine return to International cricket, and made an impact with bat and Ball. Young Joe Root showed different facets of his good game.
They lost the plot towards the end, but it was a well contested final, and well done England for that.

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Post by liverbnz Sun 23 Jun 2013, 10:02 pm

Well played India. Tournament's best side.

England, well Jesus! 19 to win of 16. Batsmen well set with 1 being Eoin Morgan. Talk about choking! Still, they played a solid CT overall and with KP back in for Bell the side will be a little more dynamic.

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Post by msp83 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 10:08 pm

But there are issues that England needs to look at . The middle order has proved that the high risk strategy of entrusting too much with them is likely to fail more often than not. Morgan couldn't quite finish the innings as he used to do, Buttler had a horrer tournament. The middle order, and even the team management were often saved by Bopara's timely hands. Good old KP is back from injury and is right back in form. He has to be back at the top along with Cook.
The other aspect that needws consideration is the selection. Selecting Bresnan ahead of Finn was funny to start with, and don't think there is a serious case to be made for the same. Bresnan goes for plenty at the death, isn't quite the wickettaking threat as Finn is and his batting hasn't really come off they England would have hoped it to. Even today, his overthrow that gave away 4 extra runs to the Indians might have made a difference, and he did go around a bit as well. Most of all, the batting part, that is one of the main reasons why he's there ahead of Finn, looked like a joke and he was like a rabit caught in the headlights.

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Post by JDizzle Sun 23 Jun 2013, 11:00 pm

I like Buttler. Sure he had a (very) bad tournament but he can play innings that no-one else can play in the England side. Worth perservering with. I still stand by the assertion that Prior will never be a good international ODI/T20 player.

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Post by JDizzle Sun 23 Jun 2013, 11:01 pm

And Morgan needs to go away and work out how he is going to adapt to this new line teams have got for him.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 23 Jun 2013, 11:06 pm

Prior's an interesting one. You'd think he would be perfect in ODI's, but his career has never really taken off.

Buttler and Morgan both need to learn lessons from this tournament, go away and become better players for it. Buttler has a great talent, he needs to develop it
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Post by JDizzle Sun 23 Jun 2013, 11:15 pm

Meh. Prior's pretty limited with his scoring shots. Just bowl straight at him and he'll really struggle. Struggled even against the bowling in the Big Bash never mind international level.

I do rate Buttler. He's the sort of guy that would benefit from playing in the IPL, no immediate Test prospects and helps him improve his limited overs game.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 23 Jun 2013, 11:19 pm

There can be no denial of Buttler's talent, it's just we need to see it on a more consistent basis. One thing he did impress me with this tournament was his actual wicket keeping, which was pretty good for someone who doesn't keep for his county
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Post by NickisBHAFC Sun 23 Jun 2013, 11:35 pm

Prior should of 100% been in for Buttler. No doubt.

But there's no point going through the what might have beens. We had a superb tournament and lost to the best side in the contest. Im happy.

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Post by chrisss Mon 24 Jun 2013, 1:39 am

NickisBHAFC wrote:Prior should of 100% been in for Buttler. No doubt.

But there's no point going through the what might have beens. We had a superb tournament and lost to the best side in the contest. Im happy.

And you're not biased at all are you? Prior has failed in ODIs time and time again. What's he done in the last 2 years since he last played to improve as a one day player?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 24 Jun 2013, 7:58 am

Apparantly the Aussies have sacked Mickey Arthur Erm
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Post by KP_fan Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:02 am

Cook was understandably despondent after a defeat that he identified as his lowest moment in two years as England captain. "We had high hopes coming in today of achieving something special," he said. "It's a tough place to be at the moment but we will look at it when the emotion's out of it and we'll build again for 2015, the next global tournament."

Well Cook was despondent...and rightly so...and althouhg he talks about the 2015 worldcup.....one feels Eng's bes opportunity for winning a 50 over cup slipped from his fingers last night.

Bowling conditions were suited for English attack...and because of such bowling friendly conditions...traditional technically correct inning building type batters like Cook, Bell and Trott....could be fitted in the 11 and make their mark.

