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Most significant NH result in 4 decades?

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 3:50 pm

I ask the question because a SH side has seldom been so badly beaten by a NH in a meaningful Test since the Invincibles did the job in SA in the 70s. Yes, England won the WC in 2003 and all four nations have had their moments against the three major SH nations over the past four decades, but not since Willie John's boys has such a comprehensive drubbing been meted out to an apparently competitive team from the South in a fixture that really mattered.

I trust that this result will inspire all 4 sides to believe that they are capable of anything to which they put their minds and talents. It was marvellous to see the fundamentals of rugby be rewarded with success today. The scrum matters, and long may it remain so. To the coaching staff and the entire squad should go a huge number of plaudits - they have breathed new life into a great concept, which should remain a fact of rugby life as long as the game is played.

As a 40-something fan, who first listened to a Lions game at the age of 5 back in '71, I'm not ashamed to say that I shed a bit of a tear today. An awe-inspiring performance by the best of our islands from 1-23, which might have repercussions in the rugby world for the next few years. I hope that every rugby follower from these small bits of rock enjoyed it, took pride in it and will go into the new season with massive optimism.

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Post by wrfc1980 on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 4:21 pm

England v south Africa. England beat as by over 50 points in 2003

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Post by samuraidragon on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 4:22 pm

The game was quite a bit closer than the scoreline suggests, a real nail-biter until the moment Sexton went over.  Australia have some great players. Genia, of course, Beale is astonishing, this guy Mogg who came on absolutely oozed class. A  super game, after the  dire stuff served up in the 2nd test. Great to see the adventure of the Lions in the final 20, and that is what won it.  A huge , gritty effort with some great touches by the Lions out wide.




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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 4:35 pm

England beating SA by 50 was a bigger win on the scoreboard but nowhere else. SA were down to 14 for most of the game and the game itself had nothing riding on it in the autumn before the World Cup.

In this match, Australia were in it for 5 minutes before half-time and about the same after it. I don't really believe that 19-16 after 45 minutes was a true reflection of the pattern of play up to that point. There seemed to be a general feeling among those with whom I watched it that the Lions had switched off and had been made to pay for it. Their re-focused effort was something extraordinary, for which the captain and senior players deserve the utmost credit.

A good side (which won't get a drubbing like that throughout the SH tournament, I wouldn't think) was destroyed up front, surprisingly outskilled in the backs and ultimately demoralised to the point that they were walking to the set pieces by the finish. There are a lot of good young players in the NH and I hope that this will be the inspiration that they need to realise that the Southern Hemisphere nations are as vulnerable as any other side if the requisite effort is applied.

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Post by John Cregan on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 4:45 pm

Lions not important in the grand scheme of things IMO. A bit like the Ryder Cup in Golf, a great spectacle, a novelty, but when the history books are written, it's all about club and country for me.............................

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Post by DeludedOptimistorjustDave on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 4:47 pm

Dream on nothing has topped 03, i would go as far as saying that 03 is the most significant of the last 50 years.

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Post by RDSguru on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 4:49 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:There are a lot of good young players in the NH and I hope that this will be the inspiration that they need to realise that the Southern Hemisphere nations are as vulnerable as any other side if the requisite effort is applied.

In fairness to Eng, Sco and Ire I think recent(ish) results show these 3 teams have that inspiration already. Wales will be the main beneficiary of this series, while obviously not single handedly, I do think they have knocked that monkey off their back!

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Post by mawhis on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 4:56 pm

John Cregan wrote:Lions not important in the grand scheme of things IMO. A bit like the Ryder Cup in Golf, a great spectacle, a novelty, but when the history books are written, it's all about club and country for me.............................

This.

You also have to factor in the fact that the aussies had a lengthy injury list, and were the better team (in my opinion) in the first 2 tests. The number of Australian players injured in the first test alone was ridiculous - I can't remember the last time I saw 2 players stretchered off in the same game. If Leali'ifano had lasted through the first test to take the kicks at goal, the aussies would have already have won the series in the first 2 tests.

It was certainly a good result, but there was a fair amount of luck involved. Full strength NZ or SA teams, (or even a full strength aussie team) won't be nearly as easy.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 5:01 pm

Clearly, the case for 2003 is a strong one, but the upshot of it was a big zero as far as NH rugby was concerned. England turned to rubble overnight, the NH sides got shoed home and away for the most part by their southern counterparts over the next few years and the Lions suffered one of their worst hammerings in the the 2005 tour to New Zealand. In retrospect, the wider significance of that great RWC victory was lost almost in the instant that the game itself was actually won.

As I say (and this is what lies behind the question mark in my title to the thread), it is possible that the whole of rugby in these islands will be charged by what happened today. The 74 Lions confirmed NH rugby as at least a match for the south during that generation - it would be nice to think that this win will not just be a single, isolated chapter, but the start of something really rather important.

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Post by winchester on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 5:33 pm

I dont think so. 2003 was a greater acheivement. Some perspective is needed. This was a very average side by SH standards over the years. The result was important for the Lions brand as another failure and likely decade of not winning a series combined with the fallout from a heavily Welsh picked team and BODgate could have torn the brand apart. The NH for the most part have not been all that uncompatitve against the SH. They win some, lose more. I dont expect that to change as this Australia team wont sink any lower than today. If anything there will be a backlash there.

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Post by Brendan on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 5:48 pm

I think it was 2002 when england beat all the SH teams home and away. (If not i know they did do it leading up to 2003).

That was bigger at it is really the only time that a NH team has been the top team for more then 2/3 games.

The fact that England fell apart after that (and many said that the world cup was a year to late for Engald) is irrelevent.

2009 when ireland went unbeaten did more to help the us beat the SH then anything else in the last while.

The year that the SH teams dont beat any of the top 3/4 teams of the 6N in the AIs and at least the top two of the 6N wins their summer series we will still be waiting for a year that helped the NH be =/> the SH

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Post by GavinDragon on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 5:54 pm

Brendan wrote:I think it was 2002 when england beat all the SH teams home and away. (If not i know they did do it leading up to 2003).

That was bigger at it is really the only time that a NH team has been the top team for more then 2/3 games.

The fact that England fell apart after that (and many said that the world cup was a year to late for Engald) is irrelevent.

2009 when ireland went unbeaten did more to help the us beat the SH then anything else in the last while.

The year that the SH teams dont beat any of the top 3/4 teams of the 6N in the AIs and at least the top two of the 6N wins their summer series we will still be waiting for a year that helped the NH be =/> the SH

agreed and we are a fair way from that yet!

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Post by Brendan on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 5:56 pm

I would also say that Argentina's results in 2007 WC was probably the last big set of results for the NH v SH

One offs cant count or else it would be Aus v Scotland or England v NZ or France v Aus ( where a dominante pack put a large score on a better Aus team)

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Post by Brendan on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:03 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
Brendan wrote:I think it was 2002 when england beat all the SH teams home and away. (If not i know they did do it leading up to 2003).

That was bigger at it is really the only time that a NH team has been the top team for more then 2/3 games.

The fact that England fell apart after that (and many said that the world cup was a year to late for Engald) is irrelevent.

2009 when ireland went unbeaten did more to help the us beat the SH then anything else in the last while.

The year that the SH teams dont beat any of the top 3/4 teams of the 6N in the AIs and at least the top two of the 6N wins their summer series we will still be waiting for a year that helped the NH be =/> the SH

agreed and we are a fair way from that yet!

I am trying to think the last time a 6N side won a series v the big three away from home.  Or when any of the won a game in a series and was close in the other two. Or before series when they won more then half the games in the summer v the big 3.

Last year Ire, Eng, and Wales had 1 draw, 4/5 close games and 3/4 where we were killed. Not good enough.

If the SH teams dont win more then half their games away from home in the AIs they get upset at their team.  We need to be like that.

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Post by MrsP on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:06 pm

I haven't seen today's game but are you not in serious danger of losing the run of yourselves here.

A team which had the whole of the UK and Ireland to choose from came within an Aussie slip of losing a series against the weakest SH team we have seen in a Lions year for quite some time. We should have been putting scores like this on the board in all three tests.