In 2015 in Australia.......hit the deck hard type bowlers would be required....like 3 or Finns / Steyn / Ishant Sharma types.

and more powerful on the rise hitters will be needed.......so this English compsition will find it hard to be as competitive in the 2015 world cup
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Post by alfie Mon 24 Jun 2013, 12:34 pm

Yeah maybe...a good chance missed : but the folly of generalizing about prospects for competitions in other places is best shown by India's win yesterday...who would have thought the Indian team that couldn't win a match in any form of the game on its last visit to England only a couple of years ago would thrive in early summer English conditions ?

2015 is a way off yet...we will see what England can do when it comes around. I am sure the selectors will be taking likely conditions into account.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 24 Jun 2013, 12:40 pm

I wouldn't say England would be at a disadvantage with it being in Australia. If it was a sub-continent competition, then maybe, but Aussie conditions are probably to our suiting
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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 24 Jun 2013, 7:42 pm

Excellent acheivement from the boys!! YahooYahooYahooYahooYahooYahoo

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 24 Jun 2013, 7:43 pm

well done india. Amazing effort.

Saw that final 20 overs in a pub in spain.. Not the best way to end my holiday.

That was poor from every English batter..

Mogs and bop looked so good then got out and it was game over!!!

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 24 Jun 2013, 7:45 pm

msp83 wrote:That really was a superb win for India. Just stopped myself from commenting during the 2nd innings till it was done. Just reliving the moments. Feeling very happy. At last, after coming unstuck after the 2011 world cup, after 18 months of significant suffering, Team India continues to go forward. First the test series win against the Australians, and now this. We all know they didn't reach England in the best possible backdrop. But they have won everything including the warm-ups. Well done to Captain Cool, he kept his side together and kept them protected. This really is Mahendra Singh Dhoni's team. Fine transformation as captain from MS. When the big guns were on top of their game, he gave them space to express themselves, ones they started fading he seemed a bit lost, but thanks to England again, the test series loss last year started a much needed transformation process, Dhoni took greater control of things, started rebuilding, became more assertive as well as demanding of his players, and led from the front.
Everything fitted in very well. India seem to have found a new ODI opening combination as well.
Indeed. Great acheivement. Short of words to express my delight. What an amazing acheivement it has been, especially considering the backdrop.

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Post by msp83 Mon 24 Jun 2013, 7:51 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:Excellent acheivement from the boys!! YahooYahooYahooYahooYahooYahoo
Shanky you should be happy Rohit wasn't a Nohit in this tournament? No turning myself a member of the Rohit Fan Club, have seen a lot of him and so its not yet time to trust him, but good signs, his best series or tournament after the West Indies series in 2011. Perhaps after all the frustration Rohit might have found a way back from the trenches of self-destruction

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 24 Jun 2013, 8:00 pm

msp83 wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:Excellent acheivement from the boys!! YahooYahooYahooYahooYahooYahoo
Shanky you should be happy Rohit wasn't a Nohit in this tournament? No turning myself a member of the Rohit Fan Club, have seen a lot of him and so its not yet time to trust him, but good signs, his best series or tournament after the West Indies series in 2011. Perhaps after all the frustration Rohit might have found a way back from the trenches of self-destruction
Oh, I am not getting excited just as yet. Will wait for a bit more consistency. Failed in the knock out matches, so not getting excited just as yet but he does seem more comfortable and a lot less nervous than he does in the middle order, where he has the run rate pressure. As an opener, he can just go out and express himself freely. So I guess that helps.

I'd still like to see Pujara in the team though at some point this year, toss up between Rohit, Karthik and Raina for 2 slots. Another issue that needs sorting out is the death bowling. Apart from that, the team looks well oiled and ready for the 2015 World Cup.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 24 Jun 2013, 8:26 pm

mystiroakey wrote:well done india. Amazing effort.

Saw that final 20 overs in a pub in spain.. Not the best way to end my holiday.

That was poor from every English batter..

Mogs and bop looked so good then got out and it was game over!!!