I'm not sure the SH teams will be quaking just yet.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:14 pm

This Oz team is not much weaker than the one that England squeaked by in the final of 03. What this Lions team has is the potential, through the youth of its four constituent parts, to start redressing a little of the balance, particularly away from home, against Southern Hemisphere sides.

At the moment, none of the SH sides look the equal of their great sides of the past - there is clearly an opportunity for each of the 4 nations to mount a proper challenge across the board. If this series, and the third test in particular, is a catalyst for instilling the belief that this can be achieved, then we may be able to view it, in years to come, as one of the truly significant victories in NH history.

PS Prepared to bet that the Wallabies finish higher than third in the forthcoming SH series (of which Argentina is a part, of course).

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Post by Shifty on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:17 pm

It's massive from a Welsh point of view because so many of our players were involved and they can now look at each other and realise so many of them have been in a team that has won a test series down under.

The psychological barrier should of been shattered for the Welsh now. I also think the other English, Irish and Scottish might be a bit scared of them now or at least have a whole new respect for them.
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Post by Notch on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:18 pm

I've only watched the first 20 minutes so far (though I know the full-time score) but I think it is mainly because it will be mythologised and ensure that the Lions continues on for another generation.
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Post by Brendan on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:22 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:This Oz team is not much weaker than the one that England squeaked by in the final of 03. What this Lions team has is the potential, through the youth of its four constituent parts, to start redressing a little of the balance, particularly away from home, against Southern Hemisphere sides.

At the moment, none of the SH sides look the equal of their great sides of the past - there is clearly an opportunity for each of the 4 nations to mount a proper challenge across the board. If this series, and the third test in particular, is a catalyst for instilling the belief that this can be achieved, then we may be able to view it, in years to come, as one of the truly significant victories in NH history.

PS Prepared to bet that the Wallabies finish higher than third in the forthcoming SH series (of which Argentina is a part, of course).

Do you think that they will finish higher then a SA team that beat a more or less full strenght Scotland (yes they came close but that was more from SA not being focused) and Italy or NZ who schooled a strong French team.
Each of the 6N teams named above held their own in the 6 nations and but for a score either way could have won more games.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:25 pm

I'd certainly expect them to finish ahead of SA, who to my eye, are poorly selected and lacking in more areas than the Wallabies. Haven't seen the exact fixture list, but wouldn't put it past them to take a Test off the Blacks at home, although think that Oz might struggle away against a full-strength Puma pack.

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Post by Brendan on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:26 pm

Shifty wrote:It's massive from a Welsh point of view because so many of our players were involved and they can now look at each other and realise so many of them have been in a team that has won a test series down under.  

The psychological barrier should of been shattered for the Welsh now.  I also think the other English, Irish and Scottish might be a bit scared of them now or at least have a whole new respect for them.  

See i think this is alot like the club/regions with and without their extra players from overseas. With them they look great and they give that extra belief, but if not there they dont do as well.

Wales have to win against one of the 3 big teams in the AIs or it will be 1 step forward 2 steps back

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Post by Biltong on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:27 pm

Most significant results for the NH against SH in the last 4 decades

France 24-19 New Zealand on 14 July 1979 in Auckland
France 28-19 Australia on 30 June 1990 in Sydney
France 18-17 South Africa on 3 July 1993 in JHB
England 32-15 South Africa on 4 June 1994 in Pretoria
France 22-8 New Zealand on 26 June 1994 in Christchurch
France 23-20 New Zealand on 3 July 1994 in Auckland
England 27-22 South Africa on 24 June 2000 in Bloemfontein
France 32-23 South Africa on 16 June 2001 in JHB
England 15-13 New Zealand on 14 June 2003 in Wellington
England 25-14 Australia on 21 June 2003 in Melbourne
England 20-17 Australia on 22 November 2003 in Sydney
France 36-26 South Frica on 24 June 2006 in Capetown
France 27-22 New Zealand on 13 June 2009 in Duneden
England 21-20 Australia on 19 June 2010 in Sydney
Scotland 9-6 Australia on 5 June 2012 in Newcastle

By winning away from home is how the NH will build belief.
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Post by Taffineastbourne on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 6:39 pm

I reckon that the game versus NZ when Andy Haden dived out of the line out was major.If Wales had got the result that they deserved who knows how history might have panned out!

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 8:09 pm

You talk about a watershed result bringing in an era when Northern teams start regularly beat Southern teams, and point out that England's World Cup win was followed by a string of losses.

That's a bit back to front. It's because England started beating the Big 3 regularly that they built the confidence to take the title in 2003. England didn't lose to Southern opposition again, home or away, after sharing the series in South Africa in 2000. That was a watershed moment for us.

If England hadn't won in 2003, you can be certain that any success the North does enjoy against the South from now would be greeted with the taunt that we still weren't good enough to win the World Cup. That's one reason why 2003 will always be significant for the North.

It's also worth pointing out that series wins over New Zealand and South Africa in '71, and '74, didn't do anything for the record of individual nations against those two teams. The Lions might just not be the best catalyst.

If the North does begin to develop a more broadly successful record against the south, then it will more likely be because we start to get an edge in coaching, combined with a rich seam of young talent.

In the South, they will have their own explanations should the balance start to tip. Australia will blame the rules, saying that matches are just not entertaining enough to compete with their three other football codes. South Africa will blame the talent drain to the North and the unsatisfactory nature of SANZAR agreements. New Zealand will bemoan the lack of money in their domestic game.

I doubt they will see a Lions tour in Australia as any kind of turning point.


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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 8:14 pm

Points well made rf, although worth pointing out that England went to both SA and NZ in 72 and 73 and won. Who knows whether confidence from the Lions and the Barbarians results had something to do with that? Ireland drew with NZ in 72-73 (best ever result) as well, so it may be a little more than coincidence. As I say, I'm not sure.

I accept what you say about England from 2000-2003. Perhaps that Bloemfontein win should be invested with a bit more significance in retrospect.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 8:37 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:Points well made rf, although worth pointing out that England went to both SA and NZ in 72 and 73 and won.
It's hard to convince people who associate England exclusively with white orcs, that sometimes we were known for our backs. It's just that the Welsh boys were even better in those years.

Before the professional era, England always seemed to nick occasional wins against the South, even when their Five Nations performances were not especially dominant. That makes it even more puzzling that Wales could never break their duck against New Zealand while they were so rampant for the Lions.

I posted this link before, it's an article by Gareth Edwards:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/3490258/Failing-to-beat-the-New-Zealand-All-Blacks-with-Wales-still-plays-on-my-mind-Rugby-Union.html

I really do hope Warburton, North or Halfpenny never find themselves with the same sentiments.

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Post by fa0019 on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 10:40 pm

Amazing result... Blew the door down, blew the country down. I doubted they could do it... But they did so in some style.

Gatland has ice in his veins... What a gamble and what a payoff.

Best in 40 years.... I think 97 was marginally better... Only because this is AUS we're talking about. Susceptible in the front, not bad but SA have only ever lost 3 home series in their entire existent, 2 to the lions, 1 to NZ. SA were world champions at the time and beat the living day lights out of us for 3 matches.. Yet tackling by Gibbs and Rodber somehow kept us in it with a little bit of Genius from Dawson, Jenks and grit from Jonno.

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Post by fa0019 on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 10:42 pm

France beating NZ in NZ in 94 was also not to be sniffed at.. Did what the lions couldn't a year earlier.... A little bit in transition post fox, per merthens but still NZ and NZ never have bad sides.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 10:48 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:I'd certainly expect them to finish ahead of SA, who to my eye, are poorly selected and lacking in more areas than the Wallabies. Haven't seen the exact fixture list, but wouldn't put it past them to take a Test off the Blacks at home, although think that Oz might struggle away against a full-strength Puma pack.


When you say SA, do you mean South Africa?