Buttler was playing down the wrong street!
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Post by msp83 Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:00 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:
msp83 wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:Excellent acheivement from the boys!! YahooYahooYahooYahooYahooYahoo
Shanky you should be happy Rohit wasn't a Nohit in this tournament? No turning myself a member of the Rohit Fan Club, have seen a lot of him and so its not yet time to trust him, but good signs, his best series or tournament after the West Indies series in 2011. Perhaps after all the frustration Rohit might have found a way back from the trenches of self-destruction
Oh, I am not getting excited just as yet. Will wait for a bit more consistency. Failed in the knock out matches, so not getting excited just as yet but he does seem more comfortable and a lot less nervous than he does in the middle order, where he has the run rate pressure. As an opener, he can just go out and express himself freely. So I guess that helps.

I'd still like to see Pujara in the team though at some point this year, toss up between Rohit, Karthik and Raina for 2 slots. Another issue that needs sorting out is the death bowling. Apart from that, the team looks well oiled and ready for the 2015 World Cup.
Pujara is looked up on as a bit of a test specialist for now. But he certainly has the game to be successful at the ODI level, and like you said, he could be a very handy option along with Dhawan up the order. But for now, Sharma has earned his chance.
The Tri nation tournament is not really important, the original test series between Lanka and the WI would have been more exciting and the Indians would have got a little bit of rest. But its a chance for Rohit Sharma to show he can sustain a decent run of performances, beyond a tournament or a series.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:37 pm

Yep. If Rohit can cement his place, I'd have Pujara at 3 with Kohli at 4 and a toss up at 5 b/w Karthik and Raina.

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Post by Gerry SA Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:40 pm

If Pujara was gonna play he'd have to open with Dhawan. 

Kohli's record at 3 is fantastic.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:49 pm

He played at 4 in the World Cup. Don't see a huge problem tbh. He's a class act, can adapt.

Or maybe just bat Pujara at 4.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:02 pm

India get this game better than any other. And they were deserved winners. England clearly still don't

I dont think they have more quality than us english or even SA(deffo on par), however they are true champions in this format..

Anyway on to the tests - THE ASHES- the true format....Wink

Root is gonna open:D

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Post by Gerry SA Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:03 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:He played at 4 in the World Cup. Don't see a huge problem tbh. He's a class act, can adapt.

Or maybe just bat Pujara at 4.
Agreed he batted 4 in the World Cup 

But that was the first time in 18 months that Tendulkar Sehwag and Gambhir where all made available for the ODI side. 

I think if Pujara got into the side, due to his technical ability should open. Rohit at 4, then probably Dinesh gets dropped.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:03 pm

mystiroakey wrote:India get this game better than any other. And they were deserved winners. England clearly still don't

I dont think they have more quality than us english or even SA(deffo on par), however they are true champions in this format..

Anyway on to the tests - THE ASHES- the true format....Wink

Root is gonna open:D

Can't wait! Bring on those Aussies! 3-0 to England!

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Post by KP_fan Tue 25 Jun 2013, 8:11 am

There are 2 slots still not settled in thsi Indian team......Rohit will continue to be under the scanner.....but he has the backing of the capatin so his rope will be very long......and while Rohit is opening....Vijay remains out of the palying 11
 
karthik's spot in the playing 11 is most likely to be challnaged by Rahane, Pujara and Tiwary.

Raina is a veteran and ain't going anywhere.
 
It was weird that Puajara wasn't included in the CT squad of 15
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Post by msp83 Tue 25 Jun 2013, 1:06 pm

KP_fan wrote:There are 2 slots still not settled in thsi Indian team......Rohit will continue to be under the scanner.....but he has the backing of the capatin so his rope will be very long......and while Rohit is opening....Vijay remains out of the palying 11
 
karthik's spot in the playing 11 is most likely to be challnaged by Rahane, Pujara and Tiwary.

Raina is a veteran and ain't going anywhere.
 
It was weird that Puajara wasn't included in the CT squad of 15
Yeah, Rohit by no means has his position nailed down. And I would prefer Pujara as the first choice alternative for him if he failes to kick on from here at the opening position. I would keep Kohli in at 3, and will have Rohit at 4 if Dinesh Karthik doesn't produce consistent performances.
As for Pujara, the selectors clearly wanted him to go to South Africa with the A team and get used to the conditions, they look up to him as the side's prime batsman in the year end test series. He also has a troubled knee, and perhaps the management wouldn't want to expose him to too much cricket before the important test series. In fact after the South Africa series, India have a few more challenging away assignments that include test series in New Zealand and England.