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 10:51 pm

good memory fa...the try from the end of the world to boot...saint andre igniting it
If theres a better try vs the ABs than Edwards in 73, this is surely it. Incredible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTwTi-UeQ7s


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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 10:51 pm

Yes, I was guilty of B&I-centric behaviour in omitting that '94 series win by the French. Absolutely huge result; something of a springboard for the next three or four years for Les Bleus, who were more than a bit unlucky to lose to SA in the following year's RWC semi. Would have given them a shot against the All Blacks in that final, with or without "food poisoning".

France then went on to beat England 4 times on the spin, having failed to do so for about seven years up to then, and win back to back Slams in the late 90s. That win in NZ was the catalyst for all that good form; the kind of thing that I would like to see flow from the results of this group of Lions.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 10:53 pm

Yes, Laurie. Sorry, trying to shorten everything to the nth degree. Boks it is.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 10:56 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:Yes, Laurie. Sorry, trying to shorten everything to the nth degree. Boks it is.

Cant se it myself.

But at to whether this result is significant, then I would say yes but only to Wales.

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Post by fa0019 on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 10:57 pm

If SA get a full strength side out I think the word beware comes to mind.
When a full strength bok pack weighs in at 930kg+ and still has good mobility then the rets of the world better take notice.

Hibbard vs Bismarck will be massive in the autumn.. Bismarck will have noted his progress, he wants his title back.
I wonder what the butchers bill will be like after that game.... The extra ice is already on order.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:01 pm


I just find it amazing that someone could watch that game less than 24 hours ago, and in almost the same breath say that they expect Australia to beat South Africa, I must be missing something.

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Post by fa0019 on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:02 pm

The French in the mid 90s was a odd one... Smashed by England at twickenham in 95 5N but were very very impressive in the World Cup. Far from a complete team, they lacked mental toughness but the skill was there and if I recall they had a simply awesome backrow.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:03 pm

You may be right with your first point, Laurie, although I suspect that there may be a bit of a backlash to come from the Wallabies. Don't really agree with your second observation, though - the experience of being a part of a successful side will also feed through for the Irish, English and, admittedly to a lesser degree, the Scottish lads as well. Worth remembering, I think that in this era of the 23-man team, there were 7 Englishmen that got onto the field in Sydney, for example.

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Post by fa0019 on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:04 pm

AUS do have the number on SA, have done for the last 4 years... 7 wins from 9 matches... I think a lot of teams will approach AUS in this way though... Smash the doors in, see if they can deal with the pressure.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:07 pm

I also saw the Boks play Scotland, a Scotland ruined by injuries what's more, in a game that they richly deserved to lose. I think that the Boks are currently short of speed of foot and thought as currently selected in their outside backs, and I query whether they will run through the Aussies up front as effectively as the Lions did. After all, the Boks couldn't put much of a dent into the Scottish front row until pretty late in the piece.

See every reason to imagine the Wallabies beating the Boks on current form.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:09 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I just find it amazing that someone could watch that game less than 24 hours ago, and in almost the same breath say that they expect Australia to beat South Africa, I must be missing something.
especially when watching the last Bok test vs Samoa. Mind you, SA are just as jekyll and hydee...Scotland had them for a minute there a week before. We werent so far ahead vs France either.

It is obvious Deans has to go though....and that lone wolf quade will be lining up vs quick draw Mccaw for yet another gun-down this year.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:12 pm

My take on South Africa is that the Bok team we see this year will be the best Bok team for the last 5 years.

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Post by fa0019 on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:12 pm

No Fourie or steyn in the midfield who both will return for the rwc. Van zyl and goosen partnership at halfbacks could be a partnership people talk about for generations in the future... They both have that level of potential.

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Post by captain carrantuohil on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:15 pm

If you're right, they will be hugely formidable, no question. I shall withold agreement or otherwise with you until I've seen the evidence with my own eyes. They'll certainly want to be better than I saw during the NH autumn or the recent match v Scotland to earn that sort of approval rating from me.

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Post by fa0019 on Sat 06 Jul 2013, 11:22 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote: My take on South Africa is that the Bok team we see this year will be the best Bok team for the last 5 years.

 I think it's a little premature... But only because of injuries to key players for the rest of the season.  Come the rwc the team will be frightening, captained by Bismarck (my own theory of how it will go).

Oosthuizen, Bismarck, Malherbe, Eztebeth, Du Toit, Louw, Burger (I fancy one last swan song for burger) Alberts, van Zyl, Goosen, hougaard, steyn, Fourie, Pieterson, Le roux. That's a bok pack straight out the danie craven handbook.

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Post by Biltong on Sun 07 Jul 2013, 6:24 am

To under estimate South Africa is never a good thing, the team is still without a lot of their best players. Currently the Bok team is going through a growth spurt not seen in Bok rugby for years.

The number of new caps over the past 18 months meant a lot of youngsters have been given opportunities, and with that as come mixed performances.

You had disappointing performances like the draw against England, draw against Argentina and the poor win against Scotland, but then you also had SA have NZ in trouble in NZ, beating Australia soundly in SA, beating Samoa comfortably etc.

It is all signs of a coach finding a new team and tactics not being executed well and consistently.

But what you are missing is what Meyer is building, Coenie Oosthuizen, Pat Cilliers, Frans Malherbe, Trevor Nyakane, Pieter Stef du Toit, Eben Etzebeth, Arno Botha, Marcell Coetzee, Siya Kolisi, Piet v Zyl, Johan Goosen, Jan Serfontein, JJ Engelbrecht, Willie le Roux, Jaco Taute, Raymond Rhule , these are all youngsters that has been tried and tested, I ay even have missed a few, but come RWC 2015 his aim is that these guys will all have some experience.

The pace in this back line is frightening, these back line players aren't bish bash bosh players, they have vision, skill and oodles of pace.

They still lack experience, but if you care to underestimate them, do so at your own peril. Wink 
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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 07 Jul 2013, 7:28 am

mawhis wrote:
John Cregan wrote:Lions not important in the grand scheme of things IMO. A bit like the Ryder Cup in Golf, a great spectacle, a novelty, but when the history books are written, it's all about club and country for me.............................

This.

You also have to factor in the fact that the aussies had a lengthy injury list, and were the better team (in my opinion) in the first 2 tests. The number of Australian players injured in the first test alone was ridiculous - I can't remember the last time I saw 2 players stretchered off in the same game.  If Leali'ifano had lasted through the first test to take the kicks at goal, the aussies would have already have won the series in the first 2 tests.

It was certainly a good result, but there was a fair amount of luck involved. Full strength NZ or SA teams, (or even a full strength aussie team) won't be nearly as easy.

Please.

Do not go down the Australia had a lot of injury's route. You can only play what is in front of you The LIONS PLAYED WHAT WAS IN FRONT OF THEM AND WON.

You could be write that if Leafano had not gone off injured in the first test Australia may have won the series... but we will never know will we,

This was a good win not only for the NH. But also for the Brand of the Lions. If the Lions had lost the series i think a lot of rugby fans would of been asking the question, is the Lions worth it.

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Post by fa0019 on Sun 07 Jul 2013, 8:19 am

Injury list or not... The lions had O'Connell, ferris, Healy, Jenkins, Hartley, Morgan, wilkinson etc out too either due to injury, just back from injury so not considered or bans.

Winning in someone's back yard is not to be sniffed at... The matches were tight but winning sides don't play well every game... Yet they find a way to win... Thats how England won the World Cup in 03, how the boks won the 2nd lions test in 09, how NZ won the rwc in 11.

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Post by Fergus on Sun 07 Jul 2013, 8:25 am

To me the ENG win in the 03 WC final pips the Lions series win.....

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Post by blackcanelion on Sun 07 Jul 2013, 8:49 am

It's one of those subjective questions isn't it.

A big win, with some running rugby in Australia. Only time will tell for me.

Significant recent wins against the all blacks would be:

England's win over NZ last year
England's win against the AB's in 2007 World Cup quaterfinal final
England's win over NZ in NZ in 2003.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 07 Jul 2013, 9:31 am

blackcanelion wrote:England's win against the AB's in 2007 World Cup quaterfinal final

That would be France. A win over the All Blacks at the World Cup is still unchartered territory for us.

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