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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 25 Jun 2013, 9:13 pm

Raina averages 27 outside the subcontinent, so not a certainty for me.

Rohit is a proven middle order failure. If he plays, he has to open. I don't see a problem with Kohli or Pujara batting at 4.

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Post by msp83 Wed 26 Jun 2013, 11:30 am

If Rohit nails the opening position for himself, and if Karthik doesn't, and if Pujara has to come in as the replacement, then I would move Kohli down to 4 and bat Pujara at 3. Pujara has shown he can adapt, but Kohli could be more successful in effecting major tempo shifts. So Cheteshwar at 3 and Virat at 4.
But I would give Karthik and Rohit a couple more series to get going, Karthik is a sharp runner between the wicket, and a pretty decent fielder. Rohit has also improved his fielding, and for the first time in India's cricket history, they managed to put together a class fielding outfit.

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Post by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Jun 2013, 9:30 pm

What about Raina? His record outside Asia is poor and the WC is in Aus. I'd be tempted to pick Karthik ahead of him.

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Post by msp83 Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:36 am

ShankyCricket wrote:What about Raina? His record outside Asia is poor and the WC is in Aus. I'd be tempted to pick Karthik ahead of him.
Think I'll stick with Raina. He comes in the middle order, he won't have to deal with a great deal of movement. If the top order get their act together Raina would be expected to play the role of the power hitter, a role that I think he's more suited to, than Karthik is. And Karthik is yet to really prove himself.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 27 Jun 2013, 1:35 pm

It is pointless talking about Raina....because he is captain's favourite and while Dhoni is there Raina ain't going anywhere.

Raina had a great series vs. pak in ODis........and given that raina bats in difficult situation only averages are no a reflection of his abilities.

Raina is an unmovable parameter in the current XI

The movabale parameters in the current XI:

1) Karthik
2) Rohit....semi-movable.....Dhoni ain't letting him go easily

--and standing in the queue as repalcement are Vijay, Rahane, Pujara and Tiwary ( when fit).....not necessarily in any order........a lot depends on selectors and some rest / rotation policy adopted in WI and Zim

--From the seamers.......there will be rotation and we will see Samy ahemd and Vinay Kumar get games also.

--since there is a lot of games coming up in WI and then Zim we might see Mishra also get some games as a spinner
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Post by msp83 Thu 27 Jun 2013, 7:58 pm

KP_fan wrote:It is pointless talking about Raina....because he is captain's favourite and while Dhoni is there Raina ain't going anywhere.

Raina had a great series vs. pak in ODis........and given that raina bats in difficult situation only averages are no a reflection of his abilities.

Raina is an unmovable parameter in the current XI

The movabale parameters in the current XI:

1) Karthik
2) Rohit....semi-movable.....Dhoni ain't letting him go easily

--and standing in the queue as repalcement are Vijay, Rahane, Pujara and Tiwary ( when fit).....not necessarily in any order........a lot depends on selectors and some rest / rotation policy adopted in WI and Zim

--From the seamers.......there will be rotation and we will see Samy ahemd and Vinay Kumar get games also.

--since there is a lot of games coming up in WI and then Zim we might see Mishra also get some games as a spinner
Many of us may not rate Raina the test player, but I don't think his ODI credentials can be easily challenged, and I don't think the captain is backing him without reasons. Think young Shami Ahmed should get some game time in the West Indies and Zimbabwe. Could be a very handy option. The likes of Wasim Akram were really impressed by the young man, he has a pretty decent first classs record, and in the limited opportunities he got with Team India, he did look like a good potential. Umesh Yadav, that rare creature in Indian cricket, a proper fast bowler, should be protected more for tests, and his limited overs engagements should be limited. No need to have him playing all the games in such a context less series like the upcoming West Indies tournament. Not saying he should be completely kept away, but the likes of Shami can come in for him from time to time, gain more experience, and develop his game. Vinay Kumar is not going to be a class act in tests, he has the experience and a few tricks that could make him a handy reserve in ODIs, so some game time for him won't be a bad idea either. As R Ashwin has clearly established himself as India's led spinner in all formats, he has to be fit and ready for a lot of cricket, so keeping him fresh, with Amit Mishra as the first reserve could also benefit the side.

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Post by msp83 Thu 27 Jun 2013, 7:59 pm

Irfan Pathan is injured, otherwise he could give Ravindra Jadeja some time off now and then in the all-rounder position, with Mishra coming in for one of the other seamers.

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Post by ShankyCricket Sat 29 Jun 2013, 6:02 am

msp83 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:It is pointless talking about Raina....because he is captain's favourite and while Dhoni is there Raina ain't going anywhere.

Raina had a great series vs. pak in ODis........and given that raina bats in difficult situation only averages are no a reflection of his abilities.

Raina is an unmovable parameter in the current XI

The movabale parameters in the current XI:

1) Karthik
2) Rohit....semi-movable.....Dhoni ain't letting him go easily

--and standing in the queue as repalcement are Vijay, Rahane, Pujara and Tiwary ( when fit).....not necessarily in any order........a lot depends on selectors and some rest / rotation policy adopted in WI and Zim

--From the seamers.......there will be rotation and we will see Samy ahemd and Vinay Kumar get games also.

--since there is a lot of games coming up in WI and then Zim we might see Mishra also get some games as a spinner
Many of us may not rate Raina the test player, but I don't think his ODI credentials can be easily challenged, and I don't think the captain is backing him without reasons. Think young Shami Ahmed should get some game time in the West Indies and Zimbabwe. Could be a very handy option. The likes of Wasim Akram were really impressed by the young man, he has a pretty decent first classs record, and in the limited opportunities he got with Team India, he did look like a good potential. Umesh Yadav, that rare creature in Indian  cricket, a proper fast bowler, should be protected more for tests, and his limited overs engagements should be limited. No need to have him playing all the games in such a context less series like the upcoming West Indies tournament. Not saying he should be completely kept away, but the likes of Shami can come in for him from time to time, gain more experience, and develop his game. Vinay Kumar is not going to be a class act in tests, he has the experience and a few tricks that could make him a handy reserve in ODIs, so some game time for him won't be a bad idea either. As R Ashwin has clearly established himself as India's led spinner in all formats, he has to be fit and ready for a lot of cricket, so keeping him fresh, with Amit Mishra as the first reserve could also benefit the side.

Well, he averages 27 outside the subcontinent. I take the point that at his batting position, averages may not always be true reflection of one's abilities, but you still expect better figures from a specialist batsman (he's not in the side as an allrounder, unlike say, Jadeja). I'm not saying he should be dropped now either. Pujara is not a part of the squad for this series, so obviously the same batting lineup that won the CT should feature in this tri series. All I'm saying is that his place in the side shouldn't be set in stone and if he doesn't do well in the next couple of series and Rohit and Karthik do well, then Pujara should come in for Raina (with a shuffle in the batting order), not either of those 2.

Hope that makes sense.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 29 Jun 2013, 10:14 am

shanky wrote:Well, he averages 27 outside the subcontinent. I take the point that at his batting position, averages may not always be true reflection of one's abilities, but you still expect better figures from a specialist batsman (he's not in the side as an allrounder, unlike say, Jadeja). I'm not saying he should be dropped now either. Pujara is not a part of the squad for this series, so obviously the same batting lineup that won the CT should feature in this tri series. All I'm saying is that his place in the side shouldn't be set in stone and if he doesn't do well in the next couple of series and Rohit and Karthik do well, then Pujara should come in for Raina (with a shuffle in the batting order), not either of those 2.

Hope that makes sense.

yes it makes sense...that Raina should not be consdiered indispensable....given a long rope and repalcemets planned if he doesn't deliver.
However My point was that captain of Indian team treats Raina as untouchable
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Post by KP_fan Sun 30 Jun 2013, 1:10 pm

CT oficially scraped...so Indian holds this trophy forever.

Test championship replaces CT...and T20 world cup turned into a 4 yearly event...which makes sense.

I don't see the point of test championship which will undermine the rankings earned by hard work over years...
if for exaple 4th ranked side beats the top ranked side in a semi

Test rankings onyl top determine the best in the world was the better was ....like the seedings in tennis....how many weeks you hold on to the No. 1 ranking determines the depth of your achievement
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